Talk:Grace VanderWaal/Archive 1

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because this is a redirect, that was suggested at the AfD. There used to be a regular article, not a redirect. I don't think anyone opposes a redirect to the competition she's WP:BLP1E for? It just wasn't thought of at first. I mean there was handidly more than enough sources covering her, but the problem was especially found to be WP:BLP1E. Mr. Magoo (talk) 07:32, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


 * We're not in any hurry. For example, if she wins tonight, condition #3 of BLP1E dies, and we likely have an article. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  20:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... she is now "Notable" as the winner of Season 11 of "America's Got Talent" --98.217.202.171 (talk) 02:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... she won. --108.20.205.6 (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Accessdates
Accessdates are only useful and helpful when the link is accessed long after its publication date. If an article is published today, you don't need an accessdate unless you access it next year. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:42, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * , I'm going by the template instuctions: accessdates "should be used for links to news articles on commercial websites (these can change from time to time, even if they are also published in a physical medium)." You are the one who is edit-warring; I am the one who is following instructions. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  19:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, the templates are a crutch for editors to use as a checklist. They are not required by WP:CITE.  But since you have insisted on the use of template cites in this article, I'm not going to waste my time fighting them.  Nevertheless, don't be a robot:  accessdates are only useful and helpful when the link is accessed long after its publication date.  If the date you are citing the article is shortly after publication, accessdates have no purpose and are simply redundant.  Also, your failure to come to the Talk page the first time you were requested to do so per WP:BRD and your reversion, again, of my removal of the redundancies was most certainly edit warring.  Note: template instructions are not Wikipedia guidellines (even if you had correctly interpreted them).  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Let me be clear: you are attempting to enforce your personal opinion of a parameter's usefulness in a living encyclopedia—in which cited sources can change at any moment—in direct contravention of that parameter's stated purpose within the templates' instructions. This is not a content dispute and, therefore, not an edit war—at least, not on my part. My interpretation is correct; accessdates are recommended and are not redundant in the slightest, and if you don't restore them, I will. The end. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  19:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * is absolutely correct. Access dates are quite important. His explanation is spot on. John from Idegon (talk) 21:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Meantime, I apologize for my tone. Certain characterizations can get my dander up ... — ATS  &#128406;  Talk  22:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Birthplace
She was born in Lenexa, as the Kansas City Star already says, if you would read it more carefully (it states at the beginning of the article that she is a "Lenexa native"). Here is an additional source that confirms this fact:. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Lenexa native Grace VanderWaal..." does not mean "born in Lenexa". The KC Star specifically says VanderWaal "was born in the Kansas City area ... to David and Tina VanderWaal, who lived in Lenexa." The Hollywood Life bio does not include a byline or anything else that demonstrates it's been properly vetted. Unless can produce something better, this must be reverted per BLP, OR and specificaly SYNTH. — ATS  &#128406;  Talk  22:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Lenexa native" most certainly does mean that she was born in Lenexa. The city of Lenexa says so too: . Also Hollywoodlife.com is a perfectly good and well-respected entertainment source with a well-respected editor, Bonnie Fuller. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That is not what the tweet says, . To use myself as an example, I was born in one Orange County, California, city, then taken home to the next city north by my parents. I am a "native" of the latter who was born in the former. Your edit violates SYNTH until and unless you can find a WP:RS (and a Hollywood Life bio is not, in this case—Fuller and her staff use bylines for news stories) that says "born in Lenexa" because it's required by our policies to overrule the KC Star piece. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  22:39, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Meantime, a Google search for "grace vanderwaal" and "born in lenexa" turns up the same two results it did a few days ago: a separate KC Star story that links to Vanderwaal's, and the not-demonstrably-vetted HL bio. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  22:48, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion on this subject somewhere about 4 years ago although I don't recall where. I contributed to it if you want to look through my contributions. Legal place of birth is rather useless information for an encyclopedia.  I would not have a problem with listing the town she came home from the hospital to as her birthplace. I was born in Gary Indiana but the only time I ever slept there was the three days I was in the hospital at my birth. Unless I'm filling out a legal document that must match my birth certificate, I list the city I came home to as my birthplace. As soon as you link KC as her birthplace, she's gonna get put in a notable list for there. If I were to be notable I'd object highly to being added to the notable list for Gary. - John from Idegon (talk) 23:59, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for chiming in, . I would have no problem with removing altogether the  parameter from the IB, but we cannot (stating the obvious) violate the very cornerstone of an encyclopedia within the text. Also (again stating the obvious), as a living encyclopedia we can replace the now-most reliable data with anything more reliable if/when it occurs. — ATS  &#128406;  Talk  00:12, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Family dogs
Per policy and this essay, I've deleted this sentence. Please discuss here before considering restoration. — ATS &#128406;  Talk  23:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

SOAP problems
I think the external link dispute is part a larger problem, NOT violations, mostly SOAP. (diffs to follow) --Ronz (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This is simply verifying a key fact of the biography. If there is a source that demonstrates that indeed these songs are a key fact of her biography, then we should include it. Neither source demonstrates this though. The first was simply her YouTube channel, the second is a puff piece from before her AGT win. --Ronz (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally, I wonder if you did not throw out the baby with the SOAPwater, . That she uploads covers, in addition to originals, seems biographical and that fact, if otherwise unembellished, should stay, IMO. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:03, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't look for other sources, only at what was offered. Looks like we have some others to review below. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

VanderWaal sings cover versions of songs, in addition to her original songs, in live performances and has also uploaded many of them to her YouTube channel. It is hard to understand why we would omit this important fact from the article. Articles that mention various covers sung by WanderWaal include this, this (listing her "top 5" covers on YouTube, this, this (re: a live performance), this (also re: a live performance), this, this, this, this ("Imagine"), this ("All About that Bass"), this (same), just to name a few. Will someone else please restore the information with whichever ref(s) you think we should use to verify this information? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Could you please review your list, and either reduce it to sources that verify the proposed content in its entirety, or at least note the ones that do not so we can figure out why you might be listing them (eg fuse.tv) --Ronz (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Consistent with short EL section

Note that in both cases, the burden rests on the editors wishing to restore the material (WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE and WP:ELBURDEN).

Given VanderWaal only very recent prominence, there's not much written about her, so it's easy to get carried away with the pr around her AGT appearance and win. BLP is an extremely strong policy that needs to be kept in mind at all times. And while EL is only a guideline, it's enforced extremely strongly because of how it relates to SOAP problems. --Ronz (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Which songs she has covered is irrelevant, I agree, unless a purpose for their existence is inarguable. That said, I've restored the portion that I believe to be relevant and biographical, with the strongest source I've found therefor. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:21, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, although certainly Hall of Fame magazine is no stronger than, say, Teen Vogue or the other news sources listed above. Indeed, Hall of Fame seems to rely, for this information, on the Design & Trend article that I cited! I think that Ronz misunderstands the purpose of the BLP rules:  they are to protect living persons from libel, not to exclude important facts about their biographies or to prevent readers from accessing the most interesting information about them. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * @ATS: That works. Thanks!
 * I reviewed all the potential sources offered, and didn't find any that support something stronger or more detailed. She's a newly discovered musician, with a (rather disorganized) pr campaign behind her. Given her talent, I expect there will be much more to draw upon in the future.
 * misunderstands the purpose of the BLP rules You keep focusing on other editors. Please stop. --Ronz (talk) 19:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * the D&T article is used by HoFMag only to cite the Instagram following; there's nothing within the D&T relative to cover versions of songs. I used HoF because I personally found it least impeachable.
 * I will not speak to anyone's understanding of anything, but I would ask if you're applying SOAP correctly. My read of #4 shows it inapplicable, while #5—if applied against "she covered this song, and this song, and this song"—is iffy. Its purpose is to avoid self-promotion, and this certainly is not Miss VanderWaal promoting herself. Still, I believe "The channel also includes her cover versions ..." to be sufficiently expository.
 * — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:51, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This is the D&T article I cited, and I think it is clear that the HoF magazine article's listing of the cover versions is based on it. I have no problem with HoF, but why would you think that it is a stronger ref than blue-linked magazines cited above, or a real newspaper like The Journal News. I am simply pointing out that there are plenty of WP:Reliable sources, including the one I cited (and the one that you previously had cited!) and there was no justification for the deletion of the information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:02, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I cited the one I thought best served the purpose—"cover versions", plural—and I was going off your list above and didn't see TJN. If someone chose a "better" one for that purpose, I certainly would have no argument. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:12, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The purpose of SOAP is that Wikipedia not become a venue for promotion. BLP clearly states that articles like this should not have overly promotional tone or content. --Ronz (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

YouTube channel
I think it is essential to include a link to VanderWaal's YouTube channel, since what interests people most about VanderWaal is her performances. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:21, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I would note that her new official site is, at the moment, nothing but links to her socials. True, it's one extra click, but you can't miss it. — ATS &#128406;  talk  07:00, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have reinserted the link which is not redundant because VanderWaal's performances to date are mostly included on her YouTube channel, not on her official website, and that her YouTube videos and the America's Got Talent videos are the most interesting links about VanderWaal Jack1956 (talk) 10:30, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Her official site links to it, so it doesn't belong per the discussion above, WP:ELMINOFFICIAL, and WP:ELNO#1. Again, this need to emphasize her videos is SOAP. --Ronz (talk) 16:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that WP:ELBURDEN, mentioned above, applies here. --Ronz (talk) 16:44, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The External link to the YouTube channel is extremely helpful to any reader interested in this article, and therefore its insertion meets the requirements of WP:EL and WP:ELBURDEN. Somambulant1 (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is anything promotional about this article or the inclusion of the link. The most important FACTs about VanderWaal, so far, are that she won AGT and that her YouTube videos are very popular.  It would be misleading to fail to include the link in her article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that the link to Grace's YouTube channel should stay. Most visitors to her page here will want a direct link to her own videos. UWS Guy (talk) 00:31, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but can someone actually address the guidelines and policies directly? At this point, it's not clear if anyone has even read any of them.
 * ELMINOFFICIAL has an example almost exactly like this situation: More than one official link should be provided only when the additional links provide the reader with significant unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites. For example, if the main page of the official website for an author contains a link to the author's blog and Twitter feed, then it is not appropriate to provide links to all three. Instead, provide only the main page of the official website in this situation.
 * As I've pointed out, VanderWaal's web presence is disorganized. If her YouTube site linked to her main site, then it might be better short term. Last I checked, it didn't, and only her main site links to all the others. --Ronz (talk) 16:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the inclusion of an external link to Grace's YouTube channel is a rare example addressed by WP:IAR "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." I am restoring the page to the previous edit and I respectfully ask the editor who has reverted three times to please stop edit warring. Somambulant1 (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but you've not provided a reason, just an assertion. I respectfully ask that you revert yourself per ELBURDEN, and make a case for inclusion. Given the quote above from ELMINOFFICIAL that describes this specific situation well, it would be a very good idea to identify how it might not apply in this case. --Ronz (talk) 19:21, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

