Talk:Fragging

Fragging in Vietnam
Did fragging incidents actually occur in Vietnam? I've heard that they were more myth than reality.

Read The Collapse of the Armed Forces, an article from the Armed Forces Journal. Figures from here show about a 1000.

By this way, I think we need a disambiguation page here. Fragging someone in a computer game is not as serious as fragging someone in the delta. We need two different articles. --Tphcm 03:47, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Much less they say the unfriendly commander was given three warnings, but the article only spells out two.

Who says there have been two instances of fragging in Iraq so far? How come no one has ever heard about it?

P.S. Yes, I know, if it is verified the conservative-echo-chambe-media is why no one has heard about it, but I haven't heard it anywhere including the internet. Maprovonsha172 9 July 2005 03:53 (UTC)


 * Looky here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14150285/

Most of the links no longer work. During the Vietnam War there were numerous anecdotes of imaginative fraggings involving elaborate booby traps in unexpected locations and/or high ranking officers. There were anecdotes of (unidentified) Majors and Colonels being fragged, and under circumstances that would leave little doubt that they were killed by some of their own troops, but subsequent research did not produce even one such incident. It is probable that most of the stories were fictitious, invented to amuse or embolden disgruntle soldiers, or maybe intimidate unpopular officers. Sussmanbern (talk) 20:54, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

UCMJ
What would fragging be considered legally? Mutiny? In the event that someone was convicted, what would the penalty be? Execution? JesseG 02:51, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Historically
Perhaps a history of incidents that occured before the term "frag" was coined should be added. There is a reference to an artillery shell put under the bed of Braxton Bragg, and I am sure more would be found with a little research.

p.s. Just cuz your holy Internet doesn't have info on frags in Iraq, means nothing, the majority of our stories there have yet to be told. Tortuga 16:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not encyclopedic, and third hand evidence, but my English teacher has a habit of going off on tangents to explain things, and according to interviews he held with his grandfather, in WW1 the grandfather's squad in the trenches received a new officer who in the interests of attaining person glory ordered them to go over the top. This was met with incredulous silence, until one of the men pulled out his pistol and blew the man's brains out - and seemingly kept quiet about it until this interview with his grandson. Shows that it's been going on far earlier than vietnam at least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.60.150 (talk) 10:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Kinda agree, the term "frag" is definitely much more modern, but killing unpopular leaders was definitely common in history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.103.172 (talk) 13:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

On the WW One incident mentioned in the text, what I have found is the case of Benjamin De Fehr who was executed in 1916 for mudering his Regimental Sergeant-Major James R. Scott by shooting him in the back.. Though called a fragging, it did not involve the use of a grenade. Kuitan (talk) 13:59, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Iraq 2005
Fragging: in the 'conservative echo chamber' of mainstream news media. That airhead doesn't even know that the mainstream media is liberal-biased aka NY Times, CBS, AP, CNN, MSNBC. ..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8246860

In the military, these officers are commonly referred to as a**hole*. Nothing new here except an awareness that some arses are never clued in to the fact that there is life and death involved in the arena of their stupidity -- it is only appropriate that they be reminded at the level of their awareness. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

Lebanon 2006
Changed the language - it hasn't been confirmed yet that Israel deliberately shelled U.N posts. Also, whoever added that sentence needs to avail themselves of a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary.
 * I removed the claim, deliberate or not I do not think it qualifies as Fraging.--Anss123 11:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The use of the word "murder" in the context of eliminating a dangerous officer does not meet Wikipedia's NPOV guidelines. Fragging may, at times, be a highly commendable and brave action.


 * Of course it is murder. Killing someone in a premeditated, non-judicial way is what constituates murder, and this is a blatant occurance of that very act. That it might garner support among the troops takes nothing away from that. --193.11.220.45 23:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Would wikipedia describe generic killing in war as murder too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.165.20 (talk) 07:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Iraq
I removed from the article references to Hasan Akbar and Alberto Martinez. Akbar's crimes do not fit fragging as described in the rest of the article. Also, the link to Martinez links to a drug lord, so I'm assuming it is not the same person. No references were cited.

Matt the heathen 64.42.209.81 17:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Pat Tillman
Just because a blowhard like Chris Matthews suggests Pat Tillman was fragged does not mean his death should be added to the list of incidents. All we have is suspicion at this point. The Tillman reference should only be under popular culture.

