Talk:Four stars above Uruguay's football crest

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Biased information on Uruguayan titles.
Hello, English Wikipedia community. I just finished redoing this same article, but from the Spanish Wikipedia. This version has a lot of bias from Uruguayans who are convinced that their team won four FIFA World Cups. It's disputed, I get it, but this version has 23 references to a book that supports said version (Fútbol Mundial: los archivos de 1924 — Pierre Arrighi), while the number of times FIFA denied that Uruguay had 2 world titles is not mentioned here. I don't want to say that the Uruguayan version is not correct in some parts, but it's that here it does not give rise to the debate that exists in reality. FIFA doesn't recognize the four world titles, and it's not a bias, there is a whole section that I just finished in the article in Spanish. I will post this notice because I don't know if the English community is aware of this article.


 * Example #1: This article mentions that FIFA accepted the four Uruguayan titles when they decided not to remove the four stars from their jersey (The 2021 incident with Puma and FIFA retracts a request to remove two stars). The real reason why there were four stars on the shirt is that FIFA did not give an official statement, this was confirmed by the vice president (Gastón Tealdi) of the Uruguayan Football Association (AUF): "[Gianni Infantino's secretary] confirmed to us that until anything official arrives we won't change anything on the shirt. From FIFA they told us not to give more importance to the issue if there is no official communication". November 24, 2022.
 * Example #2: According to the introduction of this article, FIFA recognizes the titles, but... — Source #1, Joseph Blatter said in 2004 that the 1924 and 1928 titles were not world championships. / Source #2, FIFA made a chart in December 2022, and Uruguay is represented with two stars. / Source #3, During the celebration of the 120th anniversary of the AUF, FIFA said that Uruguay won the world championship (of that time) in 1924 and 1928. The Uruguayan media thought that this meant that now their titles were recognized, but FIFA automatically clarified the situation and said that in 1950 they won their second world title. Alternative Pain (talk) 04:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * FIFA has never denied that Uruguay won 4 World championships. That should be the reason why you did not find such a quote 167.60.88.251 (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi. Recent update. FIFA has officially (finally) recognized Uruguay's 4 world titles in this detailed article published a few months ago. Lastly, Sepp Blatter's views on the issue does not supplant what FIFA has (documented) to have established since the 1920s. FIFA's newest article reads: "Their open-for-all nature, colluding with the recognition of FIFA and several other football associations, provided legitimacy to the competitions and, thus, contested Garrido and Uruguay, could be classified as world championships. FIFA accepted the argument and approved Uruguay’s request to display four stars above their badge, which, despite minor obstacles along the way, they have done across five World Cups - 2002, 2010, 2014, 2018, and 2022."

I believe that makes FIFA very clear on the issues.
 * https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/the-stars-that-adorn-la-celeste-why-uruguay-display-four-flourishes-on-their 174.90.83.210 (talk) 19:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * One thing to note is some personal interpretations in the recent edits. For example, there is no mention anywhere that FIFA bowed out of the conversation due to "lack of interest." The reason why this particular FIFA administration's attempt fell short is because this is a well documented issue. Uruguay are allowed to wear 4 stars because they are 4 time FIFA recognized world champions.174.90.83.210 (talk) 19:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Offical!!!
100% Uruguay has 4 world championships… facts & absolutes 2406:2D40:4090:A810:C49D:73D2:514E:D032 (talk) 23:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is correct. Moreover, the FIFA Museum has openly recognized this as well. Although, the article below is the clearest declaration they have made since formally accepting the 4 stars in the 1990s. https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/the-stars-that-adorn-la-celeste-why-uruguay-display-four-flourishes-on-theirFutbolLeyenda (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

A response to user: Alternative Pain
To begin, thank you for taking the time to review this article and offer your input. I had a few comments to make some of it.

Firstly, I am not Uruguayan. I am a Canadian and I'm working on dissertation on the history of football in Latin America.
 * 1) 1. Alternative Pain wrote: "This version has a lot of bias from Uruguayans who are convinced that their team won four FIFA World Cups."


 * 1) 2. Alternative Pain wrote: "It's disputed, I get it, but this version has 23 references to a book that supports said version (Fútbol Mundial: los archivos de 1924 — Pierre Arrighi)."

