Talk:Gaza imports

Discussions
RM on hold until AfD is over. Fences &amp;  Windows  13:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC) - ostensibly the list, if moved, could be longer. In any case the official list is slated to be reconceptualized in accord with prohibitive constraints. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 19:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

List is useful, encyclopedic, deserves a space, factual, about human rights, whoever tags it has no deep understanding of the conflict at all. Kasaalan (talk) 17:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be in your best interests to curb your personal attacks and address the subject matter, rather than attack other editors. I have now sent the matter to AfD. Tarc (talk) 23:32, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a deep understanding of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Are you an expert. Do you have interest/reading/knowledge in the area. Do you have expertise/knowledge in the historical background. If you claim any expertise on the field provide any link to any of your contributions or do not claim personal attack while there is none. Kasaalan (talk) 14:35, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Who I am or what my background is is none of your flippin business, to be blunt. Focus on the argument itself rather than attacking the arguer (i.e. Argumentum ad hominem), if you would.  Thanks. Tarc (talk) 15:12, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've removed this tag until the AfD is over. And really, saying someone doesn't understand the conflict is not a personal attack; don't overreact. Fences  &amp;  Windows  13:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a common tactic used in this topic area, "if you aren't Israeli/Palestinian/Jew/Arab then you don't understand what the problem really is". I have zero tolerance for that, from either side of their mucked-up ideological spectrum. Tarc (talk) 17:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It does seem to take things to a personal angle by discussion the qualifications of a specific editor. Certainly not appropriate talk page conduct. Marokwitz (talk) 08:24, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * To AFD nominator: I am not racially affiliated to the Israel-Palestine issue myself, so don't even claim what I don't claim. I don't know if you are or aren't "Israeli/Palestinian/Jew/Arab." I don't know you, I don't care about you as long as you don't PROD or AFD articles you didn't contribute, without notifying actual page contributors. I claimed anyone doesn't have any idea about the conflict if he/she claims banned/permitted item list is trivial and unspecific collection of items. And you couldn't answer if you have any expertise/academic background/strong reading/contribution in the conflict or not. Kasaalan (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no requirement that one must be an article participant in order to initiate a deletion discussion; I see a shit article, I nominate it for deletion, simple as that. If you spent less time making up rules and guidelines that you think other editors should follow and more on figuring out how things actually work here, you might encounter less acrimony. Tarc (talk) 22:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why did you rush PROD then AFD on a recently developing article without any CONSENSUS/DEBATE with MAIN/FORK article users or making any RESEARCH/CONTRIBUTION or notifying MAIN/FORK article/Related PORTAL users about your swift PROD/AFD insistence. According to my experience most of the NPOV AFD nominators notifies recent/major contributors about their AFD nomination, and most of the HOV editors don't. Personally I have spent hours updating the table/finding RS for the article, and how much did your PROD/AFD process take, 5 minutes or less. Kasaalan (talk) 11:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Jesus H. tap-dancing christ, will you stop bellyaching about this? The "article" was piss-poor and not even remotely encyclopedic.  The amount of work expended in producing poor quality articles is not relevant to me. I strongly suggest that you stop carping about the past and take what the closing admin said (it is included at the top of this page) and see if this mess can be salvaged.  If it cannot, then I or someone else will likely file a 2nd AfD in a month or so.  This will be the last response I make on this. Tarc (talk) 13:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest you to stop swearing like a junior school kid while talking to other editors. You repetitiously swear, you show no effort in improving the article while whining/patronising all the time. You did not take any necessary pre-WP:AFD processes, show no effort on even notifying other users about your self-insisted AFD or seek any consensus before/after your swift PROD/AFD while the artile is in progress, you still use vulgar tone before/during/after AFD. You can tell by his talk page Admin should self-follow his own "commands" on behaving first before preaching others. The AFD process was completely unhealthy so I interrupted. The content is encyclopedic since it is notable and verifiable about a serious humanitarian crisis. It is also related to other civillian injuries like Hamas rocket attacks etc. And needed by many MAIN articles. The extensive blockade lead to other notable issues like Gaza flotilla raid. How many times you sweared or used vulgar tonge in your replies already, you even insulted Christian beliefs, yet still offended by the "he has no deep understanding of the conflict at all" as a comment. You are truly sensitive. Kasaalan (talk) 11:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Also I am not sure if the admin even read your direct insults/swears/behaviour to me or other users. My "aggresive" replies were only a reaction against your self-centered I-am-no-expert-in-the-area-I-can't-even-argue-I-have-read-books-about-the-conflict-I-still-make-comments-like-an-expert-and-I-swear-if-anyone-asks-me-any-questions-about-my-level-of-knowledge-and-get-offended-I-will-not-make-any-effort-in-researching-any-reference-or-seek-any-consensus-before-starting-PROD/AFD-while-actual-contributors-are-away-since-I-selfclaim-the-multiple-RS-article-is-"trash"-and-I-will-show-no-effort-in-notifying-anyone-about-AFD-while-enjoying-a-random-AFD-with-a-few-users-who-did-not-even-edit-that-page-then-I-directly-swear-users-before/during/after-AFD-when-they-object-my-opinions-or-behaviour-and-still-cannot-be-grateful-they-don't-make-a-big-deal-out-of-it-so-I-am-trying-to-bring-it-anywhere-to-start-a-quarrel-and-lower-other-users-credibility policy. Kasaalan (talk) 14:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

