Talk:Frances the Mute

Untitled
This page was proposed for deletion December 2004. The archived discussion is available at Votes for deletion/Frances the Mute.

The first paragraph
"The cover is a direct reference to part of Pink Floyd's Publius Enigma riddle; in one image, a puzzle piece printed with the red-hooded men in cars (from their song "High Hopes") sits on a hill. It is unlikely that this was done intentionally by the band." This makes no sense to me. How could the cover unintentionally be a direct reference? Optrirominiluikus (talk) 19:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Cassandra Gemini
Does anyone have the quote from Jon or Juan stating that most of Cassandra was the reult from a jam they did? Becuase this would disprove the theory that the entire thing was written by Omar. Arranged, but not written.

The Something Awful review
The Something Awful review has been removed, with the editor claiming it's because SA is a humour site, not a music review site. As far as I'm concerned, that's a rubbish argument. The piece is quite clearly a review, and it seems to me that the editor was just offended by the prospect of a negative review. So I'm reinstating it. If the editor wants to provide a cohesive argument as to why the review shouldn't be included, then he can do so here. --Hn 07:22, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not horribly averse to including the link to the Something Awful review, but I'm sure you would agree that SA is not a professional music review site. See: here. --Dalkaen 15:40, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Something Awful writes music reviews as negative as possible in order to get over zelous fans to respond with hate mail which they could later use for another comedy update. Their reviews are not real nor professional.


 * Something Awful writes these reviews purely for humour. They aren't serious. That guy may not like the album, but the way he wrote the review was purely intended for humour.

It seems that "Yahoo Music" were inspired by senseless humour as well, when they came to the following contradictory conclusion: "An incredibly accomplished record, a true testament to the band’s imagination, intellectual curiosity and outrageous musical talent.... Unfortunately, 'Frances The Mute' is also awful." --lmaxmai (talk) 12:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Geminni or Gemini?
The album lists the final track(s) as Cassandra Geminni and not Gemini. Is this a mere mistake or should the spelling be changed in the article?
 * Yeah, the album was misprinted. The Mars Volta official site lists it with the proper spelling, and Music Brainz, an mp3 tagging site, has this annotation for its listing of Frances the Mute: "Casandra Gemini is misspelled on the CD. Check the Mars Volta site for the official track listing to see that it is, in fact, spelled 'Gemini.'" --Dalkaen 11:23, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Tracklist dispute
Cassandra Gemini is over 30 minutes long, so the tracklist that the anonymous user keeps adding is impossible. Miranda That Ghost Isn't Holy Anymore is composed of multiple movements, yes, but so is Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus. They're not separated into different tracks, and Cassandra Gemini wouldn't have been either, but they had to to avoid the album being classified as an EP. --Dalkaen 22:43, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * when i played FtM on windows media play it gave me an incorrect track list, where the widow was listed as track 7 or something. i knew it was wrong, but other people might not. could be the cause of the confusion. Nateji77 13:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * the track listing that I keep adding is the one listed on the CD that I have, as it appears when the disc is read. I know they split the cd up to avoid being screwed by the record company, but why not have the track list as it literally appears on the cd? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.1.220.130 (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

The whole point is that the Tracklist on the back of the CD does not correspond to the actual divisions. In addition the names that show up when you put them in a computer are completely wrong altogether. Nothing else needs to be added. Zopwx2 01:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC) I deleted the paragraph stating that Miranda has only one movement and that the other three listed on the back of the CD belong on Cassandra Gemini because that statement was purely conjecture and based on faulty logic. It is far more likely that those four movement do indeed belong to Miranda based on the evidence that the song actually contains four clear movements: 1. Coqui frogs 2. The meat of the song. 3. The trumpet solo section. 4. Con Safo, which is literally a repetition of the "Con Safo" movement that ends Vismund Cygnus. And also based on the evidence that the CD case itself has these four movements listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:5B0:27FF:EF0:0:0:0:3C (talk) 03:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Removed original research
The following information was littering this page, and had grown into a number of other character articles even though there's plenty of room to include any confirmed character information on this page, rather than making permanent stubs. Moved here to clean up the page (and L'Via L'Viaquez). -Silence 21:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Fictional Characters
WARNING: the following is only a theory