I've limited my involvement for the past couple of days so that I may weigh the arguments and apply them to my own thinking. I agree with that this is an IAR issue: does its presence help the reader? I believe it does. That said, one man's opinion: — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:25, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Official site – obvious yes
 * YouTube channel – yes (YouTubers, in particular, may escape ELMINOFFICIAL with their visual depictions of artistic pursuits, as opposed to blog entries and tweets)
 * AGT audition – good to have, but doesn't add anything
 * "12 Stars" performance – adds nothing and may be an NFCC issue anyway; should go
 * Invoking IAR without explaining how isn't helpful. The only "help" is removing a single click, which is directly addressed by ELMINOFFICIAL. Is there some other type of "help"?
 * I believe the direct link helps the reader given that her channel and videos are mentioned. It serves as a "further reading" of sorts.
 * So you are proposing just the official site and her YouTube channel? --Ronz (talk) 19:50, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:54, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The AGT audition, with 43 million views, which embodies the performance that launched VanderWaal's career, is essential to the article. I would agree to compromise on removing the 12 Stars performance (even though I think it is a very good example of VanderWaal's post-AGT career so far and is definitely not an NFCC issue), leaving in (1) the YouTube channel, (2) the website and (3) the AGT audition. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:18, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The audition vid is not unhelpful, but it's not essential, either. Trying to approach this from a potential GAN, and given that this is licensed content despite being freely available, the question must be posed: does it offer the reader something they cannot get via the prose alone? My belief—and, again, one man's opinion—is that it does not. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I should mention that I would have no argument with the compromise. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:26, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have brought dozens of articles to FA and GA over the past 10+ years on Wikipedia, have read and commented at numerous other FACs and GANs, and I have created several hundreds of articles. This restrictive view of ELs is, in my view, not consistent with the spirit of those rules and is not the way they are viewed by the best editors on Wikipedia, including those who work on WP:Featured Articles.  I am pinging User:Ian Rose, who knows as much about WP:FA as anyone.  Ian, can you comment here, please? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:30, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I would invite and  as well. I, among others I'm sure, would be happy to get the necessary clarity. — ATS  &#128406;  talk  20:36, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have brought dozens of articles Seems like you are taking this all very personally, while not addressing the concerns here. If there's any wider consensus for any of your assertions here, you aren't offering any.
 * I did look through GA singer articles, and couldn't find a single one with a YouTube link in the External links section. If there are any at all, they're exceptional if not in need of removal. --Ronz (talk) 20:41, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Contesting a video link with WP:NFCC seems rather flimsy; text is seldom a substitute for video content especially when you want to avoid excessive detail. Now, assuming that the videos are complying with third-party copyrights, what kind of material would the videos contribute? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:43, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't think offhand of what guidelines support this, but I hope we can agree that samples of an artists work should be included in their articles, if not available in related articles. Wikipedia tends not to include sound or video content directly, so there is a real need for external links in this case. Anyone disagree? --Ronz (talk) 20:51, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

The energy going into this is ridiculous. WP:EL is a guideline and this is an article on an undeveloped new artist so the normal procedures of removing puffery do not apply. Save the standard arguments for SPAs who are abusing Wikipedia, but this article does not need it. Johnuniq (talk) 22:33, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it best to follow our policies and guidelines, especially in a BLP where we are required to do so. --Ronz (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I have tremendous respect for every editor who volunteers his/her time to make this encyclopedia better, and you are one of them, —but this argument is preposterous on numerous levels.
 * The energy going into this is ridiculous.
 * True only if it is monopolizing that energy. Without supporting evidence, this is a leap in logic.
 * WP:EL is a guideline
 * ... based on WP:NOT and years of discussion and consensus.
 * this is an article on an undeveloped new artist
 * ... which does not mean we stop working together to make the best article we can.
 * so the normal procedures of removing puffery do not apply
 * They always apply.
 * Save the standard arguments ... this article does not need it
 * They all need it, or we fail the encyclopedia.
 * — ATS &#128406;  talk  22:49, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That is so impressive! However, I would suggest reading about guidelines and deciding if they must be followed, or whether occasional exceptions apply. Plonking cookie-cutter responses on talk pages is an indication of an inability to engage with issues and understand that going in hard is not always helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry you feel that way, but you literally could not be more wrong. — ATS &#128406;  talk  23:30, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Pinged by Sslivers. I'm not sure why there's still an argument here. A compromise seems to have been proposed to lose the 12 Stars video, which I tend to agree with given its amateurish quality, and keep the official site, the YouTube Channel and the AGT, all of which seem fine to me. I suggest just do it, and move on to other things. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I am in agreement with the suggestion by Ian Rose. Somambulant1 (talk) 00:07, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * . — ATS  &#128406;  talk  00:33, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * As am I. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Johnuniq (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

REPEATLINK, citation format - Concerns about AGF, especially in edit summaries
ATS, you accused me in an edit summary just now of failing to assume good faith. I think you *are* editing in good faith, but that you are stubborn and a mediocre editor. You have violated the letter and spirit of WP:OWN. I have done nearly all the research for this article. Nearly every footnote is to an article that I found and added. You have merely reformatted the article to suit your taste and insisted that the text and ref formatting must be done your way. That is classic WP:OWNership. I believe that you apply the rules mechanically, rather than in a way that helps readers and editors. You cherry pick language from rules and then apply it absolutely. For example, WP:REPEATLINK says that generally it is not helpful to repeat links, but that footnotes are among the things that *may* be linked (in addition to a link in the text) "if helpful for readers". It doesn't say that one *ought to* link them in the footnotes over and over again. In this case, you have linked Billboard magazine repeatedly in the footnotes, but it is distracting and unhelpful after the first time. Why is that so? WP:OLINK explains that "an excessive number of links" makes it "difficult to identify links likely to aid the reader's understanding significantly." That is, if you look at a footnote where you have linked to the magazine, that link is not the important link in the footnote: the important link is to the source itself, so linking to the WP article about the publisher is distracting and not helpful. Similarly, as I noted before, you clutter up the footnotes with redundant dates, justifying this by reference, mechanically, to a template discussion! Obviously, you don't want to learn anything from me, but the best place to learn about balanced and nuanced editing is at FAC, where the best editors work on the highest quality articles. According to your user page, you have never been responsible for improving an article to the WP:Featured Article level. I strongly suggest that you read some FACs, and see how people deal with the letter *and spirit* of the guidelines there in order to write superior articles. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:19, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * How about we all WP:FOC?
 * As for the links, I am not clear on the value repeating them. --Ronz (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "I think you *are* editing in good faith, but that you are stubborn and a mediocre editor." Says it all, I think.
 * Your entire argument builds upon one thing, : that —the standard, and used almost exclusively in our best articles—is somehow inferior to manually replicating it. That I have no featured articles—yet—is a phony comparison you've manufactured specifically to debase my contributions. Or inflate your own. Or both. I reject this in toto, and correctly so.
 * has pointed out above that we should all focus on content. This is, is precisely, and is only, what I am doing. Simply put, if you leave a mess on an article on my watchlist, I am compelled to clean it up—and that is the limit of what you so stubbornly call OWNership.
 * — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:51, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no rule that a particular template must or must not be used, and lots of good articles use one style, while others do it differently. Please speak to the substance of an issue and use matter-of-fact edit summaries that avoid inflaming issues. Johnuniq (talk) 21:52, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Please speak to the substance of an issue and use matter-of-fact edit summaries that avoid inflaming issues. I assume you intend to rebuke . — ATS  &#128406;  talk  22:04, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Please drop the emoticons. If the intention is to reduce tension, it would be better to not comment at all. Johnuniq (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That it's delivered somewhat tongue-in-cheek does not affect the legitimacy of the sentiment. — ATS &#128406;  talk  22:18, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I am happy to focus on content if you will avoid snarky edit summaries. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Negation: "If you use snarky edit summaries, I will violate Wikipedia policy."
 * Since I'm too mediocre to give a flying fuck, my explicit focus after this will be on content because I know my place in its creation. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:49, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

