Talk:Graz/Archive 1

Agglomeration numbers dispute about Graz
I tend to use data for Graz City + the surrounding Graz-Umgebung (County) like www.statistik.at (NUTS-Regions) is using it. Therefore the latest available data is 390.000 inhabitants. Source: Municipial Register with data for 1.1.2006 (http://www.statistik.at/neuerscheinungen/download/2006/gem2006_www.pdf) --The Pollster 17:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

German agglomeration site: search agglomeration in english and then just change language to german...there you will see the 2001 figures for austrian agglomerations. graz: 290,000. Immediate suburbs: Seiersberg, Gratkorn, Feldkirchen, Goessendorf, Kalsdorf etc So if you add the population growth since 2001 to the 2001 figure you get ~320,000. I agree that your number fits the definition of agglomeration better but all the austrian city sites use these 2001 figures...(Eastendboy 13:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC))

Population
On the german site was a long discussion about the population in Graz. The result of this discussion was that they used the data from http://www.statistik.at/blickgem/vz1/g60101.pdf, because this is the official data, that should be used on wikipedia. Not counted are in this statistik the people who have their second domicile in graz.

http://www.graz.at/cms/beitrag/10034466/606066/ - Need it anymore official for you Sir ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.143.101.223 (talk) 01:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Trivia
A news article about Graz and Arnold Szwarzneger in case anybody ever creates a Trivia section. the Age newspaper link (Previous unsigned comment by 136.153.2.2)

Transport
if somebody has access to the information, could the please cerate a transport section. Something about Graz airport, (its locations/proximity in relation to teh city), information about rail and road links to other parts of Austria/Europe, and information about local transport - are there buses? trams? etc? (Previous unsigned comment by 136.153.2.2)

Transport section is added now!

Graz Montclair, New Jersey
Why does the article say Graz and Montclair, New Jersey are sister city? Advice

Because they are, I think. Check out this article: http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2003/510328.shtml

Graz History Slovenians
"Later a small castle was built here by the Slovenians, which in time became a heavily defended fortification."

In this sentence isn't slavic population better because (as mentioned in the German language version the information is given that the name "Slowenen" English "Slovenians" was first mentioned in documents in the 15th century). But the castle was built ealier than 1128. I will change Slovenians to slavic population because this is anyway correct. Any discussion about that welcome.


 * No, "Slavic population" is not better. Slovenians existed already in the 6th century in the region. The Germanic population that later moved in went to great efforts to deny Slovenians having any identity of their own at all.

"grad" means castle and was an already used word in the Old Church Slavonic (afterwards from this language many slavic languages developed). "grad" means in Slovene and Croatian castle; "hrad" means castle in Czech and Slovak - note the similarity of the words. One point is for sure the word Graz originated from the word "grad", which agrees with the settlement of the slavs in this area. If Slovens founded a settlement or small castle in the Graz area is not for sure because there are no documents or records that prove that and the word "gradec" is not a good proof for that.


 * What do the Slovens have any thing to do with this? We are talking about Slovenians (aka Slovenes).
 * Grad can mean a dozen things in Croatian but most commonly refers to a place. Grad is the definitive word for castle in Slovenian. Slovenians populated the region already in the 6th century, BEFORE the castle was built. No known other Slavic people did, EVER. End of story. BT2 23:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Can I suggest that the editors involved here cite some sources rather than engaging in an edit war? Cheers --Pak21 10:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Population development
Sources for above can be found on the German language Graz discussion page... I think the secondary residency number is worth mentioning as it is large for a town the size of Graz. wolfi (85.124.40.37 16:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Agreed in principle; apologies for the earlier revert as I mistook what you were doing. However, do we have an external source for those numbers at all? Wikipedia should not be used as a source for Wikipedia. Also, some style points: en.wikipedia uses English punctuation, so please use a comma as the thousands separator and solitary years should not be linked. Cheers --Pak21 16:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * thanks for info... source for secondary residence figures is: www.rechnungshof.at/Berichte/Steiermark/Steiermark_2006_02/Steiermark_2006_02.pdf (page 8. Paragraph 3.3) cheers wolfi (85.124.40.37 20:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Thanks. I've added a reference to the article, but somebody needs to fix up my bad understanding of the German... Cheers --Pak21 10:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Tourist brochure?
I'm a bit concerned that this article is becoming a tourist brochure rather than something found in an enclycopaedia. Do sites 40 km away really need to be mentioned? Garethhamilton 21:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The German Graz site has mentioned these places. ( I did not write the German bits concerned by the way...)The "Freilichtmuseum" is just 15 kilometres from the centre of Graz the other sites are further away but within 40km from Graz. Most people from abroad don`t go there directly, they stay in Graz and visit these sites through daytrips from Graz. (Eastendboy 13:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC))

