Talk:Grape/Archive 1

Health "Benefits" of red wine
Please DO NOT put a recommendation for a glass of red wine a day. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4422 That explains why. In short, there is no research that definitevely proves a corrolation between a healthy heart and red wine consumption, in fact it is the opposite. The anti-oxidants that exist in red wine are just as prevalent in grape juice; a MUCH healthier alternative. --74.78.50.203 (talk) 08:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The health benefits attributed to red wine are usually understood to be a combination of the benefits of grape-specific compounds (as in grape juice) AND the benefits of (moderate) alcohol consumption (which also accrue to beer and liquor drinkers). See http: //www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html for a summary, with references. Spark240 (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the oldest variety of grapes for red wine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anaccuratesource (talk • contribs) 16:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Production Map Discussion

 * I am moving this discussion from Image talk:2005grape.PNG, since it seems more relevant to the article than the image. --Bridgecross (talk) 14:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

South Africa is surely one of the most famous producers of quality wines... not to mention table grapes. Why aren't they on the top producers list? The year 2000 saw over 830 million liters of wine being produced in the Cape Wine Route area ALONE. That doesn't even include any of the other 120 wards. 105 566 hectares were used for wine grape cultivars. Once again, that doesn't even account for the table grape vineyards, producing 53.18 million cartons last year! That excludes sultanas for raisin production as well. There's something seriously wrong somewhere... martiens (talk) 14:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I do believe that this is going to need to be edited to reflect California's production of Grapes as well. It is famous for producing a large amount specifically for wine, and I'm surprised that this map doesn't reflect that.

St. Fenix 16:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * California will be included in the map when it declares independence and becomes a republic.Anwar 18:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe there might be confusion because all the "bubbles" for the United States are clustered on the East Coast. This makes it appear that the map depicts grape production in specific regions.  From your response can we assume the map depicts grape production only by nation, and not by specific location?  Perhaps the bubbles could be moved to the center of each nation.  Just a suggestion. --Bridgecross (talk) 20:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Possibly a color coordinated map where all nations producing less than 10 percent are simply gray would be better. I will remove this image (due to the fact it can be very misleading) from the articles that have it linked in one month if this is not corrected.Taboo Tongue (talk) 06:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad you agree; following up. It has been more than a few months.  Issue; poorly constructed map give appearance of regional data when in fact it only contains national data.  I am removing from article. --Bridgecross (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have reverted your vandalism. Replace only if a suitable alternative meeting your specifications is found. Anwar (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I kindly take issue with your characterization of my edit as "vandalism." 1) There was a reasonable discussion here about the edit.  I did not disfigure the article, and there was no malicious intent.  2) If there is a graphic which does not do the job properly, it is better to have no graphic at all.  The article works just fine without a map, and it works even better without a misleading map.  Are you the original creator, and if so, can YOU fix the map so that it is not misleading?  If you believe the map is just fine the way it is, please explain.  --Bridgecross (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully submit that this map is doing more harm than good. And the source needs to be more obvious. Where is the underlying data gathered? jk (talk) 23:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Be my guest. I said my piece, and attempted to remove once.  Bridgecross (talk) 21:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

How come there are grapes growing in northern Russia? I think it's totally misleading if the dots are locted only near the capital. Same thing in the USA. I suggest moving the dots to the areas where the grapes really grow. Flying Saucer (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Nutritional Value Conflict
There is a conflict about the nutritional value for the amount of Manganese in Grapes. Two references indicate the amount of Mn is 0.071 mg per 100 grams of grapes. One is the USDA and another is ]. The USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) is a credible resource and an authority on this subject.