I understand the concern of having a few sources that support a stance in favour of the 4 stars. Unfortunately, not much has been published on the history of this issue. One thing to note is that Pierre Arrighi’s research is not opinion based. Everything he presents in his books are just recaps of official FIFA documetns and other archived media of the time. It's the best source to see all the evidence put together, so of course it was going to be heavily used.

However, if having 1 source be overused is an issue, this can fixed as everything Arrighi published is backed up by another source. I will be fixing the citations in a future edit.


 * 1) 2. Alternative Pain wrote: "While the number of times FIFA denied that Uruguay had 2 world titles is not mentioned here."

Again, please provide the sources for these numerous times that FIFA denied that Uruguay had 4 world titles. It’s also important to note that “FIFA” is not one longstanding organization. There have been different political groups with different political agendas in different eras. Moreover, there is ample evidence of the restructuring of football history that directly contradicts what previous FIFA administrations had published. Therefore, Sepp Blatter's attempts to present an alternative history is in now way a definitive stance on this issue. In fact, FIFA's most recent publication directly contradicts everything Blatter asked to publish about the status of the 1924 and 1928 Olympic games.


 * 1) 3. Alternative Pain wrote: "FIFA doesn't recognize the four world titles, and it's not a bias, there is a whole section that I just finished in the article in Spanish."

FIFA has recently published another (of several) articles where they openly recognize Uruguay’s 4 world titles. This is itself (not to mention the nearly 100 years worth of primary FIFA documents) is a definitive answer to your doubts.


 * 1) 4. Alternative Pain wrote: "Example #1: This article mentions that FIFA accepted the four Uruguayan titles when they decided not to remove the four stars from their jersey (The 2021 incident with Puma and FIFA retracts a request to remove two stars). The real reason why there were four stars on the shirt is that FIFA did not give an official statement, this was confirmed by the vice president (Gastón Tealdi) of the Uruguayan Football Association (AUF): "[Gianni Infantino's secretary] confirmed to us that until anything official arrives we won't change anything on the shirt. From FIFA they told us not to give more importance to the issue if there is no official communication".

This is in no way should be interpreted as FIFA disputing the status of the 4 stars. Essentially, Infantino decided to revert back to what previous FIFA administrations had openly accepted of Uruguay. They just dropped the issue. Moreover, you mention a "lack of interest". Again, this is conjecture and not supported by any evidence.


 * 1) 5. Alternative Pain wrote: "Example #2: According to the introduction of this article, FIFA recognizes the titles, but... — Source #1, Joseph Blatter said in 2004 that the 1924 and 1928 titles were not world championships. / Source #2, FIFA made a chart in December 2022, and Uruguay is represented with two stars. / Source #3, During the celebration of the 120th anniversary of the AUF, FIFA said that Uruguay won the world championship (of that time) in 1924 and 1928. The Uruguayan media thought that this meant that now their titles were recognized, but FIFA automatically clarified the situation and said that in 1950 they won their second world title. Alternative Pain (talk) 04:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)"

As previously mentioned, Sepp Blatter's attempts to publish a revision of history was met with heavy criticism by South American journalists. His 2004 publication directly contradicts what was published prior and after his involvement. Notwithstanding, he was still heavily criticized by South American historians.

Laslty, on the FIFA twitter posts you mentioned (in English and in Spanish) there is nothing showing that FIFA is contradicting the status of the 4 stars. For example, the English post mention specifically “FIFA World Cups ©", which is factually correct. In the Spanish tweet, FIFA (and Diario Olé) interchangeably uses the word “Mundial” to only mean “Post 1930 FIFA World Cups.” None of the references you posted deny Uruguay’s standing in any capacity. Diario Olé seems to be eager to interpret FIFA's message as a disqualification of Uruguay's titles. To FIFA, "Mundial" means the "FIFA World Cup" when posted in Spanish.

To conclude, the discussion has been made unnecessary after FIFA's most recent publication on this issue, openly recognizing the history behind Uruguay's valid 4 world titles. FutbolLeyenda (talk) 00:09, 11 January 2024 (UTC)