 * Vismund Cygnus - Son of Frances The Mute
 * Miranda - Grandmother of Cygnus, Mother of Frances
 * L'Via L'Viaquez - Sister of Frances, Daughter of Miranda
 * Frances the Mute - Main Character

Article about concept, by Farseer RiZa  This album is truly a work of art. Not just musical, but it tells a heartbreaking story of a lost soul who's mother is killed in a horrific way. And if you have no idea what's going on in the story, you'll probably hate the album as I once did. It's fully of annoying ambiance, but if you read through this then listen to the album, you can almost feel the story come to live in the ambiance. The Mars Volta are lyrical and emotional geniuses. This is the future of music!

Frances The Mute Below is the last few words on the Frances The Mute (the song) and it obviously is talking about Frances being killed, and how she is killed. She is gutted and hung by her ankles and her entrails are cut out, they remove her unborn child...

''Set foot inside a parlour, to find her drunken by receipts,

He held her by the ankles,

Gutted at the nave, yes gutted and depraves,

He tied a rope around her legs,

And let her hang for seven days,

This never happened, but I saw you leave,

And crawl into a bed of broken windows.

'' The first song is mainly about his mothers death, but note: The soft sounding introduction at the end of the song. Notice that it seems not quite complete or clear, this is a metaphor for Cygnus' blindness, he doesn't see what he's getting himself into as he pursues his mother's murderers.

'''Cygnus.... Vismund Cygnus''' Cygus is the lead character of the story, he is the unborn child who has now grown up and has a thrust for revenge. He starts to track down the murderers who gutted his mother, but along the way he gives up hope and starts using drugs to escape from reality, you can hear this at (0:39) in the song as a large outburst of music. The lyrics that are Spanish in this song talk about him wanting to punish who did this, but his inability to do so whilst so dependant on drugs.

The Widow This song is about the severity of his drug addiction and his dependence on his dealer. He resorts to prostitution to fuel his drug habit. He contracts a STD (Not sure if it's from the needles or the prostitution). In the lyrics below he is obviously talking about his dealer (verse 1 & 2) and the last verse is about his prostitution.

''He's got fasting black lungs,

Made of clove splintered shards,

They're the kind that will talk,

Through a wheezing of coughs,

And I hear him every night,

In every pore,

And every time he just makes me warm,

Freeze without an answer,

Free from all the shame,

Must I hide?

Cause I'll never,

Never sleep alone.''

L'via L'viaquez L'via L'viaquez, Who is Cygnus' aunt, L'via being her first name... L'via was there when his mother was murdered. She tells the story to him. However, she is soon killed by the same group who killed his mother for telling Cygnus about the group. Also, in this song is Cygnus's grandmother who is called Miranda. She also tells him of his mother and where to find the people who killed her.

L'Via, daughter of Miranda, your last name has changed (itself).

L'Via, without eyes you want to give me a story without my mother.

I only have to tell you the pain at night says...

Only the dress was left (The dress was left by itself/alone)* I washed the blood off.

L'Via, don't stop resting. In the streets you walk, ¿Who will follow you? (¿Who will chase you?)**

L'Via, they want to kill you. Machete teeth, rooster head. (You lie... of machete)***

L'Via, sleeping, you enter. Open your eyes, everything will change.

L'Via, dreaming of revenge I swear, they will pay.

(English)

I only have one hour, and I sleep, finished.

For 25 years past, the bodies here remain, trembling.

I ate the blood, I ate the body.

My tears. I break the mirror.

