Talk:Giacomo Meyerbeer/Archive 1

Composer of the Month for May 2006
Meyerbeer is The composer of the month for May on the Opera Project.

We need articles on the following operas: Il crociato in Egitto, L'étoile du nord, Ein Feldlager in Schlesien, Margherita d’Anjou, Le prophète

While the following could benefit from more attention: L'Africaine, Les Huguenots, Robert le diable.

Kleinzach 09:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Have produced something for Il crociato in Egitto, q.v.--Smerus 12:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a weak B; it's content is fairly basic, and there are structure and format issues. The details are in my review on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 03:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

He was a French national, so how come he is German composer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.81.181 (talk) 08:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the article--Smerus (talk) 08:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Infobox
Don't you guys think that an infobox would be great for this article?--Mishae (talk) 05:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It would not. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The consensus over a long period has been against infoboxes for composers on English WP. --Smerus (talk) 07:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Mishae, you tried this on over at Talk:Georges Bizet (and maybe other places for all I know). You were told there what the state of play is.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  08:32, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Composition Listing
One thing this article needs is a good, referenced composition listing. While Meyerbeer wrote largely for the opera he also composed a large number of Art Songs and other works, which should be put into the context of his operatic career.Graham1973 (talk) 04:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * nb List of operas by Meyerbeer already exists. Perhaps the first priority should be to get the article as a whole up to scratch.--Smerus (talk) 08:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Made a first step by running down the Stanford quote. The text preceding the portion I quoted contains some rather dubious claims about Meyerbeer, (1). Writing multiple versions of the same passage so he could make the final choice at rehersal. (2). Renting flats on consecutive floors to keep his work-in-progress secret. (3). Getting audience feedback on what music gathered the most applause. I've downloaded three other books by Stanford and am going to see if I can locate another such anecdotes.Graham1973 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The other anecdotes you mention are typical of the gossip spread about M. The first is just untrue - although he frequently rewrote passages (as did many other composers) which didn't 'come off' in rehearsal. The second is nonsense. The third is also untrue - there is no mention of this anywhere in his diaries, and indeed why should he get feedback? He could hear in the theatre as well as anyone else what went down well. Finally, even if all of these gobbets were true, they would have nothing to do with evaluation of his music or character. Every conscientious person wants to do a good job. The Stanford piece you do quote I should say was also suspect - I find no mention anywhere that M. composed at the piano, and I wonder if this was just assumed by Stanford? I think we should seek supporting evidence for this if it is to be left in. Best, --Smerus (talk) 06:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've read through enough of Stanfords writings to know that he was indeed a purveyor of somewhat dubious stories, including claims that Beethovens 7th & Dvořák 9th Symphonies used Irish themes!?! However, my search of those writings reveal that his view of Meyerbeer was somewhat like the roughly contemporous views held about Sullivan, namely a very talented composer, who sacrificed his art for commercial success, stating that the duet in Act 4 of Les Huguenots was the work of a composer "...creatively ... head and shoulders above Liszt."Graham1973 (talk) 11:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this. Stanford was an engaging fellow and I think a good composer -the WP article on him is excellent btw - but perhaps an unreliable raconteur?--Smerus (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem, you might be interested to know that Project Gutenberg has uploaded a late 19th/early 20th C book on the history of opera. . Meyerbeer is mentioned and again Act 4 of Les Huguenots comes up for special mention.Graham1973 (talk) 13:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 16:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Wagner & the death of Meyerbeer
The article tells us about the reaction of Wagner on the death of Meyerbeer. The sentence goes: Wagner's autobiography 'Mein Leben', circulated amongst his friends (and published openly in 1911), contains constant sniping at Meyerbeer and concludes with Wagner exulting over Meyerbeer's death. However, is Wagner really exulting over de death of Meyerbeer? The autobiography of Wagner (Mein Leben) reads as follows: "While we were at table Eckert was informed by telegram of Meyerbeer's death in Paris, and Weisheimer burst out in boorish laughter to think that the master of opera, who had done me so much harm, had by a strange coincidence not lived to see this day." Is this really exulting over the death of someone? Wagner merely wrote that someone in his company laughed about it and pointed out that Meyerbeer did him much harm. I took the liberty to change this. C.Gesualdo (talk) 15:33, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You are correct; although his companions seem gratified, Wagner leaves his own feelings to be inferred, rather than stating them explicitly.--Smerus (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Honour
User:Carolus has twice inserted into the article a new section headed "Honours" with the information that Meyerbeer received the Order of Leopold (Belgium). Meyerbeer received many decorations from European monarchs as a matter of politeness. The Order of Leopold had no effect on his career, and  was not significant in any way - the only connection I know of with Belgium is that he occasionally took holidays in Spa. I have therefore deleted Carolus's edit as WP:UNDUE and invite any discussion here.--Smerus (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Rediculous, if there are other honours they should be displayed.--Carolus (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I do not see any harm in listing all of the honours Meyerbeer received in a section called "Honours", if anyone has access to that information. I would tend to agree that it is undue to include just that one particular honour.Smeat75 (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. The list shouldn't however duplicate text already in the article.Smerus (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

