Talk:Guerrilla warfare/Archive 1

Democracies are especially vulnerable to the factor of time?
I find this sentence a bit difficult to document: Israel is still there after 50 years, and the US lasted more in Vietnam than the soviets in Afghanistan. The Maoist guerrilla, and the Castrist guerrilla, did not topple democratic governments, but the opposite. The Native Americans were utterly unsuccesful in stopping the US Republic. Napoleon in Spain also did not represent an example of democratic government. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.48.167.51 (talk) 14:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

General Discussion
Add Robert the Bruce to "Primary contributors to modern theories of guerrilla war..." ?

What about activities of Lawrence, T.E. on Arabian peninsula during WWI? Just because he became a media star does not change the fact that the Arab Revolt against the Turks was assymetric and relied on hit-and-run and dispersal tactics to succeed. Also, note that Lawrence himself was an accomplished theorist of guerrilla war: see his article on the subject in the Brittanica of 1938. I don't remember a "liberation war against France". Considering the number of times France and Spain have forged and broken alliances, could we get something specific? I'm guessing we're talking Bourbons or maybe Bonapartes, but I'm shaky between 1815 and WWI. JHK

T.E. Lawrence surely made a guerrilla warfare to achieve the political goals of Arab independence from the Ottoman domination.

Takima 00:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with regard to T. E. Lawrence. He was the first person to combine modern Guerilla tactics with intense nationalism to create a potent new military strategy.

dissymetric war is the one from weak to strong with military targets only, as the 3 Indochina Wars, while assymetric war is still from weak to strong, but with collateral targets, the defenseless children for parents, civilian people and institution for the contested authority with its police and military forces. Let's take Richard Taber's book on "The war of the flea". Commando warfare is no guerrilla.

Takima

Vietnam was not a guerrilla war? Hmmm. Must have missed something during those two years I was there! I think it would be just a tad more accurate to say that guerrilla warfare was the norm in many parts of Vietnam right up until the withdrawal of US Forces. F. Lee Horn

On the battlefield and in common language, there is confusion between guerilla warfare and irregular warfare. The distinction is much at the level of the "Military Review, US Army", in Military and Strategic Sudies, out of Political Sciences. That's the kind of History Department at US Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD.

Takima 21:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm copying something that I read from Gwyne Dyer's book "War". According to him, Vietnam seemed like a guerrilla war because the North Vietnamese seemed to appear and disappear in the jungle. According to him however it was not a guerrilla war because after 1965, most of the Communist units in Vietnam were regular units of the North Vietnamese Army using largely conventional tactics, supply and troop organization.

Even when we were under fire from a concealed unit, it was still relatively easy to tell the difference between North Vietnamese regulars and VC (rate and volume of fire, type of weapons used, duration of contact, etc). Even in the Central Highlands, units of the United States Army still came under fire from what we considered to be Viet Cong right up until I left Country in SEP '69. I'm sure Mr. Dyer is a good writer, but if your paraphrase of his book is accurate, I'm probably never going to agree with him. F. Lee Horn

BTW, guerrilla warfare was known centuries before XIX century. It was just called differently, in Polish eg. wojna szarpana, podjazdowa, partyzancka (from: partia, that is small unit of army). I think that shouldbe reflected in article, what do you think? szopen

As far as whether Vietnam was a guerrilla war or not, I think we might be arguing definitions, and I rewrote the paragraph a bit. In 1963, the Vietnam War was definitely a guerrilla war. In 1973, it definitely was not largely because the VC had be decimated by then.

Let's not forget not the Chindits and US Merrill's Marauders on commando warfare, but the OSS Detachment 101 did it's own guerrilla warfare recruiting the native "Kashin". The Maraudeurs and OSS Detachment 101 make that difference. OSS Major Aechimedes Patti helped Ho Chi Minh to put in the same order the "Liberties" on his declaration of independence on september 2nd 1945 as on the the US one. OSS were under direct controlFDR and followed his policies on China and Indochina.

Takima 01:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

"In the 1960s and 1970s, Latin America had a number of urban guerilla movements whose strategy was to destablize democratic regimes and provoke a counter-reaction by the military." But the guerilla fighters would in all probability deny that these regimes were democratic (and often they weren't really)! Could this be rewritten more along the lines of NPOV? --Daniel C. Boyer

The most proper usage is "guerrilla fighter," not "guerrilla," even though the latter is very commonly used. --Daniel C. Boyer

ETA is not what I think of when I hear guerrilla. Maybe I don't understand the proper English meaning, but I think that guerrilla implies countryside, jungle or generally out-of-cities fighting. ETA acts mainly in cities. I don't know if it could be called an "urban guerrilla" (a concept, by the way, that's not mentioned in the article). -- Error
 * Not really. Guerrilla fighting is a style or set of tactics which can be used in any terrain.  You could argue that guerrilla tactics are better suited for terrains that limit the enemy's line of sight (such as jungle or urban) but that is not a requirement. Rossami 18:58, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

With urban guerrilla warfare, the guerrillas tend to use the appropiate camoflage (civilian clothing) and hide within the civilian population, instead of hiding out in the jungle. Urban guerrilla warfare is a technically accurate definition for some of the ETA's activities and the Provisional IRA's violence against the British security forces (regular Army, Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Ulster Constabulary) in cities like Belfast and Derry. The IRA wore civilian clothes, kept the identity of members secret and hid within the civilian population with the help of civilian sympathisers who did anything from provide weapons and safe hoses right down to not reporting IRA activities to the authorities.Kingal86 19:28, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I added a note about The United Irishman and The Nation. I found the reference to this on page 56 of the book The Fall of Feudalism in Ireland by Michael Davitt. Bernfarr 17:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The following occurs in the article: "The -illa term accepts the unequal fight between civilians against an organized State Army." This seems a contradiction in terms as 'civilian' is, arguably, by definition a non-combatant. Also, the adjective 'organized' applied to the state army (which should not be capitalised) seems to imply that guerrilla armies are not organized. If there are no objections, I'll be changing this shortly. FelixB 03:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the etymology section badly needs citations. Is there documentation supporting the claim that the "term was invented in Spain to describe the tactics used to resist the French regime instituted by Napoleon Bonaparte"? Or that the "change of usage of guerrilla from the tactics employed to the person implementing them is a late 19th century mistake"? If not, these claims need to disappear. FelixB 03:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
I'm not a native-speaker in english.. but i believe Guerrilla iss spelled G-U-E-R-I-L-L-A ... the title contains one r too much. if this is correct please change it! thanks! -- pit 16:28 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Looks like it is spelled both ways with Google showing twice as many hits for two r's. Rmhermen 16:37 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * ok. looks like there is a redirect from the one-r-version. but thanks anyway! -- pit 17:16 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * whichever spellings are correct, the article should probably use one spelling consistently, and mention other spellings as alternative spellings.
 * Two Rs is correct. --Descendall 15:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the bit about "_US-backed_ right-wing dictatorships" needs to be balanced with "Cuban-backed left-wing guerrilla groups" - I know Cuba, and probably the Soviet Union, tended to be linked to these movements. However I'm uncertain of which specific groups they supported, if they supported the vast majority of Marxist rebels or not. If someone knows and could modify that section a bit that'd be great. Trey Stone 07:47, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm a Spanish speaker, and it is spelled with 2 R's

Two R's is the most common, according to the Oxford English dictionary both are correct. The one 'r' has its roots in the French language while the 'rr' version (as mentioned above) has it roots in Spanish.


