Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 13

Mason Secrets?
I came here randomly, not knowing anything about the masons because someone mentioned something about secret societies to me and masons jumped into my head. Now I know 0 about the masons, and when I read the article, there is nothing mentioned at all about any secret anythings. I went back into the history and found that a section called masonic secrets was edited out. Why would you take information like that out of the article? If that information isn't in the article it might as well not be a secret society. I can understand people that know the secrets editing out the exact secrets or something but not editing out the section that even mentions that there are secrets... Anyway consider this a small peer review. Not have a section on the secrets of a secret society, is not good for an encyclopedia. Seraphim 08:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There is two snags with listing the secrets of any 'secret society' in an encyclopedia:
 * Verifiability - if they are secret, how do you verify them to be correct?
 * If they are known, and thus avilable to be included, they cannot be considered secret.
 * On an tangent, and based on my personal experience with masonry in Norway, Freemasonery isn't as much a secret society as a society with secrets. Everything except the rituals are avilable... and the rituals should be secret in the same way (and for the same reasons) the answers to an exam is 'secret'. If you know the answers beforehand, it reduces the value of the experience. YMMV off course. WegianWarrior 09:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have nothing to add, from England, except to concur with the above comments – these are explicitly stated in the article anyway – and the article is not intended as an expose, as there is nothing to expose. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 12:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Same for America (or at least New York). Blueboar 13:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The key here is that the secrets aren't the point. As a note, Eagle Scouts all have a secret handshake (which we usually forget entirely), but no one would claim that this is of central importance to knowing what an Eagle Scout is.  Same with the Masons.  I just did an informational meeting, actually, and people were much more concerned with what Masons do in terms of community service and activities than any religious position or secret anything.  I think things like Learning Centers for dyslexic children, Shriners' hospitals, scholarships, child identification programs, and other charities and charitable activities Masonry supports are much more important, encyclopedically speaking, than the secrets of the Fraternity,  because what we do is much more important.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that not one of us here joined to learn secrets; we joined in order to better ourselves and make a difference in our communities.
 * I used this argument already before, but if it works,why change? I could say that the secret of the 35th degree is a word called "flepgnopfarpian", but you're never going to find a 35th degree, and you're never going to find the word, because I made them both up.  However, if you can't find it, does it mean that it is secret, or that it is wrong?  How do you objectively prove it?  Anti-Masonic sources are POV and tend to exaggerate, and the Masonic sources won't necessarily mention it.
 * However, if you want the real secret, here it is: the real secret of Masonry isn't a word, or a sign, or anything like that. The real secret of Masonry is intangible and indescribable, and if you're not a Mason, you'll never understand it.  I will also note that this is my personal private opinion, and I don't speak for the Fraternity in any way by any stretch of the imagination.MSJapan 16:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that you should expose what the secrets are. You should atleast mention that they exist. Wegian you said that everything but the rituals are avaliable, why isn't that information in the article? The fact that they have secret rituals should be in the article. Right now there is nothing in the article that even mentions any sorts of secrets that they have. If you can't post what the secrets are that's fine, but atleast adknowledge that the secrets exist.  Seraphim  19:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Read the first paragraph of the article and then try to say that it's not explicit about the existence of secret material. Going any further is diffiuclt because that which is considered secret varies significantly depending on the the Grand Lodge one works under.ALR 19:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It mentions that some secrets exist, but it is far from explicit. This is an encyclopedia, the masons are regarded as a secret society, there should atleast be a section that mentions what the secrets are.  If it changes from sept to sept you can seperate the section into subsections for each variation like you have for alot of the article.  Just reading the responces in this little discussion they mention rituals, secret words, and handshakes.  Just adknowledging that they exist can be proven and not considered NPOV.  I feel it's more NPOV and definatly against the ideals of wikipedia to not have a section atleast explaining why it's a secret society, and what secrets there are.  The first paragraph does not do that.  Especially since your arguing that listing any more would be NPOV, but your first paragraph states "It is referred to, in some sources, as "a beautiful system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."" and your source for that is a masonic website.  A group calling their own rituals beautiful is far from NPOV.  Seraphim  19:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * While everything but the rituals are avilable (at least for the Grand Lodge of Norway), to add it all would turn this into a poor article that consited mainly of lists of names, lists of meetingplaces and times, and the Rules and Regulations (in Norwegian, off course).
 * Lets review an important part of that first paragraph (emphasis mine):
 * Freemasonry is an esoteric society, in that certain aspects of its internal work are not generally disclosed to the public, but it is not an occult system, and in recent years, it has become less and less a "secret society" than a "society with secrets". Among the reasons given for the amount of secrecy that remains, is that Freemasonry uses an initiatory system of degrees to progressively explore ethical and philosophical issues, and that the system is less effective if the observer knows beforehand what will happen.
 * It clearly states what the infamous secrets are (certain aspects of the internal work, in other words; the rituals), and why they are secret (so that the experience is not diluted). WegianWarrior 20:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Adding more information to an article does not make it worse. I just can't understand why an article about a secret society doesn't have a section that adresses what the secrets are any more then a passing mention in the first paragraph.  Seraphim  20:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The classic circular argument, I fail to see how articulation of what the secrets consist of might add to the article. It is clear that there are elements which are esoteric, that's as much as is required.ALR 20:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It is in no way a circular argument. There are facts that are not covered in the article.  This is an encyclopedia.  It is not our job to filter out facts because we feel they don't belong.  It is our job to present all the facts.  And the fact that I had to come to the talk pages to find out more about the freemasons shows that the article is missing these facts.   Seraphim  20:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * However those items are non-verifiable, unless you can source verification for that which might allegedly be secret.ALR 21:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It is verifiable what the secrets are. What is non-verifiable is what the content of the secrets are. The group is known to be a secret society, therefore somewhere there is a verifiable source that says that the society has secrets.  This article itself says that things about the inner workings of the group and it's rituals are secret.  You can find a source for that and add a seperate section.  I'm not asking people to add stuff like "omg their secret password is "doghouse"" but if someone has mentioned that a secret password/handshake/ritual exists that needs to be included.  Seraphim  21:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The secrets are not verifiable; if they were, they wouldn't be secret. The article says there are secrets; you want them acknowledged, and they already are.  I can give you a clear reference from Freemasons for Dummies that specifically states that the secrets vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but that still doesn't verify anything.   So what is it exactly you want? MSJapan 21:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * A section in the article that explains all of this information that is here on the talk page, but not included in the article. Just mentioning that there are secrets is not enough, since there is obviously more information on the subject then the fact that secrets exist. Add a section specifically for the secrets, explain how the secrets change from sept to sept, explain why they are kept secret, and adknowledge in the article what forms the secrets take (rituals/passwords/whatever) Seraphim  22:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You have still failed to make a convincing argument why Paragraph one is inadequate. It makes clear that there are secrets, and why they are there.  I fail to see why articulating what those secrets might be actually adds to the article, particularly as they are not cinsistent.  Indeed it may be that in some cases the nature of the secrets is in itself secret.  That's a very good way of protecting a secret!ALR 22:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no more information, because the secrets are secrets. If there was public information, they wouldn't be secret anymore, would they?  First of all, they can't be verified except within one jurisdiction anyway, out of probably 600 at a low estimate.  England alone has 47 working rituals today, and not one of them has the secrets printed in them.  There's also no way to tell how they change - you can only take degrees in one jurisdiction, and you can only do it once.  There is no way, therefore, to tell what the secrets are, how they change, or what forms they take, because they are all different as far as any one of us knows. You want the secrets of a jurisdiction, join and find out, because that's the only way you're going to get them.
 * The story I was referring to takes place in the Phillipines. Some US Army personnel found a lodge meeting, but none of the signs matched.  They ended up having to put all the stuff in the Lodge in its proper place to verify their membership.  Nothing else they knew made a difference.
 * So exactly what is it you wanted us to do again? MSJapan 22:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As an example of verifiable sources, I went through the pages listed as references on this article. In the first reference "The Masonic Manual" it has a few paragraphs of interest.


 * "Finally, keep sacred and inviolable the mysteries of the order; as these are to distinguish you from the rest of the community, and mark your consequence among masons. If, in the circle of your acquaintance, you find a person desirous of being initiated into masonry, be particularly careful not to recommend him, unless you are convinced he will conform to our rules; that the honor, glory and reputation of the institution, may be firmly established, and the world at large convinced of its good effects."


 * That shows that there is a secret used to mark masons so they know eachother, that is not found in the article. Also there's another paragraph:


 * "The virtue indispensably requisite in Masons is - SECRECY. This is the guard of their confidence, and the security of their trust So great a stress is to be laid upon it, that it is enforced under the strongest obligations; nor, in their esteem, is any man to be accounted wise, who has not intellectual strength and ability sufficient to cover and conceal such honest secrets as are committed to him, as well as his own more serious and private affairs."


 * In the last reference "Anderson's Constitution" there is also a paragraph that shows that Mason's have a secret way of identifying eachother:


 * "You are cautiously to examine him, in such a Method as Prudence shall direct you, that you may not be impos'd upon by an ignorant, false Pretender, whom you are to reject with contempt and Derision, and beware of giving him any Hints of Knowledge.
 * But if you discover him to be a true and genuine Brother, you are to respect him accordingly; and if he is in Want, you must relieve him if you can, or else direct him how he may be relieved; you must employ him some days, or else recommend him to be employ'd. But you are not charged to do beyond your ability, only to prefer a poor Brother, that is a good Man and true before any other poor People in the same Circumstance. "


 * Because of all this information, in sources that are already considered viable enough to be included in this article, you can state with valid sources that not only are the masonic rituals secret, there are also secret means of identifying yourself as a mason

to fellow masons. I'm sure if I go digging I can find more, since in that 3rd paragraph it mentions that you can't give a false Pretender any "hints of knowledge" which means that there is more secret information out there. There are 2 examples of valid sources that show that secrets not covered in the first paragraph exist, there is no justifiable reason not to add a section that mentions them, since their existance can be easially proven. Seraphim 23:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Crack on then, you're just as entitled to add material as anyone else, if you feel it's missing, then add something.ALR 23:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Since this is a contraversial topic it is customary to reach an agreement on the talk page before adding information to prevent a revert war. I noticed that there has been a section on the secrets in the article before but it is usually swiftly removed.  Also as i've said i'm not an expert on freemasonry, that's why I came to this article in the first place, and I would rather see someone who is considered an expert add the section to keep people from coming to my talk page yelling at me for changing a page that i'm not an expert on.  Seraphim  23:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Since this is a contraversial topic it is customary to reach an agreement on the talk page before adding information to prevent a revert war. I noticed that there has been a section on the secrets in the article before but it is usually swiftly removed.  Also as i've said i'm not an expert on freemasonry, that's why I came to this article in the first place, and I would rather see someone who is considered an expert add the section to keep people from coming to my talk page yelling at me for changing a page that i'm not an expert on.  Seraphim  23:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Seraphim, I want to thank you for being willing to discuss this and not just getting into a revert war. Let me address some of your points above. The first paragraph (the one that includes the line "mark your consequence among masons") is not about secrets. You have taken the paragraph out of context. In context, that bit of ritual is not about secrets or secrecy but about living up to the ideals of the fraternity... Being charitable, respecting for your fellows, living a temperate, upright and moral life. THESE are the mysteries of the order which we are asked to keep sacred and inviolable. THESE are the things that distiguish us and mark us. While the second paragraph is about secrets... it is again taken out of context. The secrets being discussed are personal confidences that one Mason might have shared with another. In short, the paragraph is saying that Masons should not be gosips. Finally, the paragraph from Anderson's Constitutions IS about the kind of secrets you are talking about. He is talking about regognition signals: Secret handshakes, passwords, etc... All that silly stuff that every fraternity in the world uses. It is no secret that Masons have them. What is a secret (sort of) is what they are. (I say sort of, because a- they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and b- many of them have been "exposed" already and you can find them with about 10 minutes worth of googling.) However, I seriously doubt that including discussion of these secrets would change any POV problems you feel the article has. Blueboar 03:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well 1 out of 3 isn't bad :p anyway like I said, since this is a source that you guys deem to be acceptable, that shows that masons do have the secret passwords/secrets/whatever, that information needs to be in the article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we are suppossed to list all the facts, not pick and choose which ones to add.  The argument people presented above against adding a section to address the secrets was that they were already addressed in the first paragraph, and that any other secret cannot be validated.  However now I just proved that it can be proven that they exist.  I am of the opinion that the idea that it is ok not to include information in wikipedia because it can be googled in 10 minutes is not a good path to go down.  Also this isn't a NPOV issue, I only noticed all the NPOV issues after this discussion started, and I started reading the backlogs of the talk page to find more information about the "secrets" and how the page has dealt with them in the past.
 * My point is, it can be proven that masons have secret rituals, and secret ways of identifying themselves, people have also been saying that the secrets vary from lodge to lodge. This information (minus the existance of the rituals) are not mentioned in the article at all, which to me is a glaring omission.  If you read the article right now, you are lead to believe that the only secrets are the rituals, and they are kept secret so people do not know the "answers" when they have to take part in them.  It doesn't mention that secret ways of identifying eachother exist, and that the reason for the secret ways of identifying eachother is so you can verify that a stranger that comes to your lodge is indeed a fellow mason and not a "ignorant, false Pretender, whom you are to reject with contempt and Derision".  The fact that this stuff is not in the article seems to be a glaring omission. Since I had 0 knowledge of masons before I poked over here yesterday afternoon, and I have learned all this on the talk page, not in the article.  Seraphim  04:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Potentially the difficulty we have here is that the recognitions are part of the ritual, and aren't used outside of that context as such. I don't see any need to be more specific than 'The ritual is secret' since that covers it.  In some GLs the entirety of the ritual is secret, in others, such as my own, the secrets are limited to the recognitions.  The article makes clear that there are secrets within the ritual context and elaborates on that inasmuch as prior knowledge of the ritual lessens its' effect.  Additionally merely because an item purports to be one or more of the secrets it cannot be validated or verified without violation of the obligations.  Indeed, some of the material purporting to be the Secrets is wrong or at the very least inaccurate since the specifics also vary according to ones GL and in at least one case have changed over time.ALR 08:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The source I have doesn't mention the rituals at all. It shows that masons have secret ways of identifying eachother.  It's completly seperate from the rituals.  Also i'd like to point out that the source article i'm using is one that is already referenced in the article.  If you feel that it is not a valid source, then you have to remove the other parts of the article that reference it as well.  I understand 100% because you guys keep hammering it in that the secrets change all the time, and vary from group to group, plus you cannot ever be sure what the secrets are because the people that have the secrets aren't allowed to disclose them.  However this source, and you masons, have made it clear that not only are their secret rituals that change from group to group, but there is also a secret greeting or means of showing other masons that you belong to the fraternity.  This I feel deserves it's own section, instead of just mentioning that "secret rituals exist".  Especially when the only reasoning given in the article for the secrecy of the rituals is so that people don't know what to expect when they go to them, does not cover the reason for keeping the identification stuff secret, obviously that is kept secret so nobody is able to falsely identify themselves as a mason and get access to other information they aren't suppossed to have.  Seraphim  08:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure which part of 'recognitions are ritual' you're not understanding here, but I can't simplify any more than that. The point is extremely simple and requires no further illumination which would itself only obfuscate that clarity.  There is no explcit secrecy outside the ritual context.ALR 09:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand that you consider ther recognitions a ritual, however it isn't the same type of "ritual" that the first paragraph talks about. A secret way of proving to other masons that you are a member doesn't fall under the statement in the first paragraph "Among the reasons given for the amount of secrecy that remains, is that Freemasonry uses an initiatory system of degrees to progressively explore ethical and philosophical issues, and that the system is less effective if the observer knows beforehand what will happen." at all.  Also somewhere in the article it should say that the secrets change from lodge to lodge, since that is information that is not in the article.  Seraphim  09:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand that you consider ther recognitions a ritual, however it isn't the same type of "ritual" that the first paragraph talks about. Yes it is, the recognitions only apply in a ritualistic context. More than that isn't for discussion.ALR 10:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It might be different at your lodge since customs change from lodge to lodge, as others have pointed out in this discussion numerous times is that one mason does not know what the other sept's secrets are, or how they are used, therefore you can't say that for sure because of the nature of the secrets. However in Anderson's constitution it says "You are cautiously to examine him, in such a Method as Prudence shall direct you, that you may not be impos'd upon by an ignorant, false Pretender, whom you are to reject with contempt and Derision, and beware of giving him any Hints of Knowledge. But if you discover him to be a true and genuine Brother, you are to respect him accordingly;" If it was only used as part of a ritual, I (if i was a guy) would beable to just walk into a lodge and participate in a ritual up to the point where the recognitions take place.  However by the time you get to that point, you have already participated in a ritual or atleast part of one, and therefore someone would beable to post online as a valid source all of the parts of the masonic rituals, up to the point where the recognitions take place.  Also the quote from Anderson's says that you are not to give a false pretender "any Hints of Knowledge" it seems to me like bringing them into a ritual would be doing just that, since the rituals are secret.  It stands to reason that the recognitions are used outside of rituals.  Also you can't say "More than that isn't for discussion." since I have a source that claims otherwise, that people in this article already have given approval to as an accepted reference.  The idea that you can just decide what can and cannot be discussed is incorrect, this is an encyclopedia and it is not suppossed to be filtered information, but all the best factual information on a subject.  Seraphim  18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * you have already participated in a ritual or atleast part of one is a very valid point and I know at what point any cowans present would be evicted from the lodge. You clearly haven't read the article in full as you will note that Feminine Freemasonry is considered as Freemasonry in most resepcts except inasmuch as it admits women; so if you are a woman you can still be admitted to the mysteries.  I can say More than that isn't for discussion since I know what the rituals are and am of the opinion that any further discussion down this particular route goes beyond that which I am obligated to protect. all the best factual information, my previously stated stance IS a statement of the best factual information available as it applies to the Fraternity worldwide, namely:  Elements of the ritual are considered secret, the level of secrecy associated with the ritual varies with some GLs considering the entirety and some limiting their secrecy only to the recognitions.  Beyond that my view is that whilst my GL holds the latter position I respect the positions of other GLs and qould tend to protect the ritual as a whole to avoid inadvertantly leading another brother to break his or her obligations.  As was mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, the most effective way you can find out what the secrets are as they apply to your part of the world is to join a lodge.  I'll say again that we appear to be going round in circles with this debate, so I'll leave it at that.ALR 19:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * (Gives a secret sign over the ether)... I'm only a 6&7/8° Mason, but I've found a secret memo, on the internet, saying Freemasons are going to vary the hours of daylight over the course of the next 48 hours, to further the grip on world government. Should we tell everyone? I think we should watch the skies! Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 09:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be funny if I was one of those conspiracy/crazy people, I could care less about what the secrets are, you won't see me going around saying "omg the password is fishbone!" or anything like that since I understand that the nature of the secrets makes it so that you cannot trust any sources out there that claim to know what the content of the secrets are. However with that said the fact that they exist needs to be in the article. Seraphim  09:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Doctor, the talking angle's voice is back! Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 09:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Discussion on talk pages is suppossed to stay on the topic of how to improve the associated article. If you have voices in your head, you might need to go see a quack. However please don't try to de-rail this section with nonsence. Seraphim  10:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought you were the issue SeraphimXI Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 20:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Seraphim... you seem to have as much information on this issue as any non-Mason could have. You know that Masons have secrets, that vary in content from the entire ritual in some jurisdictions, to just recognition signs, grips and passwords in others.  You obviously feel strongly that a statement to this effect should be included in the article, so why not draft a paragraph?  If you are worried about a possible instant revert and rejection of your paragraph, try posting it here first - then everyone can comment on it, work out a compromise and perfect it before it is put into the article. Blueboar 13:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually that's a good idea :) Seraphim  18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "Seraphim... you seem to have as much information on this issue as any non-Mason could have." I cannot find any evidence to support that. The artcle already covers the issue. "You obviously feel strongly that a statement to this effect should be included in the article, so why not draft a paragraph? If you are worried about a possible instant revert and rejection of your paragraph, try posting it here first - then everyone can comment on it, work out a compromise and perfect it before it is put into the article."  I obviously feel strongly that the statement to this effect should remain as it is. No special cases... but as I'm busy for the next few days, any changes may get through, initially. This secret stuff is like people complaining when I draw the lounge curtains at night to watch TV, so as not to be disturbed by any nosey passer-by. If you’re that interested, knock on the door and join. Otherwise mind your own business. As a Christian I try not to read Pagan, etc., rituals - as I do not need to validate myself in this way. If your take is that Freemasonry is evil, why is it of such interest to you? Again my faith is my business, and Freemasonry is not a religion, or a substitute. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 20:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see what difference it makes if it is verifiable or not. Wikipedia is not a tabloid.  It should be respectful of certain religious groups requests for privacy. This article is extremely informative on all that is important to know.  Epachamo 19:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

POV warning and Merger tags
Large portions of this article go against wikipedia's fundamental NPOV principals, which according to wikipedia policy is "absolute and non-negotiable".