--76.173.72.21 05:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Harpers Ferry 1862
During the 1862 siege of Harpers Ferry during the Antietam Campaign of the American Civil War, the Harpers Ferry garrison commander, Col. Dixon Miles, was mortally wounded by a shell believed to have been deliberately fired by his own men. I think this is the first known case of fragging in an American army. Jsc1973 04:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a claim by one historian, but the official version is a little more forgiving. I'd want something more than supposition, I think, to include such an event. --Dhartung | Talk 05:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Full Metal Jacket
Does Gomer Pyle shooting Hartman really count as a fragging, though? I mean, Gomer was more or less mentally deficient at the time, and would probably have shot anyone else that entered the room, up to the prsident or the pope, or indeed himself if no-one had arrived. Not really the deliberate murder of an higher-rank that the article seems to describe otherwise.213.113.252.120 (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)  I disagree, the Sgt had been abusive to Gomer to the point where Gomer was suicidally depressed. Sussmanbern (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Iraq 2009 Camp Liberty
I really don't think we need to have this incident listed at the moment. From the news reports so far, the guy seems to have just snapped and gone on a rampage. While he may have been taunted or disenfranchised by senior officers in the clinic, from the looks of it so far, this is a solo act. The description of fragging seems to suggest premeditation on the part of several soldiers, not a one man rampage. I've added "motive unknown" next to this entry for now, but as more information comes out, I suspect that deleting it will be the best course of action.

The3stars (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely correct. This was not a fragging; it was someone going postal and killing his fellow soldiers, not his CO. I've removed it.
 * Ron (talk) 04:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

straight dope
This article cites sources on fragging studies: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2877/did-soldiers-really-frag-officers-in-vietnam Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Only superior officers?
Does the term "fragging", in current parlance, only refer to the murder of superiors, or could the term refer to the murder of an unpopular grunt? In today's Daily Dish, Andrew Sullivan publishes a letter from a career military man in which it is claimed that an out-of-the closet homosexual soldier is likely, in many cases, to be "fragged" due to his sexuality (this is part of an ongoing debate on DADT). Sullivan, not that familiar with US military culture, mistook "fragging" to be a synonym for hazing, and suggested that banning DADT would permit a soldier so "fragged" to report it up the chain of command without fear of discharge from the military. After numerous readers corrected Sullivan, noting that to be fragged is to be killed, he posted a correction, and linked to this article.

The use of "fragged" in this conversation was not in the context of a superior officer, but of an unpopular platoon-mate.

Comments?

--192.65.41.20 (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

An interesting question. I have always assumed the term to refer to eliminating an unpopular officer or NCO, one who would have authority over you; and also that said act would occur during a time of war. A superior could endanger you by ordering you to perform some hazardous duty, or even volunteer the unit for a dangerous mission; killing him would eliminate this and perhaps serve as a warning to the replacement. An unpopular platoon-mate, whether gay or otherwise, would have no such authority. Usually, he would be dealt with by less than lethal means, perhaps a blanket party where he would be held down under a blanket while others beat on him. Could even be a straight out fight. And there are other means of dealing with someone you don't like, various forms of harassment or hazing.

Since soldiers are also human beings, and human beings have killed one another since time immemorial, I am sure there are times when one soldier has been pissed off enough by another's actions, real or imagined, to kill the supposed offender. But I don't think that really constitutes fragging. Wschart (talk) 01:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Animal House
It's been a long time since I've seen the film Animal House. What relevance does it have to this article?192.234.13.58 (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

At the very end of Animal House we are told of the eventual fate of several characters: Bluto becomes a US Senator; the snobbish frat boy becomes a Nixon White House aide and then is raped in prison; and the ROTC bully is killed in Vietnam - by his own men. Sussmanbern (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Tone of the article
This is a remarkably candid article that acknowledges murders occurring in the battlefield among a country's service men and women. What this piece lacks is any sort of official response on the part of the military about these incidents. It's very much a one-sided article.

The article seems to rationalize and normalize this behavior and the lack of hearing what the military's stance is on this makes it seems like it's an unfortunate but accepted practice (when this clearly can't be their official position).

