Talk:Greek football clubs in European competitions

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European Cup/UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup/Europa League presented as one competition (one board) or not (separate boards)
I think that they are the same competition. They are presented as one in the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League articles. Real Madrid has 15 titles in total. That means competition is the same and should be presented as one. Anyone who disagrees can write down his own pov. Thank youAbudabanas (talk) 09:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * They are different, one is simply a continuation of the other, but you solved the issue yourself and correctly in the end. But there is also the other issue with the separate table of the top 4 clubs, the goals they have scored that are not seen anywhere else. It's a documented plugin and I don't see what the problem is. All I understand is that you consider the article your own and don't let anyone else write it. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:D19D:6726:41EB:394 (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The competition is the same, a continuation as you wrote. They must be included in the same table. They are not different competitions so that we divide them into 2 boards. This could be confusing. If you type UEFA Cup on search bar it will direct you to UEL page. Because they are the same. It is shown in the table (exactly as it is shown in the UCL and UEL articles) when those competitions changed name. As for the top 4 clubs, the article is for all Greek clubs who participated in European competitions. If you like to add goals scored/conceded I suggest you do that for all of them. The first board shows the apps/results for all 20 teams. The second shows the all-time contribution of points for the country ranking (I did not add Ionikos, the source swissfootballdata included Ionikos because they played in Europe, Lamia for example have not). Why should we make a top 4 board for goals? Expand the first one or make a third with all teams so that they are all represented equally. Abudabanas (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The competition is not the same, just as you are not the same as your father, just his successor. Finally, this issue is resolved, so we don't need to discuss it anymore.
 * On to the other topic now. There is the table with the 4 teams. I am not obliged to make for the others. The important is always emphasized. Like the marches in the quarter-finals and not in the round of 16, which you also removed. And just to see how wrong you are, a run to the last 16 of the Champions League is more important and more difficult than a run to the final of the European Cup. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:78D0:96E2:FD7F:25FD (talk) 15:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Through the years, the competition changed. Many times. Of course it is way more difficult what Panathinaikos did in 2001-02 for example when they qualified from two Group stages, if you compare it with what AEK Athens did in 1969 when they simply qualified from two rounds. The fact is that the competition is the same though. And they both reached the quarter-finals of the same competition. They are both quarter-finalists and they can both add it as an honour even if it looks unfair for someone because surely Panathinaikos had a way more difficult task. Real Madrid has 15 CL trophies. They do not divide them in 6 European Cups and 9 CL. And it does not matter if the first 5-6 titles were claimed in a more easy fashion. They have 15 titles in total. We are talking about distinctions, aren't we? Last 8 vs last 16. I do not consider that when you reach the last 16 of any competition that you distinguished yourself. I mean it is you and 15 others. This can be shown by multiple things: i) Vocabulary, the word itself. You played a quarter-FINAL, you are a quarter-finalist. No such word exists for Round of 16. ii) Football: UEFA draw procedures. When teams reach the quarter-finals of all UEFA competitions, it is considered by UEFA an achievement. And the last 8 teams are treated equally. No country restrictions and no seedings on the quarter-finals draw. This does not happen in the Round of 16. iii) Olympiacos won the Conference League this year. Without thinking at all, I could name you very fast the most of the last 8 teams if not all of them. It would be difficult for anyone I think, to name the most of the last 16 teams. He would probably search in Wiki or Google to do that. I also think that when we as a country have a team that actually won a European trophy, to consider a Round of 16 participation as a distiction, it is like we degrade the whole thing, about when we should believe that an achievement is worth mentioning. iv) Other sports: You will find a lot of Final-4 or Final-8 tournaments in Basketball, Volleyball and other team sports. You will not find a Final-16 tournament. Eight teams qualify for the NBA Playoffs from the East and eight from the West. Eight runners compete in an athletics final, eight swimmers compete in aquatics final. You will find number 8 everywhere in sports. I mean it's everywhere. It is a distinction. An achievement. When it is yourself and 15 others, it is surely not the same thing. Abudabanas (talk) 16:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly. For the same reason, the table you removed and didn't mention at all in your answer should stay because it refers to the teams that have more success and not the ones that have nothing to show. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:69CA:59EF:435:E294 (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Table of the top 4 Greek teams in the European cups
There was a board that a user removed. The table was this:

It contains the total performances of the first 4 Greek teams in the European cups (appearances, wins, losses, goals, trophies). These are not found elsewhere in the entry. Please give your opinion if it should be documented or not. Of course it can be enriched in the future.