There is a very obvious NPOV Content Fork with this page and the Anti-Freemasonry page. That has gone so far as to people on the talk page arguing that information should be moved from this page to the Anti-Freemasonry page. There is no reason to not have the history of and arguments against freemasonry on this page. This is a non-negotiable issue according to wikipedia policy, and must be resolved for this page to be NPOV.

The way to fix a Content Fork is to merge the 2 offending pages, and therefore i'm adding POV warnings and Merge proposals to both pages.

The fork is the largest NPOV violation, however there are also other less obvious ones.

In the first paragraph the line "It is referred to, in some sources, as "a beautiful system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."" is sourced by a Masonic writing, a group speaking highly of itself is Not NPOV. Especially if you do not include a differing view point.

I am not qualified to judge the Pov status on the information presented in the Orginizational structure, membership requirements, principles and activities, Ritual and symbolism, and the History of Freemasonry sections, I do not claim to be a historian or even educated in freemasonry, therefor I cannot judge these sections.

What I am capable of is spotting glaring NPOV violations. And the section on Criticism, persecution, and prosecution is another glaring example of one. It should be titled "Masonic counter-arguments to common criticism's" since every single criticism in that section is followed by a defencive statement, some of which are proceeded by the word "However" if your looking for them.

It is very obvious that steps have been taken to make sure this article is very Pro-Masonic and does not cover both sides of the topic in a fair NPOV view. This stuff Needs to be addressed.

All wikipedia articles must follow the NPOV rules. We are an encyclopedia not a propaganda machine. In order to fix this article's NPOV problems, this page Must be merged with Anti-freemasonry, the POV statements backed up by biased sources must be removed, and the Criticism's must be allowed to stand alone, without counter-arguments, or allow the anti-freemasonry people to add counter-arguments to the counter-arguments added by the pro-freemasonry people. It is a section on critisims not "Masonic counter-arguments to common criticism's". Seraphim 21:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It has also been clearly shown that the article is too long otherwise, and the anti-Masonic edits were from biased sources. The criticisms are not fact, save the Catholic one, and the counterarguments are fact.  So the article is POV because it doesn't show what you want it to, and that's simply too bad.  You would rather there be anti-Masonic propaganda rather than what you see as pro-Masonic propaganda (that research shows is fact).  That doesn't make the article NPOV.  You have a gross misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy, but a pretty good grasp of what's what for a new user.


 * However, if you can show me anti-Masonic sources that don't come from FreemasonryWatch or conspiracy theory/evangelical Christian sites, we can change it. Length restrictions prohibit us from remerging the articles.  Tags are removed. MSJapan 21:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not judging the content, because I am not an expert on the subject. It is wikipedia policy that all articles must be NPOV. It is an "absolute and non-negotiable" rule. One of the examples of NPOV is a content fork, and I quote from Neutral Point of View "A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV guidelines by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and majority Point of Views on a certain subject are treated in one article."


 * From the talk page I can see that this has been attempted before, and the party listing the NPOV tag usually gives up out of frustration. However I feel that it is Immoral for any wikipedia editor to ignore the NPOV policies since we are suppossed to be creating an encyclopedia, and I am willing to follow the dispute resolution proceedures to get this article fixed.  Seraphim  21:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That's generous of you, considering you were going to get 3RR reported the next time you tagged the page. MSJapan 02:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, "generally accepted policy" means that there are exceptions, and this happens to be one of them. The consensus was that it should be split, and you can thank the anti-Masonic POV people for that.  Also, "treated fairly" is negotiable; the facts of anti-Masonic POV don't stand up to research, and to not point out that the citations are false and the quotes created would definitely be POV.  There are no further counter-arguments, because there is really on ground for the anti-Masonic POV to stand on.  I can't help that.
 * This is what concerns me - you say you're not an expert, but you say you see the problems on the page. However, your comments don't show me (or others) that at all, because you're not convincing me that you really understand anything about the situation in the slightest, but you're arguing about it.  MSJapan 02:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * First off, I wouldn't be breaking a theoretical 1rr on this page, never mind a 3rr, lets not toss around baseless threats. Second, NPOV is not a policy, it is a rule, it is one of the only 5 rules of wikipedia and it is not something that you can ignore and call it an exception. Also you saying that the consensus was that the page should be split is incorrect.  The split was done by a random person in archive 5 back in october when he noticed there was no anti-freemasonry page. Also if the reasoning for the split was so the anti-masonic POV people could have their own page (which it wasn't), it follows the defination of a POV fork to a T.(from Content_forking "POV forks usually arise when two or more contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page, and instead of resolving that disagreement, someone creates another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) to be developed according to their personal views rather than according to consensus. This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first. As Wikipedia does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be nominated for deletion. ".  The anti-freemasonry page should be nominated for deletion, and the editors of that page need to work the information from over there into here.  Also just because you can formulate a counter-argument, does not mean that you should not list the critisism.  Since alot of the critisism's are based on the "secrets" that other editors made so certain to point out that you cannot say for sure what the secrets consist of, you also are not able to say what they don't consist of.  If someone were to assert that X secret ritual involves the sacrifice of a baby frog, you can point out that there is no way of knowing if that is true or not, but due to the secrecy you cannot state that it does not involve the sacrifice of a baby cow since it would be hypocritical. Also i'd like to remind you once again, that you do NOT need to be a expert on a subject to detect bias in an article on that subject.  Bias has to do with the words, not the facts they are presenting.  Also any wikipedia user has the right to edit any page they want.  I feel this article is not NPOV, therefore the article's NPOV standing is disputed, and it will be disputed untill both sides agree that the article is now NPOV.  Removing the NPOV tag while this discussion is still going on is not the correct thing to do. Since all the NPOV tag says, is that the article's NPOV standing is being disputed, which is obviously currently the case since this discussion is still going on. Unless of course, you can argue that somehow i'm not disputing the article's NPOV status. Which would be quite an impressive feat.  Seraphim  05:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Might I point out that insisting on equal time for Anti-Masonic claims here is something like insisting on equal time for Intelligent Design coverage in Evolution?--SarekOfVulcan 02:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Never did I argue for equal time. Infact wikipedia policy, which I agree with, is very clear that equal time is not needed for an article to be NPOV. My arguments are about non NPOV language in the article, and the creation of a POV Fork. Seraphim  05:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Freemasons do not talk religion or politics in Open Lodge. But what is the policy about talking to users who think they are minor deities on Wiki? I think we should be told... (Doctor! Doctor! The earth is flat I tell you! I demand arbitration!) Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 09:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Anti-masonry (as with Freemasonry) is a unique phenomenon with a long and complex history. As such it deserves its own article independant of Freemasonry. It is similar in scope to Anti-semitism... Granted, you should discuss anti-semitism in an article on Judeism (as we mention Anti-masonic issues near the end of this article), and you should discuss Judeism in an article on anti-semitism, but each topic still gets its own article. Blueboar 14:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "A NPOV Content Fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject". This is not the case here. Most of the content forks are actually POV forks: an attempt to evade NPOV guidelines by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Grye 02:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Adding to what you said, and amplifying it (though I think we are in agreement in intent if not wording) is this, from the same page: "There is no consensus whether a "Criticism of .... " article is always a POV fork. At least the "Criticism of ... " article should contain rebuttals if available. And the original article should contain a summary of the "Criticism of ... " article. See also Criticism"--Vidkun 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Content by Basil Rathbone
Note that the citation is Steven Knight which has been discredited, note also that his ritual citation is Duncans. I don't have access to a copy of that justnow, does anyone know the publication date? As I remember its 1880s or thereabouts? Notice of that posted to Administrator: David Gerards talk page.ALR 13:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. Steven Knight is an accepted Anti-Masonic Resource, widely available.


 * 2. Duncan's Ritual is an accepted Masonic Resource, widely available


 * 3. Is this the justification for deleting several hours of work creating a badly needed section on Masonic Secrets? And what is the justification for deleting the 'See Also' Wiki links to Secret society and Mormonism? And what is the justification for deleting the collection External links to articles critical of Freemasonry?


 * 4. Is this the justification for deleting the NPOV and Article Merge warnings put in place recently by another Wiki editors with absolutely no discussion?


 * 5. Is this the justification for ignoring the above discussion on this talk page about the NPOV and Forking problem on this page?


 * 6. I'm reverting the material, the 'discussion' reached it's consensus - the deletions are unjustified.Basil Rathbone 14:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this: Linking guidelines:
 * http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/When_should_I_link_externally
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Make_only_links_relevant_to_the_context
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not


 * I guess the fact that you are trying to push a POV intentionally to annoy most of the person editing this justifies your ignoring the variouslink guidleines that are established.--Vidkun 14:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You shouldn't guess, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. By the way I seen from a perusal of your personal page you have a little Masonic symbol listed with a 'I'm on the square' beside it, like ALR, BlueSquare, and Blueboar who have been "editing" my contributions today. Very helpful and useful information about you all.  Thank-you for your contribution to this important discussion.Basil Rathbone 14:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, actually, I DO have the square and compasses on my user page. DO you know why?  Because, unlike some persons editing the page, I am willing to show EXACTLY what my personal biases are.  It's called full disclosure, something other don't seem to practice.--Vidkun 15:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have a little square and compass on my talk page... I am a Mason and proud of it. That's why I am interested in editing an article about Freemasonry.  If you even bother to read the discussion here, you would know that I have never said any different.  Your point? Blueboar 15:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And... 1) Steven Knight may be accepted by Anti-Masons, but he is hardly accepted as a source by the rest of the world. 2) Duncan's Ritual is most definitely NOT an accepted masonic source. for the rest, see the linking guidelines cited by Vidkun. Blueboar 15:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. Dunno about 'The Rest of the World' Bro, I don't get around that much I guess. Still the book has sold millions and millions of copies and was referenced in the U.K. House of Commons Special Inquiry into Freemasonry...


 * 2. Well Duncans is very commonally used today by Masons and it is listed for sale on a great number of Masonic websites. But your question is an interesting one. Would you be so kind as to post copies of Masonic Secrets from your own Grand Lodge ritual book so we can compare? Thanks for your help.Basil Rathbone 15:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * None of us have to. You are the one making a claim that these ARE the secrets, so, why don't YOU go and get proof from an active Grand Lodge.  We do not need to prove the falsehood, as we are not trying to say, in the article, that the exposés are false.  YOU are trying to say the are true, and have nothing to back that up from a reliable source.  It's nice to see the same tactics that have been used for years on end by people trying to say what the secrets are, still don't prove anything. --Vidkun 15:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Duncan's is still available commercially, and thus it is still under copyright. Taking a picture from an old edition doesn't suddenly make it public domain.  Second of all, this iarticle is not about Royal Arch.  Third, Duncan is only about US Freemasonry, and thus has no place here.  These things vary, and this article is a general article, not a specific one. MSJapan 16:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because something is under copyright doesn't mean it can't be included as a source if it is properly cited. If that was the case writing a termpaper would be almost impossible.  Seraphim  16:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent point Seraphim . In any event the information as Brother Vidkun pointed out in his excellent 'Exposes' contribution has been exposed for centuries and has neither been confirmed or denied. However if Brother MSJapan would now like to confirm the 'exposure'...Basil Rathbone 16:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Why should I? You violated Copyvio by copying a picture out of Duncan's as well as verbatim text, and did not cite properly. I'm also not your Brother, and I would appreciate you not referring to me as such. MSJapan 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * however, your use of an image from another source, which is where your undoubtably 20th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Masonsigns.gif IS copyvio, and, by the way, you are begging the question.--Vidkun 16:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just using a copyrighted image is not a copyviolation. Most of the images on wikipedia are under fair use, this particular image would also fall under fair use if the source is found and added to the image page.  If your claiming that it is a copyrighted image, then you must know what the source of it is, therefore please add the source to the image page.  Seraphim  16:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Already brought the image, and its probable source, to the attention of those who need to know.--Vidkun 16:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Historical Royal Arch material doesn't belong here anyway, as this is not the York Rite article, so it's gone.MSJapan 16:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look like "it's gone" Brother MSJapan. Are you now saying the Royal Arch secrets posted in this section are 'Historical Material'? It's getting a little hard to follow your train of thought here, please shed some more light.Basil Rathbone 16:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It is now, and yes I am, as they were already discussed elsewhere. Believe whatever you want to believe about it, but this is still not the appropriate article for that material. MSJapan 16:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No you seem to be seeing things again Brother MSJapan. Perhaps you have Wikipedia confused with a "private" Masonic website. Wikipedida is an encyclopedia and therefore should certainly contain information about Masonic Secrets, secrets that have been exposed and confirmed by the public circulation of official masonic grand lodge ritual books and monitors from the estates of deceased masons. Something you are no doubt well aware of. Your 'copyright' concerns have been asked and answered so you seem to be trying another gambit, but if I may I might suggest it is as equally thought out by you.Basil Rathbone 16:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As a Mason I choose not to divulge the secrets of my Lodge, but will say this: I think we can agree that content here regardless of topic should be (1) comprehensive and (2) fundamentally correct. This section is neither. --Faustus37 17:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear Basil has been blocked for a few days due to the 3rr violation. Let's make sure we go carefully through the Article to undo any damage. Blueboar 18:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. However, please make a list of the things that need to be fixed, and do them in one swell foop!--Vidkun 18:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I took the easy way out, and simply reverted to the last (trusted) version prior to Basil's arrival. If I inadvertantly cut a legit edit, you have my appology. Blueboar 18:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like the user Ardenn whacked the offending section beforehand. I don't see anything particularly wrong with what's there now. Much thanks to all. --Faustus37 18:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What was that section offending? It was all sourced material.  Seraphim  18:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but it was also materially incorrect. I can't speak for all of us, but if you tried using that to get into my Lodge, you'd be spectacularly unsuccessful. --Faustus37 18:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you would like to say that what he listed is incorrect because it's not how it's done at your lodge, that is an invalid reason to blank his contribution. Instead of removing it you should add a disclaimer saying that the contents of the secrets change from lodge to lodge, not remove the information because it is not true at your lodge(since that statement in itself you can't verify). Seraphim 18:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Whilst it may have been sourced the currency, accuracy and POV of the sources would render them inadequate for any serious academic work, including a termpaper. My copy of Duncans is nearly 130 years old, given that I've cited a current ritual book published in 1991, so any dependence on a book the age od Duncans is invalid given the existence of more recent texts. I'd also say support Faustus comment, if you tried that to get into my Lodge you'd be thrown out in pretty short order. The assertions in Knight have been demonstrated to be invalid, most of the assertions weren't taken to investigation, those that were investigated garnered insufficient supporting evidence to be taken forward.  Knight is also an openly biased assessment, so for a NPOV discussion isn't reliable. Sourced does not mean reliable.ALR 18:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If the assertations in Knight are invalid, then remove them and cite that it is an invalid source. However throwing out a source for being too old, when it comes to a society with rituals that go back to before 1583 (according to the article) that to me, is completly invalid.  I know the secret society at my school still performs the same initiation rituals from 1889 (atleast the public part).  Also i'd like to point out once again, people here when it defends their point have stated over and over that the secrets change from lodge to lodge. If you would like to say that what he listed is incorrect because it's not how it's done at your lodge, that is an invalid comment.  Instead of removing it you should add a disclaimer saying that the contents of the secrets change from lodge to lodge, not remove the information because it is not true at your lodge(which you shouldn't be saying anyway).  Seraphim  18:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually around 1188 is claimed in one of my Lodges, but the evidence for that is circumstancial and therefore not verifiable. I'd also say that I may have given the wrong impression about how the secrets vary.  It's not so much that the secrets themselves vary, but what are considered to be secrets.  In some cases the entire ritual in others, such as my own, only the recognitions.  To prove a man to be a Mason would require more than just asking him to give any recognitions.  And is it not somewhat presumptious to try to tell me how to interpret my own obligations?ALR 19:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sourced, but not verifiable for what it claims to be. I could write a book saying the secret word is flibbertigibbit, but that doesn't make it verifiable.  The things are not verifiable to the general public.  Even a use of Masonic books that were privately owned doesn't give a verifiable source.  The claim is that what Rathbone put in are THE actual secrets.  He makes this claim, or his source does.  His source does not do anything to give verifiability to that claim.  No claim to expose the secrets will ever be verifiable.-Vidkun 18:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If no claim will ever be verifiable why do you not challenge the line " It is referred to, in some sources, as "a beautiful system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."" that is already in the article.? That line says that the rituals are beautiful but that is talking about the contents of the secrets. You can't have it both ways.  Seraphim  18:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all: regarding the beautiful system phrase being openly available, in my jurisdiction some portions of the ritual ARE written out, and, were that portion you love to keep quoting part of MY jurisdiction's ritual, it would, possibly, be part of the written out portion.  There are portions which are NEVER written out, and those are the secrets.  They are passed on by demonstration and as oral teachings.  Secondly, that line is not one of the secrets, it is a description of Freemasonry, and is self referencing.  Thirdly, you seem to be falling prey to the idea that if I don't fix EVERY section, I am not allowed to fix ANY section.--Vidkun 19:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "I took the easy way out, and simply reverted to the last (trusted) version prior to Basil's arrival." No worries on the revert, then, Blueboar. --Vidkun 18:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think one would be hard-pressed to find any subject that has generated more pure and utter crap passing as fact than Freemasonry over the years, "sourced" or otherwise. Even information generally accepted as legitimate rarely covers Freemasonry as a whole. I find the main challenge in editing this subject is to somehow reconcile the practices of the different jurisdictions into a short, easy-to-read format. Often it simply can't be done, and that's when dealing with the public attributes of the Craft. Even if we Wikipedian Masons were to conspire to publish a definitive account of our secrets (which we all know ain't gonna happen), it would be a positively daunting (and I daresay pointless) challenge, much more so than anything previously attempted here on the subject. It's a can of worms best left unopened for a wide variety of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with Freemasonry at all. --Faustus37 18:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I have stopped by this article from time to time and for the most part what I've seen has been pretty good. Masonry is a hard topic to write about because there is a lot that could be covered, and so much of it doesn't refer to Masonry as a whole, but mere parts of it.

I'd like to see a direct, simple and fair article develop that just covers agreed upon facts. One problem I see with this is the further development of these facts which eventually leads to disputes.

There will always be Masons protective of the Craft and anti-Masons trying to say their piece. This is not the place for agruments however. The article needs to be written, starting from the beginning, with verifiable facts. Move up through its history and stop. There are a hundred and one interesting stories that we could include, but they don't serve to improve the function of this article. Masonry is one of the most written about topics in history, we don't need to duplicate that, just give a solid introduction.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. --Cauil 09:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Copyrights
''Images and photographs, like written works, are subject to copyright. Someone owns them unless they have been explicitly placed in the public domain. Images on the internet need to be licensed directly from the copyright holder or someone able to license on their behalf. In some cases, fair use guidelines may allow a photograph to be used.''