 * The language academy, la Real Academia Española, uses two R’s. --Noé Æ 05:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The root of Guerrilla comes from spanish. Guerra means war and with the diminutive used in spanish -illa, it becomes Guerrilla, meaning small war

Not recognised as unlawful combatants
One could argue that while internment was in place that the British Government recognised that a state of conflict existed in Northern Ireland. But as they ran the the Internment camps with a recognised hierarchy like a POW camp one could also argue that they saw the enemy as combatants. The ending of internment ended that de-facto recognition and all future prisoners were to be teated as common criminals. Bobby Sands and the other hunger strikers hoped that they could force the British Government to recognise them as political prisoners/POWs. They did not succeed in getting that recognition (although they did get modification to rules under which all prisoners in NI were held) so the British Government never saw the pepople they called terrorists in Northern Ireland as unlawful combatants (from an armed conflict) they saw them as criminals arrested in a policing action (as did and does the government of the Irish Republic).

Likewise the Spanish government has never recognised that they are in a state of conflict with the organisations which they call terrorist, so the people they call terrorists are not unlawfull combatants. Philip Baird Shearer 09:39, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It may be true that the British government never recognised a state of conflict, legal or illegal, in Northern Ireland. However that doesn't change the fact that there was a conflict (or at least an insurgency) in Northern Ireland, hence all the references to "peace" (the opposite). The conflict in Northern Ireland could be seen as a complex civil war with three or even four sides: the British security forces (the regular Army, Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Ulster Constabulary) the IRA, the Loyalist paramilitaries and the Irish security forces (the Gardai and Army). Another note: the terms terrorist and unlawful combatant are in effect synonyms, since terrorism is often defined as unlawful political violence.

Kingal86 19:26, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry i dont see what the gardi and Irish army have to do with it at all86.42.138.22 02:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC) I wonder if it would be useful to the reader to more clearly compare and contrast a guerrilla with a terrorist / unlawful combatant. After reading the article and discussion, I'm still fuzzy on the distinction .... 216.229.91.244 07:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * All of the following is IMHO: I'm not sure that it is possible to "contrast" a guerrilla and a terrorist. A Guerrilla is presumably someone who undertakes Guerrilla warfare, which "is a method of combat". The designation  relates to the strategic and tactical methods utilized by the combatant(s), not to their combatant status, goals, or choice of targets .  The designation "Terrorist" is often a political one, and is generally applied when target choices are judged to be unacceptable by whomever is pondering using the designation.  Thus, Terrorists often (almost always?) use Guerrilla warfare tactics.  Guerrillas, on the other hand fight for a wide range of causes, and may be designated terrorists, freedom fighters, irregular forces, etc based on the perspective of the observer. Psarj 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

IRA and ETA failed?
I have reverted the edits by User:Kingal86 because: Philip Baird Shearer 09:50, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) For most of the campaing, most of ETA have never said that they want part of France. If they had the French government would not have tolerated ETA activists on RR in France for so many years.
 * 2) The ETA campaign is ongoing so it is premature to list it as a failure.
 * 3) The IRA (like ETA) puts out an extreme position (as did the British Government) but in reality the IRA was willing to compromise, as was the British Government. The whole point of the Good Friday agreement is that both sides could say to their respective constituents that they had won. If one says that the IRA failed one would have to say that the British failed. But equally one can say that if the British won the war so to did the IRA. If the Good Friday Agreement is an IRA surrender document, why are the Democratic Unionist Party so against the agreement?
 * 4) It is arguable that the Loyalist paramilitaries have waged anything but a terrorist war. Unless one recognises the IRA as a legitimate army (Catch  22), then the Loyalist paramilitaries targeted no one but civilians, which would usually be called terrorism.

The IRA is not a legitimate army in my opininon, and the British and Irish government's opinion, and many others' opinions (Unionists, Republicans and neither). But its armed members are still not civilians. They are unlawful combatants. And surely if the Nicaraguan Contras can be called guerrillas for the purposes of this section (even though they mostly targeted civilians, killing many, many more than the IRA, Loyalist paramilitaries and British security forces combined in Northern Ireland) then so can IRA and Loyalist paramilitary members.

I guess you're right that the ETA campaign shouldn't be listed as a failure. I still think the Provisional IRA's campaign (of guerrilla warfare against the British security forces, sectarian violence against Protestants and brutal terrorism against British civilians) could be seen as a failure based on its initial objective: an end to British rule, the re-unification of Ireland and a socialist republic. So surely some mention should be made in this article to this failure.

I know Loyalist paramilitaries murdered Catholic civilians and assassinated unarmed IRA and Sinn Fein members. But surely they must have also attacked armed IRA members. Such acts could be considered guerrilla warfare against the IRA. Presumably the aim of all these attacks was to end the IRA insurgency, which they did not.

Kingal86 18:54, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * This article is careful to narrow what part of the IRA campaign could be considered guerrilla attacks such as the IRA carried out on British soldiers at Warrenpoint'. The reason why I put in so many links around the name calling in the same paragraph was because before I did that the section was involved in an edit war.  If you look at treaty which came out of the the Anglo-Irish war, as the IRA did not achieve all of their goals by your current argument, one would have to argue that the IRA lost. This would look very odd given the current status of Southern Ireland. Yet at the time many members of the IRA thought that they had lost.


 * You say "The IRA is not a legitimate army in my opininon" the you say they are "unlawful combatants" Since the end of internment the British Government would not agree with you, because they can only be unlawful combatants if there is at the very least an armed conflict in progress, something that the British government has always denied. Therefore if an IRA gunman arrested by the security forces, he was tried in an ordinary criminal court as a criminal. Before (s)he was tried he was not held as a POW, which is what should have been done if he was a combatant who's status was unknown. Therefore if he was killed armed "on active service" by the British soldier or by a protestant gunman he was a civilian. Philip Baird Shearer 20:23, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Did the Army use self-defence laws to justify killing IRA gunmen and bombers if they denied an armed conflict was taking place?
 * Yes. Philip Baird Shearer 17:57, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Because under the laws and customs of war it is legal for lawful combatants to kill armed enemy combatants (including unlawful combatants), however if ordinary laws of self-defence were used there must have many more restrictions on the Army's rules of engagement in Northern Ireland. Kingal86 15:39, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * If you want another example of Spanish guerrillas failing, take the maquis after the Spanish Civil War. -- Error 23:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Ira Did succeed in bringing worldwide attention to the human rights abuse of the british and therefore, its lessening...and i dont like the (modern day)IRA but in fairness...86.42.138.22 02:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Not clear outcome of the PIRA campaign; most sources talk about a stalemate from the military point of view, and the situation for the Republican political position in NI has improved dramatically since 1969: end of the Protestant hegemony, recognition of the so called Irish dimension by the UK, Irish Republic increasing involvement and influence in NI affairs (since the 1985 Anglo-Irish treaty), growing popularity of Sinn Fein, reform of the Police, withdrawal of British troops from sensitive areas and power sharing. The Belfast agreement also left the door open for the ultimate Republican objective (still not accomplished): the unification.

So I find in some way hard to appoint the 1969-1997 guerrilla war either as a failure or a success without entering in PoV terrain. In consequence, I removed a recent edit including this campaign as an outright failure. DagosNavy 03:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, by including the PIRA campaign as a failure the article would be contradicting itself; the Post WWII section asserts that:

DagosNavy 16:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In the late 1960s the Troubles began again in Northern Ireland. They had their origins in the partition of Ireland during the Irish War of Independence. They came to an end with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. The peace is fragile and it is too early to tell if a permanent end to the conflict has occurred and which group, if any, won.

You should remember also the famous Kissinger quote about the political aftermath of any guerrilla war:


 * The guerrilla wins if he does not lose; the conventional army loses if it does not win.

DagosNavy 13:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The IRA had 4 objectives in northern ireland, 1.Civil rights for the catholic community, 2.Defence of Catholic homes from British/loyalist attack, 3.An end to Stormont domination and 4.A united and free Ireland. It achieved 3 out of 4 of its aims, this makes it more of a victory than a loss for the IRA--86.156.121.26 (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I must be mistaken, but is not Northern Ireland ruled from Stormont?