MSG halftime performance
ATS, you have deleted the cite that gives the date of the performance, November 6. Sometimes you need more than one source to verify all the necessary facts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. — ATS &#128406;  talk  00:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Civility -- attacks in Edit summaries.
ATS, I was just trying to be polite. I thought you had begun to try to put our disputes behind you, but you continue to attack me in the edit summaries. I think that the article would be better off if you did not do so. Ssilvers (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I will consider politeness if and only if you admit your actions as outlined in my previous edit summary were wrong and reductive, and apologize for them. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:54, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I apologize if I hurt your feelings, and I will try to be polite and kind to you in the future, whether or not you extend the same courtesy to me. I believe that you are editing in good faith, even though I disagree with some of your actions and statements in connection with this article. Your edit summary unfortunately misunderstands my comments above. I guess we'll have to disagree on some things, but that should not stop us from editing together effectively on this article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * You did not "hurt [my] feelings", you belittled my abilities and contributions. Nevertheless, I accept, and I will offer in return the same courtesy offered me. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Citation format
Since I have done the bulk of the research for this article, I think we should use manual citation formatting, which I prefer for its simplicity and flexibility, instead of the cite templates that ATS prefers. I am happy to do the conversions. What do others think? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * If—and only if—the consensus is to switch back, I will honor it. If consensus is to let stand future additions, I will honor it. However, to revert without consensus is actionable under WP:EW. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:02, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have re-read CITEVAR and I no longer object to any restoration of manual formatting. That said, also per CITEVAR, I must make known my objection to any omission of "Retrieved [date]" as this is a useful tool in our site-wide effort to prevent link rot. — ATS &#128406;  talk  22:06, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * If the retrieval date is the same as, or near in time to, the publication date, how do you think stating it could prevent link rot? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * It allows the reader/editor to confirm last access at a glance, because some changes over time are certain. The "wait, this hasn't been checked since ..." response helps you, me, and other editors maintain accuracy and, therefore, prevent link rot. — ATS &#128406;  talk  22:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The document could not have been checked *before* the publication date, so if the access date is the same as, or not long after the publication date, then the additional date would not appear to add any further information useful to help editors prevent link rot. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * You're missing the purpose by living in the present, which a living encyclopedia cannot do. Someone accessing the article, say, a year from now who sees publishing dates but no access dates has no idea how much time has passed since those references were checked for maintenance, never mind accuracy. Say a year from today I see that a source was published on 13 October 2016 and retrieved on 22 November 2017. I can see at a glance that the source is all but certainly valid. — ATS &#128406;  talk  23:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree that if there is a *recent* access date that is much later than the publication date, it can be helpful. But that does not address my objection. The only reason the redundant dates bother me is because they bloat the ref and makes the ref list slower going, and they also beg the question of why the editors would do such a thing as to add an access date identical to, or shortly after the publication date. So I think it degrades the quality of the article. I would certainly have no objection to anyone adding an access date when checking one of these refs next year. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

The only reason the redundant dates bother me is because they bloat the ref and makes the ref list slower going: it's been argued that the templates do that; this would be valid only in a very large article with hundreds of sources, otherwise "slower going" is negligible if existent.

they also beg the question of why the editors would do such a thing as to add an access date identical to, or shortly after the publication date: because a notice of the last date of access is a notice of the last date of access, regardless of when. Certainly, its presence may seem redundant if, say, it's seen only days after a source is published, but time passes quickly. I've seen sources die literally within a few days after I'd last checked them—which is particularly frustrating when, never mind in general furtherance of the encyclopedia.

This is an exceptionally useful tool that requires but a few words. — ATS &#128406;  talk  23:37, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * That does not explain how it's useful. If something was published on October 1, 2016, and the accessdate is October 5, 2016, and you look at the ref on November 2, 2017, then the accessdate, only four days after publication, does not give you any more information than the publication date.  The publication date is, in such a case, your "notice of the last date of access".  The access date does not add anything unless some time has passed so that the access date is significantly more recent than the publication date. [ADD: Note that WP:PLRT, which you cited above, identifies access dates as optional]. Well, we are repeating ourselves, and I doubt that I have persuaded you.  You certainly have not persuaded me, so unless other editors weigh in, we'll have to accept that there is no consensus on the matter. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:49, 24 November 2016 (UTC)


 * So it would seem. Be mindful, then, that I will add access dates as I deem necessary. (Edit re "optionally": "If the link goes bad, this added information can help a future Wikipedian, either editor or reader, locate a new source for the original text, either online or a print copy.") — ATS &#128406;  talk  00:53, 24 November 2016 (UTC)


 * You are misreading WP:PLRT. The "added information" that can help locate a new source means the following: "...avoid bare URLs by recording as much of the exact title, author, publisher and date of the source as possible. Optionally, also add the accessdate."  Of course, the title, author, publisher and publication date are the most essential information that might "help a future Wikipedian ... locate a new source." An accessdate should only be added optionally where it might help locate a new source, and obviously that would never happen when it is the same date as the publication date.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:41, 24 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't believe I am misreading anything, though my explanation is inadequate upon reread; still, that's really irrelevant at this point. When I believe it's useful—and same-as-publication-date access tells an editor that it's been that long since it's been checked, and maybe it's time to check it again, even if it's only been a few days, which has always been my point—I will add it. The end. — ATS &#128406;  talk  04:56, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Marching band; Rolling Stone interview
Grace has said in a recent Rolling Stone interview that the marching band is the *high school's* marching band (not middle school). I don't know how that worked, but she was very clear about it. The interview video is embedded in today's Rolling Stone article at 8:15. She also notes in that interview that her sister Olivia did the artwork for her album cover. How should we cite the embedded video? Also, should we mention Meghan Trainor in the musical influences list? She has mentioned her before. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

ELs again
She's getting her online presence in order, I see no reason for any exceptions to EL, let alone rationale for adding more. I've removed the new one. Please follow WP:ELBURDEN in the meantime. --Ronz (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking it over closely, the only thing that stands out for me is that her official website is still just a placeholder that links to all her social media sites. If we deem her personal YouTube channel, or one of her other official sites as a better location to find out what she says about herself, I think that single exception would meet the intent of ELOFFICIAL, though it still contradicts WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. --Ronz (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You do not have consensus. You are edit warring about trivia. Leave it alone and something constructive to do. There is no deadline and if the link was ok yesterday, there is no mandate that it must be removed today. Johnuniq (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Please WP:FOC. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * VanderWaal has apparently begun posting performances to her new VEVO channel, as well as her original YouTube channel. This might confuse people who are are trying to find her performances.  Perhaps, over time, she will choose just one for her performances, and then we can link to just one of them.  In the meantime, to help our readers find them easily, we should link to both.  Note, also, that there are a very small number of very helpful ELs on this article, so your continued resistance to helpful links is unwarranted. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:28, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * And we've already discussed this, and consensus is against adding more. We made a compromise that goes against general consensus to leave the YouTube site as the single exception. If you want to start over, let's start with one per general consensus. If you want to build on past consensus, acknowledge what's already been said to work in that direction, acknowledge that you'd like to change consensus, and try not dismiss everything that doesn't support your personal position on the matter. --Ronz (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I completely reject your premise. This is a new and important link. The only editor who wants to delete it is you.  Tagging the article, when other editors disagree with you is unconstructive and provocative, but you already knew that.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I support the addition of the VEVO channel link. This is where videos from the new album will be posted, thereby making the link helpful to readers. Somambulant1 (talk) 20:00, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Consensus has been rejected, and editors appear uninterested in following any policies or guidelines that do not support their preferred version. Will editors agree to follow our behavioral policies and guidelines for resolving this type of dispute? --Ronz (talk) 16:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Please find something useful to do other than busybody here. The problems that might exist in this article do not need your attention. That's how Wikipedia works. If the situation is as catastrophic as you appear to think, someone will fix it. Johnuniq (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The only person rejecting consensus is you, Ronz. Your behavior here has been disruptive, and your editing is unconstructive. There is no current dispute to resolve, so please stop trying to stir up trouble. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:54, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

So no response about the content? No response about the relevant policies and guidelines? No recognition of past consensus and how we got there? Then there's no consensus beyond personal opinions.

I believe we had consensus to create an exception from EL for the initial YouTube channel per Talk:Grace_VanderWaal. I even found some weak rationale to support it.

Here web presence is evolving. Her main website is now a promotion for her album, retaining all the links to her social media sites. Her initial, "personal", YouTube channel continues to act more as her main website than any other. The YouTube Vevo channel has all of one video not on her personal channel.

I don't see any reason to change from our last point of consensus. No one is arguing that the one unique video on the Vevo channel is important. She's clearly favoring her personal channel, so the Vevo channel should be removed per Perhaps, over time, she will choose just one for her performances, and then we can link to just one of them. --Ronz (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Ronz, it is *far* too early to reach any conclusion about this. We will not be able to determine this for many months.  Again, please stop trying to stir up trouble here.   You really seem hysterical about this article, with your multiple pointless edits today and last week.  Really, it would be much better for Wikipedia and everyone here if you unwatched this article and never came back. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * We can always change the external links in the future if something changes. --Ronz (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The statements that the "YouTube Vevo channel has all of one video not on her personal channel" and "one unique video on the Vevo channel" are not accurate. As of now, there are three VEVO videos, with a combined view count of 8 million, and none of the three is on her personal Youtube channel.  Also, the statement that "she's clearly favoring her personal channel" is not accurate.  In the past month, the same number of videos have been posted on each channel. I continue to support having here the links to both channels. Somambulant1 (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at the content.
 * I've been looking at all the sections of each YouTube channel, and from that perspective I believe my observations are correct:
 * The YouTube VEVO channel has a total of three videos: "Grace VanderWaal - I Don't Know My Name (Lyric)", "Grace VanderWaal - Perfectly Imperfect", and "Grace Vanderwaal - Clay (Live from The Tonight Show (Starring Jimmy Fallon))"
 * The main YouTube channel has 30 videos in the video subsection, the first of which is a 25 second video promoting the "Grace VanderWaal - I Don't Know My Name (Lyric)" video. It has comments in the discussion subsection. It has two lists in the playlists section (one with the first two videos from the VEVO channel). In the home subsection the same two videos are listed again.
 * That's why I said the VEVO channel has only one unique video.
 * The 32 videos, the playlists, and the discussion all show that the main YouTube channel is overwhelming favored. --Ronz (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The fact that links and playlists posted on the personal channel direct viewers to the VEVO channel does not support your conclusion that the personal channel is overwhelming favored. If anything, it indicates the opposite.  Videos uploaded to the personal channel, with the exception of the most recent one which promotes the VEVO channel, were posted prior to the launch of the VEVO channel, and the fact remains that the three videos uploaded to the VEVO channel (now with more than 8.5 million views) have not been uploaded to the personal channel. Somambulant1 (talk) 20:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Update: As of December 2, four additional videos, songs from the newly-released recording, have been uploaded to the VEVO channel, for a total of seven VEVO videos.  None of these has been uploaded to the personal channel.  A short preview video for the song "Clay" has been uploaded to the personal channel, directing viewers to watch the full video on the VEVO channel. Somambulant1 (talk) 18:37, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The videos are directly accessible from the main YouTube site. Which sites they are directly uploaded to is completely irrelevant, which is why I didn't mention it. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Quickly glancing at the website updates: I see five new videos on her main YouTube site, three on her Vevo site, two unique to her main. That's 34 unique to her main, one on her Vevo. --Ronz (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Ronz: "Quickly glancing at the website updates: I see five new videos on her main YouTube site, three on her Vevo site, two unique to her main." In an effort to understand your logic and your method of counting, I request that you please provide a list, by video name and upload date, the videos that you consider to be "new videos" on each of the two channels. Somambulant1 (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that the two most recent videos on the main channel are short teasers for the full-length videos on the VEVO channel. The VEVO channel has six new, unique videos. Note that the music videos on the VEVO channel are from the new EP recording, while the music videos on her main channel are live performances.  The songs on the EP have been re-orchestrated, so they are absolutely unique and different from the ones on the main site. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If editors want to follow my previous example and create a list of differences, maybe finding a clearer way of doing so, I think it would be very helpful.
 * We no longer talking about which site the videos are being hosted, but where they are accessible from, correct? --Ronz (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Having two Youtube sites is nothing worth noting
I cannot imaging how having two Youtube sites is nothing worth noting in an encyclopedia article about anyone. Please provide independent sources if you feel otherwise.