''If you are the owner of content that is being used on Wikipedia without your permission, then you may request the page be immediately removed from Wikipedia; see Request for immediate removal of copyright violation. You can also contact our Designated agent to have it permanently removed, but it may take up to a week for the page to be deleted that way (you may also blank the page but the text will still be in the page history). Either way, we will, of course, need some evidence to support your claim of ownership.''

--Ardenn 18:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeup like I said, Fair Use. We deal with this all the time over at the Video Game related articles, since before a game is released it is impossible to get non copyrighted screenshots.  If you would like I can show you some of the templates we have made to standardize the image citations.  Seraphim  18:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair use - If you use part of a copyrighted work under "fair use", you must make a note of that fact (along with names and dates). It is our goal to be able to freely redistribute as much of Wikipedia's material as possible, so original images and sound files licensed under the GFDL or in the public domain are greatly preferred to copyrighted media files used under fair use. See Wikipedia:Boilerplate request for permission for a form letter asking a copyright holder to grant us a license to use their work under terms of the GFDL. 
 * Yeup I agree, it's much better to have original image or sound files, or public domain images. However the fact that an image is copyrighted does not mean we cannot use it on here as long as the image page has the correct legal information on it.  Seraphim  19:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

'Never use materials that infringe the copyrights of others. This could create legal liabilities and seriously hurt the project. If in doubt, write it yourself.' --Ardenn 18:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

There are a few blanket categories of copyrighted images whose use on Wikipedia has been generally approved as likely being fair use when done in good faith. These include:


 * Cover art. Cover art from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary).
 * Team and corporate logos. For identification.  See Logos.
 * Stamps and currency. For identification.
 * Other promotional material. Posters, programs, billboards, ads.  For critical commentary.
 * Film and television stills. For critical commentary and discussion of cinematic and televisual history.
 * Screen shots from software products. For critical commentary.
 * Paintings and other works of visual art. For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school.
 * Publicity photos. For identification. See Publicity photos.

--Ardenn 18:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The image you mention, Seraphim is outside of the fair use provisions. Ardenn 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I can play the quote game too! "Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include— the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; the nature of the copyrighted work; the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. We are using it for scholary research, for a non profit educational purpose, we are using a very small portion of the article, and we are not effecting it's market value. It is fair use. If you want to argue otherwise, all the quotations in the article must be removed also if they are from 20th century works. Then we have to start going through wikipedia and removing all screenshots taken from outside sources, all movie posters, all photographs that the photographer hasn't explicitly approved use on wikipedia. Seraphim  19:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * How about one real simple thing: the uploaded file masonsign.gif has no source listed, which is a violation of wikipedia policy on images, plain and simple.--Vidkun 19:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * One more time, seeing as how you just want to trade duelling quotes, and don't want to do anything about the substance of the matter:If you use part of a copyrighted work under "fair use", you must make a note of that fact (along with names and dates). It is our goal to be able to freely redistribute as much of Wikipedia's material as possible, so original images and sound files licensed under the GFDL or in the public domain are greatly preferred to copyrighted media files used under fair use. See Wikipedia:Boilerplate request for permission for a form letter asking a copyright holder to grant us a license to use their work under terms of the GFDL. --Vidkun 19:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree on that, whoever posted the image originally needs to put a source for it. However even if the image was copyrighted, if it was first created before 1923 it is public domain no matter what.  Seraphim  19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless whoever posted the image originally puts a source for it, it is automatically violative of fair use guidelines. Without sourcing, w cannot judge age.  However, from a view of the image, that mode of dress seems to be mid to late 20th century, and I believe it is probably from Knight's book, and, therefore, NOT fair use.--Vidkun 19:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll agree right now it is a violation since he does not have it sourced, however he cannot add it because he is currently blocked. Once he adds a source it will be fair use due to the fact that it meets the requirements for fair use listed in US copyright law that I quoted above. We are using the image for scholary/educational purposes, wikipedia is a non profit organization, we are only using a small portion of the work, and we are not affecting the work's market value.  This is the tag it should have  Seraphim  19:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That's all well and good regarding the fair use of the image. It still doesn't make the image verifiably the secret signs of Masons.  There isn't anything backing that claim up, and, therefore, it shouldn't be put in.  To quote you: "If the assertations in Knight are invalid, then remove them and cite that it is an invalid source." except that it isn't necessarily invalid, simply unverifiable.--Vidkun 19:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree 100% I was just pointing out that the fact that the image may be copyrighted does not mean it can't be included. If the source does turn out to be in the Knight book, and you all feel it is an invalid source, by all means remove it.  However do not list the removal reason as that the image breaks copyright law (as was done according to the page history) list that it was removed due to the image coming from an invalid source.  This section is about copyright, and that's all I was talking about.   Seraphim  19:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If this image was used, to do it any justice one would have to cite it something to the effect of, "This is an artist's depiction of what he believes are the secret Masonic signs as published in a known anti-Masonic work circa 1875. This depiction does not necessarily represent the signs given in any Masonic lodge worldwide in 1875 or at any point thereafter." In short the accuracy of the depiction itself is suspect at best. The argument of whether it's Fair Use or not is quite frankly immaterial in my view. --Faustus37 19:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys this section was just about Copyright in general. If you want to attack the credibility of the image, go up into the correct talk section and i'll help you. This was a section Ardenn created as a claim that copyrighted images cannot be used on wikipedia, which is untrue.  Seraphim  19:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge tag
Can it be removed? Ardenn 23:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not yet, once Anti-Freemasonry is dealt with we will have to decide if it should be merged or not.  Seraphim  23:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see why not. The Anti-Masonry Article is growing and becoming stronger.  As it does it becomes even more sure that stands on it's own, and should not be merged here. Blueboar 23:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Right now it's just being brought into line so it's an NPOV article on it's own. Then we have to discuss if the content there needs to be brought over here.  Seraphim  00:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You're not going to win that strictly based on article size. They're both over length, so merging them will only make it twice as bad. MSJapan 01:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Rathbone, again
Basil, If you look above on this page, you will see a LOT of discussion about your reverts the last time you were here. You were blocked for these repeated reverts the last time around. Now, as soon as the block is lifted, you jump right back in and pick up where you left off - making the exact same changes you were blocked for previously. This is a good way to get yourself banned permanently. Please stop. Blueboar 13:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Notice of Formal Complaint Against Masonic Editors on Freemasonry Related Pages
[] Basil Rathbone 13:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's getting incresingly hard for me to assume good faith and to stay civil with this sort of things going on. WegianWarrior 15:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Uh huh. And by you "good faith" I assume you are referring to your persecution and serial deletion of non-masonic contributors and your 'look the other way' behavior to the actions by your 'brother' Masons - 'Brothers' you have sworn a POV oath to, under severe penalties. (said penalties are in content of Secret Society para your 'group' just deleted again today.Basil Rathbone 15:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While I can't speak for the others, I personally have not given the oaths you added (from, I'm given to understand, a published titual that are well over a century old and that are not, as far as I understand, used by any regular lodge today). When I talk about good faith, I'm refering to the Wikipedia policy that states one should TRY to assume that others acts in the best interest of the encyclopedia and that one should be patient with the others. You on the other hands does not seem to follow this policy - you seem to assume that jest because I happen to member of a certain group of people I'm automaticly trying to push a certain point of view and silence any others. In addition you're not particualy civil in your dealings with others.
 * So tell me, in the interest of openess, what organisations do you happen to be a member of? And why you feel you must be uncivil towards other editors on Wikipedia, up to and including administrators? Also, I would like you to provide some form of proof that I (since you are talking to me) has, at any time, persecuted or serial deleted anything a non-masonic or masonic editor has done on Wikipedia. WegianWarrior 04:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I for one don't see anythong relavant on your link, but & Here's your listing, Basil...
 * Grye 10:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Take a look through the diffs, the complaint was removed as being in an inappropriate place. I'm not sure if it was moved elsewhere though.ALR 11:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Forget me not
Once again, Basil Rathbone is insistant that we remove the picture of the Forget me not. Even if his claim is true (which I debate) and the forget me not was not used by Freemasons in Nazi Germany, it is now a common Masonic Emblem. Thus, it is worthy of inclusion. This has been discussed before, and the concensus was to include it. Therefore I am going to put it back. Blueboar 14:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I now realize that Basil also took out the entire paragraph relating to supression by totalitarian states such as the Nazis. Since the Nazis were great critics of Freemasonry, this MUST be included in the criticism section.  To leave it out is factually inaccurate and POV.  I am returning it as well. Blueboar 14:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You seem to not understand the concept of the summary of the "main" anti-freemasonry page principal we are operating on here.


 * There is no forget me not flower on main page so why here?


 * The para you re-inserted was completely replaced by a bullet format with entirely different and more NPOV content. Why would you want to put back a 'bad' POV para that consensus just got rid of in its re-edit of anti-freemasonry?


 * The Simple fact is Freemasons and other Occultists put Hitler in Power, Freemasonry's cloud cucko denial of this notwithstanding. Basil Rathbone 15:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * FREEMASONS put Hitler in power? - give me a break! Or better yet, prove it!  That statement is almost as offensive to me as saying that Jews put Hitler in power.
 * What is the "main" anti-freemasonry page?  If you are referring to Anti-Freemasonry, that is a different article, that deals with a different (although related) subject. It would not be appropreate to include it there.  Even if what you are claiming is true, and the Forget me not was not used by Freemasons in Nazi Germany, it has subsequently become a masonic symbol representing our continued existance dispite percecution.  Thus, it goes well with a discussion on how the Nazis and other totalitarian states persecuted Freemasons. Blueboar 16:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Blueboar identifies himself on his user page as being a Freemason.
 * Never denied it... in fact, I put the tag on my user page because I am proud of it. What has that got to do with the current argument?


 * The main anti-freemasonry page is the main anti-freemasonry page. What did you think it referred to? As you are aware the anti-freemasonry fork was created by Masonic editors such as yourself to suppress a list of criticism of Freemasonry that appeared on the main Freemasonry page. The strategy by the Masonic editors was to claim that the main freemasonry page was 'too long' so a brief summary of masonic criticism would be placed instead with a link to the main anti-freemasonry page. Of course stage two was to do a massive revert of the anti-freemasonry material acutally page should have been named rightly 'criticisms of freemasonry' since that was the material that was first moved there. Unfortunatley the Masonic Editors got a little carried away with their sanitizing and revisionary zeal and made the pages so lopsided as to stand out to some non-masonic wiki editors. I.e. you blew it Bro's. The Great Anti of the Universe (G.A.O.T.U.) strikes back...Basil Rathbone 16:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This article IS to long. Thus, following Wiki guidelines, certain section are being branched out into seperate articles.  That much is true.  However, to say that this was done to get rid of any Anti-Masonic arguments is patently false.  Anti-Masonry is a valid subject for an article all its own... as has been repeatedly stated in this talk page (see above) and at Talk:Anti-Freemasonry Anti-masonry is a complex and diverse topic.  It more than deserves its own Article.  Sure that page has changed, there are several reasonable people (Masons,Anti-Masons, and people who are neither) working to improve it.  Some sections there are indeed a bit too POV (this is true in both directions), and if you look at the talk pages there, you will see that we are working section by section to compromise and reach NPOV language.


 * Oh, and as for the German Freemasonry and the Nazi's why don't you read the two Bernheim articles you keep deleting sometime, or the Wiki pages about The Thule Society. It was the German upper class who made up the membership of 'Old Prussian Freemasonry', the German General Staff, the Industrialists, the Von's and the Counts and the Princes'. This no so coincidently is the exact same elements of German society which financed Hitlers rise to power. Of course Brother Henry Ford, propogator of the Protocols, did his bit too. Hitler and the inner core of the Nazi's were occultist anti-christians, just you like you and your masonic fraternity chums. Maybe we should do an entry on St. Maximillian Kolbe the founder of the anti-masonic Militia of Christ who was put to death inside Aushwitz with an injection of Phenol? You've been fed a bunch of revisionist nonsense by the arbitrators of the craft. German Freemasonry was deeply anti-semitic, it refused membership to all Jews. Do you understand that? Do you?Basil Rathbone 16:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I did read the articles. I do not find Bernheim's arguments convincing.  Are you saying that I am anti-christian?  AS a christian I would find that very offensive and boardering on a personal attack.  You can get banned for behavior like that.  As for German Freemasonry... I am sure there were anti-semetic and even pro-Nazi Freemasons in Germany... the fraternity is like the rest of society, it has its share of bigots.  However, you are incorrect in saying Freemasonry in Germany refused membership to Jews.  There were many Jewish Masons in Germany prior to the rise of the Nazis.  That was one reason Hitler banned Freemasonry.  He saw it as being part of a Jewish conspiracy.  Read the Bessel article.Blueboar 17:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That is correct. The majority of German lodges allowed Jewish membership at some point in the 19th century (the chart is hard to read), and it is simply ridiculous to consider 1 of 5 or 6 Grand Lodges to be indicative of the climate when it suits an argument, and then to ignore the dissolution of all 6 Grand Lodges when it doesn't suit your argument. MSJapan 21:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There were three and only three Grand Lodges of Freemasonry in Germany and all of them were deeply anti-semitic, all of them forbid Jews membership, all of their Grand Masters sent letters of congratulations to Hitler on his election, all of them continued to operate under the cover name of the Frederick the Great Association. These three Grand Lodges termed 'Old Prussian' were the only Grand Lodges recognized by UGLE and U.S. 'Regular' Grand Lodges as being Freemasons. That is a FACT. UGLE and U.S. 'regular' Grand Lodges never withdrew their recognition of these Grand Lodges even after they sent letters of congratulations and loyalty to Hitler, even though they were deeply anti-semitic and even though they had never admitted any Jews, and even though they persecuted the small 'clandestine', irregular', so-called Humanitarian Lodges that did admit Jews, the "masonic" lodges the Nazi's shut down after they were elected while leaving the large 'regular' lodges open after they went under cover with the Frederick the Great Association slight of hand. Of course the 'Old Prussian' GL's membership consisted of the General Staff, Militarists, Industrialist, and German Nobility, the very elements that brought Hitler to power.Basil Rathbone 04:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

links
I do not feel that Freemasonry is a secret society, considering that it has large buildings with the square and compass on the front, its membership is public record, etc. it is hardly secret. I have removed the link to that article. I also do not think we should have the link to Mormonism and Freemasonry. While Joseph Smith may have been influenced by, or borrowed from Freemasonry, there is no verifiable direct link between the two, dispite what that article may say. Blueboar 23:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Uhm. Yeah, Smith was killed by pissed off Masons. Most of the signs and signals used in modern LDS (Mormon) temples are direct copies of Masonic exchanges. Oh, and every dedicated adult mormon wears a square and compass on their body *every day* of their lives. His (Smith) last words were, by some accounts, "IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!" So... yeah. They're heavily related. I won't rv your edit, but I do hope you'll study the connections a tad more. Ronabop 04:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the only way to verify the first and second claims is to ask a Mormon, and I'm pretty sure they aren't telling as I've never had a Mormon comment to me regarding any parallels, and that includes Masons and non-Masons alike. As for the other points, I just read a few articles on Smith, actually, and Smith was *not* killed by "pissed-off Masons", he was shot by a mob of regular angry people, and what his last words are are complete conjecture, though the claim can be verified.  I don't as yet see a verifiable fact in your statement other than the last, though, which isn't necessarily a fact.  It could simply be a misconception. MSJapan 06:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If they are connections, I'm sure you can provide handy references so the reast of us can learn the connections too (I'm not saying there arn't connections, I'm just saying I'm not aware of them). WegianWarrior 05:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * heh heh... wouldn't that be what an article titled Mormonism and Freemasonry should be about? Grye 10:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't want to bother you (as a former mormon) with WP:NOR, but I can tell you that the connections are plentiful. Some quick googling, with no filtering (as to context) so as to not bias research (some think the connections are more meaningful than others): .... or just start with . Ronabop 04:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Forget Me Not is back, and its the correct story
     The external link article SarekOfVulcan cited above is the private rant of an ant-Masonic individual. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 09:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's several external links that give the official story of Freemasonry's use of the forget me not as a symbol.


 * Who, in the article you are citing, is an anti Mason? The compiler of the site?  This is highly unlikely, as Paul Bessel is an officer of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia, a GL in amity with UGLE.  The other writers?  Funny, looks like they are all Masons.--Vidkun 14:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Then he should keep his private musings to himself, should he not? Or are you saying this is the official position of his Grand Lodge? Tell UGLE, not me. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 16:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Alain Berheim is one of the most respected members of Quator Corranati, he was also a member of a German Grand Lodge in the early post war era, as well as being arrested by the Gestapo in Paris because he was a Jew. The Pietre Stones sites is quite prestigious within the Masonic 'E' community. You wanted 'more light' bud, you got it.Basil Rathbone 05:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Wiki, the Anti-Masonic Site
Why have I only just edited, after several days? Well I was blocked at IP level again, even though I did not contribute during the last ant-masonic atack on the main article. David Gerard acts like Basil Rathbone is his anti-Masonic “sock”. Go on block me for that. I am not going to give out my e-mail address to anti-Masons. PS if any so-called "Masons" revert the Forget-me-not stuff, then they are on the ant-Masonic side. Also since UGLE Freemasonry is defined as regular here, and since they back the use of forget me nots as symbols, those who try to trash the story are at the very least irregular. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 10:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me see if I can make this clear: you are not a GL, in and of yourself.  If a Mason removes the forget me not, that is not a Masonic offense.  You cannot make determinations, based on editorial actions of who is regular or not.  Use of a specific symbol, or non use of it, is not a determination of regularity or irregularity.  If you think it is, I would suggest asking your Grand Lodge to define what determines irregularity.--Vidkun 13:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Links are give on the subject. UGLE Lodge sites are veted for content by UGLE, and are thus de facto the voice of UGLE. Also at least two Lodges are named after the Forget Me Not, and are UGLE Lodges. Thus it is UGLE that, amongst others, promotes the official line. Since UGLE is regular, those who promote the oposite view are by definition irregular. I'm not determining regularity, UGLE is. This is true even if I am not a Freemason, but I am. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, regarding history disputes, the UGLE does NOT say that those who are in disagreement with them are Irregular. Irregularity has nothing to do with this little bit of trivia.  To confirm this, I will be email the Grand Secretary of UGLE on this matter.--Vidkun 15:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Web pages vetted by UGLE are to ensure that there is nothing contrary to the stated position of UGLE, gien the many and diverse traditions in English Masonry anything more than that would be impossible to manage. Merely because the story has been allowed through does not assure its' validity.  UGLE does not hold a formal position on the legend.  Lodges are at liberty to name themselves and in the absence of any good reason not to be named 'Forget-me-not' UGLE is unlikely to object, again just because it's been allowed through does not imply a tacit validation of the legend.  It's up for debate, both sides of the story need to be represented.ALR 16:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You want to make accusations of irregularity, go right ahead. Here are, in fact, the principles for Grand Lodge recognitions as establish by the UGLE.  You will note the absence of anything regarding disputes of historical trivia:

1. Regularity of origin: i.e. each Grand Lodge shall have been established lawfully by a duly recognised Grand Lodge or by three or more regularly constituted Lodges. 2. That a belief in the GAOTU (1) and His revealed will shall be an essential qualification for membership. 3. That all Initiates shall take their Obligation on or in full view of the open Volume of the Sacred Law, by which is meant the revelation from above which is binding on the conscience of the particular individual who is being initiated(2) 4. That the membership of the Grand Lodge and individual Lodges shall be composed exclusively of men, and that each Grand Lodge shall have no Masonic intercourse of any kind with mixed Lodges or bodies which admit women to membership. 5. That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over the Lodges under its control; i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organization, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction, and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or other Power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees. 6. That the three Great Lights of Freemasonry (namely, the Volume of the Sacred Law, the Square and the Compasses) shall always be exhibited when the Grand Lodge or its subordinate Lodges are at work, the chief of these being the Volume of the Sacred Law. 7. That the discussion of religion and politics within the Lodge shall be strictly prohibited. 8. That the principles of the Antient Landmarks, customs, and usages of the Craft shall be strictly observed.
 * --Vidkun 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Deleted anti-Masonic tag and disinformation in the section. There is no dispute within regular Freemasonry on this subject. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, now that is one heck of an accusation: that anyone who disputes it is Irregualr.  I suggest, right now, put you your bona  fides up here, as, in at least two of the jurisdictions I belong to, making false allegations about another Mason is considered a Masonic offense.--Vidkun 14:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Your argument is with UGLE, not me. I certainly will not put up "bona fides" here. Get lost, and I'm backed up both by European Human Rights and US Constitutional law in that. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Get lost, and I'm backed up both by European Human Rights and US Constitutional law in that. Um, how do those legal standards have anything to do with you telling me to get lost, Blue Square?--Vidkun 15:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a legal right to tell anyone to get lost, if they try to get Masonic ID information by putting me under duress. Who are you, the Wiccan FBI? UGLE had several cases tested, read the article section on the subject. If your trying 3RR on me, I'll sit it out. PS my IP address rotates with several other Brethren. They also say get lost, by proxy. We have the same ISP, in a small village. You started the personal stuff. Have a bumch of Forget-me-nots on us. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Additionally, I have the legal right to say I'm not getting lost, going to stay right here and continue to watch you little games unfold. I have not attempted to put you under duress, you have made accusations here that you choose to not back up.  You have made claims of irregularity against noted Masons.  If you honestly believed your accusations to be valid, you would make them in an official venue, not here.--Vidkun 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Who wrote that? Please sign your stuff. I have made no accusations on the subject in hand. I have pointed to several places that state UGLE's de factco position. I have also defended myself. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 16:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You have stated, and I quote: "those who try to trash the story are at the very least irregular." That is an accusation of irregularity by you, towards anyone who expresses a difference of opinion on a historical matter.--Vidkun 16:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes I have reported, (as a Freemason or not), that UGLE seems to take that position, in the public domain. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 16:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, you made the statement that anyone disagreeing with the history of the forget me not (as you list it) is irregular. Not UGLE.  Or are you now claiming to speak for UGLE?--Vidkun 16:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * NOTE If you read above, and follow the links, any reader can see that I cited correctly the links I added on this subject. Vidkun has added anotations to make them read as the oposite, but these links show the "official" line taken by UGLE. I will not be trapped by any User into so-called 3RR, so he can peddle his POV. Strangly, ALL other "MASONS" are quiet, leaving ‘‘me’’ to defend that factual truth on my own. "Thanks" Brethren. Sitting any blocking out if given... Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 16:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Note none of the articles cited are listed, on those pages as being official policy of the UGLE. User:Skull 'n' Femurs has edited the page to place the "not an official spokesman" tag on at least one of the websites listed in the external links section.  His POV is that there is one official history of the forget me not, and that disagreement over this point of view constitutes irregularity, which amounts to an accusation, and a personal attack against other editors of this page.  His edits about the official or unofficial status of authors cited are also personal attacks, which he complains about when other editors point out the same information on HIS cited links.--Vidkun 17:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Wibble wibble. UGLE for ever. POV. If Freemasonry was a religion I would be on CNN by now, Jumping up and down, in my apron, with an AK47, etc. But it is not... so I am not. Author's status is not verifiable as Masonic, because they do not need to prove that they are 1001st degree Pangendrems, just like I did not. They only add "ranks" to impress people. No Mason needs to use any rank above Bro. Even then they are not official unless they can prove that they are official. I explained how the English Lodge sites are vetted by UGLE, hence the "official" tag. If private authors want to stitch gold brade on their nightware, and parade about, who am I to stop them? I do not run round the streets in an apron, and I wrote why, at the start of this. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 17:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

PS As I can still "edit" up to the time I sign this, the anti-Masonic "gods" 'n' "socks" of Wiki must think that the ant-masonic job is being done for them, and are waiting for the UGLE PoV loyalist Mason to go off to my Lodge. That's what I doing now QED... Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 17:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed History Merger
The History of Freemasonry article is puny. Surely the history section is better in that article? Could discussion on strengthening and structuring the History of Freemasonry article be conducted over there and the idea for keeping the history in this article over here? JASpencer 23:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI - I have been planning a major rewrite of the history article for some time now... but I keep getting side tracked to other Freemasonry related articles due to some of the recent POV additions etc. I intend to expand what is there to include brief discussion of some of the other Origin theories, and to add the rest of history after 1717 (and not just England... also America, Canada, France, India, South America, etc. etc.).  Ambitious yes... but they do say be bold.  I hope to have a first draft posted in a month or so (still checking my citations and facts). Blueboar 00:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the history section from this article and Anti-Freemasonry should be mered into History of Freemasonry. Ardenn 00:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeup I agree with Ardenn Seraphim  01:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have no objections to Ardenn's concept. While this article definitely does need a history section to outline the basic history of the fraternity, it could be made shorter... perhaps some of the details could be shifted over to (or, alternatively, simply copied on) the history page. On the other hand... I will be incoporating all this into the material I am working on anyway. Blueboar 02:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Masonic Secrets Section
[Introductory Commentary: Have placed this section on Talk Page for discussion after numerous Masonic Editors kept deleting it to determine their reasoning or offer suggestions for improvement. Quite concerned about ill will being shown by Masonic Editors on Freemasonry related pages as they insist a poorly researched section on 'Forget Me Not Flower' be kept on main page while being discussed but insist this section be removed while being discussed. If the freemasonry related subjects are to be NPOV then obviously there must be sections related to their secretative rituals. Also feel continual deletion of Wiki link to Secret society and Mormonism and freemasonry by Masonic editors is further evidence of the disrespect and disinterest shown by this same 'Corporate Entity' to Wikipedia rules and spirit.]


 * Interesting approach, I suppose by posting this data here it can be legitimately placed under discuaaion as to whether it's useful to the article as a whole, and whilst under discussion can't really be deleted. Whilst I am amused that it has taken so long for the point to be realised I'm unsure of what it is you feel the need to discuss now?  The items are posted with no discussion.  So, is this posted as a suggestion for inclusion in the article, or not?  Are these posted as authoritative, if so how are you planning on substantiating that?  Have you done any further research on the ngoing validity, or criticisms, of your sources?  If this is just an effort to get clearly contentious information onto WP, in a manner which limits the opportunity for it to be removed, then at least make that clear so that the majority can just ignore these sections and move onto more useful discussion.ALR 16:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Signs of the three Degrees


1- Entered Apprentice: Cut my throat and tongue. 2- Fellow Craft: Cut open my chest, and put my heart and lungs on my left shoulder. 3- Master Mason: Put my bowels out. Resource: Duncan's Ritual

The Three Degrees never did this, above! And I should know, as I'm a fan. Darth Dalek 20:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * improperly cited. repair or it will be deleted Grye 06:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He said it's from Duncan's Ritual, which is already listed as a reference elsewhere. Seraphim  07:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Looked up, but The Three Degrees are not in this book. Darth Dalek 20:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Oaths of the three Degrees
1- In the First Degree, Apprentice He swears, with his hand on the Bible, "I (name), in the presence of Almighty God, most solemnly promise and swear that I will always hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the arts, parts of points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry... binding myself under the penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and my body buried in the rough sands of the see..."

2- The Second Degree, Fellow Craft He swears on the Bible, in the presence of Almighty God, "under the penalty than of having my breast open... and my heart and lungs thrown over my left shoulder... so help me God". 3- The Third Degree, Master Mason He swears "under the penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burn to ashes... so help me God". Resource: Duncan's Ritual
 * improperly cited. repair or it will be deleted Grye 06:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He said it's from Duncan's Ritual with is already used as a reference elsewhere. Seraphim  07:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Read WP:CITE. What's there is improper form. MSJapan 14:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok so that means we have to fix it. Not delete it I guess i'll look it up. Seraphim  17:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The big reason is that it's inaccurate in modern terms - these are old, and they've really got no place in this particular article. Since this is a general article, jurisdiction specific material is irrelevant.  On top of all that, it was cited incorrectly, which is really the most minor of the problems.MSJapan 17:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Your just wasting the non-masonic editors time. You have absolutely no interest in having any section titled 'Masonic Secrets'. Please give us a list of any material that is critical of Freemasonry you have ever contributed to this page, or any material that is critical of Freemasonry that you have not deleted from this page.Basil Rathbone 15:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The penalties/obligations cited, from Duncan's Ritual, are at least decades out of date. Britain has dropped them altogether, and in America the phraze used is "binding myself symbolically..." i.e., not actually to the penalty. It is clear, also, that from the thousands of books written by Freemasons on Freemasonry, that Freemasons are not expected to keep the "Secrets" secret. In fact, there are no secrets in Freemasonry. Any observant scholar of Freemasonry would have noted that the Ritual of Freemasonry is about Hiram Abiff, who is murdered because he will NOT reveal the Masonic secrets. Thus the Ritual contradicts, and annuls, the symbolic obligations, by proposing an equal likelihood that obeying the symbolic penalty will lead to the Mason being killed. Both the symbolic penalties and the Ritual are mythological, not real accounts of what has or what might happen.

Royal Arch Secret Oath and Word
This so-called higher degree of Freemasonry is considered by many Masons to be the completion of the first three degrees of Masonry. In North America it is part of the 'York Rite' of Freemasonry. The Oath in the Royal Arch goes one beyond that of the Third Degree and does not except murder and treason as is contained in the Master Mason oath; “I will aid and assist a companion Royal Arch Mason, when engaged in any difficulty, and espouse his cause, so far as to extricate him from the same, if in my power, whether he be right or wrong. A companion Royal Arch Mason’s secrets, given me in charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable, in my breast as in his own, murder and treason not excepted.”

The Secret Word of the Royal Arch is JAHBULON a triparte word displayed on a triangle or delta. The first part JAH represents Yahwah the God of the Hebrews, the second part BUL represents Baal the God of the Babylonians, the third part ON represents Osirus the God of the Egyptians. Reports prepared for various Protestant Denominations, including the Church of England, specifically singled this 'secret' word out for attention under the charge of blasphemy, as Baal and Osirus are names sometimes associated with the Devil. The word can be also pronounced Diabolon when including the Greek letter Delta, representing the triangle with the three parts written on each side. Resources: The Brotherhood Stephen Knight. Darkness Visible, Walton Hannah Basil Rathbone 05:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * improperly cited. repair or it will be deleted Grye 06:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He cited it correctly. Seraphim  07:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No he didn't. There's no publisher listed, the formatting is wrong, no date, etc.  MSJapan 14:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As Masonic Editors such as yourself have shown themselves to be completely unwilling to accept any material on these pages that is critical of Freemasonry or exposes it's secrets it is pointless to engage in any discussion with them, because of their exhibited bad faith in achieving NPOV. Masonic Editors could care less about 'copyright' of 170 year old images that are well known and well known to be in the public domain under no copyright provisions what so ever.Basil Rathbone 14:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd point out that no one who is not interested in the topic would know what these are at all. Well-known to you, maybe, but not the public.  also, as Duncan's is still being published as a historical curiousity, it most certainly is still under copyright, as shown here  The publishing date is 1986, and what you have is certainly not an original copy, if you even scanned it. MSJapan 17:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that the writing is still under copyright does NOT matter. It can still be used as a source. Provided it's not plagarized and it's properly cited. Seraphim  17:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I have to agree, in so far as the copyright issue goes. It is a matter of fair use.  However, the verifiability of the information is lacking.--Vidkun 17:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said before when this originally came up, attacking the source is ok, but attacking the information because it's suppossed to be "under copyright" is just rediculious. Also other people on here have mentioned that Duncans Ritual is an accepted masonic source, and even a few editors have mentioned owning it, and masonic websites sell it.  I guess the Knight source is iffy.  Seraphim  23:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Owning Duncans does not lend any credence to its credibility as a source. I collect antique books, hence I own a copy of a source some 130 years old.  I also own an up to date ritual book which I actually use, in fact I'll be using it heavily for the next couple of weeks having been asked to participate in an installation in a month :)  Duncans is not a credible source, largely because of the age, but also because it is not representative of Freemasonry as a wholeALR 23:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not old according to MSJapan "Duncan's is still available commercially, and thus it is still under copyright. Taking a picture from an old edition doesn't suddenly make it public domain." apparently it has newer editions. Also nothing is representative of freemasonry as a whole, there is already a note of that in the Organizational structure section "There is no central Masonic organizational structure or authority, and in any event many practices are determined by Lodge custom, so any general description will inevitably be inaccurate in respect of some places.".  If we discredit a source because it's not representative as a Whole, we need to remove other large sections of the article. (membership requirements, principals and activities, ritual and symbolism, basically any section not about history)  Seraphim  23:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You clearly didn't take in the MSJs comment about it being available as a result of its historical significance, rather than being a current reference. The age is my objection to it as a source.ALR 23:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The only way for his comments to be valid, is if he was referring to it as a current reference. Since the book is over 130 years old, if it was not updated it would be public domain.  Since it's not public domain it's obviously updated to stay current, and no longer a 130 year old source. You can't have it both ways :) Duncan's is the only ritual book that we have had presented so far, therefore it's the only source we have.  Of course if you wanted to include the information from your "updated" ritual book, and cite it properly we can include that.   Seraphim  00:05, 8

February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not updated, but the current publisher still holds copyright to their version, and the uploaded picture is certainly not from an original edition (you can see the type on the other side through the page). It is published as a work of historical merit and reference only.  The most important thing, though, which everyone has forgotten again since I last said it is that the Royal Arch is not part of the three degrees of Freemasonry that pertain to this article.  Therefore, copyvio or fair use, it doesn't belong here. MSJapan 02:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You're incorrect as far as it not being updated. According to [amazon] it's on 3rd edition and is copyright april 12th 1976.  If they were not updating it the publisher cannot hold onto the copyright, since copyright in the US for books and published items last at a maximum 70 years.  The publisher cannot just decide to insist something is copyrighted, after a set period of time the writing enters the public domain. Do a quick lookup on copyright if you don't believe me.  Seraphim

02:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll repeat, again. Copyright really isn't important to me, the validity of Duncans as a source is.  duncans is not a reliable source.  I also disagree that the contribution adds value to the article therefore see no justification for any citation.  As you mention downthread, you don't see Rathbones contributions as relavent, therefore any similar contribution using a reliable source is also inappropriate.ALR 07:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Could be just a new intro, which is what happens with a lot of books. I know the local Lodge library has iterations of the text from original to modern edition, and I will check, but the point still stands that it is material that is irrelevant to this article. MSJapan 02:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If it's just a new intro the text itself is not copyrighted just the intro, which doesn't seem to be the case. Also i'll agree that the stuff specific to the Royal Arch doesn't belong. However other things that are secrets of masonry in general should be included.  If you remember it was pointed out to me earlier that all lodges have the same material (rituals/symbols/signals/identifiers), it is just what they consider secret that changes between lodges.  Seraphim  02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

No, that wasn't what was said to you at all. The rituals are not all exactly the same, and some are more different than others. It also was not said that what was considered secret was different, but that the secrets themselvesare different, which is why I cited the story from Freemasonry for Dummies, which said in short: "The Masons who came to the Lodge were unable to identify themselves in any way that the Lodge members were able to recognize." So, the only thing all these pictures are doing is giving historical information relevant in one jurisdiction 130 years ago, which is also why none of this discussion - Royal Arch or otherwise - is particularly relevant to this article. This article is supposed to be a general overview. There is no need to "expose Masonic secrets!!!111!!" in order to understand the Craft, especially when the validity of any of the material pertaining to it is questionable.

Frankly, I'd really like to know what possible value you think that including that material has, other than NPOV claims, because NPOV really doesn't apply when there's no position to take; the fact of existence is not disputable, but the content is (by uotside source), and there's no way to 100% verify any of it to the expectations of WP policies. In short, what is so important about the secrets that you can't possibly understand what the Masons are without them?

I'd also like to add that potential candidates don't even care about secrets and handshakes; they're more interested in what we do in terms of activities, charity, and the opportunities we provide, not the esoterica. Yet this very item seems to have become the entire focus of the last week because of two people - one who has a blatant agenda, and another who says they don't know anything about the topic. At this point we have gone way beyond NPOV, and I'd simply like to know why this is such an issue. I would also furthermore state that if the answer isn't anything more than "because", we should really drop the whole thing and work on the other more pressing issues in the article. MSJapan 04:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I was told by ALR that " I'd also say that I may have given the wrong impression about how the secrets vary. It's not so much that the secrets themselves vary, but what are considered to be secrets. In some cases the entire ritual in others, such as my own, only the recognitions." which means that the contents of the secrets are the same, it's what is considered secret that varies, if you want to argue that with him be my guest, however that's what I was told. I'd also like to point out that I personally do not believe in disclosing what the contents of the secrets are, just explain what they consist of.  If you read the top section on here you can see what I am planning on adding.  I personally don't feel this information in here should be added, however the secrets must be mentioned on the page.  That is why i'm saying over and over to not attack the content over copyright status, but to attack the source itself.  What I said was "However other things that are secrets of masonry in general should be included." I did not say "OMG we should put TUBALCANE on the page!".  It doesn't matter what potential candidates care about, this is not a propaganda article for potential candidates to look over and make a decision on masonry, it is an encyclopedia article on freemasonry, to barely mention that the secrets exist is not encyclopedic.  Also I would like to point out, that I believe ALR to be a more valid source of information then any of the other masonic editors on this page.  He is very candid about what he can and cannot say, and admits that sometimes he cannot participate in an NPOV fashion, which has earned alot of respect from me. I personally do not feel any of this information Basil is trying to add is appropriate, and i'm expecting you guys to tear it apart, however the fact that you feel it's not NPOV to add more information about the secrets beyond what is already in the document is beyond me. I guess when I eventually write my section up you will be there to attack it, and i'm looking forward to that discussion.  Seraphim  05:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd also like to point out that I personally do not believe in disclosing what the contents of the secrets are, just explain what they consist of. Your behaviour belies that espoused position. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, that Duncans is not a viable source in the context of the article.  The discussion is going round and around so fast it's starting to cause dizzyness.  As previously discussed, at length and at the expense of any meaningful discussion, the existence of secret material is highlighted in the first paragraph, no more than that is required since more depth adds nothing to the article.  Incidentally I've only said I'm not going to contribute to the Anti page as it is something that I personally have been affected by, hence I do not consider position as a contributor to be tenable.ALR 07:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying the article should be included, i'm just pointing out holes in the reasons people are giving for not including it. I'm all for saying that the contents of the secrets are beyond the scope of the article. What i've been arguing against is people claiming that Duncan's is a non-viable source because it's 1)Copyrighted and 2)too old, which is not the case. If you want to see my argument as to why the first paragraph is not enough, view the top section on this talk page, I was able to show, using sources already used in the article (which means they were already approved by editors on this page) that the existance of some of the secrets can be verified, and that those secrets are not all "rituals" in the normal meaning of the word. As blueboar said " You know that Masons have secrets, that vary in content from the entire ritual in some jurisdictions, to just recognition signs, grips and passwords in others. " and he suggested I write up a section. Once all the Basil crap gets cleared off this page, I intend to start drafting a NPOV section that just mentions that the secrets exist. I feel it is extremely POV and unverifiable to say what the contents of the secrets are as basil was trying to do. Once all the basil crap gets cleared off and people have calmed down for a few days i'll start work on the section, making sure it's posted and critiqued here before it's added into the article. Seraphim  02:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I completely support Seraphim's creation of a "Masonic Secrets" section in the form she suggests. I would like to be of any assistance in it's creation as possible.  The article severly lacks representation that masonic secrets exist in the forms that they do, which may lead people to fill in the blanks with their imagination.  This can be very dangerous, as people can imagine the worst far easier than reality.  I would like to add that many masons feel that the "true," yet "unoffical" secrets of Freemasonry lie not in the modes of recognition or degree work, but in the experience of participating in the ceremonial ritual.  I don't want this to come across as POV propaganda, but is a valid opinion of many masons and should somehow be represented as opinion in the article.  I would also like to point out a source that may help you in writing this section, "Freemasons for Dummies" by Christopher Hodapp.  It has been mentioned several times before, but I figured pointing you to pages 17 and 18 would be helpful for this section.  These pages go into masonic secrets, modes of recognition and the differences they have in different jurisdictions.  None of it is a reveal, but it is a good source for exactly what you've laid out.  Good luck :)  Chtirrell 03:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Restored parts deleted by Basil Rathbone
This morning Basil Rathbone deleted two parts of the article, claiming to move them to the discussionpage for 'discussion'. Since five (5) hours have gone since the first section was deleted without him posting them here, I've put them back in - it's clear to me he had no intention to discuss the section and paragraph in question in the first place, but just wanted them out of the article to pursue his own POV.

