Talk:German Americans/Archive 3

List of German Americans
Suprise to see Elon Musk there, though he may have some partial German heritage, he is clearly regarded and identifies as a South African (albeit with a Canadian mother) who became a naturalized US citizen in 2002. Nobody no even himself would regard him as a German-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.135.93.68 (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The numbers part
It already states int he right bar there are 50 million. It looks unprofiessional and silly to have it reapeated again when the figures are pretty much right next to each other. Why have them repeated? especially when the two statsitics are right by each other? It just comes off as odd to me. It's already stated there are 50 million. I think it's silly to have this repeated again, espiecally int he first line ont he whole article page, when the statistics are on top in the right bar Superjump0099 (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * As explained in this edit summary, the material in the infobox is a summary of, not a replacement for, the material in the article. The article's introduction is also supposed to summarise the article, and that is a key piece of information. Moreover, not all of the material you removed is covered by the infobox. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * What this has highlighted, however, is the contradictory population figures given in the article. From a quick scan, I see 50,764,352, 50 million, 49.8 million, 42,902,103... Cordless Larry (talk) 21:10, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, but listed three times so close to each other? It's said again int he second paragraph. And on the right bar. What's wrong with just listing it twice? (once in the summary part and once on the right bar) Superjump0099 (talk) 21:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I think we should combine the two mentions in the introduction, but first we need to work out what figure is correct/most recent. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The 49.8 and 50.7 are pretty close together. I think they both give a close range as to the number. We could just leave the sources to both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Superjump0099 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 18 March 2016‎ (UTC)

World War I
The WWI section has to cover the entire country, so giving 75% of the space to Minnesota is unwise. We need a new article on German Amerricans in WWI-- it can include Internment of German Americans. Rjensen (talk) 06:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Child, Clifton J. “German-American Attempts to Prevent Exportation of Munitions.” Mississippi Valley Historical Review. 12, no. 3. (December 1938): 351-368. in JSTOR
 * 2) Craig, Sarah M. "The Hun in the heartland: three Missouri German-American communities during the great war." PhD Diss. 2015. online
 * 3) DeWitt, Petra. Degrees of Allegiance: Harassment and Loyalty in Missouri’s German American Community During World War I Ohio University Press, 2012.
 * 4) Detjen, David W. The Germans in Missouri, 1900-1918: prohibition, neutrality, and assimilation. University of Missouri Press  (1985).
 * 5) Divjak, Helen, and Lee Ann Potter. "Alien enemy registration during World War I.(Teaching with Documents)." Social Education 66.5 (2002): 263-269.
 * 6) Fischer, Gerhard. Enemy aliens: internment and the homefront experience in Australia, 1914-1920. Univ of Queensland Pr, 1989.
 * 7) Geldmacher, Achim. Die Deutschen in Ann Arbor: eine Studie über das Leben deutscher Einwanderer in den USA, 1810-1918 Verlag Die Blaue Eule, 1993.
 * 8) Gibbs, Christopher C. The Great Silent Majority: Missouri’s Resistance to World War I  University Missouri Press, 1988.
 * 9) Hegi, Benjamin Paul.  “‘Old Time Good Germans’: German-Americans in Cooke County, Texas, during World War I.”  The Southwestern Historical Quarterly 109, no. 2 (October 2005): 234-257.
 * 10) Hofmeister, Rudolf A. The Germans of Chicago. Stipes Pub Llc, 1976.
 * 11) Kazal, Russell A. Becoming Old Stock: The Paradox of German-American Identity.  Princeton University Press, 2004.
 * 12) Keller, Phyllis. States of Belonging: German-American Intellectuals and the First World War. Harvard University Press, 1979.
 * 13) Lewis, Michael. "Access to saloons, wet voter turnout, and statewide prohibition referenda, 1907–1919." Social Science History 32.03 (2008): 373-404.
 * 14) Luebke, Frederick C. Bonds of Loyalty: German-Americans and World War I. Northern Illinois University Press, 1974  the single most important book
 * 15) McCaffery, Robert Paul. Islands of Deutschtum: German-Americans in Manchester, New Hampshire and Lawrence, Massachusetts, 1870-1942. (Peter Lang 1996.)
 * 16) Miller, Liesl K. "The Great War: Ethnic Conflict for Chicago's German-Americans." OAH Magazine of History 2.4 (1987): 46-52.
 * 17) Nagler, Jorg.  “Victims of the Home Front: Enemy Aliens in the United States during the First World War.”  In Minorities in Wartime: national and Racial Groupings in Europe, North America and Australia during the Two World Wars, edited by Panikas Panay, 191-215.  Berg Publishers Ltd., 1993.
 * 18) Probst, George Theodore, and Eberhard Reichmann. The Germans in Indianapolis, 1840-1918 (German-American Center & Indiana German Heritage Society, 1989).
 * 19) Tischauser, Leslie V.  The Burden of Ethnicity: The German Question in Chicago, 1914-1941 (1992):
 * 20) Tolzmann,  Don H. ed., German-Americans in the World Wars, 5 vols. (K.G. Saur, 1995–1998), ISBN 3-598-21530-4  vol. 1: The Anti-German Hysteria of World War One; vol. 2: The World War One Experience; vol. 3: Research on the German-American Experience of World War One.
 * 21) Wasserman, Ira M. "Prohibition and ethnocultural conflict: The Missouri Prohibition referendum of 1918." Social Science Quarterly 70.4 (1989): 886.
 * 22) Wittke, Carl.  “American Germans in Two World Wars.”  The Wisconsin Magazine of History 27, no. 1 (September 1943): 6-16.

