Talk:Garderobe

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The note about deterring moths seems like sheer and utter nonsense. The OED has this to say about the etymology: "Properly, a locked-up chamber in which articles of dress, stores, etc. are kept, a store-room, armoury, wardrobe (occas. also the contents of this); by extension, a private room, a bed-chamber; also a privy." Carl T 14:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Bürresheim Castle
It seems a little odd to have a description of Bürresheim Castle (which doesn't really describe the garderobe, only that it had them) but of nowhere else - it would be better to either have a range from multiple castles, or none at all. --82.70.156.254 (talk) 02:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've been bold and commented it out (along with some other tidying up). Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone's resurrected it. Personally I don't see the point of this information: any other views? Dave.Dunford (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've restored it because it provides specific information about garderobes in a particular instance, information which is not in the article elsewhere. I agree that a range of examples would be best, but disagree that removing the one example we have currently available is the preferred option. The answer to improving the article is not to remove useful information because it is not ideal, but to add to the information to move it toward the ideal.  If, at some future point, there is information from too many different castles, then it can be pared down, but in the meantime, this is reffed information, and should notbe removed from the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not really convinced the quote is useful as it's given out of context. As it is, it raises more questions than it answers for the reader. Is Bürresheim typical or unusual in the placing of garderobes? Were they only on fifth floors, were they only found in keeps, were garderobes always found with chimneys? Also, is a quote really necessary in the first place? Is it worthwhile to keep the exact phrasing or couldn't it be rephrased, as Wikipedia encourages. With an explanation of why Bürresheim is significant, the quote isn't very useful. Just because it's referenced doesn't mean it's worth including. But, as you say, the article's not in great shape so one pretty much meaningless quote doesn't really matter much. Nev1 (talk) 19:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would agree with Nev1 - on its own, it does more harm than good to the article. If you can expand it to include other examples, great - but just one example doesn't help. It would be like the article on lavatories having a single, lengthy description about one very specific toilet - implying that what is true of that one instance is also true of all other instances. I would suggest copying the text into this Talk page until more examples can be found, if you're worried about the information becoming lost. --82.70.156.254 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

When I expanded the article, I was also not sure about Bürresheim. As Nev1 said, there is nothing unusual about Bürresheim having this kind of toilets, as it was pretty much the standard architecture of the time, and these toilets are found in medieval keeps throughout Germany and other countries. Bürresheim was probably added because its toilets are explicitly called "garderobes" in the cited book. My guess is that its mention was added as a kind of exemplary confirmation/reference to the use of "garderobe" as an euphemism for toilets, as by the time the lines were added, the article lacked sources confirming that use of the term. Since I have recently added another reference to an overview about the euphemistic and non-euphemistic uses of "garderobe", Bürresheim is not "needed" for that purpose anymore.

BeyondMyKen's arguments that a mention of Bürresheim does no harm and that examples are good have merit, too. We should however avoid making Bürresheim look like it is an exceptional case of castles outside England having garderobes, because it is not. It may rather serve as an example of a castle where these garderobes are still, because many castles were rebuild so often that the medieval garderobes got lost at some point. But even in this regard, Bürresheim is not exceptional, there are other castles that still have their garderobes today.

I'd thus say we need not remove Bürresheim completely, but make it look less exceptional. While the term garderobe hase a different meaning outside of England, we should use Bürresheim as an example that garderobes were not a feature of English castles only. I propose to replace the Bürresheim paragraph with something like: The second sentence can then use the reference given, and the quote or even the whole current Bürresheim paragraph could be added to within the ref tag. Is that an acceptable solution? Skäpperöd (talk) 08:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The construction of garderobes was not limited to England, they were also common in medieval castles on the continent. An example is Bürresheim Castle in Germany, where three garderobes are still visible today.


 * It's certainly an improvement on what's there now. Go for it. (PS: your reorganisation has greatly improved this article - good work.) Dave.Dunford (talk) 08:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed - a great improvement! --82.70.156.254 (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Dubious etymology
This is total WP:OR, but the etymology attributed in this article seems to be linguistically pretty shaky. "The name garderobe - which translates as guarding one's robes - is thought to come from hanging your clothes in the toilet shaft, as the ammonia from the urine would kill the fleas" cited in a BBC News article (which is apparently attributed to Lucy Worsely, curator of Historic Royal Palaces but actually appears almost verbatim on a sign at Donegal Castle). Looking around for sources, this statement seems unsupportable, as the ammonia would never build up to kill pests because the urine would evaporate, as it apparently just ran down the side of the building. Examples. Since there was no venting or trap, if the sewage was actually plumbed to a cistern, Hydrogen sulfide and Methane would have built up which possibly could have killed pests, but most likely would asphyxiate the users or explode, just like in modern plumbing. - CompliantDrone (talk) 17:36, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Merriam Webster says garderobe is from the Old French words garder and robe meaning to guard clothing so that part at least bears scrutiny (and A researcher's glossary of words found in historical documents of East Anglia is Old French though it doesn't give a derivation). This old source garderobes were used to store clothes as the smell kept away moths. It's more plausible than killing flees, but I'm tempted to remove the claim from the article. Nev1 (talk) 19:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)