I propose to keep it. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:648A:DE79:B730:982 (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * This table shows apps, games, wins, draws, defeats which are already clearly shown in the first board of the article for all Greek clubs. Points? Like they were in a league or something? The all-time contribution of points for the country ranking is shown in the second board of the article. Titles? Olympiacos title is mentioned all over the article (intro, gold background on the distictions section, gold background and image trophy on the results section) and it is not like we have a ton of titles to put on the table. The only thing that this table includes that it is not already mentioned is total goals for/goals against of the top 4 clubs. This is an article for all Greek football clubs who participated in European competitions. Expand the first table adding gf/ga for all 20 teams so that all of them are represented equally. Abudabanas (talk) 06:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Simply put, you disagree. Okay. Let's wait what other users have to say. For now you have by force imposed your point, since the painting has been there for a long time. It didn't bother you then. It seems that the title of Olympiakos bothered you, as I understand from your words. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:1897:BB81:6AFC:9319 (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I wrote the intro for Olympiacos title, I also added in the intro the fact that Olympiacos is the team with the most apps/matches in total, I added a golden background on the distictions section for the 2024 season, I added the second board with the total contribution of points for the country ranking where it is clear that Olympiacos is way ahead of all teams. A top-4 board with numbers which are already shown in the first two boards, in an article which is about all Greek teams seams to me like someone who thinks he is in a fan forum and wants to brag about it on his rivals. The title is everywhere in the article, you do not have to worry, it is not going to fade away. Expand the first board and add goals for/against for all Greek clubs. After all, this is an article named 'Greek football clubs in European competitions'. It's about all of them. They myst be treated equally. Make an article 'Comparison between the top-4 clubs' and lay down whatever you think can make you proud and happy. After all, your team bests everyone else in numbers. And it is clearly shown here also. Abudabanas (talk) 09:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I followed this example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_League_Greece#Top_Division_Table_(since_1959%E2%80%9360)
 * Not all the teams are here either, but only the first 10. And there are too many and not just 20 as in the present entry. So I have no obligation to extend it. It can be done gradually by anyone. And stop focusing on Olympiakos. You are unfair to many teams except PAOK. So don't provoke. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:5105:8397:319C:89FD (talk) 10:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a board about the same competition. The Greek National League. You cannot have all-time European total points when teams have unequal apps in different competitions. For exaple, Olympiacos have more apps in CL which is a tougher competition than AEK who have most apps in EL. That alone creates a statistical error. And that is why it was important to add the total all-time contribution of points for the country ranking of all teams which I did when I read it from swissfootballdata.com. It is easy to make accusations when you are not logging in and appear as an IP user. Log in and report anything you find that it is provoking or being unfair to admins/experienced users for a dispute to be resolved. Abudabanas (talk) 10:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You see you don't know them well. UEFA applies a uniform scoring system that gives 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss. These are the actual scores of the teams, regardless of the tournament. The points in the other table you put give the bonuses of the qualifiers depending on the event. Did you see that the tables are different and both are needed? https://www.gazzetta.gr/football/champions-league/article/1428424/o-olympiakos-18os-sto-champions-league-29os-o-panathinaikos-pics 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 Points regardless of the tournament? That is not what the link you added shows. The links shows points on one competition. The CL. Otherwise a statistical error would occur. You need 4 boards if you 'd like to count points. Each for one competition. CL, EL, CWC, ECL. Abudabanas (talk) 11:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Here is also from the Cup Winners' Cup.