 * I must be mistaken, my anonymous mate, but is not Stormont ruled by a cross-community vote, and partially controled by Sinn Féin, the political wing of the PIRA, despite of more than 30 years of British military intervention? Is not the deputy prime minister of Stormont an Irish Republican and former member of the PIRA?. Was not the right to hold both British and Irish citizenship in NI accepted by both governments? All this without mention of the Republic of Ireland role in NI government, in place since the 1985 treaty and confirmed by the GFA.--Darius (talk) 14:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

pronouns
I removed "although Loyalist armed groups were often referred to collectively as "Loyalist paramilitaries" rather than "Loyalist terrorist organisations". " because if the paragraph goes that way we will end up with ",they call the IRA, PIRA and...". It will end up being an alphabet soup with no extra clarity. The point of the sentence is not if a member of the governments miss out the pronoun "terrorist" (which they often do), it is that they never include the pronoun "guerrilla" and rarely if ever use more neutral terms like "gunmen".Philip Baird Shearer 08:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Che Guevara
I think che guevara's contributions to guerrilla's in latin america should be mention, also the Fidel Castro's guerrilla movement "26 de julio" also should be mentioned. and actual colombian "guerrillas" FARC and ELN should be mentioned(although they have right now the size of an army an are recognized as such), if we have a concense in this i will add all these things to the section. --Gotten 20:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

American Revolution
On the list of successful guerilla wars, does the American Revolution not fit the protocol? The fact that the regular army was, at best, non-dependable and as small as 15,000 at some times during the war, and also considering that the war could not have been won without the various, almost autonomous militias that used many of what we call guerilla tactics make it seem to me that it was, at least in part, a successful guerilla campaign.
 * That is what we were taught in grade school; the Americans won because they shot from cover, behind trees, Indian-style, and so had an advantage over the British and the mercenaries who were trained to shoot in volleys under the command and control of a central agency, in the open, in disciplined ranks of soldiers (the Thin Red Line). Thus the war of the American Revolution could be considered a war of attrition, in a test of political will of the Kingdom, which automatically guaranteed an eventual victory for the partisans, as an invading force has problems of supply, as compared to the partisans, who are at home. In the case of the American colonists, manufacture of their own equipment was the only option and an entire class of manufacturers and artisans evolved in the preceding century and a half (1600-1750), which provided the equipment and technology with which they fought. After the decline of the policy of mercantilism, which forced the indigenous manufacture by the colonists (everything from buildings, chairs, etc, to guns), a policy of supply of natural resources to the mother country has remained to this day. However globalization of the control of natural resources and the knowledge and technology of the planet are changing the game. Stay tuned. Ancheta Wis 9 July 2005 13:56 (UTC)


 * Historians are fairly direct in stating that the AmRev was NOT a guerrilla war. While there were distinctive aspects of an insurgency (especially in the Carolinas and along the frontier), Washington and the rebel military leadership were clear in their desire to build, train and field a conventional army. While Washington's war could be seen as a perfect example of an asymetric conflict, it was not a traditional guerrilla war.

As Zedong points out, a guerrilla force can act in conjunction with a conventional one, as happened in the Revolution. I'd agree it's not a "guerrilla war", but it did have many guerrilla-style engagements. 130.127.3.249 (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Article on Francis Marion mentions he was "a military officer who served in the American Revolutionary War" and continues: "Due to his irregular methods of warfare, he is considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare" (All these before the table of contents). The article for the American Revolutionary War mentions the use of guerrilla warfare as important to the outcome of the conflict.

To not even mention the American Revolutionary War in this article with statements like the ones in these associated articles seems exceedingly ingongruous... One or more of them needs to be changed Brettpeirce (talk) 02:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Guerrilla does not equal asymmetric warfare
In both the irregular military article and here, it's been said that guerrillas use asymmetric warfare. This isn't quite right. Asymmetric warfare applies to both sides of a war, not just the one with irregular forces. For example, what the US is doing in Iraq follows the doctrine of asymmetric warfare. Unless someone makes a counter-claim, I'm going to fix both articles. --A D Monroe III 02:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Sure Guerrilla does not equal asymetric warfare with colateral weacker targets, as the son for father and unarmed civilian population and institution. Guerrilla is about attacking military targets on a dissymetric warfare of the weak agains a strong. Merril's Marauders were about that dissymetric warfare afainst powerfur Japanes infantry in Burma ttp://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/merrill's%20marauders.htm.

Takima 01:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Commando operations
Written by User:Takima on 28 Dec 2005:
 * Commando operations are no guerrilla warfare (Richard Taber, “The War of the Flea : Guerrilla Warfare, Theory and Practice”. Paladin, London, 1977) while they lack the political goal. Commando troops, as the British commando, were a branch of the armed forces. Guerrilla warfare is the expression of Sun Tzu's Art of deception, in contrast of clauserwitz's unlimited use of brute force.

If one removes the source from the paragraph:
 * Commando operations are no guerrilla warfare while they lack the political goal. Commando troops, as the British commando, were a branch of the armed forces. Guerrilla warfare is the expression of Sun Tzu's Art of deception, in contrast of clauserwitz's unlimited use of brute force.

What does it mean? If no one can explain it to me I will remove it --Philip Baird Shearer 23:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It means only that guerrilla warfare is a way to use military forces and operations to achieve political goals, while commandos troops are only irregulars, parts of regular armies. The difference is in the philosophy of war. In guerrilla warfare, military actions are instrumental to polital goals which are fundamental, while commando actions are purely military.

1- For Sun Tzu, in "The Art of War", english translation by USMC General Samuel B. Griffith (reference at UNESCO), "War is the art of deception". Then, military actions are directed not to destroy, but to achieve politiclal goals. The motto is "to subdue the ennemy without fighting is the acme of strategy". It's a long story at the time of Confucius with Confucean values.

2 - For Clausewitz, disciple of Napoleon, the Butcher of Europe, "War is an unlimited use of brute force", leading the way to "Total War".

All these come from Military and sSrategic Studies, out of Polital Sciences. Just go to the "Military Review. US Army".

Takima 21:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

War of the Flea

 * "[…] The experience of the Second World War and of every conflict since the has made it clear that commando troops are not guerrillas. Nor can be the so-called 'counter-insurgency' forces now being developed in a more sophisticated school be considred guerrillas, although they may employ some of the more obvious techniques of the guerrilla fighters - the night raid, the ambush, the roving patrol far from a military base, and so on. (...). The guerrilla fighter is primarily a propagandist, an agitator, a disseminator of the revolutionary idea, who uses the struggle itself - the actual physical conflict - as an instrument of agitation. His primary goal is to raise the level of revolutionary anticipation, and then of popular participation, to the crisis pointat which the revolution becomes general throughout the country and the people in teheir masses carry out the final task - the destruction of the existing order and (often but not always) of the army that defends it." (Robert Taber, pp. 21-23, “The War of the Flea”, Citadel Press, New York, 1969).

Takima 14:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * essentially correct, although it may be also accurate to say that commandos use certain elements of guerrilla warfare.

Subversive War and Guerrilla Warfare
From the "little war" of Spanish roots to the WWII War of Partisans, we get a full view I've addsed. Takima 18:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This whole section is very unclear and seems only to reference the vietnamese. I dont think it belongs. Unless anyone speaks up, I'm going to delete it. Akrabbim 02:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's done. Akrabbim 02:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

“They cannot conquer an idea with an army”. Tom Paine, for the American Independence war (1775-1781), from the Battle of Lexington to the Battle of Yorktown.

It ain't vietnamese, but plain American War of Independence.