In the meantime, please respect BLP's requirement, "Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research." --Ronz (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I have rewritten the bit., every respect, I fail to see why you insist on removing the blurb as opposed to, say, being bold and rewriting it yourself. If someone kept doing this to something you'd written, you'd consider it disruptive, would you not? — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:18, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If someone kept doing this to something you'd written No. I don't own the content, and have no personal stake in it. I try to follow our policies and guidelines, and expect others to do the same while working cooperatively with other editors. BLP requires such content be removed. I didn't follow BLP at first, and tagged the content rather than removing it. After the problems were not addressed, I decided to simply follow BLP as is required.
 * I do not consider following BLP or our other policies and guidelines as being disruptive.
 * rewriting it yourself See WP:CHOICE. I don't think the content belongs. Neither do you judging by the rewrite, where you removed the most contentious part of it. --Ronz (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think the content belongs. Neither do you judging by the rewrite, where you removed the most contentious part of it. My point precisely—what was stopping you from the same action? The nuke-it-all, baby-with-the-bathwater approach was more evocative of IDONTLIKEIT than of BLP/OR. There is literally no reason what is there now should not be there; in fact, per LEAD, I would argue that some such summary must be there. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Please WP:FOC
 * WP:CHOICE says, "Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians".
 * BLP requires removal. Sorry you don't like it. --Ronz (talk) 00:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * FOC includes debate on merits of content.
 * CHOICE does not mean "I don't have to fix this when the 'undo' button is so much easier."
 * You need to go re-read WP:BLP. Desperately. — ATS &#128406;  talk  00:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * FOC, CHOICE, and BLP are all very clear. I've no idea what you might think supports interpretations that justify your comments here.
 * I don't have to fix this when the 'undo' button is so much easier. I've no idea who you think you're quoting. BLP says exactly how to address BLP problems. There's nothing to "fix".
 * You repeatedly tell me what I need to do, and your rationale as far as you've explained yourself involves ignoring FOC, CHOICE, and BLP. At this point, I don't see how this is anything beyond harassment. Please stop. --Ronz (talk) 17:04, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll be more than happy to leave you alone—if you'll stop pretending IDONTLIKE it is supported by FOC, CHOICE and BLP. End of conversation. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:20, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you are considering to stop harassing me. Please just do so without conditions. --Ronz (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Vevo link
The Vevo link that was excluded as an external link (Talk:Grace_VanderWaal), has been repeatedly inserted in the article body. This appears to be nothing other than blatant spam, an external link repeatedly being added for the purpose of promoting it's content. It's not a source for anything, so WP:REFSPAM seems to describe it accurately other than it's just this one article. Am I missing something? --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are missing everything, and you are wrong again. Your edits show that you don't know anything about this subject, including your confusion about the name of the EP, vs. the names of the songs. The official VEVO link is the correct and efficient choice to show, with *one* ref, that all of these lyrics videos for each of the songs exist.  It is asserting nothing more than their existence, and it is not promotional in the least.  It appears that either you don't understand what promotional means, or perhaps you are not a native English speaker, and are confused by Wikipedia's guidelines.  Ronz, your edits on this article since the beginning of your editing here have been unconstructive and are just a massive waste of other editors' time. For example, in this case, because of your objections to the Vevo link, an editor spent time to find and add individual references for each of the five lyrics videos.  Another editor disagreed with that approach and converted them into the hidden comment that we currently have under the VEVO ref, and which you unconstructively have made a mess of more than once, and caused the other editors of the article to spend more time agreeing on.  If you would stop interfering, having that long hidden comment would not be necessary at all, and we could simply rely on the perfectly acceptable and very efficient VEVO ref.  Your edits simply make it more difficult for everyone to work on this article and focus on content as we continue to expand it to follow this subject's fast-moving career. Instead, we spend all this time arguing with you about your misunderstanding of the guidelines and your repeated unconstructive edits.  Your edits, taken together, constitute vandalism.  For the good of the Wikipedia project, I again ask you to unwatch this article and stop editing here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * With regards to including a VEVO reference or link, I am unable to understand why there are continued repeated objections (and edits) by Ronz. Looking at a sampling of articles about pop musicians, I see that in many cases there is a reference or link to VEVO. Why has it been necessary to expend so much energy on this issue, with this article?  One editor seems insistent on repeatedly making it an issue. It isn't helpful. It has consumed time that could have been spent on worthwhile matters. The explanation provided above by Ssilvers is clear and direct, and I am in agreement. Somambulant1 (talk) 20:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Full agreement. Voluntarily or otherwise, the disruption must stop. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no way to engage with someone like Ronz. Just revert per consensus at talk, and reply to comments with a brief "as previously discussed". Johnuniq (talk) 22:39, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid simply attacking an editor is not a response, rather disruption. Could editors please WP:FOC and cite policies and guidelines that they believe support content changes? --Ronz (talk) 16:46, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Go FOC yourself.
 * You are repeatedly and belligerently disrupting this article and this talk page, which is vandalism per VAND and POINT. That you do so intentionally and dishonestly [the malapplication, not just misapplication, of policies and guidelines] renders you a vandal, in full agreement of at least three editors. You have exactly two options, and one of them is a voluntary TBAN. — ATS &#128406;  talk  20:07, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but if you are not interested in discussing content or content policies, then I don't see much point to this. Since you persist and will not respond on your talk page: Could you could identify specific comments I've made and why you find them to be evidence for vandalism? --Ronz (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You will not get another opportunity to institute a voluntary TBAN. We are done with you. — ATS &#128406;  talk  19:32, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Please make some effort to support your accusations. --Ronz (talk) 17:11, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Meantime, a proposal
,, and : the sentence in question has been changed to the unquestionably accurate "Lyrics videos of songs from Perfectly Imperfect have been released on VanderWaal's YouTubeVEVO channel." To verify "videos" (plural), we need only provide reliable sources for two of them. The proposal: cite the sentence with Billboard and Teen Vogue, and put the VEVO channel back in the external links. — ATS &#128406;  talk  23:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My only thought at the moment is that any problems in this article are very minor and I do not see a need for all the turmoil. It is impossible to fully satisfy all the people all the time. Johnuniq (talk) 00:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The ref to the VEVO uploads page unambiguously covers all five videos for all five songs on the album. However, this ref and this ref each name all 5 songs, so if you agree that one of these can be used for the proposition that all five of the lyrics videos are posted to the VEVO channel, then I would not object to citing it and moving the VEVO ref back to ELs (although the vandal may try to delete it again). Including the refs that you suggest would not verify the fact that all 5 of the songs have received lyrics videos.  Also, I note that VanderWaal (like all music creators) is responsible for all the videos posted on her VEVO channel, even if she and Columbia/Sony have an agreement for Sony to create and upload them. Therefore, it would be better grammatically (and just as accurate) to use the active voice and say: "VanderWaal has posted lyrics videos of the songs from Perfectly Imperfect to her YouTubeVEVO channel." -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I would mention three things: 1) that a potential PROMO argument, that her page needn't say all five songs have lyric videos, would not be invalid; 2) many editors have issues with IB Times as a reliable source; and 3) I do prefer that we err on the side of caution with respect to the wording.
 * That said, if there is an unquestionable consensus, no matter how small, to include the channel in the ELs, then . — ATS  &#128406;  talk  01:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) It is not promotional in the least to note the fact that all 5 songs from the album have lyrics videos. We should state that fact, as it is of encyclopedic interest to our readers. Indeed, one might add the fact that they have quickly attracted millions of views. 2) I agree that IB Times sucks, although in this case the information is not at all controversial:  the fact that these videos exist and are posted on VanderWaal's VEVO channel is as plain as the nose on her face.  3) I don't see how "caution" is involved.  VanderWaal is responsible for all videos posted to her YouTube channels, both legally and factually.  The channel belongs to VanderWaal; Sony (or whoever is making the lyrics videos) is just a contractor.  4) I agree that we should not be afraid to post the VEVO channel to ELs, as long as you are willing to help fight off the vandal.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) agree to disagree; 2) agree; 3) agree to disagree; 4) we'll cross that bridge when we find it. — ATS  &#128406;  talk  01:44, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The bottom line regarding your proposal is: Do you agree that one of the two IB Times refs can be used for the proposition that ""Lyrics videos of the songs from Perfectly Imperfect have been released on VanderWaal's YouTubeVEVO channel"? If so, which one do you prefer? And, if so, then I would agree that the VEVO ref can be moved to ELs.  If not, then I think it should stay where it is.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I would use the second of the two you include above, because the first says "videos for 'I Don’t Know My Name', 'Beautiful Thing', 'Light the Sky' and 'Clay' [were] also released online" while the second specifies YouTube (I would have preferred that they be more specific to YouTubeVEVO, but it doesn't run afoul of SYNTH since it can only be). — ATS &#128406;  talk  01:59, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My view remains the same as at the time the VEVO channel was launched, that the VEVO link should be included as an EL. Arguments to the contrary have not affected my position about that. Also, there's nothing promotional about stating a plain fact. Somambulant1 (talk) 02:54, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The link is doubly redundant, as pointed out in the previous discussion: Talk:Grace_VanderWaal. Her VEVO site is linked from both here official site and here YouTube site. All those videos are linked from her main YouTube site. It also appears the videos have been linked from most, if not all, of her other social media sites. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