From the AfD
"some lists are available online, these are written by different NGO and other organization and all vary greatly in content" (quote from User:Raisescale)
 * These should be referenced, and salient differences mentioned. Rich Farmbrough, 20:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC).
 * I think the closing admin was right on. If this is to have any chance at being acceptable, it needs to be turned back into a list and the prose need to be ripped out. The introduction should be concise and not a quote farm demonizing Israel. Maybe if people want to get it to FL then the lead can be expanded but I frankly don't trust a detailed introduction to keep on track. See WP:LIST.Cptnono (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of the textual content was added by delete voter Marokwitz anyway I respected his edits and did not delete them because background info is useful. And he is editing the article adding content which shows his efforts. On the other hand we may always merge info with main page. The main issue was updating/merging the table and referencing it, which took my hours since I am alone. Kasaalan (talk) 11:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the way it works sometimes. Marokwitz was wrong to do so even though there may have been nothing wrong with the attempt. Really the only way for this to not be a POV fork is to remove the duplicate and biased prose and simply rely on the list and a lead. There are lists for all sorts of stuff (not that OTHERSTUFF is a valid argument) so it might be worth trying to keep it as an actual list.Cptnono (talk) 11:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It will never work as a list-type article, the contents of the list have varied greatly over time, and the accounts are widely conflicting, and the sources for this list themselves say that it is not official rather based on circumstantial evidences, so there is no single list, and it is not possible to summarize this complex information into a simple list without falling into original research / original synthesis category. Marokwitz (talk) 12:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it is time to propose a merge or another AfD.Cptnono (talk) 20:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

This article is now drifting into a content fork
I wouls sugest returning it to just a listSlatersteven (talk) 12:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As I wrote previously, it will never work as a list-type article, the contents of the list have varied greatly over time, and the accounts are widely conflicting, and the sources for this list themselves say that it is not official rather based on circumstantial evidences. Also there are two countries involved in the blockade (Israel and Egypt), each with it's own lists and incidents of allowed and blocked items. So there is no single list, and it is not possible to summarize this complex information into a simple list without falling into original research / original synthesis category. Since the article is being kept, the I think we should take material related to Goods allowed/banned for import into Gaza from the main blockade article and move it into here, thus avoiding content fork and shortening the main article. Marokwitz (talk) 12:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * List articles do not need to be a single list. This one is even an FL. If it is not possible to make this a list then maybe it is simply not appropriate as an article.Cptnono (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * WP:FORKs are recommended when the WP:MAIN articles are WP:TOOLONG we might have or not have the background text sections. I respect adding info and editing efforts, yet we may also merge the textual content. I support both ways, yet if the info will be substracted we should merge them and not delete. Kasaalan (talk) 10:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The majority of the prose are already duplicated in the other article. The list isn't. This is a clear fork that might have been sustainable as a list but now just needs to be deleted.Cptnono (talk) 04:55, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The list on it's own and without context is utterly meaningless. Marokwitz (talk) 05:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So the list is meaningless and this is duplicated information. So delete it then?Cptnono (talk) 05:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The be more precise, I said the list is meaningless WITHOUT CONTEXT. The policy compliant and best solution, as long as there is no consensus to delete, is to remove the duplicate information from the OTHER article, turn them into summary style, and link to here. Marokwitz (talk) 06:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why?Cptnono (talk) 06:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