Takima 22:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * “[…] Too often we see guerrilla warfare only from the point of view of combat actions. This view is erroneous and extremely dangerous. Combat actions are not the key to victory in guerrilla warfare but rather form part of one of the six basic efforts. There is no priority in any of the efforts, but rather they should progress in a parallel manner. The emphasis or exclusion of any of these efforts could bring about serious difficulties, and in the worst of cases, even failure. The history of revolutionary wars has shown this reality.” ( from http://www.kimsoft.com/guerilla.htm)

Takima 13:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

People's Army of Viet Nam and Guerilla Warfare
Read this jolly good work.

http://indochine54.free.fr/vm/vietminh.html#top

Takima 13:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Iraq
At the end of the article, it is said that guerilla warfare killed over 2000 US troops; yet isnt that the total number of dead soldiers in Iraq including those who have not been killed by guerilla warfare (meaning those killed in the initial invasion?)--DragonFly31 23:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to what Wikipedia's page on Al Anbar Governorate says, the Governorate and its capital are not currently under the insurgents' contol. Both links (to MSNBC) on that page are dead, so I don't know how MSNBC initially put it. Second, the edit I made corrects some grammar in the paragraph. Please, do not revert.--129.128.45.126 03:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please update the information on Iraq to reflect the "Surge" which seems to have seriously damaged the insurgency? I'm no fan of the war, but all indications are the surge worked... 26 MAY 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.29.49.62 (talk) 16:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Guerilla action/Terrorism in Israel and the Palestinian territories
I'm concerned about the wording in this section of the article, which seems slightly biased to me, in particular the following lines (quoted from the article, my italics): "...including the bombing of the King David Hotel. This act of violence, while certainly guerrilla warfare, cannot be considered terrorism because of the warning given hours beforehand for civilians to leave. Terrorism, by definition, involves the deliberate targeting of civilians, which early Israelis did not consider justifiable."

"The use of terrorism has become the norm for the Palestinian cause, targeting women and children in addition to Israeli combatants. This guerrilla warfare, unlike the type used by Jews pre-1948, is contrary to the rules of war and the Geneva Conventions because of its deliberate targeting of innocent civilians."

I've checked the page definition of terrorism, and while it's certainly disputed, I don't see anywhere where it says bombing civilian buildings isn't terrorism if a warning is given beforehand. Warnings were given by the IRA before some of their bombings, and they were still often (though by no means universally) considered terrorist actions. In the case of the King David Hotel bombing, civilians were intentionally killed, which suggests to me that it was a terrorist act. However, the word 'terrorist' is inherently controversial and carries negative implications, so it's generally best used as little as possible on Wikipedia, except where absolutely necessary.

My suggestion is to remove or edit the sections I've quoted to make them less potentially biased - i.e. simply say that the hotel bombing happened, without declaring whether or not it was an act of terrorism. I have no problem with the second quote, apart from the italicised words, which I think should be removed. However, I won't make any changes until a consensus can be found on the issue. I'd like to hear what other people think; give your comments below. Terraxos 18:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the definitions of each party's actions. (Be bold in updating pages) This is not an article on terrorism anyhow. Anyone biased to either side will manage to conjure up their own image of these events without needing Wikipedia to tell them what they think. :) I'm biased towards Israel, but even I can see that these paragraphs are a clear violation of NPOV policy. Joffeloff 18:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish War versus Irish War of Independence
There have been numerous Anglo-Irish wars throughout the centuries. The war between 1919 and 1921 is known to the vast majority of people in Ireland as the War of Independence. That term is chronologically and symbolically precise, indicative of the term's importance and technically less wrong (it was the entire British state and not merely an English/Anglo state against the Irish). The Irish War of Independence is also the name of the Wikipedia article on the war. El Gringo 19:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It may be known as the Irish War of Independence in Southern Ireland but in the UK it is commonly called the Anglo-Irish War. The page now named Irish War of Independence was up until recently under the name Anglo-Irish War, and as you know from the talk page of the article that both names are acceptable. As both names appear in the first sentence of the article, the name of the article and the redirect is not of any consequence. There is no reason to rename the war on this page, as the name that exists is just as correct as the change you are making. Are you familiar with WP:MOS? This is a case of the first major contributor to this section which was to use Anglo Irish War. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

If British prejudices were to be the determining factor then Wikipedia might as well rename the Irish Republic page "Southern Ireland" because the British, and they alone, use that term loaded as it is with the paritionist imperialist British mentality where the Paddies can't have a nation but a part of it. Wikipedia, however, does not use a term simply because it is "commonly called" that in Britain. The fact remains that there has been a vote on Wikipedia about the name of the war: it was decided to call the page by its most precise and common name, the Irish War of Independence. You are clearly having trouble with that vote, quite like the British had in 1918 when the British state overthrew democracy because Sinn Féin won 73 of the 105 seats on the entire island. Finally, that overthrow of democracy, the partition of Ireland against the expressed wishes of the majority, was during the War of Independence, not after it. The act in question was the Government of Ireland Act 1920. This is not disputed by any professional historian, so please stop changing it. Thank you. 193.1.172.163 01:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It has nothing directly to do with "British prejudices" (any more than the American War of Independence does), it is part of Wikipedia etiquette to reduce edit conflicts. Please see WP:MOS. Just because one page is altered this does not give a carte blanche to change all other pages which link to it. This is why there are redirects. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

the winners write history therefore War of Independence ipso fact bastardo02:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Post WW2
"and attacks on the nationalist population by loyalist paramilitaries who had strong links to the British state forces." - this phrase is ludicrously POV. Gerry Lynch 15:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Two words (among many):Miami Showband. El Gringo 04:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the link, El Gringo. I was going to comment to Gerry Lynch, just in general, that the statement is not POV, and certainly not "ludicrously" so, if it is supported by the facts. ---Charles 04:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

guerillas as terrorists?
The following statement, "Guerrillas are often characterized as terrorists by their opponents, as part of psychological warfare," should be removed from the article. While this may be true, it smacks of an agenda. Many conflicts have been fought using guerilla warfare (GW), and while one side or another may consider GW to be terrorism, whether it is/was terrorism or not does not remain in serious dispute to third party observers. Generally these fighters are seen not as terrorists, but as freedom fighters or revolutionaries.

Terrorism, although a subject about which there is much debate, which some also see as a revolutionary movement, is generally considered to be less "legitimate," if you will, which is attributable to its specific targeting of innocents. For an objective observer, the drawing any level of equivalency between the two is to at once detract from the legitimacy of history's freedom fighters (some of whose methods were certainly suspect) AND lend more credence and legitimacy to those who use terrorist methods.

If there are no objections, I'll remove the statement.

66.208.48.126 12:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Examples of successful guerrilla warfare
The list is by far uncomplete. Those that may/should be listed are the following

FSLN in Nicaragua PLA in China (an odd omition seeing as how important his ideas were) Viet Minh forces in the First Indochina War (I dont mention the Vietnam War because of the heavy involvement of regular army units by North Vietnam) Pathet Lao in Laos Hezbollah in Lebanon (though I understand that many will find this unacceptable considering current events and or if they consider Hezbollah a major force in the war of 1982) Mexican revolutionaries in Mexico (as they did establish a new government) 26th of July Movement in Cuba

as for failed guerrilla movements and wars, they're are many, From rebels in Sierra Leone to DRC to Spain, Ukraine, and Russia, to Guatemala, El Salvador, Panama, Brazil, Colombia (by which I mean those who lost or were destroyed in La Violencia or who surrendered in the 1980s and 90s) to Peru and Boliviaand America if you count Confederates (since I see America listed on successful examples)


 * I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of "successful guerrilla wars". Wars have (at least) two sides, so success for one side is not for the other. It would be better to use a phrase like "successful guerrilla campaigns" or "wars where guerrilla forces were successful", no? --BobFromBrockley 11:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

How bout a quick mention of Hezbolahs successfull rocket attacks against Isreal.Despite being bombed and shelled for a month the rockets stilled rained down until the moment a cease fire was called. However unpopular,I would call that a successfull hit and run campain

Was Hezbollah's campaign in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict successful? I'm not so sure. They did not achieve their goal of bringing Israel to its knees, however you wish to define it. It did make life difficult for Israelis for a few months, but I think things are worse now for Lebanon and even for Hezbollah than they are for the Israelis. I propose either deleting Hezbollah's mension from the list of successful guerrilla warfarers or add a note to it saying that its level of success is highly debatable. --GHcool 05:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No response in a week. I'm removing it from the list.  --GHcool 04:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It is highly debateable whether Hezbollah's foray can be termed successful either politically or militarily. If anyone wants to mention Hezebollah's success, it can be in their activity of building a "state within a state" inside Lebanon. On that part of their agenda, they can certainly claim success. But that is very different from the context of this article.
 * I propose putting it back on the list due to the fact that Hezbollah's large guerrilla camp was a major factor in the withdrawal of Israel in 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.183.139 (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that the date during the guerrilla risings should be added next to the country.