Note: The Spanish used in the song is not "proper," many words and constructions are used incorrectly, often as if they were literal translations of an English phrase brought into Spanish by someone who does not know the language. However, the resulting lyrics carry subtle meanings, and are open to more interpretation than if they were written in perfectly grammatical Spanish. Some parts of the song cannot be heard clearly, the segments in parentheses are alternative meanings.


 * "Solo se quedo el vestido" means "Only the dress was left," but it is also a poetic form equivalent to English "Alone, the dress was left behind."
 * "Persegir" means to chase, hunt, or follow ("segir").
 * On the album, the first word is either "mientes" or "dientes." The former means "you lie," the latter means "teeth." The second part says "de machete," which means "of machete."

Cassandra Geminni A, B, C, D & E The last song, Cassandra Geminni is about his revenge, and boy does he get revenge... People have speculated that Cassandra a name of his mother's & aunt's murderer, if not the leader of the group that killed them. There are 25 all together and he kills them all using his “icepick” (penis): He infects them all with the STD he picked up from when he was a prostitute, most likely by sleeping with them all. (As Cassandra is a girl's name).

However, the songs mood soon changes in part D where he figures out what he's actually done. All this time he's been searching for a family, somewhere to call home and it was in front of him the whole time. His aunt and her side of the family were perfectly fine before Cygnus started his quest. As a result of his meddling he got them all killed. The song ends with his loneliness. This is represented by the last song's repartition of the broken up introduction to the album (Which was at the end of Frances The Mute). However, the introduction is now clear, without distortion. This is a metaphor for how Cygnus feels. Lost and alone, but he sees what he has done now.

If anyone else has any theory's about this album, please speak up! E-mail me at: [farseerrirza@hotmail.co.uk]

Frances The Mute (Character)
Frances the Mute is a character from the 2005 album by The Mars Volta of the same name. Frances is the mother of Vismund Cygnus, who was born as Frances was killed by L'Via, her sister. Some think that Frances is names "The Mute" as a reference to her being dead and unable to "speak" with anyone, yet still leaving behind a story of her own.

Vismund Cygnus
Vismund Cygnus is a character in the story of The Mars Volta's 2005 album, Frances The Mute.

WARNING: the following is only a theory

MIRANDA (mother of Frances                             and L'Via, grandmother                                   of Cygnus) .                                      .                        FRANCES. . .  .  .  L'VIA L'VIAQUEZ (daughter of             (daughter of                       Miranda,sister             Miranda, sister of L'Via,                 of Frances)                                       mother of                         Cygnus) .                          .                                VISMUND CYGNUS (son of Frances,                     grandson of                       Miranda)

The song that bonds the closest with Vismund Cygnus is 'Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus'.

See the lyrics here.

Miranda (mother of Frances)
Miranda is the grandmother of Vismund Cygnus, and mother of L'Via L'Viaquez and Frances (the Mute) in The Mars Volta's 2005 album "Frances the Mute." The fourth track on the album centers around Vismund Cygnus receiving a message from Miranda about his mother and those who killed her.

Intended vs CD tracklisting
I was under the impression that the tracklisting which has eight Cassandra movements is the intended and that the tracklisting that has four Miranda movements and eight Cassandra is the iTunes version. See, the CD actually didn't list and tracknames. All we really know is that there are five real songs: Cygnus...Vismud Cygnus, The Widow, L'via L'viaquez, Miranda that ghost just isn't holy anymore, and Cassandra Geminni The important this is that it's widely accepted that Cassandra starts on "Pour Another Icepick" So... change needed?

 The start of that thread is what is said on the wiki, but reading further sounds off for mods and fans alike that the aforementioned way is the right one.