It would also help to know if this practice happens in armed forces of other countries and whether it's more common in countries where this is obligatory military service (a draft) vs. countries with voluntary military service. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 03:04, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I do not agree that the article encourages murder. It should however be rewritten to improve grammar and logical structure.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Added Content
I'm just going to add some new content about fragging incidents. I think there could be more content on the history of fragging and some contemporary developments. Let me know what you guys think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:XXFireandIceXx/sandbox

Roman comparison?
Is it really appropriate to compare the lack of repercussions to the decimation of Roman legions? It seems completely out of place, no relevance to the article at all. It implies Roman punishments worked and that they would have worked in a similar way if applied to the US army, which is all conjecture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rottint (talk • contribs) 17:16, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Citation needed for Roman crucifixion
The current version contains the following sentence under the "Motivation" heading:

"Unlike the Roman tradition of crucifying entire legions for disobedience or cowardice, swift administrative responses were ineffective at eradicating the source of the discontent."

Although I'm not exactly opposed to the use, no citation accompanied this assertion. I think that in order to be used, a source needs to be found that 1) indicates Roman crucifixion was effective, and 2) that the "swift administrative responses" used by modern armies were ineffective in comparison. Also, I think that using such an evocative and emotionally-charged image as crucifixion might be problematic. Could another, more contemporary example be more appropriate and serve the same function? Or is this section fine as-is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.171.105.217 (talk) 18:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Decimation was the killing of 1 in 10. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:19, 14 February 2015 (UTC).


 * I chopped this because it has no source. And decimation historically could be anywhere between 1 in 5 and 1 in 100, despite the name. Ashmoo (talk) 11:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Examples
Not terribly happy with the examples. Some, many or all don't seem to fit the definition. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:19, 14 February 2015 (UTC).

Length, clarity and sources
This article is a bit of a mess to be honest. One it has a lot of repetition, two it is never clear as to what fragging actually entails. That is, is it only superior offices, as other commenters have asked? The opening article definition doesn't state that it is murdering members of one's own fighting units, which is a part of the definition, isn't it? And does it only include secretive murder, or does any intra-unit killing count, such as overt shooting sprees? And thirdly, a lot of it has no sources at all and some of it seems to repeat common myths about the military. I'm going to go through and clean up the worst. Please comment here if you disagree with my edits. Ashmoo (talk) 11:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

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Fort hood shootings & definition of frag
I was surprised to find that the Fort Hood shootings were never added to the list of incidents (or even discussed) despite the 2009 Fort Hood shooting being listed in the "see also section". According to the definition given in the lead, fragging is not necessarily specifically done with a fragmentation grenade - "The term fragging is now often used to encompass any means used to deliberately and directly cause the death of military colleagues." so only reason I can think of is for not to including it is that it may not fall into the strictest definition of the word. I don't have access to the source in the lead, but most dictionaries that I do have access to (listed below) define it as being with a grenade or similar explosive device. However, Webster’s New World College Dictionary says "esp. with a hand grenade" implying not necessarily so (wiktionary.org & educalingo.com don't mention grenade at all, but not sure if they count for anything). Encyclopedia.com cites "The Oxford Companion to American Military History" which says "...A broader definition encompasses murder by a variety of other means, including mines, shooting, and hit and run with a vehicle..." (which I looked up and will add to the article). If only examples that fall into the strict definition are being included, several of the examples should also be removed, if not, I don't see any reason that the Fort Hood shootings shouldn't be added.

List of definitions:

"to kill or wound (a fellow soldier or superior officer) deliberately with an explosive device." - Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 2014

"to intentionally kill or wound (one's superior officer, etc.), esp. with a hand grenade." - Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 2014

"To wound or kill (a fellow soldier) by throwing a grenade or similar explosive at the victim" - American Heritage® Dictionary 2016

"to deliberately injure or kill (one's military leader) by means of a fragmentation grenade" - Merriam Webster

"Deliberately kill (an unpopular senior officer) with a hand grenade." - lexico.com Powered by Oxford

"kill with a grenade" - [https://public.oed.com/blog/words-from-the-1960s Ayto, John. "Words from the 1960s". public.oed.com].

Fragging is a term first encountered during the latter years of the Vietnam War. It refers to the killing of officers and noncommissioned officers using fragmentation hand grenades, often thrown into a sleeping area at night. A broader definition encompasses murder by a variety of other means, including mines, shooting, and hit and run with a vehicle. - The Oxford Companion to American Military History, Oxford University Press 1999 & encyclopedia.com Yaakovaryeh (talk) 22:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

"FARG-HE" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect FARG-HE. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 21 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)