The edits in question by Basil (the time listed is the timestamp on the edits as it appers on my screen):
 * The first paragraph of the section on Criticism, persecution, and prosecution(06:27), restored by SarekOfVucan (06:54)
 * The first paragraph of the section on Criticism, persecution, and prosecution again (06:57), restored by Grye (07:43)
 * The section on the Forget-me-not (05:42) and the notes (05:56) relating to it. They were restored by Arden, but Basil deleted the section on the Forget-me-not and the notes again (06:24). Restored by me (10:44)

Now, I'm all for discussing things, based on reputable sources, but to cut stuff out of the article, claim that one are going to place it on the talk page and then dont... thats dishonest, to put it politly. Basil had a whooping five hours and 22 minutes to place the section here on the talkpage, but he didn't.

And before either side pipes up.. yes, I know there are two stories that are told about the background for the use of the forget-me-not - both should be reported, and it should be reported that there exists a disagreement over the background. It don't change the fact that the Forget-me-not is a common symbol in a number of GL today. WegianWarrior 10:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There were already a couple of threads on this talk page devoted to this section, so I felt this sufficed. I would like to add that MANY times Masonic editors have deleted contributions by non-masons saying 'moving to talk page for further discussion' and never moved it, and never discussed it. WegianWarrior knows this as he has been around here long enough. I note WegianWarrior identifies himself on his user page as being a Freemason.Basil Rathbone 11:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If you thought it was sufficient, why claim you were going to move (my emphasis) the section and paragraph to the talkpage? I've seen a lot of calls for discussion of things on the talkpage, but not moves to talkpage - perhaps you could be as good as to provide links to a few diffs where this is stated (I just scanned the latest 1000 edits in the edit history, and found no mention (other than yours) of moving anything to the talkpage)?
 * And yes, I do identify myself not only as a mason, but as a drinker of coffee, owner of goldfish and a fan of Red Dwarf. I do however note that Basil Rathbone don't see it fit to tell us anything about himself... I guess he might have something to hide. WegianWarrior 12:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please post a listing of any sources or publications that you consider to be legitimate criticisms of Freemasonry. Please post a list of any websites that are critical of freemasonry that you do not want deleted from this page. Please post a list of Masonic secrets including images of signs that you are willing to have posted to this page. Please post a list of any non-masonic authors that have posted material to this page that you have not personally harrassed and sought to have permanently banned.Basil Rathbone 14:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please post a significantly good post, that the masses won't revert. Grye 09:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Restored parts deleted by Grye and SarekOfVulcan

 * Please justify your repeated deletion of the following long standing external and wiki links from this page.Basil Rathbone 11:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The Forget Me Not Section


NOTE: The section below has since been completely re-edited on the main page.Darth Dalek 20:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Shortly after the rise to power of Adolf Hitler, possibly as early as the year 1934, there was an awareness that Freemasonry was in danger. The German Grand Lodge of the Sun In Bayreuth (one of the pre-war German Grand Lodges), realised the imminent problems which faced them and started to wear this little blue flower, the Forget-Me-Not, in place of the Square and Compasses, to identify them as Freemasons. This was to allay attraction by the Nazis in the process of their confiscation and appropriation of Masonic Lodges and property. Freemasonry at this time was underground and thus the Brethren had need of a readily recognised, but covert, indentification. This little blue flower worn in the lapel distinguished those refusing to allow the Light of Freemasonry to be extinguished and during the Nazi era marked a Brother whether he was in the cities - or even in theConcentration Camps. The Grand Lodge of the Sun was re-opened in Bayreuth in 1947 by Past Grand Master Beyer and a blue shaped pin shaped as a Forget-Me-Not was adopted as the official emblem of the first annual convention of the survivors of the bitter years of semi-darkness which brought the Light of Freemasonry again into the Temples. In 1948 this pin was adopted as an official Masonic emblem at the first Annual Convent of the United Grand Lodges of Germany, Ancient Free & Accepted Masons. This as an honour to those valiant Brethren who worked under adverse and extreme conditions. Theodor Vogel, Grand Master of the newly-formed United Grand Lodges of Germany. At the Grand Masters Conference in the United Slates, presented a Forget-Me-Not pin to each of the representatives of the Grand Jurisdictions which enjoyed Fraternal relations with the United Grand Lodges of Germany. This simple flower blossomed forth to become the Fraternity's meaningful emblem and today is one of the most widely worn pins by Freemasons, all around the world. Two UGLE lodges are named after the flower.

Basil Rathbone 11:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1)  The Forget me not story, accessed February 6, 2006.
 * 2) Das Vergissmeinnicht The Forget-Me-Not Accessed February 6, 2006. +
 * 3) The Forget-Me-Not Accessed February 6, 2006. +
 * 4) The Masonic Brotherhood of The Blue Forget-Me-Not, by Allen E. Roberts. Accessed February 6, 2006. +
 * 5) The Brotherhood of the Blue Forget-Me-Not, by William N. Wine. Accessed February 6, 2006. +
 * 6) History of the Forget Me Not Lodge No 9035 Accessed February 6, 2006.


 * I don't like this section, I think it has been completely discredited by research, and that by and large the more credible Masonic websites have dropped it from their repetoire. I invite your commentary.Basil Rathbone 11:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that I've heard. I will, however, ask some of those researchers who know. MSJapan 14:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't you start with Alain Bernheim 33rd Degree, Quator Corranati? Oh wait I forgot you don't think he is a legitimate source to quote from because he has shown his anti-masonry 'agenda' for exposing the Forget me not Flower Legend and the relationship between Regular German Freemasonry and the Nazi's. The moral of the story? There is no legitimate criticism of Freemasonry. All criticism of Freemasonry is 'Anti-Masonic', and all who 'disseminate' views that are critical of Masonry are Anti-Masons. Welcome all to Masonology 101.Basil Rathbone 15:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Please note that QC is a UGLE Craft Lodge, therefore no member as a UGLE Mason is higher than a third degree. Wilst there may be a conflicting view with respect to the assertion as cited it is more appropriate to include that in the discussion rather than excise the section completely.  Put in he debate if you have an issue.ALR 16:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticism, persecution, and prosecution Introductory Para
Freemasonry has historically attracted criticism and suppression from the politically extreme right (Nazi Germany), and the politically extreme left (the former Communist states in Eastern Europe). The fraternity has encountered both applause for “founding” and opposition for supposedly thwarting liberal democracies (such as the United States of America). It has also attracted criticism and suppression from theocratic states and organised religions for supposed competition with religion, or heterodoxy within the Fraternity itself. Basil Rathbone 11:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like this paragraph I think it has been discredited by research and is by and large unsubstantiated, over-the-top, Masonic propaganda. I think it is NPOV and not a credit to this page. I invite your comments.Basil Rathbone 11:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I do like this paragraph. There is nothing POV in it... just facts... Freemasonry HAS drawn criticism from the extreme political right and left, as well as theocratic states (such as the Papal States in the 1700s and 1800s) and modern religions.  To leave this out would be POV as it would not discuss some of the key criticisms of Freemasonry.  Please cite (here) the research you refer to. Blueboar 14:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * first of all, it's supposed to be NPOV. Second of all, it's true, but the second sentence may be a bit redundant if you consider the intent to be clear from the first sentence, which is debatable. MSJapan 14:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The para is just 'sheep dipping', and you know it. Reductio Absurdum. It is not encyclopedic, it is a new para 'crafted' on to the body entitled 'criticisms of freemasonry'(which you and other masonic editors previously deleted). To you there is no legitimate criticism of Masonry. Don't you think the wee little fact that the Grand Masters of Regular Freemasonry in Germany sent letters of congratulations and loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi's on their election contradict the suppositions contained in this paragraph? Why did the Nazi's arrest and execute in Auschwitz the leading Anti-Masonic Catholic Priest in Europe, St. Maximilian Kolbe? Why won't you accept published papers from Quator Corranti members on this?Basil Rathbone 15:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as you haven't cited them, there's no way to check. Also, you're using historical hindsight.  You assume that everyone in Germany knew what Hitler was going to do on the day he got elected and thus the letters were designed to permit him to do whatever he wanted.  One of the tenets of Freemasonry is loyalty to the country, and you've created a  conspiracy where none exists by making an incorrect assumption.  The Nazis came to power because Germany was a mess and the prior government did nothing about it.
 * The Nazis arrested a lot of people, and I'll bet Kolbe got arrested because he was Catholic more than anything else. Seehere for info on Nazis and Catholics.
 * Your problem is that you are constantly making universal assumptions on the basis of one non-authoritative source, or the derivatives of one non-authoritative source. I will also point out you used Bernbeim's paper to state German Lodges didn't take Jews. Bernbeim has a chart that shows that all but the Old Prussians did, and did so since the 19th century, so don't tell us we are misreading sources and not accepting certain sources.  What we are not accepting is misuse of sources so you can say things that the sources do not. MSJapan 16:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

"I'll bet Kolbe got arrested (by the Nazis) because he was Catholic" What about PIUS XII the Vatican guy who quite liked contemporaneous Germany ? Darth Dalek 20:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This paragraph could use citing. As it stands, it fails WP:V. I would reccomend finding the statements or actions by the states referenced above and creating the paragraph again with the specific statements or actions referenced, as opposed to a generalization. For example, and I'm making this up, obviously "In the Republic of Kabukistan, a theocratic state run by Rutubians, Fremasons were required to kill all of their female offspring (cite). Conversly, in Nazi Slevankia, Fremasons were required to inject themselves with mad-cow plasmids.(cite) The society has attracted praise from Leonard Grimes for founding Antartica (cite), and criticizm from Ralph Wiggum for stifling democracy in North Bearing Strait. (cite)" Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hipocrite Why not do all that yourself? Thanks in advance. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 00:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer
I removed the disclaimer at the top of the article per No disclaimer templates. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't fit the policy. Not only does it not duplicate an existing template, that was a referenced official statement that it is important to keep in mind.  While this is a general article, there is no standardization within Freemasonry as a whole, and what one person says may or may not apply. MSJapan 16:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It duplicates the General Disclaimer, specifically "None of the authors, contributors, sponsors, administrators, sysops, or anyone else connected with Wikipedia in any way whatsoever can be responsible for the appearance of any inaccurate or libelous information or for your use of the information contained in or linked from these web pages." If you want a statement that Freemasonry cannot be spoken for by anyone, please put that in the article, not in a disclaimer template. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Additionally, it violates WP:ASR. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What i'm pointing out is that it wasn't a template. However, the statement was slightly misused, so I have fixed it such that it follows its original intent. MSJapan 16:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Point out where it states 'please note' is not encyclopedic, other than in your own mind. MSJapan 16:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please note is an instruction to the reader. We do not instruct the reader, we inform them. WP:ENC. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the statement is valid and cited and relevant otherwise, so I'll just remove "please note"? If that was the only problem, you could have easily removed "please note" instead of rving. MSJapan 16:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Review the diff. . Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 17:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Now it's just written wrong, because where it is now has nothing to do with the content of the paragraph that it is tacked onto. MSJapan 17:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * {sofixit} . But not as a disclaimer template. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 17:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured article Removal
I noticed the template, and the discussion was from two years ago. i think it is safely closed, so I've removed the tag. MSJapan 17:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Which I have reinserted, because it is a renom. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 17:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll point out here as well. Why?  The template for featured clearly identifies the featured article as a previous version of current.  Where's the issue? MSJapan 17:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The template that says "it was once featured" is . Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 17:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, former fa is for after removal. I checked.  As it hasn't been removed yet, it's not the right one.  Read the top of this page, and read what the words in the FA box say, and explain to me why it is an issue to leave it as is. MSJapan 17:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This article no longer "one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community." I highly suggest that you do not attempt to engage inWikilawyering here. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 17:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me quote "which means that it or a previous version". Let me also note that the term wikilawyering is also described as a pejorative, which can be construed as a personal attack.  Highly suggest comes across as an attempt to coerce.--Vidkun 17:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This page lists articles that used to be Featured Articles, but were demoted because they no longer met the Featured Article standard. Featured articles can only be demoted through a consensus derived through discussion at the Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates page. The removal discussions for the former featured articles listed below can be found in the featured article removal candidates archive. Of course, the articles listed here do not have to stay here: Be Bold in updating and improving these pages, and help bring them back to Featured Article status. See below for some examples of re-premoted articles. This page has not yet been demoted, therefore the former template doesn't apply. --Vidkun 18:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If you believe that I have engaged in personal attacks, I suggest that you follow the steps listed in WP:DR. I believe that this article is no longer of the standards to be "featured," so I proposed it for removal. This was opposed, above, because the "featured" template refers to a previous version, and thus, even if the current version is not quality, it's fine as a featured article. This argument is Wikilawyering - the template says a previous version because not all article are monitored at all times - not because featured status is a right that the article owns for all times. I am happy to help work the article back to featured (and have already taken the first step - by removing a blatently policy violating template, and converting the references to the most new format). However, do not Wikilawyer to try to "win," because you will "lose." This is not cooercive - it's a fact. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like you have an issue with the way the template for featured article is worded. Maybe you should suggest it be changed, to simply say a version (with link to the FEATURED version) of this article is considered a featured article.  Works for me, and states accurately what the situation is, with little chance for someone who is not savvy to wiki policies (such as someone just coming to look here for the first time) to misinterpret the statement.--Vidkun 18:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No. I will not argue this policy with you here go to the right place. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the templates for FA on the top that are there currently are fine. I do understand how MSJapan could feel that the Wikilawyering comment could be considered a personal attack. Let's try to stay cool so we can beat the POV vandals. United we stand. Ardenn 18:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. Note: this popped up on my talk page, but is not editable, (and so must have been added by a "high end" user, up the Wiki ladder)
 * "No disclaimer templates.

Please review Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I replied to this on Hipocrite's talk page, as I do not believe the statement applies here. MSJapan 16:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)"

Since I have just got back editor rights, how can this apply to me Hipocrite? How about taking it off my talk page, and giving an big apology here? Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 21:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 2. Hipocrite has done some “coding magic” and blocked the Notes section from we common editors, so I’m reverting it back to the last editoral-able history (MS Japan’s). It is no use upgrading a section with code so we cannot edit it. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 21:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To add a new reference superscript, put the tag on the article page. There is no need for anyone to ever have to edit the notes again, and they will automatically sort. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 21:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We editors want to write in English, as far as posible, without going to coding school. Also we need to edit refs already there. Also I've spent alot of unpaid time in research on this section. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 21:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to insist that you review WP:CIVIL, and follow it. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 23:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You make it sound like he is doing something bad. He just updated the references in the article to fit the new way to add references on wikipedia. Seraphim  22:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Adding more info to my comment cause i was a bit unclear. If you go to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php you can see that recently the wikimedia platform was updated to include a ref tag, this was added to make adding references to articles much easier, and to replace the old reference way where one reference gets a new listing every time it's mentioned in the article, which adds unnecessary length, and creates more work for the editors.  It is an automated way to do things, and is the new proper way to do it. After you're done with your "major" edit, if Hipocrite doesn't put them back up I will, since it's the proper way to do it.  You said "We editors want to write in English, as far as posible, without going to coding school. Also we need to edit refs already there." what is scaring you off is the ref tag.  It's actually much easier then the code your already using, and it makes it so there is no need to "edit refs already there".  Seraphim  22:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticism, persecution, and prosecution
A "new" re-written edit is in WIP, so please let me finish. Thanks. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 21:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't destroy the references section and I will. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 21:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Edits of that magnitude to a controvercial article require talk page discussion. If you are reverted, please do not revert war and instead discuss it on the talk page. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 21:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Hipocrite You reverted the references I needed, after I put a polite note here. The section is as near NPOV, when I've finished it as WE can get here. It has taken into account ALL recent chat traffic, including the ani-Masonic stuff. You have a very high hadded use of your power, proved QED, but have added nothing constructive. How about reporting yourself? Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 21:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 'NOTE My edit has ended. Thanks to S of V for the notice put on the main article page. I'm sorry for any data lost due to me having to put internal and external links back by hand. Hence taken so long to do it! Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry Fuzzypeg if I have undone your work re-ordering "Notes" Section. I will go back and fix the links now. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Who is fuzzypeg? Seraphim  23:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Stopped fixing as above to avoid an edit war. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I missed any edits to the 1st Para of "Criticism, persecution, and prosecution", but I could not find any since my last "edit blocking". ;) Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice re-write S'n'F. Thanks Blueboar 01:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL
I put this copy Here Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC) "Please review WP:CIVIL. Thanks. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 23:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

No coz I've a life to get back to, and you caused alot of work for me, just to get back to were constructive editors had got to." Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 23:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The References / Notes
It's actually much much much easier and less time consuming to do it this way. Here is a little explanation on how to do it. To add a reference if you were familiar with the old method, where you would have put  put  example. If you added to a paragraph, and the cite in the notes section was "# The Grande Loge Nationale Francaise (GLNF), accessed February 6, 2006." all you have to do now is put " " into the article where you had the and you will get the same results. Look in the article or ask any questions here if your still confused. Seraphim 23:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well you did it anyway. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 00:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

edit explanation boxes
I am noticing a trend that I would like to ask people to stop. Due to the recent revert wars, we have begun to use the edit explanation boxes to leave in depth explanations on why the revision/revert is needed. That is what the talk page is for. The edit explanation box (ie the text we see when reviewing the edit history) should be a brief statement on what was done. Just my two cents worth. You can go back to ignoring me now! Blueboar 02:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I only use it if the reason against it is already covered in the talk page. For example the last edit where SnF removed the images, the reason for keeping the images was already on the talk page, it was just being ignored.