 * I'm sorry, but my CD has Miranda... divided into 4 tracks, and Cassandra Gemini into 5. They're labelled exactly as appears on the back of the CD case. The first three songs are each on their own track, for a total of 12. Perhaps the discrepancy is due to differing versions of the album being released in multiple regions? I'm in the US (and I purchased my album here). BlackTerror 03:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * that's fine and good, but if you actually listen to the cd, you can hear there's a sharp change of pace and momentum when you switch between trakck 4 and track 5. Whereas tracks 5-12 flow togeather smoothly. Miranda actually sounds vaguely incomplete, as a guitar line appears in the lead out of the song. User:Vespertilio

According to, the track listing on the CD is:
 * 1) Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus
 * 2) The Widow
 * 3) L'Via L'Viaquez
 * 4) Miranda, that ghost just isn't holy Anymore
 * 5) Cassandra Gemini I
 * 6) Cassandra Gemini II
 * 7) Cassandra Gemini III
 * 8) Cassandra Gemini IV
 * 9) Cassandra Gemini V
 * 10) Cassandra Gemini VI
 * 11) Cassandra Gemini VII
 * 12) Cassandra Gemini VIII

and the splitting of songs on the CD has nothing to do with movements. Cassandra Gemini is the only song that is split, and it is split into tracks 5-12. Ubern00b 20:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Has anyone tried to match the above tracklisting with the intended one, with 1-1 correspondence? Saying time X:XX to X:XX of track Y corresponds to intended track Z Part B would really help with the understandability of the issue.


 * There is no official word as to where exactly the movements begin and end.Zopwx2 22:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, but any unofficial attempts? - BlackTerror 01:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * sure, speculate all you want here:

Frances the Mute (the Song)
Does anyone have a citation for the idea of FtM the Song being the 'intended' first track of the album?

No, it's really just an inteoretatuib,


 * I just know its common knowledge on the comatorium boards that it was supposed to be the first track, even though I thought it worked better at the end. Zopwx2 13:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Go buy the issue of guitar world with Jimmy Page on the cover, there's an interview with Omar in it and he says it's supposed to open the album in the interview.


 * that's really weird, I agree with dude above^, I think it would sound great at the end after the crazy hectic-ness of C.G., I find it kind of a relaxing song overall. And Cygnus is just such an intense opener, it really starts things off perfectly, it would be hard to see it any other way.

Drug Use
I think the section where it says "Frances the Mute is the first album that Cedric and Omar have made sober." should be changed or taken out unless someone has some proof or a quote.

everyone knows they do drugs they even claimed that they improvised most of Acrobatic Tenement with ATD-I because they were so "loaded"

but i've also heard that they (cedric and omar) went clean after julio died im also looking out for the overall quality of wiki


 * I've read the same, although I would say 'clean' not 'sober' - at least in the UK you can't use sober to mean free from drugs, which is what they are. Personally, I don't object to unreferenced material if I know it is true. Damiancorrigan 21:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sober would also mean free from alcohol which I doubt they are --XMajinx 01:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

guys, the only said they quit HARD drugs, after jeremy died. omar has admitted to still smoking pot after he finishes his recordings to have some sort of other judgment or view on his material. cedric has been seen smoking pto with system of a down onstage before also. im pretty sure they write their songs high on weed or intoxicated on alchohol (cedric drank during the recordings of bedlam). so to say theyre off drugs would be wrong. they dont do heroin and shit anymore, but keep in mind, mars volta is a drug band, whether it be pot or alchohol, or anything else.66.25.12.225 (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Being paid for an EP?
Does anyone have a reference for the idea that they would have been paid for an EP if it had only had 5 tracks? Damiancorrigan 22:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The fact that this approach was also applied to the previous album, live album "Scabdates", which was and still is published by Universal, seems to confirm it. Both are lengthy albums, it thus seems fair that they made sure that they get paid accordingly. --lmaxmai (talk) 12:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Album Chronology
It was inconsistent, on some pages A Missing Chromosome is included, on some pages it wasn't. It is debatable whether AMC should be included, but I have taken the despotic decision to include it. Damiancorrigan 22:14, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Considering it was only distributed to radio stations I have a hard time leaving it in the offical album chronology. Zopwx2 08:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought about that, but Wikipedia is not a buyers' guide. The release exists, with full artwork and everything. The problem is that the AmC has an album box, and it links to Frances and Scabdates - so if you go back from AMC and forward from Frances, you got to different albums. At least now you don't do that. What else would you suggest, removing the album box from the AMC page? Damiancorrigan 10:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll just emphasize the fact that it isn't available to the public in the AMC article to avoid any confusion. Zopwx2 02:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