I also moved out the original conflict references below from the edit box(Further discussion can be continued here if necessary) AlexGWU wrote: according to the USDA 0.071 mg is the Mn content Paul144 wrote:incorrect, the value is 0.718 mg which is approx. 36% of the DRI; also see http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=55 which reports the same Mn level -- calculate to 100 g from 92 g sample shown--> —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexGWU (talk • contribs) 02:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * this is the row of data from the USDA for raw American grapes, 100 g:
 * Manganese, Mn | mg | 0.718 | 4 | 0.103 where 0.718 mg = 718 ug. The DRI for Mn is 2 mg so that Mn content = 35.9% DRI. The Mn data agree with the amount per 100 g (calculated) reported by the World's Healthiest Foods site, a different analysis, but an identical % DRI. --Paul144 (talk) 04:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ball Lightning?
According to the wikipedia article on ball lightning, there is no mention of artificially reproducing the phenomenon in a consumer-grade microwave, with grapes or otherwise. This information seems highly questionable and should perhaps be removed... but if the information on this page is actually correct, the wikipedia article on ball ligntning itself should probably be extended.
 * Yeah, is there a citation for this? I'm eating some grapes right now, and I'm tempted to try this out...
 * Yishan 07:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * googling turns up references to creating sparks from microwaved grapes, and a couple of pages refer to it as "ball lightning," but it doesn't seem like there's an authoritative source that refers to it as such. Jeremy Thornhill 19:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is any real justification for adding this to grapes. If there were some well-documented scientific research, then I could see the point, but to claim that ball lightning can be made in a microwave with grapes?  That's stretching reality a little too far.  Besides, technically, all a microwave really does is to aggrevate water molecules, and there would never be enough energy to produce electricity (at least nowhere near that magnitude).
 * I've done this many times, it does not only spark, but will creat floating balls of plasma that go above the grape, I have been also to capture it in the top of a tall glass, it changes color, like the light bulb. I've also been ablt to do so with cheery tomatoes.
 * Utube have a video of a grape producing light/energy in a microwave - don't know if it is lightning though
 * There are numerous youtube videos depicting this grape plasma phenomenon. A simple search will show all you need to know.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.10.243 (talk) 00:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

An incorrect edit, but...
The last edit removes the word berries, and as an edit summary states "Grapes aren't berries." This is incorrect, grapes ARE berries, at least botanically speaking. However, the usage in this case was redundant and the article actually reads better without it, so I hate to put it back. On the other hand, I don't really like leaving an incorrect statement in the Edit History. What's Wikipedia protocol on this sort of thing?Elakazal 06:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Grape skins
I came here hoping to find information about any nutrients in grape skins. Anyone know anything? Specifically about eating them, not drinking it indirectly from red wines.

Im allergic to grape skins so I have a special machine that peels the skins off for me. Does that take out most of the nutrients?


 * As with most fruit (and vegetables), many of the vitamins and minerals (and especially fiber) that can be found in these substances reside in the skins/peels. There have been claims that the potato skin is far more nutritious for you than the starchy innard.  Be that as it may, grapes do have a lot of bulk and substance inside that skin.  Plus, it is so darn thin, I doubt you would really be removing enough of the good stuff to really make much difference.  Ask any doctor, though, and chances are they would argue against juicing over simply eating the fruit whole.  But, I wouldn't sweat the grape peels, though.  (Allergy to grape skins?  Strange.  Sorry about that.  Could that maybe be more related to the chemicals that so many commercial farmers use these days, or is it really a substance in the skin?)

I suppose the article could do with expanding a little here. The skins contain all of the tannin in the grape and give most of the colour to the juice / wine. They contain polyphenols, antioxidants and basically most of the (claimed) health benefits provided by grapes come from the skins, rather than the pulp. mikaultalk 23:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Production reference
Although I can imagine believing that "grapes constitute approximately 50% of all fruit grown in the world", it remains a very surprising fact, and deserves a reference. I was unable to find one (in about two minutes of half-hearted googling). Pekinensis 22:59, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the claim. &mdash; Pekinensis 16:16, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/foodconsumption/FoodAvailQueriable.aspx#midForm, in 2003 Americans consumed 18.4 lbs of grapes (per capita), out of a total 274.9 lbs of fruit (104.9 lbs citrus + 170.0 lbs non-citrus). So in rough numbers, grapes made up about 6.7% of the total amount of fruit consumed (in the US; per capita; measured by weight; in 2003). Now the US isn't a perfect gauge for world fruit consumption, but it certainly casts doubt on that stat! &mdash; RPT