A Pioneer of Guerrilla Warfare
Most people know about guerrilla warfare tactics of the post-Medieval period. I think this article should give more attention to one of the first pioneers of guerrilla warfare, the Roman Fabius Maximus of the Second Punic War. If you look at the methods of the Fabian Strategy, you can see that they are extremely similar to those used in the American Revolution, the Peninsular War, and in Vietnam but were applied about 2,000 years earlier! Not to mention that they were quite successful. When the SPQR failed again and again to crush Hannibal using traditional warfare, Roman unconventional strategy managed to tie down the Carthaginians for about 14 years. I don't know if Fabius was the father of guerrilla warfare but his influences were monumental. I think more attention should be given in this article on that.
 * Fabius as pioneer of guerilla warfare? - misleading Fabius approach was to AVOID conventional battle and he did so by constantly maneuvering large conventional forces to shadow and threaten Hannibal, while avoiding a major clash on the plains where Hannibal's cavalry was superior. Maneuver of large conventional forces in a defensive manner is NOT guerrilla warfare. is true that part of Fabian operations involved screening and covering activity which in any conventional army involves small unit actions,raids, recon, aggressive patrols etc. These may be guerrilla like but cannot be said to be guerrila warfare in the context of this article or Fabius being a pioneer in such. There is little similarity with the Viet Cong for example which broke up into small guerrilla or mobile units mostof the time. It would have been suicidal for the VC to maneuver conventional divisions as Fabius did. As for Fabius' influence, it was comparatively short-lived. While fine for Italy, he initially opposed the counterattack of Scipio into Spain and Africa, a counterattack that was eventually successful in forcing Hannibal's withdrawal and crushing Carthage. The claim is a bit misleading and should be modified in the article, to mention Fabius but contrast his operations to that of guerrilla warfare.Enriquecardova 18:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

guerrilla warfare has generally been unsuccessful against native regimes? - not quite
The large history of couples and rebellions in Africa, which various groups having clear political objectives and using small-scale mobility and tactics of guerillas show that such warfare has sometimes been successfully used. Among the examples- the overthrow of the Hutu regime in Rwanda (a guerrilla army was operating in opposition 4 years before the genocide), overthrow of the Liberian regime, the overthrow of the Idi AMin regime in Uganda, etc. In Asia, the Northern Vietamese commuists not only succeeded in expelling foreign forces but completed their victory against the southern regime. There are several other examples. This claim should be modified a bit to reflect this. Enriquecardova 01:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

article cleanup
added headings, explanatory diagrams, and tightened editing. most of original text still in place under new headings. new headings will allow more scope for editors to plug in information. previous version mixed numerous topics together- with one paragraph on tactics suddenly jumping to commandos, then jumping to foreign versus native guerilla struggles, then jumping to terrorism, or jumping to urban versus rural guerrillas without clear structure. A standard reference like the Encyc Britannica uses clear logical headings for the topic- like logistics, operations, civil relations etc. Wikipedia should do the same- clear, logical organization- easy to read and follow. More can be plugged in with proper categorization now. keep up the good work on this page. Enriquecardova 07:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Order of examples?
Should the examples be in chronological order or alphabetical order? Jacob Haller 03:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How about a pronunciation guide for this? The common American English way of saying it is much different from the Spanish.
 * Maybe you can put a blurb in the text showing how to pronounce. This website on pronounciation mentions the word guerrilla if that is the main word at issue: http://carolinamayorga.alkem.org/media/pocket_guide.pdf


 * I saw nothing about guerrilla on that link. Merriam-Webster says that it is pronounced ‘gorrila’ like the animal. However as a Spanish speaker I know that their version is entirely different from the Spanish. The correct version is pronounced: geh-rree-yah. I wish I know how to transcribe that to IPA. --Noé Æ 05:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Reference trivia
Some concepts and situations in guerrilla warfare are glaringly obvious. Demanding citations for statements like "guerrillas need surprise" or "guerrillas need sanctuaries" or the fact that communist guerrillas used sanctuaries in other countries during the Vietnam War, or the fact that guerrilla warfare can be sometimes successful borders on the trivial. Demanding citations for the glaring obvious fact that American attacks deposed the Taliban regime in Afghanistan 2001, or the rather obvious fact that the Internet makes gathering publicly available information easy, is another example of focus on trivia rather than real content. Sometimes the citations demanded are 6 paragraphs below on the same page, such as a discussion of guerrillas during the Penisular War. This is really misusing the purpose of citations, and can be seen as a form of vandalism.

Using this approach, then every line of the article would need citations, but do we really need a citation to know that Kurds live in Iraq, or that India and Pakistan have had tensions between them, or that the Internet is used to gather info, or that the Taliban were attacked in 2001? The solid detail added by other editors, both general and in depth on worldwide guerrilla conflicts, offer a much better model to follow in developing this and other Wikipedia articles. Thanks to all the sincere editors who keep up the good work on this article with real content. Enriquecardova 05:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Post World War II - also Poland
In Poland, we also had some fighters against soviet. Last of them was killed in 1963. Here's the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers Sorry for my English, Grot, polish wiki —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.244.31.30 (talk) 13:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
 * It is good that you bring to remembrance these soldiers who also fought for freedom aganst both tyranies.Enriquecardova 19:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Eliminated a misconception
I just got rid of one of the most common misconceptions concerning guerilla warfare. The Little Internet Kitty 00:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Primary contributors
In the lead: "Primary contributors to modern theories of guerrilla war include the Cossacks, Mao Zedong, Abd el-Krim, T. E. Lawrence, Vo Nguyen Giap, Josip Broz Tito, Michael Collins, Tom Barry, Che Guevara, Ho Chi Minh, and Charles de Gaulle"

I realise its a busy article but is there any reason why figures such as Michael Collins, Tom Barry, Charles de Gaulle, and the Cossacks are singled out? Yes its clear they had some effect, but are they "primary contributors to modern theories"? Who, for example, is quoting the views of the Cossacks on military operations?

While a top ten of notable thinkers on the theory side is valuable its strange that no military strategists who have written extensively on counter-insurgency are represented ie. the ones defining the theory and recording the trends. For example General Sir Frank Kitson or how about Carlos Marighella, or Robert Taber of "Flea" fame. These are the ones who sought out the trends and even created new trends by helping authorities overcome old strategies and forcing new models of behaviour.

Rather than a list "Primary contributors to modern theories of guerrilla war" which looks like a vanity of "my favorite guerilla" is it possible to cut out some of the deadwood in that list and represent some of the people who largely make sense of it all? Thought id raise it before making changes. Fluffy999 01:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think the paragraph belongs up at the top of the article myself and would prefer it moved to the 'Writings" section as a more logical place. Some names too seem doubtful as primary contributors. Charles DeGaulle for example seems rather doubtful. His primary claim to military fame is actually in conventional warfare, including being an early advocate of tank tactics. During WWII he spent most of his time outside of France, not fighting as a maquis resistance fighter against the Germans in France. He presided over the Algerian war as a politican not as a guerilla or anti-guerilla commander in the field.