First, content must be verifiable. We had one source verifying one video was hosted on VEVO. That sources has been subsequently removed, so the content is no longer verified by the references. The current source (IBT, Heimbrod) does verify that there's a lyrics video for each song on the album. How about we just remove the mention of VEVO hosting and be done with it? The source does mention all the videos are available on YouTube, and we have an external link to her YouTube website, where the videos can all be accessed. --Ronz (talk) 17:11, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No one agrees with you or your dishonest faulty arguments, Ronz. Your obstructionist "do it my way" edit warring is not appreciated. It's time for you to give it up and move on. Somambulant1 (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Dishonest? Sounds like a personal attack. Could you provide some evidence that absolutely anything I've writen here is "dishonest" in any way whatsoever? --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User Ronz, your repeated edit warring and editing against consensus is inherently dishonest, as well as disruptive. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Ronz, since you asked, here is an example of a dishonest statement you made on this page. In an apparent effort to dismiss the significance of the VEVO channel, you wrote that it had only one unique video.  You posted that statement on December 5, after seven unique videos had been posted on the VEVO channel (and not on the personal channel), and after those videos had already been discussed here. Somambulant1 (talk) 22:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * and : may I opine that WP:DENY applies here? I would prefer that the TBAN be voluntary ... — ATS &#128406;  talk  23:05, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Somambulant1, for the example.

Re: you wrote that it had only one unique video You have taken my comment out of context. At that time, only one video on the VEVO site was not linked from her YouTube site. What I said was correct. If you didn't understand (or still don't), I am happy to clarify further. --Ronz (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Discography section
I don't think it is helpful to have a Level 2 discography or filmography section, unless the section lists multiple examples. I suggest that we remove the Discography section until VanderWaal has released at least a couple more recordings. If, on the other hand, others disagree, and we are going to include a discography section in the article, why isn't the single listed? -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it's very odd to have a separate section at this stage. It is likely that it will be needed in due course, but standard procedure is to wait until then. Johnuniq (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't have a particular preference; that said, "IDKMN" should be there as a single per . — ATS &#128406;  talk  01:58, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the comments made by Ssilvers and Johnuniq above concerning removing the Discography section until there's more content. Jack1956 (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for starting a discussion on this.
 * While I'm no expert in the consensus for music-related articles, I don't see anything in WP:MOSMUSIC, MOS:DISCOGRAPHY, etc about limiting the use of a Discography section. Given the notability of the EP and all the discussion about how we need to give it prominence, it seems like a obvious way to do so. Looking for GA articles for examples, I found Lauryn_Hill and Jeff_Buckley (no longer GA). It's a long-term approach to the article. While I've seen tables for discographies (Neal_E._Boyd, and Kevin_Skinner, both AGT winners), those I think are overkill. --Ronz (talk) 17:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

External links - Jan 2017 dispute
Previous discussions:
 * Talk:Grace_VanderWaal
 * Talk:Grace_VanderWaal
 * Talk:Grace_VanderWaal
 * Talk:Grace_VanderWaal

Currently we have only her official website. Looking over all the past discussion and content changes, I personally think we had fairly good consensus with having three links (her official site, her YouTube site, and a link to her AGT audition) 3 Nov, which was changed Jan 3 after some attempts to incorporate it into the article content Dec 28. --Ronz (talk) 19:41, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

While I agree that just the one official site makes the YouTube and Vevo links redundant, last I checked the audition, which is probably the most notable aspect of her life, is not linked from any of these sites (because the content of the YouTube site changes so frequently, I've not checked to see if it has been subsequently added in the past month).

Given that her official site is just a banner with links to her social media, I have asked for an exception to EL, ELOFFICIAL, and ELMINOFFICIAL to follow the purpose of ELOFFICIAL: Official links (if any) are provided to give the reader the opportunity to see what the subject says about itself. While her YouTube site is becoming overwhelmed with her marketing campaign, it does offer links to the very personal videos she made early on. Because of this, I think her main YouTube site is worth keeping as an exception.

The videos on her VEVO site are promoted and linked from her YouTube site, completely or nearly so, and the VEVO site is linked from her YouTube site. Because of this, I think the VEVO site should not be listed. As far as I can tell, the VEVO site is just automatically populated by the hosting service, so there's nothing personal about it. I wonder why there is a special click monitor to her VEVO site from her official site through smarturl.it. --Ronz (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm happy to avoid making any edits to the article related to this topic while we get this dispute resolved. --Ronz (talk) 20:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That was not me being reverted, and identifying it as vandalism is a mistake. --Ronz (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Ronz has keept this nonsense boiling for several weeks and the above shows the absurd amount of energy and bad will Ronz is prepared to spend over a couple of external links in a good article. Unfortunately the ANI report is likely to fail owing to tactical mistakes but Ronz should know that their triumph involves bullying good editors over a trivial issue. Johnuniq (talk) 01:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't believe following our policies and guidelines is "nonsense", nor do I believe this is a good article (Talk:Grace_VanderWaal).
 * Which "bad will" would that be? Incivility? Accusations of vandalism? Refusal to engage in basic discussion with other editors? Claiming consensus while ignoring arguments based upon policies and guidelines?
 * I'm extremely sorry that anything I've done would be considered "bullying", but it's apparent that some things I have done are seen in that light. Pointing to AGF, CIVIL, BATTLE, etc doesn't resolve the bad feelings that have come to a boil or near so. I honestly would like suggestions on how to balance improving this encyclopedia with de-escalating the emotional responses that editors can have, and have been working on this matter for many years now. (If you have any, leave me a note)
 * Meanwhile, I think it best to resolve this content dispute clearly, because I agree that there are much bigger problems to address. --Ronz (talk) 01:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You cannot see how dominating good editors over very minor issues is counterproductive in a collaborative project like Wikipedia? Your bulldog approach would be fine with SPAs who are using the encyclopedia to promote a cause, but any soap issues here are very minor and are certainly not due to the article being used for promotion. Johnuniq (talk) 02:12, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Who is dominating who? You did see me mention AGF, CIVIL, and BATTLE? I'm trying to create strong consensus by focusing on policies and guidelines. If we can't do that for something so simple, how can we possibly do it for anything else?
 * Meanwhile, we disagree on the SOAP issues. I'd like to be able to approach them without being told they don't exist or are minor before I even make a case. (I think the first discussion was productive, but we were side-tracked.) --Ronz (talk) 02:26, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This article was created on 14 September 2016. Since then, you have edited this talk page 62 times, my talk 13 times, and made another four edits at two other editor's talk. The article is in good shape for a new topic, and your bluster is only causing distress that helps drive good editors away from Wikipedia—editors who develop articles like this. It may be possible for you to win a battle and remove a couple of external links but the cost is far too high while the benefit is far too low. Johnuniq (talk) 04:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we're going in circles at this point, which I already pointed out on your talk. Again, who's dominating who? Who's bluster? Consensus can be difficult, especially when editors choose to make it so. --Ronz (talk) 16:22, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:ELNO, WP:ELOFFICIAL WP:ELMINOFFICIAL are very clear that for biographies there are one external link to official websites and to avoid linking to social media. Her official webpage contains links to all her social media accounts, including both the youtube and VEVO channels. Ref 21 in the article contains a link to the audition video. None of the external links contain any unique content that is not already linked in the article or through her official website. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is also very clear that local consensus does not override wider community policies and guidelines without a very good reason. Said good reason is completely absent here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your conclusions about the interpretation of those rules in every case. For example, they do not say that only one EL to official websites are allowed.  As we have discussed above, WP:ELOFFICIAL states that Normally only one official link should be included and goes on to state that "If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. ... Choose the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information."  This article has only 4 ELs. You want to delete 3 of those. VanderWaal is notable mainly for three things: (1) her YouTube videos; (2) her new EP; and (3) her appearances (and win) on AGT. The first is a link to the subject's main YouTube channel. The second is a link to the "videos" page of her GraceVanderWaalVEVO channel that features her EP and the songs on the EP. The third links to the appearance on AGT that made the subject notable and famous and which has been viewed well over 100 million times on social media (both YouTube and Facebook). Each of these three links supports one of the three key indicia of WanderWaal's notability.  As WP:ELOFFICIAL requires, they are  "the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information".  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah so ignoring completely the bit that says do not link if already linked from their official website. Got it. In short, your interpretation of a commonly applied guideline (which expressly addresses this situation to avoid spam youtube links) in your mind allows you to spam youtube links. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You don't understand what "spam" means. WP:LINKSPAM says: "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam." These two links are not added to promote YouTube.  In fact the opposite.  They allow our readers to see VanderWaal's videos and hear her music *for free*!  If a person searches for this article on Wikipedia, in addition to the information that we give about her, they very likely want to get quick access to her videos and to see the original AGT performance that made her famous.  That is exactly what we link to.  That is what makes Wikipedia a useful online resource.  The purpose of the EL guidelines is to help give substance to our policies WP:N and WP:NOT. They are there to prevent articles from becoming indiscriminate lists of links or to promote commercial sales of a product or service, not to stop our readers from freely accessing the most important material about our subjects. Guidelines, as they all state at the top, should be applied with common sense.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:11, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I think this longterm tempest in a teacup can be solved with a little WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:AGF, and WP:COLLABORATE. It makes sense to me that a notable singer's YouTube channel be provided as an EL (in addition to their official webpage, even if there is a crosslink there). [Especially so when the bulk of their notable output is on YouTube rather than available via other channels (such as CDs or iTunes).] I think the audition link is notable and important enough to include, separately, as well. I think it's also probably helpful to the reader to separate out the Vevo link as well, since it features her EP. None of these links were added in bad faith or as spam or promotion, but simply as aids to the reader. Also, none of the linked guidelines (not policies) strictly forbids the use of more than one official site, and they allow for a "minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information". It is the reader we always need to keep in mind when editing Wikipedia, not the forced implementation of guidelines which are themselves already flexible. Softlavender (talk) 07:32, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Excellent points, all. I must say, it's been particularly grating to be accused of spamming ... — ATS &#128406;  talk  07:54, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I'm going to have to agree with on this issue. WP:ELNO, WP:ELOFFICIAL WP:ELMINOFFICIAL are accepted by Community Consensus. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS does not over ride those policies. Especially with as few editors as have commented here. It would be different if a WP:RFC came to another conclusion. Looking at it from a possible WP:GA point of view if I was the reviewer that would be a flag for me when revising the article. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 05:47, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * They are not policies, and they do not forbid the use of more than one official site; in fact they allow for a "minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information". Also note that even a content guideline is "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply". WP:LOCALCONSENSUS does not even apply here; this is not a WikiProject dictum, it is a WP:COMMONSENSE discussion about a single article, as recommended in the guideline. Softlavender (talk) 06:17, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The burden is on the editors wishing to include the material. Claiming WP:LOCALCONSENSUS doesn't apply in the face of vast community consensus and policy (WP:NOT), is not a way to convince anyone that any specific content belongs.
 * I've not tried counting how many times the audition video is available through all the refs, but we can all agree that it's there, and even highlighted in the content. As such, it doesn't belong in the External links section.
 * The VEVO link contributes a total of two videos with unique content, if editors feel that individual performances of the same songs count as unique content at all. Unique content suitable for additional external links in an article about a person? I don't see how anyone could make a convincing argument. --Ronz (talk) 16:23, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You are wrong, Ronz, as has been explained to you above by Somambulant1. I would agree to convert the EL to the VEVO channel to a ref in the body of the article where we discuss the lyrics videos if ATS and the other editors on this page all agree. I can't fathom why a person of good faith would continue to waste everyone's time here. Really, don't you have anything constructive to do? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Who's wrong, and how? I've provided evidence for my views, asked for others to do the same, and no one did then or since. The two performances that are unique to the VEVO site currently are the ones for the Today Show and the Tonight Show. Everyone is welcome to take a look. Perhaps I'm missing something. I'd like to get this settled, as it is part of the dispute resolution discussion that I'd like to submit. --Ronz (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That's another outright untruth by you, Ronz. As you well know, because I have explained this to you above, the recent videos on the personal YouTube channel are *not* the lyrics videos; they are just promos for the lyrics videos.  The lyrics videos exist only on the VEVO channel.  It strains credulity that you are claiming not to understand that, even though I pointed it out to you previously.  Also you are the only person who has not responded to other editor's requests, after Somambulant1 patiently provided the evidence for his/her views.  After all of your unconstructive editing, we *must* conclude that you are merely trolling this page in a spiteful campaign to waste as much of other editors' time as possible. Again, I urge you to stop. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter where they are hosted, but rather where they are linked from. I'm saying the album videos are doubly linked from her personal YouTube page: the six videos (the five lyrics videos and "Grace VanderWaal - Perfectly Imperfect") are individually linked from her Hosts subsection (under the heading "Perfectly Imperfect EP out now!", and there is a playlist that includes them as well. --Ronz (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * These are the most important works by VanderWaal since the release of her EP. So you are wrong: it *does* matter where they are hosted, and a direct link to them is just common sense, as required by all Wikipedia guidelines.  As I said, if you can get ATS and the other editors who actually care about this article to agree, I would be willing to agree with a new consensus to covert the link to an in-line ref. Otherwise, please just go away and stop wasting everyone's time. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I doubt there will be any consensus for giving external links priority based upon what they host vs what they link to. I'm unaware of it ever making a difference in any dispute over external links.
 * I'm glad that it's now clear what I mean when I say that there are only two unique videos linked from the VEVO channel. Thanks for taking the time to help settle that. Ssilvers, thank you for taking the time to work with me to settle the confusion about this. (refactored --Ronz (talk) 01:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC) ) --Ronz (talk) 00:33, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your insincere thanks betrays the true nature of your mission—to grind down opponents regardless of the merits of a particular case. Who cares what damage is done so long as a couple of links are removed? Who cares how long it takes to win? Johnuniq (talk) 00:40, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Why do you feel it is insincere? I've refactored, and am happy to make further changes if there's anything I wrote that conveys anything long those lines.
 * As far as merits go, this is a matter in which multiple editors felt I was being less that accurate. I think such misunderstandings are important to resolve. --Ronz (talk) 01:16, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