You might what to put the claim back in. Grape are indeed probably the largest fruit crop grown in the world. The vast majority of grapes are grown for wine production and included in this is that for distillation and the production of gross ethanol. As you will note only a small proportion of grapes are used as fresh fruit. It is estimated that in 2004 alone, approximately 76.5 million hectalitres of wine was produced. adam

The FAO places grapes second in production...last year 66 million metric tons of grapes were produced. Compare that to 71 million for banana (and I believe this refers only to the 15-20% of bananas that are traded commercially, the rest being grown as a subsistence crop). So grape is big, but its not the biggest and it's not half.Elakazal 01:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Grapes are juicy, smooth berries that grow on a woody vine. They are used to make red and white wine. They grow in clusters of 6 to 300 berries, can be black purple red and white. luz

The table showing area dedicated to wine-making is not correct. Turkey is listed 4th, but while they may be the 4th largest producer of grapes, they do not use much of that for wine (as noted here). I couldn't find a reference for where those numbers come from either... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.163.209 (talk) 19:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Wild grapes
I added a pic of what I believe are wild red grapes, altho I am no expert. A more knowledgeable person might take a close look. --Tysto 00:51, 2005 September 5 (UTC)

The leaves look wrong and the cluster doesn't appear dense enough. Look under Vitis riparia for an example of the proper leaves. Dermar130 1:02, 2005 October 3


 * I removed the image, theese are perhaps elderberries but pretty sure not grapes -- Schusch 21:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Aussie slang
Should we add something about how grapes are australian slang for a woman with a big vagina?


 * I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say... no. Interesting factoid, though.

Hmmm never heard that one before and im from australia WesternAustralia 11:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Medical Claims for Grape Seed Extract
Are there any references for all these medical claims for grape seeds? Can we trim these to things that have been shown to be true and are evidence based? I suspect that grape seeds are good, or at least not bad for people. But, for example, the citation of "reducing cellulite" seems especially suspect since "cellulite" is a fashion term introduced by Vogue Magazine in the US that means "cottage cheese looking" subcutaneous fat. These sound like the kinds of claims made by dietary supplement makers that their supplements "support" the body in some specific way but do not have to be evaluated in any rigorous way.

Perhaps some of these claims have been evaluated, if so can we leave those, put proper citations in and get rid of the claims that have not been proven? It seems like a large list of wonder cures proven by "recent studies." Perhaps these "recent studies" can be cited so people can evaluate their claims for themselves.

Sbfisher 03:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Resveratrol
There appears to almost be an additional article on resveratrol tacked onto the end of this article. Elakazal
 * I've chopped that down a bit, since it was mostly redundant with resveratrol. -- Beland 19:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Taxobox?!
As grapes are not a taxon, I propose removal of the taxobox. --Eleassar my talk 13:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree, but I would stipulate that the Vitis article be started (more than a redirect) per the flora naming convention. WP:PLANTS prefers that cultivated or agriculturally important species have two articles--one to describe the cultivation, use as a food or crop, and the other to describe species, taxonomy, botanical history, etc. Until that article is created, though, I would keep the taxobox as the article does talk a bit about the botanical aspect, especially with the section on species. --Rkitko (talk) 05:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Vitis article exists and it's good enough. The genus is mentioned in the present article, and grapes are mentioned in the Vitis article. I have removed the taxobox, and added a link to the genus article where appropriate. Dysmorodrepanis 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Harmful to Dogs?
Should we mention that grapes are harmful to some animals, namely dogs? Source --Garfunkle20 22:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Right now there is just something in the see also section that links to Grape and raisin toxicity in dogs. It can also be put in the article, to give it more visibility, if you want.  --Joelmills 23:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