 * The Cossacks are also doubtful. They used some guerilla tactics but then again they were always a fast horse-raiding cavalry force like many others centuries before them. They cannot be said to be "primary" contributors. If this is the case then the Numidians of North Africa under Hannibal deserve greater mention, not to mention about a dozen others over history. Also the para even includes the Ninja as "the primary modern and contemporary guerrilla warfare theorists.." . However I have left in the paragraph and am not moving it for now. But I have no objections if you moved it.Enriquecardova 03:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Soviet support in Latin America
I seriously question the claim that were soviet-supported guerrillas movements in Latin America. In fact, many soviet-aligned communist parties where blamed (by other leftist organization) because they denied their support to guerrilla movements in order to keep their support from the sovietic union.IsmaelPR 20:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not so sure. The Soviets did support numerous guerilla movements, sometimes directly, and sometime through proxy via places like Cuba. Che Guevarra enjoyed some Soviet support, as did the Shining Path guerillas in Peru, as did some others. Did the Soviets control or run the day to day operations, or pick the leadership? Of course not. Did they contribute arms, money, intelligence and expertise? Certainly yes.Enriquecardova 03:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Guerrilla redirect
The redirect says that “Guerrilla” redirects here, but when “Guerrilla” is put in the searcher, it comes up with a different page. Someone please try to fix this. Thanks,--Solo1234 22:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Michael Collins 'bloody mayhem' quote
I removed this piece:


 * Michael Collins of the Irish Republican Army, who orchestrated the Anglo-Irish war of 1919-1921, had a more succinct principle behind his campaign of intelligence, assassination, and propaganda: create "bloody mayhem", although admitted that his campaign was ultimately militarily unsuccessful in that it was two weeks from collapse at the time that the compromise Irish Free State was founded.{fact}

It quotes Collins and doesn't give a reference, I feel this information is based entirely on the movie about Collins, I've never read anywhere that he used the term 'bloody mayhem', he never wrote a doctrine or summation of how to run a guerrilla campaign. Also it can be debated that it was the British on the verge of collapse; not the Irish, again I've never read that he himself said they had two week aremaining, though Liam Neeson said it in the movie based on Collins' life. - 86.206.133.70 12:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall it, or something similar in the Tim Pat Coogan book; but I'll have to check it out. Also, anything in his Path to Freedom collection of essays? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.59.12.138 (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Roncevaux
In the first section of the article, Etimology, say: "Though the term "Guerrilla" did not exist in the time of the famous Battle of Roncevaux in 778, its depiction in the contemporary Annales Regii [1] sounds like a textbook example of this kind of warfare:" Althought is debatable this claim the question here is that don't add anything interesting to the article, at least here. There are dozens of examples of guerrilla warfare before that battle as can be seen in the section history. --Bentaguayre 17:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Size/Split?
In view of the article size, and suggestion when editing that it be split, how about extracting the "History" para into a seperate "History of Guerilla Warfare". Arrange examples chronologically: at present it goes to 2000 then back to 1674! And mention Francs-tireurs in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71 Hugo999 (talk) 04:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Reference to Irish Republican Army
It is clear that not many people have the knowledge to differenciate the OLD IRA with the Provisional IRA. To those that will reference the IRA; there have been a number of groups since the Republic of Irelands Independance which apply the term Irish Republican Army to themselves. To summarize: there is a difference in timescale because they are NOT the same organisation. Anyone who has made even a brief study of them should know that especially if they wish to contribute information regarding them. - there is a difference in tactics: the Old IRA never as far as anyone can recollect used bombs in order to complete their objective let alone carry out a strategy that is based as such. - difference in leadership. - difference in abilities. There are a number of reasons why a guerilla warfare strategy was not just military sense, but was commendable. The conflict of the War of Independance was only shortly after the Bloodbath of the Somme which had been costly among the drafted thousands of Irish people. Also, while the Irish Republican Army had nothing in terms of artillery pieces, the British Army had battalions dedicated to every variety of artillery; which they would have happilly used on any opposing conventional army. Likewise they had destroyed much of Dublin proper with the addition of a gun boat during the 1916 rising. (many military lessons had been learned from the Rising). They never had the access to the mortars, SAMs, RPGs, Semtex or heavy machine guns that the Provisional IRA had. - the democratic majority of what is now the Irish Republic wanted representation in a way that counted and autonomy. The majority of the North did not (which was why the entire united Ireland was not negotiable). - different objectives (PIRA - UNITED IRELAND)

In light of the many differences between the two organisations, there are no reasons to mistake one for the other, and I will many the appropriate references now to the current guerilla conflicts section. 86.43.71.254 (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

though it is obvious you know little of the subject on which you speak, on claring historical innaccuracy they was never a draft in Ireland every irish man that fought at the somme was a volunteer, perhaps if you studied Irish history a little more, try Richard English's excellent Irish Freedom a good overview for beginners. Or for the matter of Irish conscription in WW1 try this wiki article Conscription Crisis of 1918 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.104.36 (talk) 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, typed in a hurry. No draft. But plenty of Irish volunteers did die though. I am not new to the subject. Study the relevent sections that I have mentioned and you will see that I am right about the differences.

Boer war
Isn't the Second Boer War a major conflict missing from this list? Gnevin (talk) 16:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * See Guerrilla warfare (which is an alternative name for the Second Boer War) --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok that's fine, would of been a major shortcoming if it wasn't in this article somewhere Gnevin (talk) 00:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency over when it was first used
In the article it states the Dos de Mayo Uprising was the first time it occured, yet a sentence later it states it was used in the American Revolution. The uprising occured a few decades after the Revolution so why does it state that it was used first in Madrid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.57.32 (talk) 20:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Guerilla Info-Warfare
This is a technique whereby the general public checks information history in wikipedia articles for example. Then reverts the text. This allows large groups of people to continue reentering correct information when it has been deleted by public relations firms, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.94.176.22 (talk) 01:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Tom barry gdii.jpg
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success of counter-insurgency in iraq
we should mention more of the huge success of the coalition in  defeating the iraqi insurgency.the coaltion has defeated the iraqi insurgency by a  mixed bag of  killing off top insurgent leaders and arresting others for more info,by paying others off and by playing off one insurgent group against another.for example only five american troops were killed by enemy action in november and 7 in december thats 12 in two months,by far the lowest toll during the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rioboyz500 (talk • contribs) 07:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Too Long
I feel the need to point out that this article is excessively long in length. Perhaps paraphrasing would help? Luna Rain HowLCry 02:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Need mor information in etemology section
Are the words Geurilla and Gorilla connected joined by a common root word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.12.165.254 (talk) 20:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Moving sections to their respective pages
Moving 'History' to History of guerrilla warfare. Also moving Strategy megasection to Strategy and tactics of guerrilla warfare, perhaps it would be better to divide that into two pages, one on strategy, one on tactics. I'll leave that up to later editors. Thus, I'll turn this page into a general overview on everything related to guerrilla warfare. Obviously, if you don't like it, revert it, I probably won't stay very dedicated to this, I'm more of a passing-by editor. - Dalta (talk) 00:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Why is this paragraph in the lead?
''An example of such suicidal military actions was the Battle of Lemos, on April 20 1809, which delayed the arrival of Marshal Michel Ney's forces to the rescue of Vigo. This resulted in the loss of this important city and harbor, but in retaliation the French massacred the civilian population on Lemos .''