This way we can avoid duplication, and shorten the main article. As said above, WP:FORKs are recommended when the WP:MAIN articles are WP:TOOLONG. Marokwitz (talk) 08:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What article do you feel is too long? Readable prose of 2007–present blockade of the Gaza Strip is only 48k. Tarc (talk) 15:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not at all too long. About 6,500 words and <44K readable prose. It is within the limits and well within what is usually accepted. Please reread TOOLONG. You would actually be reducing the quality of the other article since it is a decent enough size to put it up for GA or even FA if all of the other improvements were taken care of. Many improvements would be needed of course.Cptnono (talk) 23:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was and still am in support of deleting this article, but as long as there is no consensus to delete it, the same information should not be duplicated in the main article. That's my opinion. And I do think that the main article has long and tedious lists that are better moved to here, as long as this article is kept, since they make the original article boring and unreadable. Marokwitz (talk) 12:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In my opinion most of the text should be merged with main article. But having text might also be useful. We actually need more user opinions.
 * If we add the table does it stay below or higher than 10.000 or 44 KB. Kasaalan (talk) 14:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that tables are not readable prose so it shouldn't matter size wise. It might look a little silly though. The BBC article could always just be an external link or inline citation.Cptnono (talk) 01:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It will undoubtedly be deleted from the main article if added there since it is overly detailed and will give undue weight to minute details. Marokwitz (talk) 06:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * And since it is not done correctly here the only option is deletion.Cptnono (talk) 06:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Separate tables for main item types or not
The list is harder to manage when we have all item types. What is your opinion about having separate tables for main item types like nutrition, hygiene products, construction, houldhold items and agriculture needs etc. It would be much easier to manage, read and update. Kasaalan (talk) 10:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There should be separate tables for allowed and blocked items. Mixing them together is very strange. This is much more important than splitting by categories. Marokwitz (talk) 12:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually categorization is important. Too many items exist. I made 2 columns for that reason, the dates the items banned [we don't have that info yet for each particular item] and the date they are allowed. I will give it a try for separate tables.
 * What we list in the article are actually still blocked items and the allowed items since 2009-2010 among those blocked items. As you can tell all the allowed items had been banned for a period pre/after 2007 especially after Hamas got elected and attack with rockets etc. which resulted an extensive blockade in 2007. Kasaalan (talk) 12:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's incorrect to imply the "allowed items" were ever banned, the sources do not say so. The source that is cited is a source of allowed items. Having an empty column with no dates is certainly not professional. Marokwitz (talk) 12:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually they say so. There is a May and a June version of the item list for example. For example In the June version some of the items previouslly banned crossed out and listed as allowed. Kasaalan (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I remind you those are primary sources. We need to stick to the secondary sources we have. Marokwitz (talk) 06:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Reliable Secondary sources BBC and Gisha who creates their own independent report based on primary sources. Since Israel declines publishing such a list, the table is currently the best and most reliable source to be found. Kasaalan (talk) 11:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Gisha are a primary source. They compiled the list themselves. BBC is a secondary source. Marokwitz (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Housing/Basic needs
Requires fixed column width, and some more sorting however I have separated tables. Kasaalan (talk) 11:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Tagging
WP:NOTDIR, point 7. Chesdovi (talk) 12:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Not all possible details are listed. Mainly the basic human needs who are reported by a-internationally accepted media organisation BBC reseach, and b- Israeli Human Rights Organisation: Gisha are listed. Kasaalan (talk) 17:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Strictly limited to the items banned by Israel during 2009-2010, after the 2007 Israeli blockade. Kasaalan (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the lists above and tell me "Not all possible details are listed". BBC? That would contravene WP:NOTNEWS. Chesdovi (talk) 18:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Goods allowed/banned for import into Gaza (2nd nomination)

 * Admin's decision:
 * "The table itself does not meet Wikipedia polices regarding Copyvio and Primary source so would need to be removed entirely. The BBC list may be linked to rather than copied, while the BBC article mentioning the list may be used for content for RS commentary on the list. The gisha list declares that it is unverified, so is speculation, and the organisation is promotional so should be used with care per WP:POORSRC. I am minded that people have commented that they find the list useful because it encyclopedic to know what items have been banned or permitted, however, as the sources are speculative and state that Isreal deals with matters on a case by case basis, the list is misleading. The article should reflect what can be verified, and make clear what is speculation. A list makes things appear more certain than they are."


 * BBC internationally accepted, 3rd party WP:RS, It made a research by multiple sources http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm
 * "BBC News has seen documents, submitted to an Israeli Court, which give more detail than ever before about how and why Israel maintains its Gaza blockade."
 * "Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis ." [there is no official publicly published list]
 * " Items allowed have changed over time, which has left humanitarian organizations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved." [the list have changed over time]
 * "The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha. The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation , to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why." [Gisha took the case to the Israeli court in January, requesting data using freedom of information legislation to force government publish the list]
 * "Now, after several months' waiting, the state has given its response to the court, in a written submission, seen by the BBC." [BBC saw the papers state provided to the court]
 * "It throws a small pool of light on the process behind the blockade. The overall rationale is set out, in bold type: "The limitation on the transfer of goods is a central pillar in the means at the disposal of the State of Israel in the armed conflict between it and Hamas." [Israel states the blockade is because Hamas is in rule]
 * "The Israeli authorities also confirm the existence of four documents related to how the blockade works: how they process requests for imports into Gaza, how they monitor the shortages within Gaza, their approved list of what is allowed in, and a document entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex. " [4 documents are confirmed by state on how blockade works. How they process import requests. How they monitor shortages in Gaza. Their approved list of what is allowed in. A document called "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex.]