History of grape cultivation
The article lacks any mention, let alone a section, on the grape's position —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Meco (talk • contribs) 20:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Grape v blackcurrant
Not sure whether this is worth mentioning, but it's in the blackcurrant article, so... there's a strong Transatlantic divide when it comes to these flavours in sweet foods. The blackcurrant and Ribena articles seem to indicate that there are two reasons for this:

1) Blackcurrant cultivation was banned in the US for many years, and remains so in some states, because of a disease that affects timber. Hence, although the fruit was fairly popular in the US up until about 1900, it's far rarer now.

2) In the UK, blackcurrants were among the few easily-obtainable fruits during WW2, and the government distributed blackcurrant syrup/cordial to the nation's children to maintain Vitamin C intake. Hence the British penchant for blackcurrant flavour.

The divide remains pretty well-defined: for example, purple Skittles or Starburst sweets are blackcurrant-flavour in the UK; grape flavour would seem very odd to us. Equally, blackcurrant jam/jelly is one of the most popular flavours, whereas the grape equivalent screams "American food" to us. And so on. 86.132.137.36 22:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting, but I don't see the link with the grape article, other than where the blackcurrant article uses "unlike" and "instead." Ergo, in my opinion, a matter not for mentioning in the grape article.
 * Iterator12n  Talk  00:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * people please!!!! I'm a lazy botany student and I'm trying to do this projecto on grapes so stop confusing me!!!
 * —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.227.222.219 (talk • contribs).

Seedlessness POV
The Statement: "Seedlessness is a highly desirable subjective quality in table grape selection" and associated language is non-neuteral and reflects a subjective opinion; it has no buisiness being in an encyclopedia article. It should be promptly removed and/or replaced with more neutral factual language. Any suggestions welcome. Thanks. WaynaQhapaq 00:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The important thing here is "in table grape SELECTION". The statement refers to the process of grape breeding and is not a statement of opinion on the qualities of grapes. Any one who has worked breeding table grapes would agree that seedlessness is virtually always among the highest priorities. This has not always been the case in Europe, where many seeded grapes remain popular, but even there table grape breeding programs emphasize seedlessness, and I think it fairly unlikely that many seeded varieties will be released by European programs in the future. In the U.S., no commercially successful seeded varieties have been released in decades. Elakazal 03:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Another problem with the POV on seeds is the fact that most people will swallow the seeds whole, and they won't digest, and thus have no health effect whatsoever. 88.159.74.54 (talk) 12:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Veraison merge?
Support the merge (though I happened just across it and didn't propose it). The "Veraison" text would fit nicely in the "Description" section, adding a bit of flavor too. Dysmorodrepanis 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Dried vine fruit merge
Came across this previously orphan article, which is little more than a definition. I could see that it could be used as the basis for the consolidation of raisin, sultana etc and as such would make quite a good article - but otherwise should just be merged in here. What do people reckon? I know that it's very British to even split things up into sultanas etc in the first place, but since we have that division, it might make sense to look at the subject as a whole. FlagSteward 11:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Having looked at most of the relevant articles, I've come to the conclusion that words in this area can mean so many different things to different people, that a more WP:CSB approach is needed, and that most of the dried grapes should end up at dried vine fruit. Possibly the only exception might be raisin - but in some ways that's the most ambiguous, perhaps that article should be split between dried vine fruit and California raisin. 12:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Manganese content in grape's nutritionalvalue template
A fellow Wikipedian told me that there are sources that specify a very high level of manganese content in grapes, and gave me this page as an example where if you follow the in-depth information link there it navigates you to another page where it says that "grapes" (does not specify variety) contain "0.66 mg" (33% daily value) of manganese. In that page, the nutrient data source is described as "Food Processor for Windows, Version 7.60, by ESHA Research in Salem, Oregon, USA". The 0.66 mg value is quite high when compared to the value we currently include in our Wikipedia article (Grape), on the nutritionalvalue template: we currently say that "grapes" (of "red or green" variety) contain "0.071 mg" (4% daily value) of manganese. Our data source is given as the USDA Nutrient Database, where if you go there and type "grape" and choose the "Grapes, red or green (European type, such as Thompson seedless), raw" food type (presumably the same described in our article) you can see that manganese content is also given as "0.071" mg, the same we include in our article. While our article is currently correct (it says variety and source, and the source specifies the same value for the same variety), perhaps we should note somewhere in the article the fact that there are other sources that specify a much higher value for manganese. However, before we do this, we should research to see whether the page citing the 0.66 mg value is in error, whether there are other references citing similar values, or whether it is a specific grape variety having this high manganese content. Your help in finding out which variety has so much manganese and your input in whether it is a fact that should be noted in the article is greatly welcome:) NerdyNSK (talk) 12:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Distribution and Production?
The table in this section seems to indicate that Turkey and Iran are the states with the fourth and sixth largest areas of land devoted to wine production in the world. I know little about wine, and am unfamiliar with Turkey, but in Iran at least I have not encountered wine production as such (afaik it's almost entirely illegal). Grapes, yes (and dried for export). Wine, no. Nor have I ever heard of either a Turkish or Iranian wine. Should this be a table of grape production by area?