 * What also needs to stop happening is people making edits, and leaving non descriptive of false edit comments. I already brought this up on SnF's talk page.  Any time you make a content change you need to include a reason for that change in the comment, that's why the box is called the "Edit summary".  This lets people easially see what you changed. If your comments can't fit in the comment box, then create a section on the talk page and refer to that in your comment. Also remember that the minor edit flag is only to be used for "spelling corrections, minor formatting, and minor rearrangement of text" otherwise some major edits won't show up for alot of editors.  Seraphim  02:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Seraphim, I slightly disagree with you on this. To my way of thinking, the edit summary sould highlight what was changed, the talk page should be where you put why it was changed.  But I don't want to make a big a deal about it.  It was just a request.  thanks Blueboar 14:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is very clear on what the Edit Summary is according to WP:ES "Even if short, an edit summary should strive to answer the question, "Why did you make this edit?". " that's what I follow. Seraphim  20:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * However, from Help:Edit summary, "Most projects highly recommend using it to its full capacity, to summarize and/or explain the changes made." as well as "In the case of a small addition to an article, it is highly recommended to copy the full text of this addition to the summary field" and "In addition to a summary of the change itself, the summary field may also contain an explanation of the change; note that if the reason for an edit is not clear, it is more likely to be reverted, especially in the case that some text is deleted. To give a longer explanation, use the Talk page and put in the edit summary "see Talk"." which shows intent is to summarize the what not the why. I feel, as an editor, a summary of WHAT was changed is easier, and why should become a discussion on the talk page, as that is where consensus should be reached.  Edit summaries aren't a place for establishing consensus.--Vidkun 20:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm quoting wikipedia policy, your quoting wikimedia help pages. Wikipedia is a project that uses wikimedia software. Wikipedia Policy dictates what we do on wikipedia, what wikimedia pages say is irrelevant when it comes to wikipedia policy.   Seraphim  20:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, no, you are quoting a wikipedia guideline: "This page is considered a guideline on Wikipedia. It illustrates standards of conduct, which many editors agree with in principle. Although it may be advisable to follow it, it is not however policy. Feel free to update the page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose any major changes."--Vidkun 20:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok a valid point, however atleast it's talking about wikipedia :), and Wikipedia guidelines are what arbcom people care about :P  Seraphim  20:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If I was feeling at all cynical that might come across as an implicit threat. I'm sure it's not intended that way though.ALR 21:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Nonono not at all. I'm just pointing out that the wikipedia higher ups don't adknowledge wikimedia help pages.  I was trying to clarify the point that even though it's a guideline it is what we should adhere to over a wikimedia help page describing the edit summary box's function.  (thanks for pointing that out to me so i could clarify).  Seraphim  21:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, ALR, AGF ;-). I realise it's hard sometimes (for me it is) but, it helps.--Vidkun 21:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And I was not quoting any policy at all... just making an observation and request. let's let it drop.  :) Blueboar 20:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine by me :) Seraphim  20:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Archive 12 Request
How about archive 12 for this very long page? Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No argument from me. Blueboar 02:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, alot of the discussions are still ongoing. Once all the "issues" are settled, and the tags come off it will be time to archive. If you have problems editing such a long page, just use the headers at the top to jump to the section, and then hit edit.  Archiving this right now would not work since you are not suppossed to reply to an archived page.  Seraphim  02:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I decided i'll agree to archive some of the page if we discuss and reach conscensus on which sections to be archived, since some of them are concluded. "Regardless of which method you choose, you should leave current, ongoing discussions on the existing talk page." I just want to make sure some sections aren't archived that shouldn't be (for example my section that's the top one #1 is not concluded, i'm just waiting to move on it untill the newer discussions about a more contravercial version are concluded) Seraphim  02:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I do not know how to anyway. Doh! I'm such an old dog, wuff wuff. ;) Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

what's really going on?!?

 * This article has existed for quite some time(2003?), & has been a featured article for quite some time. Why, suddenly, do some users think it's so NPOV, controlled by Freemasons, etc? has it suddenly become a target of Conspiracy theorists? Has it changed so so much in a negative way? & it is, actually, fairly well cited, if one actually reads the Notes, See Also section, The External links, the Catagory:Freemasonry articles (& if one really wants to do their homework, Catagory:Freemasons), & especially if one goes through the 12 archived talk pages. This article didn't  get  to be featured by being bad, poorly cited, etc. There's a  lot  of hard work by a lot of people here. They often dispute eachother, & nearly as often come to terms & learn to compromise. So, what's the point again? What valid arguement is being presented? Grye 09:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Many of the sub-articles are actually POV forks, & should be treated accordingly. Grye 01:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, OK, Lightbringer's 9at least part of) what's going on... 68.70.100.39 08:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers
I think there should be a spoiler warning of some sort in the article for stuff folks might not wanna read if they're considering joining masonry. That's allowed per rules. Ardenn 04:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Any information that would fall under a spoiler tag should not be included in the article. With that said, critisism of a group is not a spoiler. Seraphim  04:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

link to Mormonism and Freemasonry
I really feal that this is an inappropriate link... this article does not discuss any tie between the two orgnizations at all. Since there is debate as to the extent of the ties between the Church of Later Day Saints and Freemasonry, I think we should (at minimum) discuss this issue before adding a link to Mormonism and Freemasonry] to this page. Comments please. Blueboar 04:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The Mormonism and Freemasonry page could use a few more inline reference links, however the references at the bottom of the article show that there is a relationship between the two. It should be included as a link   Seraphim  04:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know the solution, & I've got plenty to focus on, but as far as I know, there's a rather heavy, significant link to Moronsim & Freemasonry that can't be denied. It is an historically problematic link that isn't going to be easy to cite & verify etc etc, but it is there. If someone can actually do it, cited & all, then that'd actually be a pretty impressive... But does need to be watched closely, in wikipedia's interest. Again, that's not a "Yeah or nay", just an aside. Grye 08:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well then if there is a link between the 2 we need to link to the page discussing that link :) Let the people who are editing that article deal with that article's problems :p Seraphim  08:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Merging anti-Masonry with the Freemasonry site?
I do not believe the two should be merged, the one would undoubtedly cast an unpartial view on the institution. Not that I believe that all forms of dissent should be done away with, I think discussion and views should be expressed where they are now in the discussion forum. Anti-Masonry is a view and an opinion I count two wiki sites alone dealing with Anti-Masonry the first Mostly banter about Conspiracy Theories which is marred by conjecture, the second a legitimate page about the American Masonic party and the Morgan affair.07:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)~
 * Believe it or not, you just summarized why we would have to merge them, if we find that to be the case :p. It is inherently POV to move all "anti" stuff to one page, and all "pro" stuff to another page (i'm not saying that this is the situation we are in right now with the freemasonry pages). Right now the merger talk is pretty much on hold, untill we get all the POV tags off of Anti-Freemasonry, at that point we will decide the fate of that article :)  Seraphim  08:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I think:
 * the "anti" page should be called (to use S 'n' F's term) Crapola about Freemasonry, or,
 * the two pages should merge to form Freemasony: Truth and Crapola. Darth Dalek 20:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Ritual not cited
No ritual is cited in the article. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 12:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC) If any ritual were to be cited, this would be wrong because: Ritual is usually only "exposed" by Anti-Masonic types to reveal "secrets". Because Freemasonry is Constitutional, and not a religion, only the last and current issue of any ritual is relevant to any discussion, beyond antiquarian interest. A publicly available and published ritual is not always the one used by any particular Private Lodge, since a wide latitude is given in any Grand Lodge or Orient over "performing" such ritual. To sum up it is futile to debate "secrets" here in the public domain as no "secrets" will be given up here, and no naughty "secrets" are found in any publicly found sources. There are no naughty secrets to be found. The point about one "Mason" recognising another by passing "secrets" is just silly these days, even if it ever applied, since after an initial introduction, a detailed protocol of conformation is gone through before a "stranger" can get into an active Lodge, etc. I would say that anyone showing undue interest in the craft, beyond what is already here in the article, should go and get a life validated in some more fruitful way. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 12:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If it is current it is Copyright.
 * If it is so old as to be not in Copyright, then the ritual is no longer done in that way.


 * The standard of Wikipedia is VERIFIABILITY, not TRUTH. If someone published something about the secrets in the past, it is appropriate to say who published it and what they published. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 12:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Citation deleted as not correct anyway. Starting a revert war over this makes you in the wrong. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 13:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, the book was published when it was published. If it's not accurate, then provide a source saying it's not accurate. Please REVIEW what I have written before blindly reverting - you are on the verge of violating the 3rr. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 13:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The burden of proof is on the side of the citing person not the editor saying it is wrong/copyrighted, as per how Wiki works. You keep adding a citation that is wrong, and the reference is a general one, but that in context only applies to regular Freemasonry, not European Contintental style Freemasonry. I've no idea how many rituals currently circulate, have you? If only Duncan is cited, the point is lost, since the point is to show all regular Freemasons are obligated not to politically plot, etc. This is not one of the "secrets". "Please REVIEW what I have written before blindly reverting - you are on the verge of violating the 3rr." Same back at you, and that is what you are trying for. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 13:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Citations can be copywritten. The article can be WRONG - as in factually innacurate, as long as it is VERIFIABLE. Please review WP:V. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 13:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Section re-edited. Have a look. Gone back to my life for a time. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 13:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So Hipocrite, what you are saying is that Wiki is verifiable crap, and that is the way you like it? Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 13:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That is correct. Please stop reverting any mention of the cite that you don't like. Thanks. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 13:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You have reverted the citation of Duncan's 6 times now. Is there a specific reason this book cannot be mentioned? Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I've gotten to the heart of the real issue. See below. MSJapan 14:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. It cannot be verified that what is in the book is what the book purports to be.  There is no proof that what is in that book are the actual rituals, and there is no way to support the claim that they are.  If you absolutely feel that book must be mentioned, then the impossibility of proving its contents should be cited.  For example, if you have a text that says "the secret word of the 100th degree is bubblegum" how can you prove that it is indeed bubblegum?--Vidkun 14:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please review WP:V. The book is published by a reputable publisher. If it says something, it is appropriate to say it says something. If there is a another reputable source that says it's full of crap, that other reputable source can also be mentioned. This is the fundamental tennant of WP:NPOV. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry I did not know Wiki was a religion or cult of crapola. Sorry I thought this bit was Wikipedia, not Crapolapedia. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is it cannot be proven or disproven. The falsifiability of the source referred to does not exist.  Prove to me that the invisible pink unicorn is neither invisible, nor pink.--Vidkun 14:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We can't take a side in the dispute over the accuracy or truthiness of Duncans, if such a dispute exists. We can only report on it -> IE: "Duncans, which claims to be a ritual book from the 1800s, has a bunch of masonic rituals. (SOME OTHER SOURCE) claims that Duncans' is garbage." This is where NPOV policy shines - we don't have to figure out who is right, just say there's a fight! Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 15:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Case Studies in Politics and Crime
First of all, that's a misleading title - what that section used to be was a summary of the old Anti-Freemasonry page. Second of all, that section is by no means a case study. I would suggest you choose a more appropriate and less leading title. The 1799 material should be in a history section, or somewhere else, as it makes no sense where it is now - the section doesn't read properly. The ritual wasn't antiquated when it was originally published, and I fail to see what relevance it has to the situation with Pitt - Pitt was the British Prime Minister in 1799, and Duncan's Monitor wasn't published until the late 1800s in the US.

Masonic charity has nothing to do with religious opposition (as a matter of fact, that is one of the things that the Catholics felt was good about Masonry), the 1980s date for ritual change is wrong if it's not cited, as I believe it was actually the 1970s, but one would have to ask UGLE about it. Also, why is the forget-me-not section now called "In Remembrance" and part of the Politics and Crime section?

In short, I need a really good reason as to why that whole thing should not be reverted, because it makes no sense whatsoever now in terms of either readability or organization. The titles have almost nothing to do with the content, and make very little sense themselves. MSJapan 13:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I placed the reference to Duncan's in the rituals section and it was removed. I welcome you to reinsert it there as a symbol of WP:AGF. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to, but only because it's not relevant in the context, as I have stated above. You're tying Pitt in 1799 in England to Duncan in the US in 1866 (I think), and that doesn't make any sense.  My putting it back in there is not AGF, it's acceding to POV, because there is no factual need to even mention ritual there, as it's got nothing to do with anything in that section. MSJapan 14:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The section I added it to was titled "Ritual and symbolism." Please review . Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You did now. You also changed the diff reference.  The other one clearly shows it in politics and crime, and shows it as your edit.  Speaking of violating AGF....MSJapan 14:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed the diff from one that referenced a grammer fix I made (which was also reverted) to the Duncan cite - review . I added it to that section BEFORE I comment above - review 14:07, 9 February 2006 and 13:41, 9 February 2006 -> 28 minutes earlier. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: I corrected the difflink less than 1 minute after posting my initial comment. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooooooooooooooooooooo you are sooooooooooooooooo cooooooooooooooooooool (not). Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

RFC Responce
I filed an RFC regarding the constant removal of the Duncan's Cite. The RFC reads as follows: "Link to a cite being constantly removed based on the statement that it is not-accurate. Newer cites are not available as they are secrets. Should the older cite remain in article untill a reputable source says it is not-accurate (and then such disagreement described in text), or should the older cite be removed based on the say-so of those privy to the newer cites?" This section is for outside comment on the RFC. Please do not respond here if you are an "insider" to this discussion - there is a section for insider comments below. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I filed the hard bits on my fingers, cos they had crapola under them. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Insider comments on RFC
Can I join, and please tell me your secrets. Please. (PS in UK "RFC" is a Rugby Football Club - so what is this jargen for, here?) Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The cite is valid, but it does not belong where it is placed in the article, as it has absolutely no relevance to the incident being discussed. Please see my above section "Case Studies on Politics and Crime" for further comments. MSJapan 14:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The comment I am making is in respect to the reversion of Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me quote what I think is a major issue for verifiability: contain older descriptions of masonic rituals. My opinion is that this is not something that can be proved or disproved.  A better wording would be "contain alleged older descriptions of masonic rituals".--Vidkun 14:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Does that justify removing the source? The above change would be fine with me - please make it. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry I did not know Wiki was a religion or cult of crapola. Sorry I thought this bit was Wikipedia, not Crapolapedia. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me cite myself and say "CRAPOLA". I think I'll add a def,n of it in the Wikionary. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The other issue, Hip, is that at the time of publication, Duncan's was the equivalent of a self published book, without verifiability of its sources. Just because something is published doesn't make it verifiable.  I realize that we are looking at verifiability here, ie. did someone publish this book, and does it say x y z, and not that the claims of x y z are correct, per sé.  I think my best way to deal with it is the inclusion of the word alleged although someone might say it is a weasel word and POV to do so.  I simply disagree on that, though.--Vidkun 14:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I am waiting for you to make that edit. Using "alleged" to show that a book "Allegdges" to be something is fine, if it's disputed. I'm certain you can show me a reputable source for such a dispute. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To say "alleged" is totally POV. That is the kind of thing you do. Get a non-wiki Dictionary and look it up. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what, SnF, you are saying that Duncan's is a valid source?--Vidkun 14:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No I said "To say "alleged" is totally POV. That is the kind of thing you do. Get a non-wiki Dictionary and look it up." Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Removing emphasis from this important article.
Using bolds and italics to emphaise a point is not-encyclopedic. After I get an all-clear from a number of editor here, I will fix this. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I would agree, for the bolds only. The italics, from my quick scrub of the article, are used to indicate words which have different internal meanings within Freemasonry, than they might in general English language use.--Vidkun 14:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that real-quotes i.e. "regular" would work better, but italics there are fine if that's how consensus here wants. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Going through it again, it's only italics being used for emphasis at times. The bolds are all subhead-repeats, which is MOS ok. Review upcoming edit. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems good, as far as I can tell. It has a few pieces that were highlighted to me by comparing the diffs, that need to be reworded, specifically the Golden dawn thing, but none of that was part of your edit.  Thanks!--Vidkun 15:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway Hipocrite you like "Crapola" in Wiki, and I can cite were you say so. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL Read and follow WP:CIVIL. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You 1st Skull 'n' Femurs 14:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, heed Hipocrite's advice, and try to be "nicer" to other editors, and less confrontational if you can. Or else (forgive the clicé, but I cannot put it any other way) I or somebody else, will block you. Cheers Banez 14:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh NO help - I'm Sh##ing Myself. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 14:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway Hipocrite you like "Crapola" in Wiki, and I can cite were you say so.Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Misleading minor to describe edit summary
Changing an entire link, actually deleting it, is not a minor edit. In addition, while Freemasonry, worldwide may not be a service organization, the link was to a page for both fraternal organizations and service organizations.--Vidkun 15:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The other issue is that it was a revert without discussion of what other changes were made, which definitely makes that a completely misleading edit summary.--Vidkun 15:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The amount of reverting being done here is shocking. Why are the emphasis removals being undone? Please discuss on talk. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 15:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes your reverts are "shocking". Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The following edit -> appears to replace an informative cited version of the article with one that has no cites. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 15:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * How "shocking" is that, etc? Blagh blagh. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Please cite "Crapola" Hipocrite when editing using it. Thanks Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Please cease the personal attacks.--Vidkun 15:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Same to you Bro. I'm only asking for Crapola to be cited. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 15:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In the spirit of comity, I will pledge not to re-do any of the edits that SnB undid, in the hopes that when he returns from his block he will be willing to go back to the most-recent good version - I think - on his own. Removing the bad-emphasis marks took a good 10 minutes of work, and was a really positive change. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 15:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Shame
It's a shame that I already blew 3 reverts trying to fix the article and can't revert back to the last good version. The most recent changes require citing if they are going to stick, period. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the most recent changes by User:Basil Rathbone are simply more of the same from someone who was blocked for various violations of policies and guidelines, specifically on this and related articles.--Vidkun 16:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted the extremely offensive edits that Basil made about blacks in Freemasonry. Ardenn 16:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but you didn't revert to the last good version - . You left in the garbage about women, the emphasis marks, and left out the citation for the intro statement. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Fixed, RfPP submitted. Ardenn 16:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * These most recent changes (from the anti side) are also outrageous. Edits to this article MUST abide by WP:V. If something is true, please cite a source saying that. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * For your reference: . As you can see, he has no interest in doing what you are requesting.--Vidkun 16:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

this edit contains very interesting information. If it were sourced, I would be strongly in favor of including it. What is the source of that information? Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 16:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have plenty of references for info about Blacks, Women, and the Disabled in Freemasonry. University level citations. Of course whether I made them or not the reference would be quickly reverted by the 24/7 'tyle' that is in place on Wikipedia by Masonic editors.


 * Did any of these Masonic editors complain or revert the massive re-edits of the criticisms section that went on yesterday? Nope. Did any of these same editors complain about continual deletion of links to Freemasonrywatch, secret societies, or masonic secrets? Nope. There is no good faith here by Masonic editors. I have made contributions that are critical of freemasonry, ergo I am an anti, ergo I must not be allowed to make any additional contributions, ergo I must be banned. That is the way Masons operate. Ignore the criticism, silence the critic. They have been doing it for centuries. Masonry is a cult.Basil Rathbone 17:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

3RR reported. Ardenn 16:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Who did the 3rr, not I.Basil Rathbone 17:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah Ardenn that's an invalid 3rr report. Unless someone violates it just randomly reporting them does nothing but give them sympathy from the admin's.  Seraphim

Page protected
Where do we go from here? How can we resolve the disputes? Ardenn 17:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * With Basil, it is parallelling Requests_for_arbitration/Lightbringer. I guess we could try and get arbcomm to take it.--Vidkun 17:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I read that, if you can prove he is Lightbringer, you don't need ArbCom since there's already a ruling. Ardenn 17:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with proving it is that it requires check-user, and backlog doesn't begin to describe the situation there.--Vidkun 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the editors here need to stop accusing everyone of being Lightbringer. Yes basil needs to be dealt with, prefrably blocked, that doesn't make him automatically lightbringer.  Seraphim  17:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * They want me blocked because I make edits critical of Freemasonry, ergo I am an 'anti', ergo I can not be allowed to make anymore posts. Don't you get it? They always demonize their critics and ignore the criticism.Basil Rathbone 17:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Basil I agree with you that the secrets need to be adressed, if you look at the top section of this talk page you will see where I had that debate, and we reached a kinda steady truce at the moment. Right now you are going about it the completly wrong way.  YOur trying to take a HUGE step when a small step is what's needed.   Seraphim  17:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * However, I meant more in the way of improving the article itself. Ardenn 17:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, as the page is protected, discussion now has to take place here until the issues are resolved, so that's a start. The basic issue is what is necessary encyclopedically to understand Freemasonry, and I personally don't believe that the secrets, historical or otherwise, are integral to that; what Freemasonry is and what it does have nothing to do with secrets, now or then. MSJapan 17:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, right now, in the middle of an edit war between three sides (Basil, general users, and Skull) there is any way to fix it. My opinion is that Skull has gotten frustrated with the process, and makes his reversions out of spite for the process itself.  I would like to see each section come up in discussion here, and a couple of hours of discussion on it, before we edit it.   That's the goal in general, anyway.--Vidkun 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, lets review the actions of Masonic Editors on the Freemasonry and related pages shall we?


 * Continual deletion of Secret society, Mormonism and Freemasonry from See Also section


 * There is no factual proof of "secret society" as WP defines it being valid. Masonic buildings are publicly marked and meetings are advertised.  The Mormonism stuff is very much contested by Masons and Mormons. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems obvious that a "see-also" link is perfectly relevent. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of FreemasonryWatch.org and many other sites critical of Freemasonry from External links section.


