Talk:Grand Canyon National Park

Recent change from Hualapai people to Havasupia [sic] people, part 1: reversion
In the section Geography--South Rim--Activities, there was a reference to companies offering helicopter flights landing "3500 feet in the Grand Canyon in Hualapai Indian territory." It included a citation to one such company.

This statement was changed to refer to "Havasupia [sic] Indian territory." I've reverted this change. Aside from the misspelling (it's "Havasupai"), the original statement was correct, as shown in the citation. There is also helicopter service to the Havasupai town of Supai, but the specified citation does not provide support for that claim.

Map?
A map showing the extent of the park relative to the entire geologic system would be really nice to have. Huw Powell (talk) 17:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Removal of information from section Development
In section 'Development', I deleted statements that were not applicable to Grand Canyon National Park. This information might belong in article Grand Canyon, but I haven't added it there for the following reasons: --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 04:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The Skywalk is already discussed in Grand Canyon.
 * I'm not convinced the Grand Canyon Escalade project is of sufficient importance to deserve mention in Grand Canyon, especially since it's still speculative. If anyone wishes to add this to that article, I'm won't contest it.

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150402112741/http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title16/pdf/USCODE-2011-title16-chap6-sec687.pdf to http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title16/pdf/USCODE-2011-title16-chap6-sec687.pdf

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North Rim
Concerning the statement "The North Rim is a smaller, more remote area"; looking at the map in the link given to corroborate it (|title=How Do I Travel to the North Rim?) it seems that, on the contrary, the North rim part of the Grand Canyon National Park is much larger than the South Rim part. אביהו (talk) 14:12, 31 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The bottom line: I agree that "smaller" might best be removed, even though it's probably correct. It doesn't add much to the article, and leads to more questions than answers. This is one of those areas I try to avoid discussing, because it's horribly, horribly messy -- and it's very unlikely that reliable sources will be found for any of the following (although it's frequently discussed on forums).


 * Terminology surrounding the Grand Canyon is confusing; it's messy; it's poorly defined. First, the term "south rim" (common noun) means something different than "South Rim" (proper noun). The same is true for "north rim" and "North Rim". The common noun "south rim" refers to all of the rim that's on the south side of the Colorado River -- and yes, I realize this is a very poor, vague, imprecise definition, but there really isn't a perfect definition. The proper noun "South Rim" refers to a portion of the south rim that is most frequented by tourists. Again, there's no precise definition; I think of it as from Hermit's Rest to the Watchtower, but other people have other definitions. "North Rim" and "north rim" are defined in an analagous way.


 * As it turns out, far fewer people visit the North Rim; the area most visited by tourists is smaller. Thus, the Wikipedia article's statement is arguably correct. However, I don't see that it adds much useful information, and it clearly DOES add to confusion. So, feel free to remove it.Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 15:06, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That's what I did in my translation to the Hebrew Wikipedia article which I am preparing. BTW I found what looks like two other small errors: RV Park named Trailer Village is managed by Delaware North and not by Xanterra Parks & Resorts, and the paragraph about North rim lodging should not be under South Rim Lodging. אביהו (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Helicopter flights in Hualapai Indian territory
We should probably remove the sentence about helicopter flights in Hualapai territory, as that is outside of the national park. In addition, the sentence is unintelligible, and uses a Spam link as a source. I've taken a compromise position, and reworded the sentence, using a somewhat less spammy source. If anyone wants to delete the sentence entirely, they have my blessing! --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 15:35, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

"South Rim", "south rim", "North Rim", "north rim" and Geography
This article sometimes confuses "South Rim" with "south rim". They're two different critters. "South Rim" is a proper name that has no precise definition. The South Rim is a portion of the south rim surrounding Grand Canyon Village, plus some view points on either side. A similar problem exists with "North Rim" and north rim.

This confusion causes problems. One such problem is the second paragraph under Geography, where it talks about the proper names, then switches to lower case "rim" when talking about bridges. It further confuses things by talking about bridges which are outside of the boundary of Grand Canyon National Park (and the Grand Canyon as well). Thus: At this point, it seems best to remove the reference enitrely. Also, the information is more of the travel guide variety than encyclopedic. --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * the bridges don't come close to connecting the North Rim and South Rim.
 * the bridges don't even connect the north rim and south rim of the Grand Canyon, since the bridges are located outside of the Grand Canyon (and GCNP) and thus not part of either rim.

"Grand Canyon" versus the Grand Canyon region
I'm not sure if quotes are appropriate, but it is incorrect to say that the Grand Canyon region was designated a national park. The national park encompasses only one portion of the region/area called "Grand Canyon". Other parts of the Grand Canyon are contained within the Kaibab National Forest, Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument, the Hualapai Indian Reservation, the Havasupai Indian Reservation and the Navajo Nation. For now, I've reverted back to the quotes. If quotes are inappropriate, perhaps italics? bolding? Or perhaps change the wording to reflect that only part of the region is a national park. I'm not quite sure. --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, the entire Grand Canyon has never been included in the park, so the wording you reverted to is wrong too. I think a more wordy version would have to be developed to properly address your concerns. Something like "much of" or "the majority of" would be called for if we want to pack it all into the initial sentence.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It would be nice if we could develop the article to something more substantial than it is now. The problem is that there's a pretty complete article on the Grand Canyon itself, so the models for FAs for Yellowstone, North Cascades and the like don't translate well without a lot of duplication. Some of what's in Grand Canyon belongs in the park article, such as the account of the South Rim structures - I think the canyon article should focus on the canyon and the park article on the development of the canyon as a tourist destination.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The current wording is very awkward, but arguably correct. Since it's in quotes, "Grand Canyon" (i.e., as it is now) doesn't refer to the entire canyon area, but to a name -- part of the name that was by law given to the national park (Grand Canyon National Park). If it were not in quotes it would require the addition of "the" (no quotes, of course) to refer to the entire canyon. I'd welcome improved wording -- perhaps something like:
 * Grand Canyon National Park was officially designated a national park on February 26, 1919...
 * That's a pretty awkward construction; it would be nice to find something better.
 * Names and definitions in this article drive me a little nutty. Some of the following are discussed higher up in the talk page (quotes included only for clarity): "North Rim" vs. "north rim"; "South Rim" vs. "south rim"; "West Rim" vs. "west rim". Even the definition of "rim", and the number of rims (I say 2; some scientists say 1), are not clear. I spent dozens of hours creating a personal document describing all this and more, but failed in finding reliable sources for most of it.
 * With respect to your other point, I think you're right. Of course I'm too lazy to attempt such a thing! --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)