I note that we have an article on Turkish wine, and List of wine producing countries which ranks Turkey 41st out of 69 (by quantity) – not what you would expect of the fourth largest wine growing area. Iran does not appear in that list at all, in spite of being sixth in this table.

n.b. this section also lacks citations. Anihl (talk) 13:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like good information. You should edit the table and discussion accordingly. Thanks. --Paul144 (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm. As I say, I know little (or nothing) about wine, or wine production.  And it's not clear where the information in the table comes from.  However, FAOSTAT estimates Iran's grape producing area in 2007 at 315,000 hectares (3,150km2), substantially different from the table's 2,860km2.  (http://faostat.fao.org/site/567/DesktopDefault.aspx?PageID=567#ancor).  (Possibly the table's figures would benefit from dates too...)  However, FAOSTAT does not appear (http://faostat.fao.org/site/636/DesktopDefault.aspx?PageID=636#ancor) to have figures for Iranian Wine production (which I don't think is surprising).  Even if it did, it lists wine production in tonnes rather than producing area, so it doesn't help with the table.  Perhaps someone who knows something about the topic would be in a better position to resolve this issue... Anihl (talk) 01:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Grape 'Cowardice'? ... a virus with a Latin name ending in yellowbelli? Seriously! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.129.100 (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Could we have something on the soil, climate etc necessary to grow grapes? m.e. (talk) 10:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

History
The history section goes from the ancient Phoenicians directly to California with only a passing mention of Europe/North Africa? Can someone please fill in the history section to make it reflect the actual historical timeframe of grape cultivation. The article reads like we had grapes back in Egypt, then nothing happened for thousands of years, then California got grapes. One imagines European history would have been greatly impoverished by such a lack of grapes. Please help this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.207.198.13 (talk) 06:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Grape originates from Persia
In the Indian-Iranian relations page, it states "The grape, introduced from Persia with the almond and walnut, was cultivated in the Hindukush and western Himalayas"

Consistency across wikipedia would be good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 09:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Consistency is nice but reliable sources is a requirement! The claim that the grape (probably referring to the vine if it lasted, or more specifically Vitis vinifera) was introduced into India from Persia, even if true, does not automatically mean that it orginiated in Persia. The source used for the statement in India–Iran relations is not a scholarly work in viticulture or paleobotany so it carries little weight. While the Caucasus region is typically seen as the origin of viticulture (with a couple of countries making inconsistent claims that they rather than their neighbours are the real "ground zero"), this refers to the human activity of cultivating the vine for harvesting grapes; the geographical origin of the genus Vitis is another issue altogether. Tomas e (talk) 12:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Jeremy Patton
Why does it say Jeremy Patton's red and green grapes on the right infobox? I suspect vandalism, but it's been there since early feberuary, so i don't know if it was an accepted change for whatever purpose. --User:Atanamir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.160.175 (talk) 08:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Grape varieties by region (consumption)
I'd be really interested to see a break-down of which varieties are most popular as table grapes and juice in different countries/regions. For example, French grape juice tastes completely different to American grape juice, which is made from Concord grapes. I assume it's made from a different variety? Is this the sort of thing that belongs here? 86.164.69.239 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