 * FreemasonryWatch is not a reputable site of information. Much of what is there is taken out of context, and it is rife with conspuracy theories. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What leads you to say that? Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of Criticisms of Freemasonry from Freemasonry Page.


 * These are handled in greater depth in Anti-Freemasonry, and a link is provided. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual Deletion of Masonic Secrets from Freemasonry Page


 * This is not a history article, and the validity of the information as to any modern application is contested. It's also not integral, encyclopedically speaking, to understanding Freemasonry. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:NPOV requires that for contested information we do not take a side - we describe the controvercy. If there is a sourced discussion of masonic secrets, I will fight to include it, with the inclusion of any sourced rebuttal. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * However one must, in an academic context, consider the reliability of the stated source. That reliability does lead to a consideration of the utility of including the source as a legitimate context.  Is a mention in a non-peer reviewed journal considered at the same level of reliabilty as that in a peer reviewed journal, how does the source compare with others of a similar age and topic, how has the environment within which the source exists changed since it was published?  Merely appearing in print (or indeed on the web) proves nothing.ALR 18:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual insertion of reams of unsubstantiated propaganistic and irrelevent information cut and pasted from dozens of Masonic websites.


 * I don't see where this is coming from at all. Everything added is cited. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of any reference to Occult rituals and associatins pertaining to Freemasonry


 * Because they are patently not true as pertaining to Freemasonry as an organization. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Truth is not the standard of inclusion, verifiability is. If the occult rituals are sourced, the only response is to find a source that says there are no occult rituals and describe the debate. We cannot take sides. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of any reference to discrimination of women, blacks, and the disabled in Freemasonry


 * Because this is not true either, apart from not allowing women to join, and i would add that college fraternities do the same thing - it is the nature of the word "fraternity" actually. So to claim that only Masonry does this is wrong.  Also, blacks and the disabled are free to join.  I know plenty of brothers who are amputees, or are in wheelchairs, or have learning disabilities, and I also know plenty of brothers who aren't white. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, truth is not the standard of inclusion, verifiability is. If the various discrimatory practices are sourced, the only response is to find a source that says there are no discrimatory practices and describe the debate. We cannot take sides. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of any reference to support of Hitler and Nazi's and their occult involvements by Regular German Freemasonry


 * Because the historical fact shows otherwise. You're using the actions of a subset of Lodges as a generalization for the whole, and the fact ias that all Masonry, including the Old Prussian lodges, were suppressed.  As I said, you are using hindsight to assume that the support of the government in the 1930s (which is a tenet of Freemasonry, by the way) was the same as condoning later actions, and it certainly is not.  Even the lodges that initially supported the regime were shut down, which doesn't say much for that.  Furthermore, the Nazis looted all the Lodges and appropriated materials for propaganda and their own occult purposes. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, truth is not the standard of inclusion, verifiability is. If the various nazi relations are sourced, the only response is to find a source that says there are no nazi relations and describe the debate. We cannot take sides. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of any reference to Freemasonry's support and involvement in the Ku Klux Klan


 * Because there is nothing but speculation available. Pike was never a member, and it is also important to differentiate the old KKK and the new KKK; they are not the same entity. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, truth is not the standard of inclusion, verifiability is. If the various KKK relations are sourced, the only response is to find a source that says there are no KKK relations and describe the debate. We cannot take sides. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of accurate and complete information regarding the P2 conspiracy including involement in terrorism, subversion, and murder


 * There's an entire article on it, link provided. MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual deletion of accurate and complete information regarding Freemasonry's corrupt practices of perfering other Freemasons in hiring, promotion, and business.


 * Where's your proof? Also, how is that any different if I were to run a business and hire a family member or a friend instead of someone else? MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, truth is not the standard of inclusion, verifiability is. If the various discrimatory practices are sourced, the only response is to find a source that says there are no discrimatory practices and describe the debate. We cannot take sides. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Continual violation of Wikipedia rules and guidelines using combined numbers to delete any contributions by non-masons avoiding 3rr rules, continual false and harrassing complaints against non-masonic editors with aim to get them banned. Continual vandalism of non-masonic editors user and talk pages with 'suspected' of being sockpuppet' templates.Basil Rathbone 17:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Funny, you're the one who "has an interest in history and esoterica and doesn't edit much", and you're the one who has been shown to violate rules by outside sources. A sock tag is not vandalism, and you haven't done anything to allay anyone's suspicions.  You're the one claiming conspiracy, and then you take actions such that you are "proven right". Even "non-Masonic" editors (a distinction which you make and we don't) have tried to intercede, with no success.MSJapan 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Both of you have demonstrated reasonably poor editing behavior. I believe you are both very defensive or offencive about your POV, and have a hard time editing for the enemy. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Very well, Hipocrite, we may as well say all of the blood libels are out there. Do you know why you don't see rebuttals to so many of them? Because they are so outlandish as to defy belief by any except conspiracy theorists and people with bigotted axes to grind. It's pretty much similar to asking us to prove we don't beat our wives.--Vidkun 18:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a whole NPOV article about the blood libels. That's how things are written. "x claims y, z refutes this." This is our NPOV formulation. Deleting "x claims y" because "y isn't true" is not NPOV. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is, as an entire seperate page. The list of blood libels against Jews is not part of the main article Jew because it is a seperate issue.  In fact, it isn't even referenced on the main page.  So, in that case, why should these repeatedly uncited claims claims be here on the main article space?--Vidkun 18:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * When they are cited and included, you can argue about forking them out, which I will strongly oppose (masonic secrets are more interesting than most of the article, and I will happily submit that to 3o or RFC, and get back exactly that result). Now that you have retracted your argument that falseness requires exclusion, we can move on. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So, then, I can expect you to attempt to have the blood libels against Jews made part of the main article Jew? As for many of Basil's other claims, they have been refuted again and again in the history of this article.  One glaring issue, he claim black are not allowed into a majority of Masonic Lodges in the US, that Prince Hall Lodges are not recognized in the US, but this map shows that to be false.  But, oh, no, because we don't show it to you right now, and EVERY SINGLE TIME SOMEONE MAKES THE ACCUSATION, we aren't citing our rebuttals.  It's been done, over and over again, whenever someone has tried to say that PHA is not recognized in the US.  I would also submit that what you find interesting is not what an encyclopedia is all about.   While truth is not the issue, verifiability is, no other rebuttals of false accusations against large scale groups require citing.  Double standard.--Vidkun 18:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:POINT would prevent me from trying to add uninteresting information into an article so that I could add interesting information into this one. You wouldn't have to prove things false over and over if you followed WP:V and WP:NPOV. The sentance would read "A source (obviously, the name of the source would need to be included) claimed that Prince Hall Lodges are not recognized in the US, but according to Paul M. Bessel's "Masonic Recognition Issues" website states that 38, or 75% of US Grand Lodges have voted to recognize them." Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "You wouldn't have to prove things false over and over if you followed WP:V" Why don't you just go and look at the section on Prince Hall Masonry, and you will see with your own two eyes that it is cited.--Vidkun 18:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "and WP:NPOV" Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So, does NPOV mean that items that are VERIFIABLY FALSE have to be included? Claims that the moon is made of cheese don't have to be kept in wikipedia for an NPOV, do they?--Vidkun 18:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, they do. If a reputable source claims it, it gets included, regardless of how wrong it is. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine. Basil has not ONCE put a source for the claim that a majority of Grand Lodges in the US do not recognize PHA.--Vidkun 18:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Please review the document located at User:Hipocrite/Freemasonry and provide sources. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No, its up to BR to provide reputable sources. You can't prove a negative, and BR is going to be hard proved to provide anything REPUTABLEALR 19:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest that the important word there is 'Reputable' :) HTH HAND and all thatALR 19:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Unhelpful above
Both of you are being entirely unhelpful. Basil - I'd like to focus on one edit of yours that I thought had a great deal of interesting information - specifically,. This edit is great, except it lacks sources. What sources can we find for these claims? Thanks. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The reason it lacks sources is because there are none for itALR 18:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry about that Mason, I've got plenty of sources, and will post them forthwith. Of course you know my accusations about Freemasonry are 100% correct, and yet you remain a Mason.Basil Rathbone 19:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting? Perhaps. True? At least not in Norway.
 * (Freemasonry) demands it's members keep secret both the membership of other Freemasons...
 * In Norway, as I assume it is for most other european Lodges, the memberlist is avilable for all who asks. It lists masons names, cities they live in, what lodge they belong to, what degree they have and their occupation. You can either contact the Grand Lodge of Norway[www.frimurer.no] and ask for the files, or go to Magazinet (Christian fundamentalist magazin - the same fools who reprinted the Mohammed cartoons) and search. They thought they had done a coup, but in fact we don't care, or mind. Their list is a couple of years out of date, so they havn't gotten my newest degree in there.
 * Additionally Freemasons are required to prefer other Freemasons in hiring, promotions, and business. In Norway, at least, this will get you either reprimanded, or even tossed out if it's serious enought. Again, you may contact the Grand Lodge of Norway[www.frimuer.no] and ask for a copy of the laws.
 * But hey, I'm just a Freemason from Norway. Off course I don't know anything about what Freemasonry is all about... WegianWarrior 20:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:NOR. Truth is not the standard for inclusion, Verifiability is. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 20:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if you're looking for verifiabilty, I can offer the Grand Lodge of Idaho web site, which features the names (and photographs) of every Grand Lodge officer in the state. That alone should puncture the secret membership myth.


 * As for preferential treatment in employment, I don't doubt for a moment that there are good-old-boy networks among some Freemasons past and present, but the implication here is that there is a formal, written policy on the matter. None exists. If we're going to include that, then in fairness we'll have to include something similar to it in articles on just about every other group and association ever formed in all of human history. It's silly. --Faustus37 22:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggested Additions to Freemasonry Page
Please edit these as needed at User:Hipocrite/Freemasonry, where I have marked them up already. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That being the case, I have removed the material from here, as all it does it take up space. Much of it is a repost from an earlier section. MSJapan 18:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh huh, nice try. Oh and I do believe your removal of my post from this discussion page constitues as vandalism.Basil Rathbone 18:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, can we have this discussion on the page I put on my user space? It's too big for here. Thanks. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please? NO. THIS IS THE DISCUSSION PAGE FOR FREEMASONRY AND THIS IS WHERE THE DISCUSSION WILL TAKE PLACE, NOT BURIED SOMEWHERE.Basil Rathbone 18:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please stop. The page I set up is much more conducive to fixing the article than pasting chunks to the talk page is. Please. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It is just vandalism what you are doing, you have no right to delete material from discussion page, no right at all, it is pure vandalism. You are not the moderator of this discussion page. DO NOT delete my material any more from this page!Basil Rathbone 18:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm your biggest supporter on this page, and I'm deleting it. Does this tell you something? Please go to my userified copy and find the cites, then we'll get it included. Thanks. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is that BR is not interested in actually contributing, merely disrupting as demonstrated by the several blockages in the last few days and refusal to actually rationally discuss his suggested additions. If one were being cynical then BRs behaviour might charitably be described as Trolling.ALR 18:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The block of opposing editors are hardly blameless here. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Whilst I'll acknowledge that at least one editor countering BRs vandalism has handled himself in a manner which I would consider to be unacceptable, the all encompassing nature of your last seems to imply that you are including me in that response. That could easily be considered as a personal attack, which I consider somewhat unreasonable bearing in mind you have yet to respond to a number of direct responses to your entries this afternoon.ALR 19:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:NOT a debating society. I don't have to respond to anything. I explictly include you in the list of problematic editos for this little bullbait. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 20:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As Vidkun has pointed out, there are no REPUTABLE sources for the assertions, and you'll note that BR has elswhere in a recent addition made clear his/ her POV.ALR 20:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Incidentally a contribution in the talk page is not an edit, if you review my edits to the article page I think you'll find that notwithstanding reversions of vandalism, all of my contributions have been as positive as possible in the interests of improving the article. BTW I've made a suggestion in your sandbox for an improvement.ALR 20:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * He posted a large list of sources published by major publishers that I have requested from my local library. I will read them and cite what can be cited when I get around to it. Bullbaiting editors who are likley to explode is a bad action, regardless of any positive work you may have put in on the article. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 20:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the discussion page, this is where it will be discussed, not elsewhere. I repeat you CAN NOT delete material from the discussion page. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? So far you haven't helped in the slightest. You have got the most twisted version of this page to date locked in permanetly. Big help you. Just stay out of it.Basil Rathbone 18:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you did that. Follow my 4 rules and you will prosper here. Violate them and you will just get nothing done. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 19:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry the authority we follow on this page are entitled Wikipedia rules and not Hipocrites '4 rules'. Who are you supposed to be again? Wikipedia needs to permanetly ban a dozen Masonic editors from going anywhere near any pages related to Freemasonry based on reams and reams of evidence of their violation of said rules and spirit. That is the help that is needed here, not what you have 'offered' so far. This isn't a feel good, why can't we just get along gang parlee, I want some enforcement, and now.Basil Rathbone 19:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Basil, if you think you are being unfairly treated then put it to arbitration. Blueboar 19:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The cites below are excellent, but it's not clear which of them makes which claims. Please specify which cites gave you each of the specific cites I requested citations for at my scratchspace User:Hipocrite/Freemasonry Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 20:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

"Freemasonry isn't Satanic, it is Satanism" ~ Basil
Ok he's a crazy, how do we get him banned/blocked? Seraphim 20:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Might as well start posting some evidence for whatever happens down the road.

"Freemasonry is not just Satanic, it is Satanism" Shows bias that does not let him participate in an npov fashion.
 * The reason I want JAHBULON mentioned on this page and the reason the Masons don't want JAHBULON mentioned is that the revelation of this particular word has been particularly damaging to Freemasonry. Furthermore the revelation of the oaths of the Royal Arch have been particularly damaging to Freemasonry as they include the phrase 'MURDER AND TREASON NOT EXCEPTED'. Royal Arch controls Anglo Freemasonry. It is just not some silly little side degree. THAT is why I will not agree to have it shunted off to some side page, a side page incidently where Masons will not tolerate it existance either, believe me! The most important thing you can learn about Freemasonry is how incidious it is. It comes from the Devil and it leads to the Devil. Freemasonry is not just Satanic, it is Satanism. Basil Rathbone 20:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

"Trying to counteract the influence of Freemasonry and slow down it's propaganda isn't a game, and it ain't much fun either, trust me. God, Satan, War." He believes he is fighting a war against mason propaganda.
 * If you dont' believe Satan exists Seraphim then I don't know what to say. Many many Churchmen, serious men have researched this subject, and they have all come to the same conclusion. Trying to counteract the influence of Freemasonry and slow down it's propaganda isn't a game, and it ain't much fun either, trust me. God, Satan, War. High Crimes. Freemasonry IS Satanism. I thought you had 'read quite a bit about it'. Well you need to read some more then. That is the problem these days, that is why Masonry gets it's recruits. Read the Bible, start going to Church, ask your Priest.Basil Rathbone 20:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Blanking / "Clean Slate"
Removing information contributed by many users on an articles talk page is completly unacceptable. It is vandalism in the highest degree. Talk page content needs to be archived, and because all the content on this page is still active it cannot be currently archived, the page size does not matter, especially when that's not the reason your giving for doing the blanking. I will continue to revert any vandalism to this page. Seraphim 20:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you give me a detailed list of sections you want kept on the main page, please, or just move all the sections you don't want into the archive. The page takes about 45 seconds to load on my geezer machine, and has devolved into useless back and forth. Archiving will solve both of these problems. I have had success in archiving to a blank page leading to positive momentum in other problem articles of this sort, and believe if you tried it here, it would be helpful. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 21:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I already did that earlier when someone just decided to archive the entire first 1/2 of the talk page, I left the sections that are archivable there and moved the still active sections back here. Every single section here now, is still active, and will be recieving more replies to it in the future.  The only section you can problary move back to the archive 12 is the section on copyright, with basil being a proven crazy that section is no longer relevant since I won't be defending his additions from allogations of copyright infringment anymore.  We need to get rid of basil, that is a fact.  The way to do that is to follow Dispute Resolution, inorder to do that we need a talk page that shows that we have tried to reason with him, and to show his inherent bias.  I created a section called ""Freemasonry isn't satanistic, it IS satanism" ~ basil" where i'm listing some evidence as to why basil has to be removed from wikipedia.  Blanking the page is not going to help anything at all.  Seraphim  21:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I assumed the person that did the archiving earlier removed all the out of date sections, I just looked and that is not the case. I'll look it over and post a list of what I believe needs to be removed.  Seraphim  21:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok all above the featured article removal section can be moved to archive 12 except "Mason Secrets?" I still intend to use that section once things calm down, "POV warning and Merget tags" and "Merge tag" must stay on the talk page since the tags are still on the article and are still in discussion (it's on hold while the pov issues with Anti-Freemasonry are delt with) Everything other then those 3 sections I'll support archiving, even though I believe that they might become highly referenced in the near future. Seraphim  21:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that everything above the featured article removal discussion section be archived, but nothing below there, yet.--Vidkun 21:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Darth Dalek is User:Skull 'n' Femurs
I would just like to point everyone to User_talk:David_Gerard where this admin has said that User:Darth_Dalek is User:Skull_'n'_Femurs. This has also been stated and blanked on User_talk:Darth_Dalek. Sockpuppetry is a tactic that has been used time and time again by Anti-masonic vandals and has been pointed out on this page. I believe "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander," so this user's sockpuppetry should also be pointed out. I'd like to think that as a mason User:Darth_Dalek or User:Skull_'n'_Femurs, wouldn't lower himself to their tactics. Now you can feel free to attack me as you wish, but remember that useful masonic lesson that we will ever whisper good counsel in the ear of a brother, and in the most tender manner remind him of his faults, and endeavor to aid in his reformation. The best and only way to defeat lies is with truth, not deception and more lies. Let's keep that in mind when we try to dispell the lies of anti-masons. Chtirrell 02:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If he continues editing on this page and doesn't get banned hopefully arbcom will step in and give him the same restrictions as lightbringer. He actually accused David Gerard of being Lightbringer...  Seraphim  04:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if User:Skull_'n'_Femurs is really a mason as his user page used to say, or if he's always been anti-masonic. Or if he's just given up and taken to vandalizm. Ardenn 04:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How is he anti-masonic??? All of his vandalism has been towards anti-masonic information, oh i'm sorry in his words "Anti-Masonic Crapola" also he is a mason, he has had some discussions on talk pages with other masons about mason stuff. Seraphim  04:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

=Basil's proposed changes=

Status of the Disabled in Freemasonry
Freemasonry refuses to admit men born with birth defects as part of it's pseudo Levitical Priesthood laws. Men are asked during the interview process to become a Freemasons if they were 'born whole'.

This has led to accusations that the disabled are being routinely discriminated against by Freemasons in hiring, promotions, and business, in those fields where Masonic membership 'placement' is known to be concentrated, such as in the Police, Judiciary, and Public Office.

Status of Women in Freemasonry
Freemasonry considers Women 'totaly unfit to discharge the duties of a Freemason' and thus forbids them membership. There are no Women Freemasons. Wives of Freemasons may be admitted to a service organization called 'The Order of the Eastern Star' which principally concerns itself to preparing meals for their husbands Lodge dinners. The head of the Order of the Eastern Star and all sub-lodges are lead by a Master Mason, i.e. a man.

This sitation has led a number of Women political figures in the U.K. and elsewhere to call for a banning of Freemasonry membership in public life because of the preferement Masons show to each other in hiring, promotion, and business leading to defacto discrimination against all women, as well as all male non-masons.