In the hope we can get clear consensus and move on from this, I've started a discussion at ELN. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Vevo's link removed from External links section and added as a primary source instead
The edit summary didn't indicate any of this, so I wanted to make it apparent for anyone looking to close the ELN dispute or otherwise review the situation. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

ELN discussion
Closed by. — ATS &#128406;  talk ; closure effective 18:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Summarizing the closing arguments:
 * Clear consensus to keep the official website and the audition link.
 * Rough consensus to include her YouTube channel: After sorting through the weeds, comes down mostly to an argument of assisting a reader versus WP:ELMINOFFICIAL, with a rough consensus for inclusion
 * No consensus to include VEVO's link, There is no consensus on either keeping or removing the Vevo site. Policy- and guideline-based arguments suggest against it, and the arguments in favor are largely based n personal preferences --Ronz (talk) 15:49, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Singer-songwriter
I'm wondering why the subject is billed as a "singer and songwriter" rather than a "singer-songwriter"? Typically an artist is only described as a "singer and songwriter" if a significant degree of the said artist's notability is also for writing songs for others—rather than for themselves alone—to sing, as a distinctly separate facet of the artist's career; Vanderwaal, however, is the epitome of a "singer-songwriter", as she only writes songs for herself to sing and has never written a song for anyone else to perform. I propose that this be swiftly remedied, as it is truly a factual error. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 13:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Great! Much better now. But how do we change it in the description under the article name?WikiEditorial101 (talk) 14:42, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * You mean the needless repetition in the Disinfobox? Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait, I'm referring to what I just realized is a new feature that must only be viewable from the mobile version (it displays like the first half of the sentence of the lead (basic nationality/occupation/notability), as, now that I look, it's not there on the desktop version. It still reads "singer and songwriter", and I've not figured out who or what determines what it says or how to edit it. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 15:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * A singer-songwriter is a specific type of singer that performs folk/acoustic music; such as Bob Dylan, Ed Sheeran, etc. Artists that just happen to both sing and write songs are referred to as a singer and songwriter. Like artists such as Katy Perry, Rihanna, Lady Gaga, etc. Read more at singer-songwriter. Because of this, I'd say VanderWaal is more of a singer and songwriter, rather than a singer-songwriter. { [ ( jjj   1238 ) ] }  16:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia cannot cite itself; that said, both the article and the sources contradict this assertion. In addition, per OED, a singer-songwriter "sings and writes popular songs, especially professionally"; Collins specifies "their own songs"; AllMusic writes, "most singer/songwriter records have a similar sound, which is usually spare, direct, and reflective, which places the emphasis on the song itself"; SongCat adds, "many songs in the genre are built on personal experiences or life situations, resulting in singer-songwriters often connecting with audiences on a more relatable level."
 * TL;DR: I support the change. — ATS &#128406;  talk  18:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that she seems to satisfy the definition of singer-songwriter. It seems quite clear to me that one does not need to be a folk singer to be a singer-songwriter. As WikiEditorial101 notes, VanderWaal has not written songs for other professional singers. Therefore, I made the suggested change. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Relation to the physicist Van der Waals?
Is there a relation to the dutch physicist Johannes Diderik van der Waals? I mean, her family name name whould be a prime example of an americanised Version of Van der Waals. --122.103.84.111 (talk) 04:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello, . Since the purpose of a talk page is to improve the article, a yes answer to the question could, if notable, be considered an improvement—but there would need to be a reliable source for such data. If you are aware of one, please let us know. — ATS &#128406;  talk  05:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It's not "Smith", but Van der Wal and derivatives thereof is a quite common Dutch surname. (It means 'the guy who lives by the dam'; dams not being really rare in the Netherlands.) The chances of establishing a connection are slim, to say the least. Hotel Papa (talk) 09:31, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Grace's Management
I'd like to mention/add that Grace is currently managed by TH3RDBRAIN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamMcNaughton (talk • contribs) 15:17, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing it up on the talk page. I am going to assume you have reviewed WP:COI and will acknowledge that you have a conflict of interest here.
 * Reference #66 verifies it: http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7841029/grace-vanderwaal-new-song-moonlight-listen without history, context or anything else that demonstrates much encyclopedic value.
 * I'm surprised there is no field for it in Template:Infobox musical artist. It is not included because of WP:NOT concerns: Template_talk:Infobox_musical_artist/Archive_5
 * The very briefest mention might be okay with the single source, but I don't recall seeing anything similar in good articles, while I have seen it in poor articles about relatively new artists.
 * I searched WikiProject Musicians for discussions on the topic, but didn't find any.
 * Overall, I think it would be best to keep out at this point given the above. --Ronz (talk) 15:27, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It is not encyclopedic to mention an artist's manager, agent, lawyer, makeup artist, etc. unless there is a special relationship that goes beyond their professional duties on behalf of the artist. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The name of management is not essential or useful information that is helpful to the reader. Somambulant1 (talk) 23:18, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Grace now also plays the guitar
Vanderwaal has begun playing the guitar. She played a cover of Ed Sheeran's "The A Team" at an appearance recently at Paste magazine studios using the guitar that Shawn Mendes gave to her. She also played the guitar to accompany her Alessia Cara cover, "Scars to Your Beautiful", on the Elvis Duran and the Morning Show on Z100. [ADD: Huffington Post published this article and Teen Vogue published this one praising the cover and noting Cara's reaction]. Should we mention the guitar playing yet in the article yet? -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm leaning CRYSTAL on this one. Perhaps in passing—"she accompanied herself on guitar" or somesuch—as part of a sentence about a notable appearance, until we're certain (from an encylopedic standpoint) that it's more than a fancy. — ATS &#128406;  talk  07:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. Let's wait until she plays it in a TV or major concert appearance. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:48, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Grace Has played the Guitar for public performances at a scholarship benefit dinner in February 2017, at a concert in Franklin Lakes NJ in May and at the Shops of Nanuet summer concert series in July. In addition two of the three bonus tracks on the Japanses version of her Perfectly Imperfect EP (released May 2017) have her on the Guitar. So it does appear as if this is more than a fancy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geebeewawt (talk • contribs) 16:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2017
Tell them that she also performed on America's Got Talent 2017! Brax232 (talk) 20:41, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 20:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Actually, it already says so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:56, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Belgian chart listings wrong
The article lists Moonlight as reaching nr. 22 on the Belgian (Wallonian) charts. This is not correct. The song was at 22, and now is at 13, in the Wallonian bubbling under. Somebody must have confused this with an actual chart list.... The header says 'Ultratop' but the sub-header says 'Bubbling under'. So please change BEL (W) into BEL (W) Bub. !