File:Wine grape diagram en.svg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Wine grape diagram en.svg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 12, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-06-12. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 23:42, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Spanish missions
The present version of the article contains the following sentence: "The first Old World Vitis vinifera purple grapes were cultivated in California, where Spain had established a series of missions near the coast to supply their ships with oranges to prevent scurvy and convert natives." There are a few problems with this statement:

1. There is no citation supporting the assertion that the first Vitis vinifera were grown in California, nor that they were grown at the Spanish missions;

2. Most of the California missions are too far inland to be of any value as supply depots for naval ships;

3. Most of the missions were established by a priest, Fr. Junipero Serra, who is not known to have had any mandate from the Spanish navy;

4. Fr. Serra began founding the California missions in 1769. James Lind demonstrated that limes could prevent scurvy in 1747, but his work was ignored by the Royal Navy until the 1790s. There is no evidence that the Spanish navy understood the benefits of citrus fruits before then;

5. Although the primary purpose of the missions was religious, this is not relevant to the article;

6. There is no citation supporting the assertion that the missions were intended to act as supply depots.

In view of points 2-5, I am removing the second part of the sentence, and adding a citation warning to the first part.

Mpa (talk) 07:08, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Potential references
Moved from the Further reading section: --Ronz (talk) 17:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Xia, E.-Q. et al. “Biological Activities of Polyphenols from Grapes”, International Journal of Molecular Sciences (2010),11(2):622-646.
 * Dohadwala, M.M. / Vita, J.A. “Grapes and Cardiovascular Disease”, Journal of Nutrition (2009),139(9):1788S-1793S.

I see Georgian Propaganda Morons made it here too
"Georgia is the birthplace of wine" - Bulls**t. Besides that 'Georgia' is undefined in ancient history, there are sources that indicate grape cultivation, raisins and also wine are indigenous to the Armenian Highland, of which southern MODERN DAY Georgia has been a part of in the Armenian kingdom of Urartu. I don't have the time to find all sources, but I know they exist. And if you read that cited source, that writer, probably hired by a Georgian institution claims wine being "born in Georgia" while also including a minuscule reference to 'Armenia' - and for obvious reasons - to make the propaganda "technically" correct. Turks, Azeris, and Georgians - all surrounding Armenia, and claiming every aspect of her culture using (ABUSING) wikipedia. 99.7.123.116 (talk) 23:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Grapes in Muslim Holy Quraan
The word(s) "grapes" appears 8 time(s) in 8 verse(s) in Quraan

(1) And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.

( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #99)

(2) Then there will come after that a year in which people shall have rain and in which they shall press (grapes).

( سورة يوسف , Yusuf, Chapter #12, Verse #49)

(3) And in the earth there are tracts side by side and gardens of grapes and corn and palm trees having one root and (others) having distinct roots-- they are watered with one water, and We make some of them excel others in fruit; most surely there are signs in this for a people who understand.

( سورة الرعد , Ar-Rad, Chapter #13, Verse #4)

(4) He causes to grow for you thereby herbage, and the olives, and the palm trees, and the grapes, and of all the fruits; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect.

( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #11)

(5) And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #67)

(6) Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out.

( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #91)

(7) Then We cause to grow thereby gardens of palm trees and grapes for you; you have in them many fruits and from them do you eat;

( سورة المؤمنون , Al-Mumenoon, Chapter #23, Verse #19)

(8) And grapes and clover,

( سورة عبس , Abasa, Chapter #80, Verse #28)

Hafeezjaan (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2015
Here is a reference saying that seedless grapes are the overwhelming majority of table grape plantings.