 * Other detailed Research by BBC on the extent of Blockade: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
 * BBC List of Banned Items http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_05_10_gazaimports.pdf
 * "Source: Confidential information from international groups, compiled by the BBC. (The list refers to goods brought in by commercial importers. Humanitarian organisations, including UN agencies, also bring goods into Gaza. They have consistently been allowed to bring in staple foods and medicines, while other items are approved or rejected on a case-by-case basis)." [ Confidential information from international groups, compiled by the BBC. ]


 * Gisha is internationally credited Israeli Human Rights Organisation [So Gisha is Israeli, they only gathered information from Palestinians and other International Organisations]
 * May 2010 Report June 2010 Report
 * "The following list is approximate and partial, and it changes from time to time. It is based on information from Palestinian traders and businesspersons, international organizations, and the Palestinian Coordination Committee, all of whom "deduce" what is permitted and what is banned based on their experience requesting permission to bring goods into Gaza and the answers they receive from the Israeli authorities (approved or denied)." [List is partial, changes time to time, based on personal/real life experiences of Palestinians' requests and answers they receive from Israeli authorities]
 * "It is not possible to verify this list with the Israeli authorities because they refuse to disclose information regarding the restrictions on transferring goods into Gaza." [list is verifiable by experience, list is not verifiable by Israeli authorities, since they do not reveal information]
 * "It should be noted that Israel permits some of the "prohibited" items into Gaza (for example: paper, biscuits, and chocolate), on the condition that they are for the use of international organizations, while requests from private merchants to purchase them are denied." [some items are available for international organizations]

The case is not as simple as admin claim. Gisha is a credited Israeli Human Rights organisation. BBC is already 3rd party RS. The list is unverified by Israeli state since they do not reveal every specific information, but in real life practice they ban specific items. Case by case basis refers to arbitrary practices, it doesn't mean the item types aren't banned. Kasaalan (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the administrator made a good call. There is no reason to duplicate the source here. Wikipedia is not wikisource. We can summarize their results of the research, which is what encyclopedias do. Gisha are not a reliable source, and BBC just republished their research without claim that it is reliable. On the contrary, they noted that it is not considered accurate. Publishing it as a list makes it appear as more credible and definitive than it is actually is. And the way the table was presented (mixing allowed and blocked items) was extremely confusing. Marokwitz (talk) 06:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So time to remove the table per the admin's comments? Actually wasn't something even though of when nominating it but it makes sense.Cptnono (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Gisha is an accurate source, which credible source claims otherwise, BBC made their own research not republished Gisha . "Allowed items" you refer are already previously banned items, so there is no confusion. The Israeli court case is in progress, if they have a resolution it will be easier to update the table. I will create a summary table instead all item types later. Kasaalan (talk) 10:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Might be best to present a draft first. It would be a shame to go through the effort to have it removed.Cptnono (talk) 11:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Article needs a rewrite
Most of this article features outdated information from being Israel eased the blockade, yet presents this information in the present tense as if it were current.

The article needs to differentiate between the conditions of the blockade pre June 17 2010 and post. Drsmoo (talk) 03:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or a deletion. There is another article this can go into. That along with the lack of effort means that it is too poor to be live.Cptnono (talk) 06:34, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

More recent data (Jul 4 2010)
This article was discussed on reddit. During the discussion I got a more recent .il source: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Lists_Controlled_Entry_Items_4-Jul-2010.htm

--Kim Bruning (talk) 13:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Expanding the scope of the topic
---Not much has been changed on this page in recent years. How about expanding it to include both imports AND exports? That would restore balance to the viewpoint. The list of exports is more interesting in recent years than the outdated banned imports list. ---Labellesanslebete (talk) 19:25, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

In the news
This article was mentioned in the guardian in august 2010: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/18/wikipedia-editing-zionist-groups  --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

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this is the worst article I've ever read
like seriously i was going through trying to find sources on gaza import restrictions, found this article, and suddenly i was transported back to the year 2011, i mean im all for nostalgia (god i miss battle field 3) as much as the next anonymous wikipedia commenter but seriously. also some of the sources already present dont match up with the text which is really strange

im not a editor but anyone with half a temporal lobe and a keyboard can criticize this article 2001:56A:774D:F300:D81E:87BF:8D28:BD77 (talk) 11:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

some imports infos might be wrong.
I saw some external conversation about this cookie ban being real or not and this article + this document popped out. I'm not sure how you guys weight sources or how to find if this document is official but this is apparently an unclassified document and an interview stating that the ban was only for private sources and not for humanitarian sources. https://www.npr.org/2010/06/09/127600204/israeli-official-disputes-list-of-banned-gaza-products https://drive.google.com/file/d/12U4n_yjBIH6VlTNn-pa6xGkfz4kDbc3A/view Sydaske (talk) 13:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)