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Whatever Happened to German America?
From the op-ed "Whatever Happened to German America?" by Erik Kirschbaum, author of Burning Beethoven: The Eradication of German Culture in the United States During World War I:


 * "Still, while German-American culture might be extinct, German-Americans have continued to make a mark on the country...
 * Yet as the centennial of World War I passes and the 25th anniversary of German unification nears, there are some tender shoots of a renascent German-American identity.
 * It may be that an identity lost can never be regained. But why not try? It would be good for everyone, reminding millions of Americans that they too are the products of an immigrant culture, which not long ago was forced into silence by fear and intolerance."

I have yet to see any evidence of the second sentence. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

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Parenthetical Note in the Beginning
Unless someone can defend this statement with evidence,

" (Due to changes in the way demographic surveys are carried out in the United States English-Americans who are the largest ethnicity group in America have become seriously under-counted due to the new 'American' category)"

I am going to delete.

English Americans are not "the largest ethnicity group" in the US. In order to make them the largest group, some editor(s) here have taken it upon themselves to lump in the entire American category with the English category, based on the assumption that the entire American category is filled with people who are of English descent. And the entire American category would have to be filled with people of English descent for this to be true, for even if you were to combine both categories together, the new super category still wouldn't be larger than the German bloc. You would have to combine the American category with the English category plus the measly 0.4 percent of "British" Americans just to edge slightly above German Americans.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf

The evidence shows that there were massive drops in many European ethnic groups since the introduction of the American category, including the many millions who dropped from both the German and Irish category. In the 1990 census there were over 15% claiming Irish ancestry and just over 10% claiming it on the 2000 census, while the German category dropped from over 23% to just over 15%. The largest drop on the last two censuses occurred in the German category. So where did all of these Germans and Irish go? Do they have aging populations? Have German and Irish Americans been discovering through some genealogy work that they're not actually German or Irish? Are they in the American category as well? These are all possible explanations to explain the massive drops in numbers of German, Irish, and English Americans, but there is no conclusive evidence that we can cite that wouldn't be venturing outside the territory of encyclopedia editing and into the practice of POV pushing.

The edits on these ethnic pages that are artificially boosting the count of English Americans need to be deleted. Editors should post the census figures and any changes that have occurred and then take a neutral position.Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Doubling the population of the entire country
The introduction states that German immigration more than doubled the population of the entire country between 1820 and 1870 by adding 7.5 million people. There are two problems with this; For one, it is not clear whether they mean that the population in 1870 would have been half of what it was without the Germans (which is what it implies), or, more plausibly (it seems, unless you assume extreme German birth rates), that 7.5 million people is more than double of the 1820 population. For another, the latter would not be true, since the population in 1820 was 9.6 million (in 1870, 38.5).

https://www.thoughtco.com/us-population-through-history-1435268

Either way, this extraordinary claim deserves a citation, but I am loathe to edit it since I fear making a mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.94.25.170 (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I have never seen such a claim in a RS so I deleted it. The Germans started arriving in numbers in the 1840s not the 1820s--there were 17m Americans in 1840. Rjensen (talk) 21:28, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The claim doesn't appear in reliable sources, that's true. But what is in reliable sources is that the US received more immigrants from Germany than from any other country, and that German ancestry is the single largest bloc in the US. Anyone claiming that any other group has a larger presence than German Americans has a serious uphill fight ahead of them.Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Palatines
The section on the Palatines is woefully under-developed. For starters, poverty was a symptom - the disease was the French army ravaging the Palatinate. Queen Anne only "helped them get to her colonies in America" after attempts to assimilate them failed, and after other relocation efforts were not widely successful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raschau (talk • contribs) 18:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)