 * https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/ec-der-pokalsieger/
 * The source is already in the thread, which others created, which you have not read and now come to make suggestions and orders. Finish and let someone else speak and have their say. Then the entry will be restored. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 (talk) 12:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 These are all-time ranking boards from each competition. They cannot be added all in one and have a total performance. You can create a European competitions all-time ranking section snd add all these boards with the ranking of all greek teams in each competition Abudabanas (talk) 12:19, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Would you like me to make you a coffee? Come on man. Deal with PAOK and let someone else speak. Who do you think you are and you keep making suggestions when you don't even know the basics. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:4466:820E:2FC5:D199 (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would like to add this about the way clubs are rated and it is the same for all 3 competitions. https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulations-of-the-UEFA-Conference-League-2024/25/D.3-Association-coefficient-calculation-Online
 * D.4.1 Points awarded in the UEFA Champions League
 * Qualifying phase and playoffs:
 * Clubs eliminated in the UEFA Champions League qualifying phase or play-offs are awarded points in the UEFA Europa League or UEFA Conference League (see Appendix D.4.2 and Appendix D.4.3 ).
 * League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):
 * 2 points for a win.
 * 1 point for a tie.
 * 0 points for defeat.
 * D.4.2 Points awarded in the UEFA Europa League
 * Qualifying phase and playoffs:
 * Clubs eliminated in the UEFA Europa League qualifying phase or play-offs are awarded points in the UEFA Conference League (see Appendix D.4.3 ).
 * League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):
 * 2 points for a win.
 * 1 point for a tie.
 * 0 points for defeat.
 * Guaranteed minimum:
 * Clubs are guaranteed at least three points in the UEFA Europa League championship stage, even if the number of points actually earned at this stage is less. This guaranteed minimum is not added to the points actually earned in the league phase and is not included in the correlation coefficient calculation.
 * D.4.3 Points awarded in the UEFA Conference League
 * Qualifying phase and playoffs:
 * 1 point awarded to each club eliminated in the first qualifying round.
 * 1.5 points awarded to each club eliminated in the second qualifying round.
 * 2 points awarded to each club eliminated in the third qualifying round.
 * 2.5 points awarded to each club eliminated in the playoffs.
 * League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):
 * 2 points for a win.
 * 1 point for a tie.
 * 0 points for defeat. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:E986:339C:9B64:A127 (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @2A02:586:813D:2A91:E986:339C:9B64:A127 Coefficient calculation. That has nothing to do with the all-time total points shown (like all teams were playing in the same league or same competition) on the top-4 board you insist on editing. Adding total points when teams have different apps on multiple competitions creates a statistical error. Abudabanas (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe. but it will check and if it exists it will be corrected. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C4FA:FBB9:E10B:3E9 (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * With my first research I found the following: UEFA introduced the points system in its international competitions in 1979. Taking into account 5 years, the official scoring starts from 1975. This means that since 1955 and the 'maiden' European club competition under the auspices of UEFA, the Champions Cup, until 1973-1974, the calculations are not considered official. However, looking at the specialist website Kassiesa, we see scores even before 1974-1975, with the method introduced by UEFA that season. With these data, the corresponding Greek harvest begins in 1959-1960. From 1959-1960 until 2019-2020, with the 5 different measurements used by UEFA (plus the unofficial measurement until 1973-1974), Olympiacos has won 314 points from 118 wins, 54 draws and qualifications that have been accompanied by bonus points, in a total of 299 games in its European history. Panathinaikos is next with 277.5 points in 287 matches (101 wins, 69 draws, 117 losses) and AEK with 202.5 points in 225 matches (71-56-98). Promoted PAOK of the era Ivan Savvidis now has 166 points in 190 games (69-55-66) and Aris are further back with 59.5 points in 66 games (24-18-24) of the 3 UEFA competitions (Champions Cup /Champions League, Cup Winners' Cup, UEFA Cup/Europa League). The remaining 15 Greek clubs that have competed in Europe have accumulated a cumulative 118.5 points in 180 matches (57-34-89).
 * So everything is correct so far. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:78CA:B43C:E72C:4090 (talk) 07:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)