"Meyerbeer's works are only infrequently performed today"- has this changed?
operabase.com shows for the last season, 2015-2016, new productions of L'Africaine in Berlin,Le prophète in Karlsruhe and Les Huguenots in Nice. This season, 2016-2017, there are new productions of Le prophète in Essen and Toulouse, Les Huguenots in Kiel, Würzburg and Berlin, and even performances of L'étoile du Nord and Margherita d'Anjou. So is it still true to say his operas are "only infrequently performed today"? would it not be true to say that especially in Germany, they are being revived more and more often, with Huguenots in particular now almost a repertory piece? Just posting this here to get other opinions, I will not make any edits to the article right now.Smeat75 (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am inclined to agree. (There's a production of Les Huguenots coming up in Budapest as well!) When the article gained GA status only a few years ago the statement was true; but this does indeed seem to be changing. One consequence is the now long - indeed overlong - list of productions in the final paragraph, which could now expand even further. I think some rewording, noting this development, would be appropriate, together with a note into which notable revivals, including many of those already in the paragraph, can be exported - that would keep things proportionate.Smerus (talk) 05:25, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have made a stab at revising the relevant parts of the article along the lines you suggested Smerus, please feel free to revise and improve my alterations.Smeat75 (talk) 23:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for this, looks fine for the present!Smerus (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Returning from the Franfurt Opera: they announce L'Africaine for the next season. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Giacomo Meyerbeer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060512134147/http://www.meyerbeer.com/ to http://www.meyerbeer.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140714200135/http://www.theater-chemnitz.de/sparten/oper/oper_retrospektive/retro_oper_1213/vasco_de_gama.html to http://www.theater-chemnitz.de/sparten/oper/oper_retrospektive/retro_oper_1213/vasco_de_gama.html
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20140615152605/http://www.kulturradio.de/rezensionen/cd/2014/giacomo-meyerbeer-vasco-da-gama.html to http://www.kulturradio.de/rezensionen/cd/2014/giacomo-meyerbeer-vasco-da-gama.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060512134147/http://www.meyerbeer.com/ to http://www.meyerbeer.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120810001016/http://www.meyerbeer.com/Brzoska_040914_Prophete.htm to http://www.meyerbeer.com/Brzoska_040914_Prophete.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060512134147/http://www.meyerbeer.com/ to http://www.meyerbeer.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060512134147/http://www.meyerbeer.com/ to http://www.meyerbeer.com/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 18:03, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Giacomo Meyerbeer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.meyerbeer.com/bochum.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120716223947/http://www.meyerbeer.com/robert.htm to http://www.meyerbeer.com./robert.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051216102000/http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/meyerbeer_.htm to http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/meyerbeer_.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Poster image?
The image captioned as a "poster" for "Le pardon de Ploermel" looks a lot more like a cover for a score to me.

Can the author review and correct that please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithmur (talk • contribs) 14:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Source says it's a poster.--Smerus (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Wagner's correspondence with Mayerbeer
This article describes Wagner's correspondence to Mayerbeer as "cringingly obsequious." According to whom is it cringingly obsequious? If this is a direct quote from the cited source, it should be in quotation marks, otherwise, the adverb "cringingly" should be removed, I think. Matuko (talk) 12:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Quite right, although the citation was in fact given, now clarified. Thanks, --Smerus (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Misleading line?
I find this line misleading: who has been described as perhaps the most successful stage composer of the nineteenth century. While I recognize that it is phrased so as he has "been described" (by a reliable source), its misleading because Meyerbeer was only really active in the first half of the 19th century, and claiming he was the most successful in a century with both Verdi and Wagner doesn't really make sense. I would suggest this be changed to something along the lines of "perhaps the most successful stage composer of the first half of the nineteenth century." (or "early nineteenth century," "mid nineteenth century," etc.) -- Aza24 (talk) 20:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's right, it is referenced to a reliable source.
 * It says "perhaps".
 * It is obviously not trying to say that Meyerbeer's operas were more successful in an artistic sense than Verdi's or Wagner's, such a value judgement would have no place in a reliable source or an encyclopedia, but that Meyerbeer's operas were perhaps the most successful throughout the 19th century in terms of the number of performances, the box office receipts they took, the acclaim from critics and appreciation of audiences, etc.
 * So no, I don't think the line is misleading.Smeat75 (talk) 21:23, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If we're speaking purely on a business sense rather than an artistic sense, that makes sense. Maybe this should be more reflected in that line. I proposed a suggested change because when I first read it I wasn't really sure how one could describe him as such since there are so many successful composers throughout the 19th century (and Wagner and Verdi can both seemingly be described as "perhaps the most successful stage composer of the nineteenth century"). That being said I think others who don't know about Meyerbeer might be confused, thoughts? Aza24 (talk) 02:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Smeat75 has it right. And I don't at all accept Aza24's characterizations of Wagner and Verdi, at least as far as the 19th century is concerned. Wagner was not at all successful in opera houses in the 19th century until the 1890s (and of course thereafter). Verdi similarly was not accepted as amongst the greats until the last quarter of the century. Whereas Meyerbeer was a box-office smash at least from 'Il crociato' (1824) until World War I. We should not read back our own artistic preferences to previous eras. Those "who don't know about Meyerbeer" can come here and learn. --Smerus (talk) 09:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)


 * BUT whilst I don't find the wording misleading (as the source is [cough] in fact myself under another guise) I have found something which is clearer and independent, and am replacing the phrase accordingly.--Smerus (talk) 19:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Lol, I wasn't trying to "read back my own artistic preferences to previous eras", I just wasn't aware of their main success being, as you said, at the near end of the 19th century, or not 19th century at all. (So thank you for letting me know!) The line is definitely clearer now and the addition about "linking Mozart and Wagner" makes it even better! Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)