Talk:Gaius Appuleius Diocles

Memoirs
Mannix claims that he published memoirs. Have these survived? Drutt (talk) 02:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Value of money
"Adjusted for inflation, as of 2014 his fortune was equivalent to about 15 billion USD."

This is ridiculous. A sestertius would have to have had the buying power of $420 for 38 million sesterces to equal $15 billion. 38 million sesterces is more like $190 million. 03:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.208.184 (talk)

Doing it by wages: Around that time, a soldier's annual wage was 1200 sestertii. 36m sestertii is 30,000 times that. 30,000 times the US median wage of $26000 is $780m. But living standards then were lower so $780m is too high.

Doing it by product: A sestertius could by two loaves of bread. Two loaves of bread nowadays costs $4. So 36m sestertii is $144m.

I've updated the article accordingly. cagliost (talk) 10:58, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

A previous edit with a calculation of the modern value of winnings based on basic goods was removed due to lack of source. I updated the article with a sourced calculation for the modern value of 38 million sesterces.Waxpapers (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The term "fantastic" in the sentence "That condition, however, arises from the fantastic assumption that, as his wealth would have been enough to fund the entire Roman Army for more than two months", is a POV term and should be removed. It is a false equivalence to link the amount of money he earned across a 24 year career and compare it to the amount of money needed to fund the Roman army for a 2 month period, as the basis for doubting this well attested fact. The amount of money he earned across those 24 years pales into insignificance when comparing it to the amount of money needed to fund the Roman army across the same period. Oatley2112 (talk) 11:18, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

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Problems with sources
I'm a bit concerned with the sources on this article. Both the telegraph article and the ancient-origins article repeat the $15 billion figure, but both quote the Struck Lapham article as their source as well. I think that we're getting a Circular reporting problem. Waxpapers (talk) 04:53, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, indeed we are, Waxpapers The problem with the Struck blog (and that's what it is, never mind his credentials) is that some of it stretches credibiity to breaking point. The newspaper articles - or r.ather, recycled press releases - just reinforce the problem. Say something enough times and it becomes plausible, cos "everyone" is saying it, and then, of course, it's Common Knowledge. I've deleted the news-site links. Unfortunately, one glaring difficulty remains, and it's right there in the Struck original, which claims that partisan race-goers threw curse tablets (nailed ones for good measure) at the opposing teams in the circus during races. That is completely and utterly inconsistent with everything I've read in conection with magical practises in Rome and with curse tablets specifically. And of course, someone without the background critical knowledge thought it was just what the Chariot racing article needed. And behold! It's now all over the internet. The problem is the Lapham's Quarterly's reputation, which is good - not so good that it shouldn't need checking - and Peter Struck is one of the regular contributors and a board member/editor. Why he chose to write what he did is truly beyond me. Haploidavey (talk) 13:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

And the figure of millions in this, that or the other currency being bandied about is almost certainly the prize money for the whole kit and caboodle - including the team players and management - before costs. Or so Golden (2004) vaguely implies. The idea that every charioteer paid a fee or reimbursement to his faction seems utterly basic. In other words, the racing factions, or rather, the faction Diocles belonged to at the time, would have got the lion's share because that's why they operated. We don't know what Diocles's share was, but rest assured, it wouldn't be all that much. And then there's the inflation of tombstone facts and figures through vanity... so we shouldn't be giving figures based on ignorance and guesswork. Haploidavey (talk) 13:16, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Birth place
The article says:"was born in approximately 104 A.D in Lamecum" but this is not correct. The birth place is unknown. There are only two epigraphic documents: a text from Rome and a second text that comes from the temple of the Fortune Primigenia of Praeneste (now Palestrina), where he decided to retire until the end of his days. The first one can be seen in the "Corpus Inscriptiorum Latinarum", VI, no. 10048. The sencond one, in XIV, no. 2884. The specific place of his birth does not appear in any of the documents, but you can read " Apuleius Diocles, natione hispanus lusitanus", so he was from Lusitania, but there is no evidence after all, that he was born in Lamecum. Furthermore, he did his debut in the circus of Augusta Emerita (the current town of Mérida in Extremadura, Spain), ancient capital of Lusitania, so he was probably from that region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.108.226.254 (talk) 04:36, 7 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. I've stripped the article back to its bare (sourced and cited) bones, removed the irrelevant image and connections from this article to others. I can find nothing to confirm Merida as place of his racing debut, so have removed this as well. If anyone can reliably source the Merida-Diocles claim, please do so. It's not in the first of the CIL primary sources (above), which I've linked from the article but might be in the second (from Praeneste). Haploidavey (talk) 05:55, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * It's not in the second either. The second is a dedication to the goddess, Fortuna Primigenia. It descibes Diocles as the leading charioteer among the Reds. Haploidavey (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I could not find either, any reliably source about Mérida. 79.108.226.254 (talk) 03:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * That's fine. We only need to repeat what's said and evidenced in reliable sources, and must not draw our own conclusions. Haploidavey (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Very flimsy basis for this article
No evidence has been offered for his being the "wealthiest" or even a "very very" wealthy athlete. Though it does look like he received an awful lot of prize money, we have no points of comparison with others. We don't know whether he was wdely celebrated in his own lifetime (a 24 year career is quite a stretch) or not, or to what extent. No ancient source, not even a graffito, mentions him, other than his two self-aggrandising and probably quite costly epitaphs; or maybe it's one honorific plaque from his compadres and one dedication to the goddess, from him or in his name. I've edited the introduction to reflect what's known. Haploidavey (talk) 06:42, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

The nine horses
Hello, I am very new to wikipedia and I am probably in the wrong place for this, but I want to know more about Diocleses horses, like their names or breed. The information about Centenerian horses or chariot horses in Ancient Rome is pretty scarce based on my research, so I would be grateful if anyone was able to provide me with some. Hobbitmaster911 (talk) 02:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi. Absolutely everything that's known about Diocles (and his horses) is covered by the two inscriptions which are the sole evidence for his life and career. They're given in the article text (sources and footnotes). Good luck with your research. Haploidavey (talk) 06:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)