The guerrilla army uses ambush (stealth and surprise) and mobility (draw enemy forces to terrain unsuited to them) in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory. ... has no mention of suicide tactics, which as far as I know are not an integral part of guerilla war at all.
 * The one previous sentence on tactics:
 * the Battle of Lemos is not explained
 * nor is Marshal Michel Ney
 * nor Vigo

In short, it doesn't meet criteria for WP:LEAD. I propose either deleting this paragraph or replacing it with one on famous successful guerilla actions: 1959 Cuba, Chinese Red Army, etc.--BoogaLouie (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

(The paragraph was added by a Qqtacpn (no user page) 2 May 2009)  --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The paragraph has been deleted since it was a hoax. Edward321 (talk) 23:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Johanne Galan
I've changed the anglicised name for it's actual name in Spanish (Juana Galán), since she was Spanish and not a queen/pope or somebody whose name is translated to every language due to some convention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.60.100 (talk) 11:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

IRA in the lead
Revert of my edit by RepublicanJacobite. "the IRA successfully forced the Brits out of most of Ireland; that was a success." Is Northern Ireland now part of the Republic of Ireland? At best the IRA belongs somewhere else in the article, not in the lead. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe you are talking about the wrong IRA. O Fenian (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Which IRA was it that united Ireland under a republic? --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not see the relevance of your question. You seem to be implying that if the Anglo-Irish Treaty negotiations resulted in a 32 county republic then the IRA's tactics were successful, otherwise they were not. Perceived failure of political negotiations has no bearing as to whether the tactics were militarily successful or not. O Fenian (talk) 18:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We are talking about something significant enough to put in the lead of an article on guerilla war. The Chinese, Cuban, and Vietnamese guerrilla wars ended with the defeat of the government forces by the guerrillas and the takeover of the government by the guerillas. The IRA troubles ended with what? A council or something including both Eire and the north? How many IRA, or Sinn Fein or whatever hold elected office now in Ireland?
 * Aside from the issue of whether their warfare was truly guerrilla, if we mention the IRA in the lead we should mention the Columbians and the El Salvador, the Phillipines, .... the list would include dozens of groups ... and it would be ridiculous. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You still do not even know which IRA you are even talking about, despite the IRA under discussion along with the war they took part in being linked in the article at the time. A war which was the first successful guerrilla war of liberation in the 20th century and inspired countless other groups to follow their tactics. Yet for some reason the KLA are more important and were successful?! O Fenian (talk) 01:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Your examples, Louie, are off the mark. This demonstrates, as O Fenian has said, that you do not know what IRA you are talking about.  Until you do, and are clear about what we are discussing here, this conversation is moot.  The IRA, in this case, the "Old IRA," fought a successful guerrilla war, led by Michael Collins, which forced the Brits to the table.  The example of the IRA inspired countless future guerrillas, including Ho Chi Minh. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant though one of your questions was as to whether the IRA's guerrilla tactics were successful, I shall answer it anyway. "How many IRA, or Sinn Fein or whatever hold elected office now in Ireland?" Taking a basic and possibly overly simplistic view that Fine Gael represent the pro-Treaty faction and that Fianna Fáil represent the anti-Treaty faction, the political parties descended from the IRA/Sinn Féin of the time have held power in Ireland for over 75 years. O Fenian (talk) 17:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Trimming lead
Trimmed a mass of badly written, unsourced, contentious text in the lead from this edit. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

George washington and the American revolution
I have thought consistently that George Washington and his later tactics in the American revolution were guerrilla tactics and should be added as an early example of such tactics, as he tried to avoid direct confrontation with the British army and tried to tire them out, while also gaining support from foreign nations such as France. The political unrest against the British could be considered as completion of the political wing of guerrilla warfare. Could we add this as an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.72.95.76 (talk) 23:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

World War II
Note that the Chetniks collaborated with the Axis forces, rather than engaged them in guerrilla warfare. It is also inconsistent with other Wikipedia articles regarding Chetniks.

In WWII section: "...In Yugoslavia, guerrillas under General Draža Mihailović, known as Chetniks, and communist guerrilla under Josip Broz Tito known as Partisans, engaged the Germans in a guerrilla war...."

Wikipedia source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito

In WW II leader section: "...After the Partisans managed to endure and avoid these intense Axis attacks between January and June 1943, and the extent of Chetnik collaboration became evident, Allied leaders switched their support from Draža Mihailović to Tito...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.137.55.211 (talk) 09:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Counter-guerrilla warfare
The section "Counter-guerrilla warfare" is one of the worst I have read on Wikipedia. Not all guerilla warfare involves an insurgency. For example one of the images shows soldiers of a Boer commando. The Boer War was between three sovereign states (two Boer republics) and the British Empire. Guerilla warfare may be a tactic employed by insurgents, but it can also be a tactic employed by a weaker recognised power (by definition an insurgency is conducted by rebels who are not recognised as a power). I suggest that the whole section on counter insurgency is replaced with a one paragraph summary to introduce the topic counter insurgency rather than the very large section currently in the article. Much more emphasis needs to be given to the the specific topic of guerilla warfare and the current format discuses just how weak this article is by going off on a tangent. -- PBS (talk) 09:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * At the moment 14,362 characters in this article relate to counter insurgency out of a total of 35,603. The section should be a summary of the Counter insurgency article with specific mention of any specific methods that have been developed to counter guerilla warfare. It probably does not need to be more than a paragraph long. -- PBS (talk) 16:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. The section "Classic guidelines" must be placed in the Robert Grainger Ker Thompson article. The section here should be a summary of the Counter insurgency article. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 00:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem
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Partisan versus guerrilla warfare
I thought this article was about guerrilla warfare? Why does it have so many items on partisan warfare? While there are some similar tactics, those are two different concepts, please don't further obfuscate them! --154.69.27.58 (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * A guerrilla and a partisan are two different persons? Since when? A guerrilla is someone who has smaller forces available and uses them to fight the one who has the larger forces. A partisan is a guerrilla who is involved in a retaliation fight or some resistance military action. So the word "partisan" actually coveres the word "guerrilla". 192.162.150.105 (talk) 10:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation and misspelling
Perhaps draw attention to the fact that the word is invariably pronounced in English to rhyme with 'gorilla', and is very often misspelled as 'guerilla' - so often that the Merriam-Webster dictionary now apparently gives this as an alternative spelling.213.127.210.95 (talk) 13:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Fabius Maximus
In Fabius Maximus, we write:
 * He is widely regarded as the father of guerrilla warfare due to his, at the time, novel strategy of targeting enemy supply lines in light of being largely outnumbered.

Perhaps he deserves some mention in this article as well? --causa sui (talk) 18:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Science of guerrilla warfare by TE Lawrence
I think we could improve the article by adding a small section about the guerrilla warfare fought in WW1 against the Germans (Turks).

There is an article on "Lawrence of Arabia" which this article should link to. I also think we could improve the article by adding a small section about the guerrilla warfare he was involved in.

I am not comfortable changing Wikipedia myself so I enclose the reference below and the suggestion above.

An authoritative source is: Guerrilla Warfare. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 10, Page 950, GUERRILLA; Science of guerrilla warfare By T.E.La. (Thomas Edward Lawrence)(Lawrence of Arabia) The article was added in 1929 and removed in 1950.

Thank you for your attention,

Evan Eehrenh (talk) 01:44, 16 September 2016 (UTC)


 * That looks like a primary source given how old it is, so I doubt we can use that for WW1. However, there isn't a mention of Lawrence's work at all even though he wrote about this subject at that time. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
 * So go ahead and add at minimum a statement about his work. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Eehrenh (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It is a primary source. He is writing about guerrilla warfare theory using his experiences as example. The article is the best explanation of the subject I have seen. I wish I could find a copy on line so I could cut and paste or a link. I will do what I can to put together some stuff. Would you be willing to comment on it please?
 * Eehrenh (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Look what I just found:
 * Check it out, the link goes to page 61 where it talks about his work. I haven't read it fully, but it may be useful for your addition. Consider expanding using it then. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:12, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Petit Guerre
It seems likely that 'la guerilla' derived from the French term 'la petite guerre', as used by Maurice de Saxe in his posthumously published notes 'Mes Reveries,' (1757), and which was common use by professional soldiers from the mid-C18th onwards, French being the intellectual and professional lingua franca (pun unavoidabe) in Europe at that time.JF42 (talk) 20:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Shivaji
See Talk:Shivaji. In short: source contradicts this very idea, in any case, we can't say stuff like "pioneer" etc. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 16:35, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Please
Can you move the page to Gorilla Warfare? It’s funny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.229.209.130 (talk) 16:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Use of children and relationship to terrorism
Hi AaronGray and all...

