Talk:Gottschee

Merge
This article is not so much about Gottschee "County" as about the Gottscheers. It should be merged with Gottscheers - they contain the same material. Hohenloh+ 01:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. The 'Gottschee County' also seems unclear and poorly supported by sources. For example, the essential information about when was this area a "county" is missing. I known it was a county of the Drava Banovina, but was it also before? I mean, the article can remain if it is refocused to appropriately describe the administrative aspect of the area. --Eleassar my talk 10:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree with merger, but I agree that the article is currently problematic. I think this geography article (or what should be a geography article) needs to be expanded and balanced rather than merged with the ethnological article (Gottscheers). There are plenty of published sources on Gottschee County available in German. The article as it currently stands has at least two major problems: 1) almost all of it is about the Second World War, ignoring about 600 years of history, and 2) it focuses almost exclusively on political events (these are also shortcomings of the Gottscheers article). This article ought to include the early history of the region, its geography and geology, and of course the post–Second World War history of the territory. Doremo (talk) 15:09, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think this article should be merged into Gottscheers (which btw has been unreferenced so far, but there are articles in German and Slovene where literature can be found) and not the other way around. There has been nothing in this article on Gottschee County, it is mainly about the German-speaking people of the region. If you want an article on Gottschee County you should start a new one after merging it into Gottscheers. -- PhJ (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I see that there is no article in the German-language Wikipedia that corresponds to this one, nor with the title of Gottschee County or similar. There is what appears to be a well-researched article at de:Gottscheer (I haven't had time to read it in its entirety yet). As expected it is about the "former German-speaking population of the Gottscheer state (Kočevska) in the Duchy of Carniola" (my translation). It refers to the Sprachinsel (language island) in the region, of which the city Gottschee (present-day Kočevje) was the centre. Sections include the history of the Gottscheers from 1247 to today, destruction of their heritage, current situation, Gottshceers abroad, literature and references from German and Slovene sources. Unfortunately (IMO) the inter-Wiki language link points to Gottschee County rather than Gottscheer (which BTW is a very poor article, and Kočevje also needs a lot of work).


 * I agree with Eleassar and PhJ that the contents of this article should be merged into Gottscheers - if the German-language Wikipedia does not consider so-called "Gottscheer County" notable enough for an article (nor does any other language!), why should the English-language Wikipedia blaze a trail into what might even be considered WP:OR? Gottscheers should then be expanded in line with the German-language article plus English-language references where necessary. Kočevje should be expanded to include the Gottscheer history. Duchy of Carniola should be expanded where necessary with Gottscheer content. I would be more than happy to contribute to this reconstruction and I am a former translator of German. Hohenloh+ 09:49, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * OK with me, as long as the geographical aspects get covered somewhere and the historical coverage is expanded from 1941–1945. Doremo (talk) 10:39, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I feel it does have enough of a regional identity to merit a separate article. The territory became a duchy in 1791, it is depicted as a distinct territory in various maps (e.g., Kozler's 1848 Zemljevid Slovenske dežele, Postl's 1864 Plan des Bezirkes Gottschee), it was subdivided into districts for administrative, ecclesiastical, and census purposes, and it had strictly defined geographical boundaries. It's no less real than any other administrative territory was. (Also, given that English WP is larger than other WPs, it's not particularly remarkable that a parallel article doesn't exist elsewhere.) Doremo (talk) 10:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I've made a first attempt at expanding the history and eliminating some of the overlap with the Gottscheer article. There are additional historical maps that would be useful, but it may take a bit of hunting around to find the images. There is also a lot more historical detailn that should be added, plus ecclesiastical divisions, local communities within the 19th-century district, and so on. I also haven't covered the physical geography, which should probably be placed before the historical overview. Doremo (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Suggested renaming: "Gottschee County" → "Gottschee"
I'm preparing some material for a chronologically more balanced overview of the history of this area, but it will take a while before it's ready to add. In the meantime, the title Gottschee County (= Grafschaft Gottschee, Kočevska grofija) is problematic because, strictly speaking, it only applies to the period 1623–1791. It's too specific. Various names were used for this territory, which had a separate administrative identity (as a dominion, county, duchy, district, and municipality) since the 13th century. Some Google Books frequencies for comparison: "District of Gottschee" (16), "Gottschee District" (11), "Gottschee County" (7), "Duchy of Gottschee" (3), "County of Gottschee" (2), "Dukedom of Gottschee" (1), "Dominion of Gottschee" (1); "Kočevje District" (14), "District of Kočevje" (6), "Kočevje County" (1), "County of Kočevje" (1), "Dukedom of Kočevje" (1).