Scale Units
As this is the English Wikipedia shouldn't we change the scale units from Metric to Imperial? --Christoph.Kueberl 15:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Please read the Manual of Style: "If for some reason the choice of units is arbitrary, choose SI units as the main unit, with other units in parentheses." --Pak21 15:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Strongest Fortress?
"The fortress of Graz is seen as the strongest fortress ever built" <--- source? lomis 21:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * yes! it was never stormed or taken. Napoleon forced the people of graz to give in by threaten to destroy vienna (!) if graz won't give up. After being let in he blew up allmost the whole fortress. the citizens of graz payed a lot of money to save the clocktower and the belltower "Liesl", another smaller clocktower. 212.183.65.252 (talk) 21:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC) de:CaptPicard

agglomeration
My source for the Agg. is taking the graz population figures from the german "Agglomeration" site which are from 2001 and adding the population growth from Graz and the immediate suburbs to the figure from 2001... (Eastendboy 17:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC))


 * I hope I´ll have no problems with following your Austrian sources, because I´m from Austria myself ;-) Question 1: What do you mean by "German Agglomeration site" ? Question 2: What towns/cities next to Graz do you consider "immediate suburbs" ? As I wrote above, Statistik Austria and me consider the whole county (Graz-Umgebung) surrounding the city of Graz as some kind of suburb. Most people in Graz-Umgebung are commuting to the city every day for work/school/study, therefore I´d say the whole county should be included into the agglomeration number. As for the numbers: City of Graz had about 250.000 inhabitants in the end of 2006. Graz-Umgebung-County had about 140.000 Therefore my number of 390.000 for Graz-Agglomeration --The Pollster 18:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"slovenians"
Do not raise notions where there are none. The Alpine Slavs of that time are not called Slovenians anywhere; they can't be, since they didn't call themselves by that name -- and if they did we could argue about it till doomsday, because "sloven"/"slaven" is the general name for "Slav". Since Graz is in Austria, the polite thing to do is to call them Slavs. --VKokielov 19:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * raise or not :) well, first of all: sorry my not knowin "Alpine Slavs" (and thanx for the britannica-explanation. in austria we are used to know that "the styrians" (beside some other austrian areas) are a "mix" out of Bavarii ("Bajuwaren" in german) and slavs ("Slawen" in german). and ofcorse the Slavs are ancestors of the slovens (as they are mine); this "Alpine Slavs" ... as a "special kind of Slavs" "just for slovenians" ... dont know this. however, this etymological, i think this is not "sure". but please: whats about this czech term? i am out of graz, my ancestors are from Untersteiermark (Spodnja Štajerska) AND from Bohemian, but why should there be some chzech? i removed that again. thanx, cu, Enlarge 14:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Britannica on Alpine Slavs
--VKokielov 13:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

proto-slavic vs. slovenian
I would like to contest the use of the term proto-slavic as the etymological source of the name graz. The reason is that proto-slavic is used to refer to the common slavic language before other slavic languages separated and the freising monuments (a script in old Slovenian for eclesiastical use) show that already in the 10th century when they were written the language has already separated from the common slavic language and had to have been separated at least a century before. Therefore unless Graz was founded before the 9th century i would suggest proto-slavic be replaced by either proto-slovenian, old slovenian or simply slovenian. I will replace it with Slovenian untill further discussion. 153.5.62.201 19:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's pointless to speak of "Slovene" in the 9th century dude, in that time there was still Proto-West-South-Slavic. Toponyms gradac, gradec are very widespread on South Slavdom. Slavs, upon arrival, just used the most common word for town which in turn became the name of the city when the Slavicized area was subsequently Germanicised. Freising Fragments are written on en extinct Pannonian dialect that is not ancestral to any extant Slovene dialect AFAIK (just like Mycenaean Greek is not ancestral to any later Ancient Greek dialect, though being the earliest attested). Pushing the "Slovene" etymology in the lead is just PoV Slovene nationalism. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Proximity to Italy
The Geography section in the article would be enhanced if it had information on how far Graz is from the Italian border.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 02:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? --Eleassar my talk 09:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)