(PS I don't know why I can't edit myself, I have definitely made more than 10 changes....)Eti erik (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You have only made 7 edits.  JTP (talk • contribs) 22:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Sparkling Pessimist   Scream at me!  02:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh I see, it counts every language separately. I have made dozens of edits in the Wikipedia of my native language and apparently only seven in English... so that's why. (And I can edit by now...)

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BMI song list, MTV/Colbert Show
She is not listed at ASCAP but at BMI http://repertoire.bmi.com/Catalog.aspx?detail=writerid&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&keyid=1775794&subid=0 Perhaps her MTV interview/performance and todays Colbert Late Show performance should be put into article. Eifelochse (talk) 03:36, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Colbert is there. I doubt that the MTV interview is noteworthy. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Origin
I suggest adding Suffern, NY back to the infobox as Grace's origin. It's misleading to say that Grace was born in Kansas while not also mentioning she lives in New York, given that she has been based in New York since she was 2 years old. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


 * We *do* say that she lives in Suffern. You are asking about the Infobox only.  The "Origin" parameter in the infobox is for the place "where individual performer started their career".  VanderWaal's career began by winning AGT in Los Angeles.  Therefore, it is not correct to say that her "origin" is Suffern. That is just her residence address.  It is better to leave this confusing and misleading parameter out of the infobox and to describe the fact, as we do, in the narrative text below.  BTW, do you have a WP:RS stating when the family moved to Suffern? That would be helpful.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The definition of the origin on the template page seems vague, particularly in this case. I don't agree with the interpretation that where Grace first performed is "where she started her career." For instance, with that definition, why wouldn't New York City -- where she auditioned for AGT -- be her origin? While she was performing in Los Angeles for the later rounds, she never re-located there. She was still living in Suffern. For that reason, it seems far more practical to interpret the definition of "origin" that way. And, the Izadi source (from the Kansas City Star) already in the article says she moved to Suffern at age 2. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 20:28, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think you just proved why the origin parameter is not helpful in this infobox.  The Early life section of the article is crystal clear that she lives in Suffern, NY.  I wouldn't mind adding something into the Lead section if you think it's important. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Grace's origin is Suffern, NY. You are the only one who claims it is Los Angeles or anywhere else. Numerous other contestants from AGT have their origins listed as their hometowns (including Landau Eugene Murphy Jr., Michael Grimm, Jessica Sanchez, Emily West, Kevin Skinner, etc.). The origin has nothing to do with AGT. You can find the same thing with artists who started out on American Idol (such as Phillip Phillips) and other reality shows (such as Danielle Bradbery on The Voice). It's not ambiguous. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 01:18, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If it is necessary to present reasons why Suffern is the origin, that information becomes WP:OR and/or WP:UNDUE. If there is no reliable source saying where VanderWaal started her career, there is no clear origin, and it is both pointless and misleading to fill-in-the-boxes in the infobox. Johnuniq (talk) 03:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Suffern, NY is her origin because that was her residence at the time she started her career. There are countless sources to back this up, such as https://www.earnthenecklace.com/grace-vanderwaal-family-4-things-you-need-to-know/. Even Ssilvers agrees that Suffern was her residence at the time she started her career -- it was stated in one of the comments above. The only disagreement is whether that is the correct definition. I asked for a clarification that "her residence at the time she started her career" is by definition her origin on the Template talk:Infobox musical artist page, and this definition was confirmed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:50, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus here to add the parameter. It doesn't seem helpful to just keep repeating yourself, and your giving incomplete information at the template talk page without linking to this discussion only supplied a "garbage in, garbage out" confirmation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That is nonsense. It was already in the article (and put there by someone other than me) before you removed it. From WP:NOCON, you need consensus to remove it: A lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. No one has supported your claim, so it should stay in the article. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong. It was added yesterday and is not part of the stable version of the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That is not true. It was there a month ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grace_VanderWaal&diff=830250839&oldid=830250112. It was also there in September (eight months ago): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grace_VanderWaal&diff=800706297&oldid=800706187Sportsfan77777 (talk) 07:35, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with Johnuniq: residential information is potentially confusing if added to the info-box merely as "Origin - such and such" – it is also really very minor. Keep the i-b clear and simple. Place of birth is what is wanted. Details of later domiciles can be found in the lead and main text, where they belong.  Tim riley  talk   07:46, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

This issue has been a big one with the Bee Gees article. Their origin has been the subject of much debate, both inside and outside Wikipedia. The solution has been to not display an origin at all in the Infobox, telling the more detailed story in the text, and including in the template the note... " | origin    = " HiLo48 (talk) 07:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree totally with Ssilvers above in that the origin parameter should not be added to the Infobox, as it is not needed there, and the beginning of VanderWaal's career is better described in the narrative text of the article. Jack1956 (talk) 16:10, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, if there is consensus, then keep it out. Do you suggest removing the origin parameter from other musical artists who got their start on AGT or other reality shows? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 17:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, usually, because "origin" is not a very important parameter, Infoboxes should be kept as short as possible, and most people who get their career start on reality shows will have a substantial part of their article describing that experience. But I don't go around starting disputes on Wikipedia.  I work on articles that I care about enough to do substantial research for (about 2,000 of them). -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:22, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Michaelson collaboration
VanderWaal's duet with Ingrid Michaelson on the latter's upcoming album is premature to mention. It will not be noteworthy unless it charts well. I removed the reference to it for now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:17, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Why should we only list singles that chart?
A song's single status is not dependent on whether it charts or not, so the singles section is incomplete. Songs can be released as singles and fail to chart; this happens very often. I have changed the heading to "Charted singles" to accurately reflect what the section displays. We should not be misleading readers into believing they are looking at a full wikitable of VanderWaal's singles when all they are seeing is the singles that have charted somewhere. "Charted singles" is a heading used on articles where editors, for some reason or another, have chosen to only list charting singles. Has there been a prior discussion or consensus on this matter, or is this just one editor's idea of what should be listed? This article is quite at odds with the majority of Wikipedia discographies and discography sections, where we list all songs released as singles. (Regarding replies, please do not ping me)  Ss  112   14:21, 24 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Because if they don't chart then they're not very WP:NOTEWORTHY. Feel free to remove the singles altogether.  They are not needed in a bio article, only in a discography article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the section of WP:N you just linked would appear to not agree with you. "Notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article", so therefore it follows that we probably should include the singles. "The notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles or lists (with the exception of lists which restrict inclusion to notable items or people)", and as this isn't a list article, that note doesn't really apply, and it's not like it would be giving undue weight to include the set of singles she has released—she doesn't appear to have even released that many overall. VanderWaal doesn't have a discography long enough to split out that section, so until such a time, it seems appropriate to retain the discography section on her article, with the singles she has released.  Ss  112   03:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * You are making a common error. Notability is different from noteworthiness.  You misread WP:N.  It is saying that the standard for judging content within an article is not "Notability", but rather noteworthiness -- that is, whether the material is important under "the principle of due weight and other content policies."  Clearly, non-charting singles are not of encyclopedic importance to her main article, so they should not be mentioned, unless there is a particular association that makes them particularly noteworthy. See also WP:BALASP.-- Ssilvers (talk) 18:49, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm approaching it from a discography standard standpoint. Discographies have their own set of standards that are in practise, even if they are not in an officially accepted proposal (WP:DISCOGSTYLE not being universally agreed upon, but much of its content is still in practise). While I'm acutely aware said section is still part of her BLP, we are not mentioning every non-charting single in the prose and nor am I saying we should. I am not aware of any other instances where editors have said we should remove singles from a discography's (or discography section's) wikitable because they're not "noteworthy". If we're purporting to list an artist's singles, singles that did not chart are still singles regardless of whether they are noteworthy or not. I mean, you can cite how Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or tell me I am mistaken about whatever else you like, but nobody else seems to have these concerns when it comes to single wikitables and listing an artist's releases—or at least, none that I am aware of. Really though, beyond this, I can't muster up much more care for what happens on the BLP of a teenage girl whose period of success largely appears to be over. However, I will say that making this article non-standard by excluding releases and saying listing a few more of them would be giving "undue weight" to them like it falls under the same standards applied to a viewpoint in prose is a really odd way to come at this situation when nobody else has.  Ss  112   19:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I disagree, but if you cannot see any distinction between important things and trivial things, then I suggest that we remove all the singles from the main article and do not "purport" to list singles. This is not a discography article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I certainly can see a distinction between important and trivial things when I think said things are trivial.  Ss  112   17:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Number of followers
I'm afraid the material is not well-referenced at all. Of course it is absolutely reliable, but it is totally primary , which fails to prove its relevance. Is the number of followers she has notable by itself? Has it been discussed by third-party sources? My point is: like they say, this is basically a tree falling in a forest without anyone taking notice of it. Mentioning the number of followers in articles about celebrities (except for internet personalities) just for the sake of it is no common practice at all — otherwise, it would be just another parameter of our infoboxes. Btw, just noticed did the same as me one month ago, only he provided an even more accurate reason for it: it's sheer WP:FANCRUFT. Victão Lopes Fala! 14:53, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. People only add follow counts to articles when they want to boost the importance of a subject, and it makes for poor content in general. Why list somebody's Instagram follow count when anyone can check that on Instagram? – DarkGlow (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. We need independent sources demonstrating the importance of the information. I'd expect there's some general consensus on what social media information to present and when. --Ronz (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Among other sources, Forbes thinks VanderWaal's social media following is important. See this. Vanity Fair mentions it as one of VanderWaal's key facts here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:05, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The Forbes link is a simple profile, so I'm not sure it demonstrates any due weight.
 * I'm not seeing anything in the Vanity Fair piece. Am I missing something? --Ronz (talk) 02:26, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, in the 2nd paragraph. Also, nothing could be more weighty than a profile entirely about the artist in a major independent magazine. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:36, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Forbes mentions her number of followers in what appears to be her profile description on their website, but they don't say the month and year when this information was true and the number is rather vague (How did they calculate it? Which social media were considered?). Vanity Fair, like you said, mentions her number of followers, but offers no actual coverage on it.  Victão Lopes  Fala! 05:43, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