However, the most frequent general name in published sources used to refer to the entire territory (not just the town of Kočevje) is simply "Gottschee": for example, book titles Wörterbuch der Mundart von Gottschee, Memories of Gottschee, Die Deutsche Sprachinsel Gottschee, Gottschee and Its People through the Centuries, etc., and text: "dialect of Bavarian that was flourishing in Gottschee", "ethnic Germans in Gottschee", "In Gottschee, the (consonant) strengthening", etc., all referring to the entire territory.

The easiest solution would be to simply title the article "Gottschee" (with a hatnote for the identical German name for the town of Kočevje) and to refer to the territory generically as the "Gottschee region" or the "Gottschee area" in the article when not specifically discussing the dominion, county, duchy, district, or municipality. (See Carniola for a similar approach that avoids march/duchy/crownland in the title) Doremo (talk) 09:27, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a good idea. I support the move, because the word 'County' indeed does not apply to all of the history of the region. --Eleassar my talk 11:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, agree. I too have found Gottschee County inadequate. Hohenloh+ 15:59, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There seems to be consensus; Eleassar, can you make the suggested page move? (It's currently blocked by the Gottschee redirect page.) Doremo (talk) 11:45, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Y Done. --Eleassar my talk 12:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I'll try to get the historical/geographical information added soon and also move the ethnic/cultural information to the Gottscheers article, as suggested. Doremo (talk) 13:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

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Which villages are in scope?
I added the village of Winkel (Kot) to the table of villages on July 27; the change was subsequently reverted by another user. Winkel appears on the map "Die deutsche Sprachinsel Gottschee in Krain im Jahre 1878" as a mixed German-Slovenian area adjacent to Semitsch in the east. Other mixed German-Slovenian areas on this map are included in the table as villages (e.g., Maierle; Neuwinkel in Suchen; Alben and Altwinkel in Obergras) or as municipalities (e.g., Unterlag), so I am not sure why Winkel (Kot) should be excluded. What are the criteria for including Gottschee villages? RomeoJA (talk) 06:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * There were many mixed German-Slovenian areas in Slovenia in the 19th century, extending far beyond the Gottschee area. A good criterion is the villages listed under Gottschee in the 1906 Leksikon občin kraljestev in dežel zastopanih v državnem zboru (Winkel/Kot is listed as part of Tschernembl/Črnomelj, not Gottschee, in that work). Good maps are also available in Ferenc's Nekdanji nemški jezikovni otok na kočevskem (2007) and Izgubljene kočevske vasi (2011–2013), showing which villages were part of the Gottschee administrative area. Doremo (talk) 12:56, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have checked all of the names, and I have removed Ajbelj, Novi Kot, Podplanina, Spodnja Bilpa, and Stari Kot, and have added Doblička Gora, Mirna Gora, and Stražnji Vrh, all based on the maps in Ferenc's publications. Doremo (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

It is well recognized that the boundaries of the ethnic German enclave called Gottschee is broader than boundaries of the judicial district (Gerichtsbezirk) Gottschee. Lexicons and gazeteers can provide names of individual villages within different adminstrative districts, but they do not help us to answer, what should we consider as part of Gottschee (in the broader sense). I propose that we use the villages included within the boundaries described by Carl Freiherrn v. Czoernig in the 1878 article Die deutsche Sprachinsel Gottschee and that we add the article as a source for the statement in the article that "This table includes villages in the 19th-century Gottschee District plus adjacent villages with a Gottschee German population." The article makes explicit reference to the 1869 population census of Krain, which can likewise be used to determine specific villages within the boundaries of Gottschee as described in the article (see Orts-Repertorium des Herzogthums Krain). RomeoJA (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That's another possibility, if there's a good reason to reject Ferenc's maps. Doremo (talk) 03:08, 11 August 2019 (UTC)