Bgent16 (talk) 02:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but the reference you pointed out was a copy of the Wikipedia article on grapes. There's no point to citing ourselves as that wouldn't prove that what we are saying is accurate. Altamel (talk) 06:29, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Is there something present in green grapes absent in most red grapes [at least the varieties in America]?
Because green grapes make me sick, while red grapes do not. I can see that there are pigments present in red grapes absent in green grapes, but that wouldn't explain my reaction. 74.96.172.110 (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Repetitive use of "Georgia" in the History section.
It's being stated redundantly that modern grape cultivars originated in Georgia.Landroo (talk) 18:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've edited the section to remove redundancy. Some claims made there are still not properly supported; it looks as if there has been some nationalist rivalry in claiming priority. The molecular analyses I've found don't support the claim re Georgia as opposed to the region in general. Thus the source given in the article at [1] says "archaeological and historical evidence suggest that primo-domestication occurred in the Near-East. The earliest evidence of wine production was found in Iran at the Hajji Firuz Tepe site in the northern zagros mountains circa 7400–7000 BP ... Seeds of domesticated grapes dated from ∼8000 BP were also found in Georgia and in Turkey." Peter coxhead (talk) 22:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2016
Shiraz capital of Pars province and the city of Archeminide Emperors which from 800 BC down to 600 AD we have plenty of wine cups of Gold and silver and many more but the article intentionally states that in 900 AD shiraz wine was good.

212.247.140.231 (talk) 07:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC) History of Civilization by Lord Nicholsson
 * Please be clear with what you want changed and put it in a "Change X to Y" format. --QEDK ( T &#9749;  C ) 19:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Botanical Information inset
The "grapes" entry does not have an inset that lists the order, family, genus, etc. I have come to rely on these standard Wikipedia insets on the top right-hand side of the page to quickly find the FAMILY that a plant belongs to.Yuezrnaem (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
 * it doesn't have a taxobox (what you call and "inset") because cultivated grapes (which is what the article is really about) don't correspond to a scientifically recognized taxon: they aren't the fruit of a single species, nor are they the fruit of the whole of the genus Vitus. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:15, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

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Mention of grape culture in South America
I just noticed in the "History" section there is mention of grape cultivation coming to North American but not South America. South America is obviously a major wine producer, etc.

Tim Rose (talk) 15:14, 19 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The tables indicate that Argentina and Chile are major players. Why don't you work up a sentence or two? Please include reliable sources. Rivertorch   FIRE WATER   15:30, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Error in section "History"
The article presently reads, " Yeast, one of the earliest domesticated microorganisms, occurs naturally on the skins of grapes, leading to the discovery of alcoholic drinks such as wine."

However, the wikipedia article for beer states that beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage. These claims apparently contradict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.57.134 (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't see any contradiction. Beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage, dating from at least 5000 years ago, possibly as far back as 9500 BC, according to the Beer article. According to the Yeast article, archaeologists digging in Egyptian ruins found early grinding stones and baking chambers for yeast-raised bread, as well as drawings of 4000-year-old bakeries and breweries. Also, yeast does indeed occur naturally on the skins of grapes. The inference here is that brewing beer predates the cultivation of yeast by 1000~7500 years, and it wasn't until the 18th century that brewers yeasts were identified. In other words, early Neolithic people would have brewed beer with endogenous "wild yeast".
 * The wording of the sentence you quoted isn't great, I'll give you that, but this is an article about grapes, and wine is made with grapes, so although "alcoholic drinks such as wine" may include beer it isn't really worth mentioning beer here. Perhaps someone else will think of a better way to word that part.  nagual  design   01:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)