We know exactly how many followers she has from the social media websites themselves, which were clearly cited in the stable version of the article, and are reliable numbers, as you admit above. The Forbes and Vanity Fair references confirm that this large social media following is of importance to their editors and readers, just as they are to ours. A brief mention of the size of social media followings is of interest to Wikipedia readers in this day and age when the subject of a bio article has millions of social media followers. To omit them is simply an old-fashioned and out-of-date bias against new media. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Please WP:FOC. If you can find any general consensus for inclusion of such info with such sources, please identify it. Otherwise, an RfC maybe? --Ronz (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with including this information. It provides a measure of an individual's influence.Somambulant1 (talk) 05:44, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Especially in a BLP dispute, policy-based arguments are required, hence my asking for identification of any general consensus. --Ronz (talk) 05:54, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:Featured Articles for performer biographies, such as Katy Perry, include this information. A Featured Article represents the consensus of numerous editors throughout an arduous review process, which is why they are considered Wikipedia's best content. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:01, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:OSE. Please focus on policy and sourcing. --Ronz (talk) 17:08, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * If it is of interest to Wikipedia readers, they can check the websites themselves. Thankfully, it's not our mission to provide them with every information they may be possibly willing to know. I invite you to take a closer look at the very article you used as an example. Katy's number of followers is discussed within a bigger context of Guinness records and her position among the most influential personalities on the internet. That's the key point. She has achieved something beyond the triviality of being famous and having lots of followers as a consequence. Victão Lopes  Fala! 21:34, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: Trust me, not too long ago I would be agreeing with Ssilvers on a basis similar to Anastrophe's: "I don't care, but I see no harm". It took me over a decade of editing to fully grasp how "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia" and "this information is sourced so it deserves to be here" are opposite ideas. It's not too easy an idea to understand as I made it look like. Victão Lopes  Fala! 23:25, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Information about the artist's social media following should be included in the article, and that since there is no consensus to delete the information, then, per WP:BRD, it should be reinstated. Jack1956 (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * That would be a BLP violation to do so. --Ronz (talk) 22:58, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * How so? Please cite the specific violation it meets. Anastrophe (talk) 23:04, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE --Ronz (talk) 23:10, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE, in what way does the material not comply with Wikipedia's content policies - not essays, but actual policies? The opening sentence of WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE makes it clear it has to do with material that is disputed on policy grounds, none of which the material violates (it's written neutrally, in clear language, and uses reliable sources). Anastrophe (talk) 23:17, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the policy does not prevent restoration of the material, because the information is "written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources." -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * What exactly is "Information about the artist's social media following should be included in the article" based on? Victão Lopes  Fala! 23:25, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * BLP clearly states the burden is on those seeking inclusion. --Ronz (talk) 23:28, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, and what exactly are your BLP policy-based, good-faith objections to the material? I think we may be faced with a recursive argument. Anastrophe (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but the burden is on you. If you can't make a policy-based case that results in consensus for inclusion, start an RfC or let it be. --Ronz (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The burden of proof has been met. The material does not violate any BLP policies. The material complies with Wikipedia's content policies. Unless you can articulate specifically how the material is in violation of BLP, then this is an entirely recursive argument. You - the editor objecting to the material - must articulate your good-faith objection to the material in order for editors to bring it into compliance. Anastrophe (talk) 23:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that's not how burden and consensus works. If you have questions, ask them. Meanwhile, WP:FOC. --Ronz (talk) 00:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * "Especially in a BLP dispute, policy-based arguments are required". I have a question: What BLP policy does the material violate? Anastrophe (talk) 00:39, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Only briefly skimming the comments, and not wanting to speak for others, but I see NOT, POV, and BLP. I agree with them all. --Ronz (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Rather than throwing the alphabetti spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks, which sections or sentences of those policies do you think the information in question breaches? Please quote the relevant sections of the policy and explain where the breach is please. - SchroCat (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

A few points from a completely disinterested editor.
 * I respectfully suggest that mention of WP:FOC in response to user Ssilvers comment is out of place. Ssilvers made a general comment, not directed at any particular editors; it's an observation. It perhaps could have been phrased slightly differently; either way, it's not so severe as to require brandishing a policy pointer. If Ssilvers had said anyone who was against their inclusion was a Nazi, we'd be on different ground.
 * I respectfully suggest that the mention of WP:OSE is also out of place; it misrepresents an essay as a policy, which it explicitly is not. One should apply a 'reasonable person' test to whether other stuff is out of place.
 * Consensus doesn't inherently trump unambiguous reliably sourced content. It seems to be relevant information in 2020 - in this particular case, I would opine. A mention of Instagram followers in the article for Theodore Roosevelt would probably be out of place. Not so here.
 * Lastly, I had no idea who Grace VanderWaal is before stumbling across this article while falling down the Wikipedia-rabbit-hole. I had a listen to one of her songs. It was pleasant. I personally don't care in the slightest about her social media numbers. However, I also see no identifiable harm to the quality of this article by their inclusion - it's a single line, I am capable of skimming on to the next section of the article if it means nothing to me. I suspect most other readers share that capability. If it were a large chart of ever-changing numbers, that would be a different matter. At worst, it would be appropriate to add "as of 2020" to the line, to keep temporal context. Cheers. Anastrophe (talk) 18:23, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Should we move the information to the Reputation and Accolades section? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:01, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I would say yes, it's not really in the right location now, and it is a measure of reputation, albeit proxy. Anastrophe (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, thanks. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:34, 4 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Staggering strawman to try and claim there is a BLP violation here. Social media is an important part of many artistes these days, and publications like Forbes have commented on this. The number of followers is (in general terms) widely reported nowadays. The information is sourced and well-written and claims it should be removed on the basis of WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE are nonsense: it's an WP:IDONTLIKEIT rejection of new media, rather than a reversion based on a relevant part of any policy. Oh, and Ronz, don't ever edit war on people's talk pages again. - SchroCat (talk) 23:51, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed BLP RFC: include or exclude social media numbers, v2
The following line is in dispute for inclusion in the article:

"In its 2019 profile of VanderWaal, Forbes stated that she had accumulated 8 million followers on social media. As of 2020, VanderWaal's Instagram account has more than 3 million followers, her YouTube channel has more than 3 million subscribers, and her Facebook page has more than 1 million followers. "

The arguments for exclusion are violation of WP:BLP (because the material is disputed), WP:NOT (an indiscriminate collection of information), WP:FANCRUFT (only relevant to fans) and WP:POV (I'm unable to find the rationale for this last). WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE has been cited as rationale for exclusion, absent consensus on the suitability of the material.

The arguments for inclusion are that it it does not violate WP:BLP, is not excessive to the point of triggering WP:NOT for the BLP of an actively engaged and followed media personality, is not WP:FANCRUFT (for the same reason), and WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE is a guideline for admins, not editors so isn't a trigger until admin intervention.

Should this material be included or excluded from the article?

''The specific arguments for/against may not be absolutely exact, however they're a starting point for disinterested editors to review. Is the above a suitable rendering of the dispute? (I do not intend to argue for/against within the Rfc - I think it's more helpful if uninvolved editors make their arguments.)'' Anastrophe (talk) 18:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposals
Thus far, editor Ronz has submitted three proposals, none of which apparently have been satisfactory to other editors. The "results" of the RfC suggest inclusion of the material or some variation on it appropriate, the issue being, what exactly is appropriate. We need more proposals; it would be ideal if they were from uninvolved/uninvested editors, but that's a tall order. I am not invested enough to write a proposal myself.

Bickering/lawyering over vague policy issues isn't necessary at this juncture - the material doesn't violate any policies (note, policies, not essays) tendered so far, at least not with specific chapter and verse cited and verified; the material suggested for inclusion is brief, and relevant to this individual's BLP. It's not a mountain, it's a molehill, we don't need a demolition crew. As I've mentioned before, I've hardly ever dealt with the formal/lawyerly aspects of editing wikipedia in my years here, so I don't know offhand if there's a mechanism for requesting that uninvolved editors offer compromise drafts, but if there is, I'd be delighted to learn how to make such a request. Anastrophe (talk) 18:56, 12 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Nothing is needed. The material disputed by Ronz is fine.  "Uninvolved" editors are not better than editors who have followed and researched the subject. The RfC was a wasteful effort to involve more "uninvolved" editors who don't care about this article. It never was necessary and has wasted everyone's time.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Rock music; bass playing
I think it is too early to add it to the article, but VanderWaal's new 2021 song is rock, not pop, and she plays bass, not ukulele. See this. She told Nylon that she is working on a rock "project". See also WP:RECENT. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:23, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. We shouldn't get caught up in publicity and early reactions. --Hipal (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2021 (UTC)