I've restored deleted content on the use of children and the relationship to terrorism.

AaronGray's additional info explaining the differences between guerrilla and terrorist groups seems good to me and that's still there, but under the terrorism section.

My reasons for restoring the content:
 * Guerrilla groups often use children extensively and it's worth stating.
 * Guerrilla warfare is normally different from terrorism, as AaronGray points out, but there is a relationship between the two kinds of group, which I believe needs explaining here. ISIS is both a guerrilla group and a terror group, for example.
 * At the same time, it's important to ensure the reader doesn't assume that all guerrilla groups are terror groups - this was why I added that section in the first place and the text makes that clear, I think. AaronGray's additions usefully clarify it further.
 * The sources are valid and reliable.

AaronGray - let's avoid edit-warring - please discuss here before removing the content again. I'd also like to hear what other editors think - any thoughts?

Thanks

Fugitivedave (talk) 07:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Still, this is not some article about terrorism and definition of terrorism and use of children by terrorist orgs. This is Guerrilla warfare article. You FD got sourced content about difference between guerrilla and terrorist orgs. Also if you want to know all national liberation movements were guerrilla groups in WW2 so nazis called them terrorists and bandits. AaronGray (talk) 08:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding. The four points I made above still stand, I think. In addition, the reference to the use of children cites their use by armed groups, and is not specific to terror groups. I don't know what FD stands for - sorry. I've asked for a third opinion to see if we can resolve this. In the meantime I've restored the deleted content again. Fugitivedave (talk) 08:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * G'day. Just popping over from Milhist in response to the ping. It seems to me that a community view would be better than a third opinion from Milhist coords, so I suggest starting a neutrally worded RfC on this issue. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Still your content and "sources" are strictly about terrorism and "definition" of terrorism not about guerrila warfare article and you even made sub article with "relationship" to terrorism making reference to all guerrilla movements are in some "relationship" tp terrorism. I understand to you work as promotioner of some group and paid for also sockpuppet but what is too much is too much AaronGray (talk) 08:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

My previous post about user Fugitivedave, just to be clear. AaronGray (talk) 08:52, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi Aaron. I don't doubt that the subsection on Relationship to Terrorism could be improved - it just shouldn't be removed and the relevant, sourced content should stay. I think your additional comments on the differences between guerrilla and terror groups are useful and should also stay. So I hope we can sort this out and improve the article in the process. Meanwhile, I've set up a request for comment - it'd be good to hear what others think about this. To be clear, I'm not a sockpuppet - there was a misunderstanding about that, which was cleared up, details are on my talk page and the links from there. I also don't edit on behalf of any group, nor am I paid to do so. Fugitivedave (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

RFC: Use of children and relationship to terrorism
Fugitivedave (talk) 09:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Should the Guerrilla warfare page mention the use of children by armed groups?
 * Should it mention the relationship of GW to terrorism?
 * Are the sources used for these edits appropriate?
 * Are the edits sufficiently relevant to the main topic?

Discussion
Research internet, it is easy, there is esseys,articles, who clearly made difference about terrorism and guerrila warfare. This is Guerrila warfare page!. One good essey with a lot of sources is DANIEL MESSELKEN "TERRORISM AND GUERRILLA WARFARE − A COMPARATIVE ESSAY" it has more then 60 pages and a lot of literature sources is used for that. It is easy to find. AaronGray (talk) 10:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Fugitivedave, could you clarify some of the questions in the RFC? Which edits and sources are specifically at issue? Rosguill (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Setting that aside, based on the content in the current version of the article, it seems like the mention of child soldiers is largely irrelevant: if they are used by both guerrilla and non-guerrilla forces, then there's no reason to identify them with specifically guerrilla forces, unless there is a consensus in reliable sources that guerrilla forces overwhelmingly rely on child soldiers (a conclusion that cannot be drawn from the article as it stands right now). Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the terrorism section accomplishes anything in the article as it stands now, although it could likely be improved such that it would be a useful section. As of this writing, the section on terrorism vaguely implies that the opponent of a guerrilla force may denounce them as a terrorist organization due to political expedience (whether or not it is an accurate label), but it doesn't actually say this. Additionally, the comments about "some terrorist groups" are hopelessly vague. If there are reliable sources that explicitly state that guerrilla groups are often denounced as terrorist groups, then we should include it in the article and include an analysis comparing and contrasting guerrilla tactics against terrorism. Otherwise, there's no reason to bring up terrorism. Rosguill (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I think so!Osian 2007 (talk) 09:38, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Charles due ghale
how is he a pionerr of a gurrila warfare

De Gaulle was the war undersecretary during WWII when France was occupied by Germany, so to fight back, he used guerilla warfare. Does that answer your question? ThePRoGaMErGD (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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Recognised government vs. incumbent authority
IP, the lead to Insurgency opens with:

An insurgency is a violent rebellion against authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents (lawful combatants). An insurgency can be fought via counter-insurgency warfare, and may also be opposed by measures to protect the population and by political and economic actions of various kinds, as well as propaganda aimed at undermining the insurgents' claims against the incumbent regime. As a concept, insurgency's nature is ambiguous.

I think that wording phrasing the insurgency as a revolt against authority or incumbency is more precise than revolt against a recognised government. To give counterexamples that illustrate the point, conflict between the PLO and Israeli forces in occupied Palestine prior to the signing of the Oslo Accords, between Nazi Germany and partisans in Eastern Europe, or between ZANU/ZAPU and Rhodesian forces are all examples of guerrilla warfare conducted against states with limited-to-no recognition of de jure authority over the territory in question. signed,Rosguill talk 04:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * On second thought, looking at the at-issue content more, I think there's a problem with the current section on a broader scale. It's lifted directly from a previous revision of Counter-insurgency, and doesn't take into account that not all guerilla warfare takes the form of insurgency (sometimes it's just irregular warfare in the context of a larger war, e.g. during WWII between various Chinese forces and Japan or certain partisan groups in the Eastern Front). I think that this section is in need of a significant rewrite. signed,Rosguill talk 04:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think to we should take in our account modern law and status of a recognised combatant especially to that is more detailed formulated after WW2 and especially with the additional protocols. Insurgency nowdays is mostly connected with a unlawful combatants and violent non~state actors. But the main problem is, this is Guerrilla warfare article and not about insurgency so maybe that whole section should be removed and focus should be kept about guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla is more wide thing than any insurgency. You gave some examples but there is numerous examples and many recent and active, about terrorists organisations who made/make insurgency for example Boko Haram insurgency, Al qaeda in Yemen, Al Shabab insurgency in Somalia and numerous other against the recognised governments of that countries etc. Now that type of an insurgencies are in one big majority. Examples what you gave were recognised in many cases by at least some countries and usially by huge majority of countries as a national liberation strugle participants and resistance movements not as insurgents but Islamic state insurgencies, Al Qaeda insurgencies, Boko haram etc, are not recognised and dont get that kind of status. So ""recently"" I think to 90% maybe more of all insurgencies are made against recognised governments and in many cases it is made by violent non state actors who are designated as terrorists. So we should be careful. Maybe that about "an incumbent authority" can work or that section to be removed and just linked in see also or so. But we should be careful in general.178.221.98.92 (talk) 05:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Reading through the whole section more carefully, I think that it is a digression that mostly just confuses the reader. Counter-insurgency is related to guerilla warfare, but it's the level of relation that belongs in a See also section, not taking up half the article. signed,Rosguill talk 07:24, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. 178.221.98.92 (talk) 08:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

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