 * ...Reading a little of History of wine I think the phrase "alcoholic drinks such as wine" probably means grape-based beverages such as those produced in China and other places, which included rice or other fruits.  nagual  design   01:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Why on earth is there no mention of historic and known blights and blighters to effect grapes?
Reckon the lack thereof is a conspiracy by the landowning NWO elites. Think about it sheeple - how comes we have never known or been told of diseases and conditions to effect winegrowing and other viticulture? Haps grapes are diebackfast and suchlike? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.66.44 (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)


 * You have of point there. I'll get the tin foil immediately. nagualdesign 18:48, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Again: Why on earth is there no mention of historic and known blights and blighters to effect grapes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.36.30 (talk) 03:05, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

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McGovern as a Source and Inaccurate History About "Georgia"
In the source cited about "Georgia" in the history section, the source states: "It has long been claimed that the earliest ‘wine culture’ in the world emerged in the mountainous regions of Transcaucasia — modern Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan — during the Neolithic period (c.8500—4000 BC)". There are many points to be made here which I propose will help make a more accurate reflection of the history of grape cultivation (viticulture). Note: 'modern' Georgia. Thus it is incorrect to state as it does in this article: "The earliest archeological evidence for a dominant position of wine-making in human culture dates from 8,000 years ago in Georgia." No it doesn't. Not even the "source" claims that as you can read in the passage, because Georgia never existed in history, and neither did Azerbaijan, unlike Armenia which was an established and very large nation in ancient times. In fact, it is established history that grapes and winemaking have come out of Armenia because: in ancient times the Armenian kingdom of Urartu (Ararat) stretched into Georgia. Second, Azerbaijan and Turkey are not relevant either since the Turkish culture is a newcomer into the south Caucasus and Asia Minor. Third, ancient Greek writers (such as Herodotus and Strabo) confirmed their introduction to wine in ancient Armenia. Fourth, in Iran ancient stone depictions state that when Armenians came to pay tribute, they brought vessels of wines. All of these points can be verified. No where in historical writings have "Georgians" been mentioned, nor "Georgia" that I am aware of in regards to winemaking. This means that a source like Mcgovern's must be treated carefully if we want to be truthful and accurate. Of course, wikipedia editors with biased sentiments will claim that this is "nationalism". Since I do not wish to engage in edit wars here at the moment, at least can we agree to reword the passage to make it more accurate and less biased? 2602:306:3077:A580:491D:33BE:7A52:7C05 (talk) 21:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

British grape production
According to the Herald, there are currently 22 square kilometres of vineyards in the United Kingdom, expected to increase to 30 square kilometres by 2020. This is two orders of magnitude less than the top 10 countries listed in the table. Nevertheless, it may be informative to include this fact, given that it is a Wikipedia article for English-speaking readers. For the same reason, there should be more detail on vine-growing regions in other English-speaking areas such as North America, Australia, South Africa etc. Opinions? 81.131.172.38 (talk) 15:50, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2018
99.173.146.87 (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2018 (UTC) Citric Acid
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2020
Please change

In some circumstances, a priest may obtain special permission to use grape juice for the consecration; however, this is extremely rare and typically requires sufficient impetus to warrant such a dispensation, such as personal health of the priest.

to

In some circumstances, a priest may obtain special permission to use grape juice for the consecration; however, this is extremely rare and typically requires sufficient impetus to warrant such a dispensation, such as personal health of the priest. Gamaliele (talk) 23:33, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

❌: Respectfully, this seems a minor issue for an encyclopedia, WP:UNDUE, so I'm disinclined to add this edit. The source you provided is a 1995 letter, which is not a WP:RS source. Further, such content would be more appropriate for the grape juice article where there is a section on catholicism. --Zefr (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Grape leaves
Why no discussion of grape leaves? Not even a link to Grape leaves.

2603:8001:3846:2D00:E17A:4D89:5E08:BD27 (talk) 02:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2021
In the section, there is a typo that says "in the bitble." instead of "in the bible." Mknox2022 (talk) 12:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * All set, thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:22, 19 March 2021 (UTC)