the story behind AMC is a lie, its not a sampler of rarities and b-sides given to radio stations. radio stations play singles, not songs on AMC. with that said, it is merely a compilation someone made and put a name on.66.25.12.225 (talk) 13:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Frances the Mute With Vinyl?
"The title track was released with the double album vinyl as a free bonus 12-inch single, as well as being a b-side on the single release of "The Widow."" ^^As far as I know this is untrue. I own the triple vinyl version and it is just the album by itself. If this is a different version or pressing (I know there was a four LP Box set including the album and the Frances the mute single, maybe that's it) please specify.
 * You're right dude, only the 4LP. edited accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.146.241.90 (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Cover art
This picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Enigmapuzzle.jpg) seems to directly relate to the cover art for this album. It is also by Storm Thorgerson, and it is represented as being part of his work with Pink Floyd. I do not know where the image comes from, but if it is a Pink Floyd-related composition, it surely predates this album. Any thoughts? --- Stephen Goldmeier |  Profile  |  Talk  |  (._.)  | 22:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * guess storm likes to recycle ideas. Zopwx2 02:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Enigmapuzzle.jpg
Image:Enigmapuzzle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 07:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What was James Ward in the process of completing?
The article says james ward was in the process of completing something at the time of his death but fails to specify what exactly. Also there's some references to the album being leaked by way of a vinyl version. If a vinyl version was released, then how would the album be leaked? It would be accessible. This article, and the first section in particular, need much clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.125.15 (talk) 08:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The story is supposedly that ward was completing the story started out in the diary himself, although no one is sure how true this whole repo man story and everything that follows is. The vinyl version was not released either at the time I think. Someone got hold of the vinyl, ripped a digital version and leaked it. Zopwx2 (talk) 01:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of pages
Why does the Cassandra and Miranda pages need to be deleted, as far as stated, they aren't stubs or anything, so i vote they stay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.180.92 (talk) 02:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * not deleted, just merged. There is no need for extra articles espeically if they weren't singles. Not to mention most of the content on those pages is original research or redundant information. Zopwx2 (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If they are merged fine, as long as the info stays, because last time this happen, the entire part about Cassandra geminni disapeared Rolodex0305 (talk) 12:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Miles Davis Reference
I have never heard of Miles Davis not allowing his musicians to hear one another while recording. This goes against the whole idea of Jazz - spontaneous interaction through listening to one another. This may have been the case later in his career, but I cannot find any sources. The only thing I can find similar at all is that when Davis recorded "Kind of Blue," he refused to allow his sidemen to hear or read through any of the tunes before the session to keep their performances inspired and original. It seems that a source should be cited here, as this is the kind of thing that spreads misinformation and leads to this misinformation being cited as fact. Lopez may indeed have forced his musicians to play to a metronome in a way that invokes the spirit of Davis' restrictions, but I cannot find any source that states that Davis did it that same way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.211.141.191 (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Magnum Opus?
Frances the Mute's metacritic rating is 75, whereas De-loused in the Comatorium's rating is 82. Given the fact that the "Magnum Opus" part does not cite sources, I propose to change it to "although not as commercially successful as de-loused, it received mostly favorable reviews", or "received considerable critical praise," citing metacritic as a source. --Chilreu (talk) 19:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Extra ratings
The ratings box should not contain more than ten ratings, so I removed these to pare the list down. I have posted them here so the references aren't lost when a reception section is written. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 05:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delusions of Adequacy (A-) link
 * Drowned in Sound link
 * Paste Magazine link
 * Playlouder link
 * Rock Sound

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