Talk:George S. Boutwell

Elector
This asserts that Boutwell was a Presidential elector for Bryan in 1900; should that be ran for? He was not an Elector unless his slate took the state, and Boutwell lived in Massachusetts, which went for McKinley. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Recommended Improvements
I recommend that this article be improved. Any objections? Cmguy777 (talk) 21:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Improvements have been made to the article. Thanks for all editors who have helped out. More needs to be done. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:17, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

On 3-23-2013 I deleted an incorrect reference to the 13th Amendment from the Boutwell article, and my change appeared in the Boutwell article. I included a reference to a source to explain why I made that deletion. After doing so, I hadn't looked at the Boutwell article until today; now I see that my change is apparently still in the article, but I cannot find any history of my change in the View history area. Does that indicate that something is wrong with the way the View history area for this article is working? RW7890 (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I do see your edit in there. SteveStrummer (talk) 21:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Mr. Strummer. I obviously don't know my way around; I see my contribution all spelled out as I wrote it when I click on the "your edit" link you provided but I still nothing about it when I click on the Boutwell article's View History. On 15 May I saw nothing in the my Contributions area, but today when I go to my Contributions area I see the Boutwell contribution that I made. RW7890 (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Removed POV
I removed undo criticism of Secretary Boutwell and POV. Wikipedia is not meant to bash a person's reputation whether alive or dead. The following has been removed from the article.


 * "''Boutwell did little to withdraw paper currency from circulation, shaping his financial policy to forestall either inflation or deflation. Intellectual critics saw in these actions a want of guiding principle and a lack of solid theoretical knowledge. "He believed in knowledge just so far as it was convenient for him to justify his own theory that knowledge was a deception," Henry Adams wrote in a much-quoted analysis in 1870. "He believed in common schools, and not in political science; in ledgers and cash-books, but not in Adam Smith or Mill; as one might believe in the multiplication-table, but not in Laplace or Newton. By a natural logic he made of his disbelief in the higher branches of political science a basis for his political practice, and thus grounding action on ignorance he carried out his principle to its remotest conclusions."  But in a very corrupt time, it spoke well of Boutwell that nobody thought that he made money out of his Cabinet post, either for himself or his friends. Living within his salary, he lodged in a boarding-house throughout his tenure. His only pleasures lay in writing lectures and playing billiards or poker  -- though never for money.  "He is an inaccessible man, uninfluenced by fear, favor, affection or hope of reward, and does not burst out into brillian exhibitions of love or hatred," a New England politician wrote his brother.


 * "Boutwell's financial policy was less dogmatic than pragmatic."


 * Liberal reformers had hoped that he would embrace civil service reform and rush the country towards the resumption of specie payments; but while Boutwell appointed subordinates on the basis of merit for the most part,, he did little to rein in the spoils system outside of Washington, remaining on friendly terms with the party bosses."


 * Let's try to keep criticism focused on his policy. We should not over praise or bash Boutwell's reputation. One thing is clear was that he was "haughty" or "inaccessable". I don't beleive Boutwell was a nice man to be around, but that does not mean we need to denegrate his character. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:54, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Crédit Mobilier of America scandal
Boutwell was also involved, implicated, and investigated in the notorious Crédit Mobilier scandal of 1872, which please see. ☺  Dick Kimball (talk) 15:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

On quarantining blacks
Recent anonymous edits have added the claim that Boutwell "may have been chiefly interested in quarantining African-Americans in the South where they could not compete for the wages of Northern working men." This claim cites an article by Gene Dattel (link to article PDF), in which he argues that Boutwell supported the idea that several Southern states be "designated exclusive black states". In support of this Dattel quotes a Boutwell speech dated July 20, 1866 (full text available here). The problem is, Dattel's analysis is flawed, and the speech does not IMHO support this claim. Boutwell's argument in the speech is, that if a just policy is not enacted (in Boutwell's opinion, one requiring suffrage for African Americans before a rebellious state is readmitted), then blacks would move north to states where they had voting rights. He's describing this migration as a consequence of a policy he opposes, and is not putting forward any sort of argument about either isolation or "quarantine" (the word presently used in this article).

I have no particular evidence whether Boutwell shared the not-uncommon racist views of many Northern politicians, but this bit does not strike me as a good indicator either way. Dattel's assertion strikes me as a bit of a fringe view, and should (if it is retained at all) not be expressed in the editorial voice.  Magic ♪piano 04:19, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

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1. The edit says that Boutwell "*may* have been chiefly interested in quarantining African-Americans in the South..." It does *not* say that Boutwell definitely held that view. Thus, the language of the Wikipedia article is moderated from (source) Gene Dattel's statement that "Boutwell advocated civil rights for blacks to keep them in the South."