Status of Negroes in American Freemasonry
U.S. Masonic Grand Lodges have traditionally discriminated against Black men from joining Freemasonry. Today in the U.S. Grand Lodges south of the 'Mason-Dixon' Line can not count a single Black person among it's membership. In the North and West a similar situation existed up until the 1980's. Even with the removal of an outright ban of Black membership in Northern and Western Grand Lodges the membership remains almost completely 'white'. The pseudo religious occult arguement given by Freemasons for this discrimination against Black's is that 'they are not men free born and are thus unable to discharge their Masonic duties'. Prince Hall Freemasonry, which Black men do join, is considered by the vast majority of U.S. Grand Lodges to be 'irregular' and 'clandestine' Masonry. In the U.S. and Canada the majority of membership in the Ku Klux Klan consisted of white Masons of 'Regular' Grand Lodges. In most towns the membership in the local Ku Klux Klan Klavern and the membership in the local white Masonic was overlapping.

If you had signed the above (with your real name) and if this was on a UK server - the UK CID Police would now be at your door. Darth Dalek 19:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Masonic Secrets
The Secret society of Freemasonry employs demands it's members keep secret both the membership of other Freemasons and any information learned other Freemasons. Masons must obtain the permission of other Masons before revealing membership or any information about other Masons. Additionally Freemasons are required to prefer other Freemasons in hiring, promotions, and business.

To ensure these rules of internal discipline and secrecy are maintained Freemasonry requires it's members to undertake a number of oaths, and employ a number of secret recognitions signs and words to ensure non-masons do not become aware of Masonic activity or preferement in their immediate surroundings.

Signs of the three Degrees
1- Entered Apprentice: Cut my throat and tongue. 2- Fellow Craft: Cut open my chest, and put my heart and lungs on my left shoulder. 3- Master Mason: Put my bowels out.

The image shown is alleged by the uploader to be his/her original research.--Vidkun 22:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: Clarification- The uploader claims to be the author of the book it is contained in Seraphim  22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The publisher he listed Holy Spirit Press does not know of the book he claims to have written.(you can call them and ask (925) 833-8122) Seraphim  22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Further clarification WP:NOR, WP:NOR, No_original_research.--Vidkun 22:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Oaths of the three Degrees
1- In the First Degree, Apprentice He swears, with his hand on the Bible, "I (name), in the presence of Almighty God, most solemnly promise and swear that I will always hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the arts, parts of points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry... binding myself under the penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and my body buried in the rough sands of the see..." 2- The Second Degree, Fellow Craft He swears on the Bible, in the presence of Almighty God, "under the penalty than of having my breast open... and my heart and lungs thrown over my left shoulder... so help me God". 3- The Third Degree, Master Mason He swears "under the penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burn to ashes... so help me God".

Total crapola, as per usual. Why not just make this stuff up while on heavy medication? Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Fourth Degree or Royal Arch Degree

 * This section is about the York_Rite and belongs on the York_Rite page. It is not part of freemasonry as a whole. Seraphim  00:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

This so-called higher degree of Freemasonry is considered by many Masons to be the completion of the first three degrees of Masonry. In North America it is part of the 'York Rite' of Freemasonry. The Oath in the Royal Arch goes one beyond that of the Third Degree and does not except murder and treason as is contained in the Master Mason oath; “I will aid and assist a companion Royal Arch Mason, when engaged in any difficulty, and espouse his cause, so far as to extricate him from the same, if in my power, whether he be right or wrong. A companion Royal Arch Mason’s secrets, given me in charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable, in my breast as in his own, murder and treason not excepted.” The Secret Word of the Royal Arch is JAHBULON a triparte word displayed on a triangle or delta. The first part JAH represents Yahwah the God of the Hebrews, the second part BUL represents Baal the God of the Babylonians, the third part ON represents Osirus the God of the Egyptians.

Reports prepared for various Protestant Denominations, including the Church of England, specifically singled this 'secret' word out for attention under the charge of blasphemy, as Baal and Osirus are names sometimes associated with the Devil. The word can be also pronounced Diabolon when including the Greek letter Delta, representing the triangle with the three parts written on each side.

User:Basil Rathbone is User:Lightbringer
Can't believe I didn't check this one when it first came to my attention. "Basil Rathbone" is a sockpuppet of Lightbringer, who is indefinitely banned from posting about Freemasonry by the Arbitration Committee. If the telltale edit style shows up again, please drop me a note on my talk page - David Gerard 23:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Given that, it would seem that the page could be unprotected? William M. Connolley 23:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC).
 * Why, yes. Yes, it can. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In which case, can we please either delete Lightbringer/Rathbone's rants here on the Talk Page, or move them to the archive page. I am finding it very difficlut to navigate and find the discussions we need to move this article forward. Blueboar 23:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm for it, make an archive 13 with all of his stuff in it. Just make sure you don't archive the sections "Mason Secrets?", "POV warning and Merger tags" and "Merge tag" all are still relevant (now that basil is down once the page settles i'll be working on the "Mason Secrets?" writeup that it was suggested I do. Seraphim  00:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Seraphim, I would propose that we archive the whole page, and start over with a fresh look at all outstanding issues. I suggest this, not to burry any current discussions or coments, but to clean things up so we can focus on what the various editors feel needs to change.  I have totaly lost track of who is saying what and where, and it would be nice to have things consolidated onto a new page.  I don't insist on it, just suggest it. Blueboar 00:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's fine I guess. This page is a mess.  However on the new page the first section made needs to be "NPOV and Merger tags".  Seraphim  02:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Dig around todays contributions by me, here on the chat page, to find all you need on Masonic "secrets", ie here is no place for ritual etc. All this has been chatted to death. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 01:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Scratchpad ettiquite
Please don't delete sections in the scratchpad. No one is going to insert something that has a fact tag in the article in good faith, so just leave it as uncited and not ripe for inclusion. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 00:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's all bad info, Basil was a banned user. Seraphim  00:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * A full page of Crapola. All the POV you can eat Darth Dalek 22:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Royal Arch
This whole business about the Royal Arch degree got me digging into my library, such as it is. As is mentioned in the article, and as I'm sure you're all aware, there was a schism between the "Antient" and "Modern" Freemasons in England in the 18th and early 19th Centuries. The main bone of contention was that the Moderns considered the degrees of Freemasonry to be exclusively Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft (or Fellow Craft; I've seen it spelled both ways) and Master Mason. The Antients wanted to append the Royal Arch degrees to those. This schism was healed in 1813, which in turn directly led to the modern United Grand Lodge of England. So they reached a compromise, sort of. The Act of Union of 1813 states:


 * "It is declared and pronounced that pure Ancient Masonry consists of three degrees, and no more; viz: Those of Entered Apprentice, the Fellow Craft and the Master Mason, including the Supreme Order of the Royal Arch."

According to Christopher Hodapp, "the agreement meant that lodges were allowed to form Royal Arch chapters and go on conferring the additional degrees, with the blessing - and without the control - of the Grand Lodge. In many English lodges, you're philisophically not considered to be a true Master Mason until you've received the Royal Arch degree."

Meanwhile, by this time Freemasonry in North America was pretty much on its own, so this wasn't nearly as big a deal there.

In short, in the US and Canada, the Royal Arch degree is part of the separate (and completely optional) York Rite, period. Discussion of it in that context belongs in the York Rite article.

In England, it is a separate degree but is sometimes considered to be a culmination of the Master Mason degree. I think that's appropriate to mention here.

Source: Freemasonry for Dummies, Christopher Hodapp, Wiley Publishing, 2005. --Faustus37 01:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Why did you need to dig into your Library? All the above is either here or on the york rite page. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 01:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The history is there, but not the bit about it being a culmination of the Master Mason degree in England today. I was hoping our UK brethren could chime in on that. --Faustus37 01:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've not checked, as of today, but I did post an edit around the start of January on the york rite page. I'm a UGLE Comp, and as of 2004 in England Chapter HRA degree is not within the special Craft relationship. It is now a degree on its own like English mark. So Now in England its EA, FC, MM, then Mark to complete 2nd degree and HRA to complete 3rd, but HRA has lost the special status it had under the 1813 unification of UGLE. This was done since there has been a drop off in joining Chapter, relative to other side orders and degrees. Also the ritual has had some major messing about - as the PM qualification to pass the 3 Principle's chairs has been dropped. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

This shows, I hope, that any stuff about HRA "secrets" pre 2004 in England is now just out of date and wrong. Even the inner working password has changed! Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah. That was what I was looking for. Thanks. --Faustus37 02:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * OTOH, that's a lot of information, so perhaps it would be best to make a brief reference to the fact that HRA is what it is in UGLE, and farm the rest out to the HRA article? MSJapan 02:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Grand Chapter of England runs the HRA Chapters, not UGLE. This page is about the Craft.Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 02:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I should say that we can still show our Chapter breast jewel with our craft regalia. (After all we all like to show off :) ). In England we cannot show Mark jewels in craft (sob sob) ;) Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 03:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I’m a travelling man, from West to East. I hope you find the Centre, Brethren, but suspect you are sojourning in the wrong quarry. S&F  Bro. Skull &#39;n&#39; Femurs 03:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

accusations in the second paragraph
The citation is pretty useless, as it goes against Reliable_sources, because the page it links to is pushing an agenda. As we have seen, time and again in this article, the accusations are made by persons trying to establish that Freemasonry, because it does not restrict its membership to Christians, because it isn't dedicated to Christ etc, it is obviously Satanic.--Vidkun 18:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

User:PM GL PA is Lightbringer again
is is, who is banned by the AC from all Freemasonry-related posting. I've put a note on WP:ANI so admins will know to keep an eye out for him and take care before unblocking - David Gerard 19:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Tags
Can we remove the associated tags? Ardenn 19:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Not the PoV tag. "is referred to in Macoy's Masonic Manual as "a beautiful system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols." Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 19:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No Seraphim  20:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hipocrite, I am not sure I understand your objection to this line ... it is a cited quote after all. What exaclty is your problem with it? Is it what the quote says, or is it how it is citated? I am confused. Blueboar 20:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's puffery. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 21:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As i've been saying all along as per that quote, it is a quote by a mason calling their own rituals "beautiful". If I was to make a page about myself and write that I am beautiful, and source a paper I wrote saying that I'm beautiful it would be removed. This is the same thing, the reason you guys give for keeping it that only masons can explain what the rituals are like because only masons participate in them is not valid.  Seraphim  22:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not the same thing. You are juxtaposing "I" and "a group", and using by analogy "I" and "I" to justify your objection.  So, your logic is faulty.  Actually, if you don't believe that only Masons can explain ritual, how (or who) else would you have do it?  And here we have the crux of the matter: you are criticizing and complaining without offering any solution except a circular argument, which is to say, no solution at all.  So, you don't like it.  Fine, what do you want us to do, given that there is no violation of any WP policy?  MSJapan 23:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Tag dosen't come off untill puffery leaves page. Problem solved! Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 01:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Roget's - "A systematic effort or part of this effort to increase the importance or reputation of by favorable publicity". Now explain to me how that quote fits this definition? However, as you're not going to be satisfied unitl you win your little victory, I'm going to remove the quote entirely, and so be it.  I'm tired of these piddly little arguments. MSJapan 01:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Also the tags about the merger and NPOV must stay untill we are done fixing Anti-Freemasonry. We can't discuss a merger untill the issues with the Anti-Freemasonry page are dealt with.  If you remove the NPOV tag, it will just be coming back in a few days once JASpencer decides to start on this article. Also that statement fits the defination of puffery to a t.  It is a statement by a mason, that alot of other masons quote, to increase the reputation of the masons, by saying that the rituals are beautiful.  I can't understand how that is not puffery.  Seraphim  01:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * "It is a statement by a Mason" - Who else, then, is going to know? I don't expect Bert and Ernie to explain quantum theory, and I don't expect a non-Mason to have the knowledge needed to make a statement about certain aspects of Masonry.
 * "that a lot of other Masons quote" - Oh? Where?  I never heard it until I got to this article, and I've never heard it or seen it used elsewhere besides Macoy's book.
 * "to increase the reputation of the Masons" - Again, how? We don't discuss ritual content with prospective candidates or with the public at large.  They are more interested in what we do for charity work and other things.  This is patent twisting for your own ends.
 * "by saying that the rituals are beautiful" - read the first line: "No one Mason speaks for Freemasonry". So explain to me how one quuote by one man a hundred years ago is a huge publicity machine?  Were that the case, we'd have what? 17 million members?  Instead, we've had a 40 year decline in membership.  So try again.
 * I'm really getting tired of everyone making blanket statements and not atr all thinking about ehat they're saying, much less all of a sudden assume they have the knowledge base necessary to make such a generalization. It is clear that you already have a set impression, regardless of any discussion that has gone on, and you're going to defend that impression no matter how many times anyone says otherwise.  Once again, not a solution, but another argument, has been offered as a "solution" to a "problem". MSJapan 02:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * A mason is making a subjective statement about a ritual that nobody else is able to witness and make their own opinions on. It is unverifiable, and it's not a fact. It doesn't belong in this article.  Seraphim  02:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the fact that the quote was made is verifiable, the book is publicly available, and no value judgment was made by anyone regarding that statement in the course of the article. Another example: Snapple's slogan is "made from the best stuff on Earth".  I Googled that phrase and got plenty of hits.  Now, I can't judge the veracity of the statement, as I'm not privy to Snapple's purchasing or manufacturing processes, but it's certainly relevant to Snapple.  Or is the existence of the statement not a fact either because you don't think it's correct?  If that's your reasoning, then we might as well AfD Anti-Freemasonry because I don't think the claims are correct.  You can't have it both ways.  MSJapan 10:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * A line needs to be drawn somewhere. The fact that he made that claim is verifiable, however it is being used in the article to push the POV that the rituals are "beautiful".  There is no way of verifying that the rituals are beautiful, and therefore it's purely POV.  If we include a quote like that, then everytime someone says in a published book that freemasonry rituals are anything but "beautiful" for example satanistic (which I do NOT believe i'm just using it as an example since it is a very widespread critisism), we would have to include that too, otherwise the article would be non NPOV, since both statements are equally unverifiable. If that line was being used in a historical way, for example if it was in the history of freemasons section and said a mason in the past has claimed that "blah insert quote here" that would be ok.  However the way it is used in the article makes it a POV statement.  Seraphim  11:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Semiprotected
For small respite from the sockpuppet army querulous newbies instantly attracted to this article - David Gerard 21:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like User:Computerjoe may have reverted it. Ardenn 21:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What does semi-protecting do?--Vidkun 21:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Prevents new users and anon users from editing the article. Ardenn 21:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ardenn] you make false accusation of sockpuppet as well as vandalize my edits, I have filed a complaint against you. I hope someone does a complete rewrite of this page, it is very lopsided in direction of Freemasonry. Many Church's have researched this organization and there are some excellent reports available on line at the moment with full references. This should be basis of this page, not slanted nonsense from Masonic websites!!![[User:Sunday Service|Sunday Service 21:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if there's sooo much info on Freemasonry, by Churches, all over the web which you prefer, why not read those instead? Grye 05:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 'All' the so-called investigations by churches (small c for a minority within) have started with the show trial verdict "guilty", and then twisted evidence to fit. The Spanish Inquisition and Nazi spectres still walk the Earth. Darth Dalek 19:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Too many invalid 3rr reports being filed
People this has to stop. Please if your going to file a 3rr make sure it is a valid one. If it's invalid it gives sympathy to the person you are filing it against. Take for example the most recent one against Sunday_Service Three revert rule violation on. :


 * 1st revert:
 * 2nd revert:
 * 3rd revert:
 * 4th revert:
 * 5th revert:

Reported by: Ardenn 21:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That is not in any way shape or form a 3rr violation. To have a 3rr violation you need to "revert" a page to an earlier state. What Ardenn labled 1st revert is a change to a section, not a revert. The 2nd and 3rd are reverts to his version that he created in the 1st diff. The "4th revert" is a change to yet another section not a revert in any way shape or form, and the 5th is a change to much more then he is reverting. That is 2 reverts (3 if you count the 5th as a revert, however technically it is not) inorder to report a 3rr violation you need 4 reverts in under 24 hours. Please stop posting invalid 3rr reports from this page. If someone is being disruptive filing an invalid 3rr is not going to get us anywhere. (this isn't just to ardenn I just pointed this one out since it is the most recent) Seraphim  22:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * See 3RR, WP:NPA. Ardenn 22:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See "this isn't just to ardenn I just pointed this one out since it is the most recent". Seraphim  22:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 3RR against vandalism, however, is allowed. Arbitration has confirmed that agenda pounding, such as what Lighbringer/Rathbone contributes, is a form of vandalism.  Now, that said, I agree that we should not just assume that someone who is new, and has issues with this Article is yet another Lighbringer/Basil puppet... but when they make the same edits, use the same editing style, and react to criticism in the same manner as Lightbringer/Basil, it does make one suspicious. Blueboar 01:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Proper use of ref tags
Tags need to be open and closed. Removing the closure starts doing odd things, like in Seraphim's edit, where the contents of some of the Masonic jurisdiction article ended up in the main article here where it made no sense.

I'm not so sure i like this tag format for editing purposes. There's a lot more trash in the paragraphs now. MSJapan 02:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That one was completly my error. The dif showed you leaving the final /ref tag, I didn't see that you deleted the /ref tag before that one.  T_T that's what I get for not hitting show preview.  Seraphim  02:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

page length
yaknow, this page would be like 1/4 the length if we just tossed Lightbringer's sections. I'm telling you know, my comments in ref to his are OK to go too. This section included. Grye 05:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ya, let's toss 'em. Ardenn 05:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Already have this discussion going under "Blanking/clean slate" Seraphim  06:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So, you think that a banned user's extensive comments should not be removed? Or? What is your statement in relation to an actual banned user's statements made with a sockpuppet? Because I'm pretty sure it's actual policy to wipe. Grye 06:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * OK I read deeper. I can see some arguement for not deleting, but what about patent nonsense, content-material, like Talk:Freemasonry? & archiving the rest? Grye 06:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The masonic secrets section I talked about is the one all the way at the top of the talk page not the one Lightbringer added, that section is called "Masonic Secrets" mine was "Masonic Secrets?", in that section we had a discussion on what to include in the page, and reached the conclusion that I should write a section based on verifiable facts about the existance of the secrets, not the contents of them. How you call that patent nonsence is beyond me, since the points I asked to include were taken from reference material already used in this article, and things that were told to me by the masonic editors on this page.  In a few days I will be starting work on that, and will make sure that the version posted to the article is NPOV all based on Fact and is approved by the majority of the editors on this page.  My argument against archiving that section is that I do intend to resume work on it shortly, I stopped while the basil stuff was going on because everyone went on the defencive.  With that said, I did change my mind and agreed to have a complete archive of this page in the section "User:Basil Rathbone is User:Lightbringer", however I noted that there must be sections about the NPOV and Merger tags immediatly placed on the talk page after the archiving is done since the tags cannot be placed on the page without them being discussed on the talk page.  And I will be restarting the masonic secrets? section once I have my section written up.   Seraphim  07:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The fact that legitimate comments designed to improve this Article are mixed in with the garbage Lighbringer/Basil posted makes it very difficult to sort out who said what, about what, and when. This is why I proposed (see above) just archiving the entire page and starting fresh with a new page.  We could start with a topic called: "Unfinished Business", and clearly list the areas people feel we need to work on.  I don't mind whiping the garbage and rants at the same time we archive.  (I would do all this myself, but I'm not up to that yet in my Wiki-skills.) Blueboar 13:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur with Bro.Blueboar. Darth Dalek 19:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Rename of section
I think their should be a section called 'Controvercy' instead of the 'Criticism, persecution, and prosecution'. The Controvery section should also explain to the reader about the popular circulation of consipiracy theories about this organization. What do you guys think? Tutmosis 15:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The only 'Controversy' is that pushed by anti-Masonic "religious" Political and simply daft Loonies, hence 'Criticism'. 'Persecution, and Prosecution' are historical facts, (a verifiable example from the former Communist Block is needed). It 'is' noted that most "naughty" Freemasons are the irregular sort - although the historically true US racism was in regular Freemasonry, (covered under Prince Hall). The section title fits. Darth Dalek 19:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)