2. Boutwell's speech states:

"I bid the people, the working peoples of the North, the men who are struggling for subsistence to beware the day when the Southern freedmen shall swarm over the borders in quest of rights which should be secured to them in their own states...An unjust policy on our part...forces [the freedman] from [his] home to those [Northern] states where his rights are protected to the injury of the black man and white man in the North."

Since less than 2% of the population of the Northern states were blacks (as compared to 40% in the South) Boutwell's remark was targeted at the racial fears among the white Northern working class that a migration of freedmen from the South into the Northern states would produce massive new competition for jobs.

3. Gene Dattel's conclusion stated in his September 2015 article is not a fringe opinion. Historian Avery Craven echoed the same verdict in his 1969 book, "Reconstruction,"which is cited at the end of the applicable paragraph in the Wikipedia article. Finally, Gene Dattell is not a "fringe" historian. His book "Cotton and Race in the Making of America" is praised by many respected critics, historians and academic journals. 96.59.84.189 (talk) 15:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Just because Boutwell's speech targets racial fears does not mean he has them himself, or that his conditional statement supports a personal belief that the described outcome of the unjust policy is a Bad Thing. Consider that modern politicians say things targeted to specific audiences all the time; this strikes me as a similar instance.  Furthermore, if you really want to ascribe to hime the idea of "isolation" or "quarantine" as a goal, you're going to need stronger evidence, because that speech (by itself) doesn't say anything of the sort.  Dattel's article contains no supporting sources beyond the speech; words like "isolation" (used by Dattel), and "quarantine" (used by you) suggest that mechanisms are being proposed, when none are (civil rights have got to be the worst mechanism for implementing and enforcing quarantine or isolation of the population to which they are granted). I have not seen Craven yet, but will probably get a look at his work next week.  Magic ♪piano 17:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

MagicPiano needs to supply evidence, beyond his HO, that Boutwell did not intend to discourage blacks from moving into the Northern states when the Congressman said that failing to give blacks the political rights in the South that they held in *some* Northern states would lead the blacks to "swarm across the borders" into the Northern states. The Congressman further amplified his prediction that a failure of his political agenda would lead to "the bitter penalty (for Northern whites) of transgression" (.i.e. black migration) into the overwhelmingly white Northern states.

Thus, Boutwell's own words clarify that he was aware his political agenda would discourage blacks from migrating to the North from the South and that such discouragement would benefit his voter constituency, which was over 98% white.

It is important to note that Boutwell mentioned no concerns about Southern *white* migration into the Northern states. Instead he revealed his own underlying racism by only warning against *black* migration. HIs racism is further disclosed by his segregationist proposal to set aside Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina as states reserved exclusively for blacks.

I have provided three sources indicating that Boutwell desired to block black migration into the Northern states. In contrast, MagicPiano has provided *no* citations supporting his HO that Boutwell did *not* have such a desire. If MagicPiano has such sources, let him now provide them. 96.59.84.189 (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You have not provided three sources, you have provided at best your own analysis and that of Dattel, of a single part of a single speech given by Boutwell. Craven merely repeats a fragment of Boutwell's speech, along with Roscoe Conkling's more overtly racist desire to see blacks stay in the South.  He does no analysis of Boutwell's speech whatsoever, and it is one of only a very small times Boutwell's name is mentioned in his book.  There is no text bearing any similarity to Dattel's claims about Boutwell.
 * Dattel makes the claim that Boutwell proposes isolating Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina both in his article and his book. In neither place does he provide supporting documentation (and it doesn't appear in Boutwell's 1866 speech).  In searching through at least half a dozen books on Reconstruction I was unable to locate any indication of where this notion originates.  Those same sources were also silent on claims that Boutwell had racist motivation (while not glossing over the issues Northern politicians had over their own states' issues with black suffrage).
 * I place in opposition to Dattel's singular claim the raft of Boutwell's writings, and the opinions of scholars such as Eric Foner. They considered Radical Republicans (with Boutwell often cast in a leading role) to be overwhelmingly concerned with civil rights. This is on top of the patently silly notion that migration can be blocked or impeded by the granting of civil rights.  Magic ♪piano 21:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Compulsory education act
Massachusetts Compulsory School Attendance Law of 1852.

During the time of Governor Boutwell the Massachusetts Compulsory School Law of 1852 was passed - the first measure of its kind in the United States. Surely his position on this measure should be addressed by the article?2A02:C7D:B5E6:6400:2CC2:C9B5:3C98:FC65 (talk) 12:17, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

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