Talk:Hammarby Hockey

Notability
I removed the notability tag. I think the club has shown that they are notable. Plus I've added sources from national papers/Swedish mainstream media/etc. — VikingViolinist  | Talk 21:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I removed the self-published tag as well, as I believe I've removed the offending material. Vikingviolinist (talk) 22:31, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. The fact that Bajen Fans Hockey has received greater headlines in newspapers such as Aftonbladet and Expressen, hints that the article is indeed notable. Hey  Mid  (contribs) 20:51, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

League status - should it be the league for this season or the confirmed league for next season?
I've raised this minor issue at WT:HOCKEY. Everybody is welcome to comment. Hey Mid  (contribs) 21:35, 22 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've already stated this elsewhere, but just so it's here as well. "Bajen will play 2013-14 in Division 1" does not imply doubt or uncertainty.  It just reflects the reality that until 2012-13 is over, Bajen is not a Division 1 team. Not yet anyway. —  SwedishPenguin  | Talk 18:28, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Name of article
I've moved this for the time being to Hammarby IF (hockey). The full name of the organization is Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening, but that full name isn't one that people will write on any sort of regular basis. The article on the previous incarnation of Hammarby's hockey club was titled Hammarby IF Hockey, but since that isn't actually the name of the organization, I'd hesitate to call it that, especially with a capital "H". As an example, Djurgården's club articles are using the format Djurgårdens IF (*insert name of sport*)...though not consistently, (e.g "Djurgårdens IF Bandy"). Given this, and given that the team will generally be called Hammarby IF in standings/articles/etc leaving it clear from context what sport they're talking about, my first preference for the name of the article ended up being "Hammarby IF (hockey)". My second choice would be the full "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening". My distant third choice would be "Hammarby IF Ice Hockey Club", a translation of the FULL name of the organization. Thoughts? —  SwedishPenguin  &#124; Talk 21:42, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with this move. While I don't dispute the fact that the club is now named Hammarby IF, "Ishockeyförening" basically means "Hockey Club" in English, and we usually include "Hockey" in the article title. For example, while the article for Djurgården's team is named Djurgårdens IF Hockey, I'm certain that the club is actually named "Djurgårdens IF Ishockeyförening", but it's too long to write and it's Swedish. In this article (from bajenfanshockey.se), "Hammarby IF Hockey" or "Hammarby Hockey" is mentioned four times. Also, before the club rename, it was named "Bajen Fans Ishockeyförening", but the club was generally referred to as "Bajen Fans Hockey". Note: I'm not against you editing this article, not at all (you may remember I questioned the "will play" phrasing). Hey  Mid  (contribs) 22:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd still prefer "Hammarby IF (hockey)" over "Hammarby Hockey" or "Hammarby IF Hockey", mainly on the basis that neither of the latter two is the actual name of the organization, and putting the "hockey" in parenthesis makes that clear. —  SwedishPenguin  &#124; Talk 22:57, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that what we also should have done when the club was named "Bajen Fans Ishockeyförening (IF)", then? I believe the Swedish Ice Hockey Association (SIHA) will just give the club the name "Hammarby IF", because they did so with the former Hammarby Hockey, and we know it's ice hockey. But I believe the goal was to re-take the former name of Hammarby's ice hockey section, i.e. Hammarby IF Hockey or Hammarby Hockey. And I think Hockeyettan will refer to the team as "Hammarby Hockey" per this source. And I'm not entirely convinced that the former Hammarby Hockey was actually named Hammarby Hockey. At least I believe we should move the article to "Hammarby IF (ice hockey)", because hockey is not the sport ice hockey in particular. Hey  Mid  (contribs) 23:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) regarding the name of the original article, I think it should have been "Bajen Fans IF" since the full name of the organization was "Bajen Fans Ishockeyförening" and it is common practice to shorten that. unfortunately you can't call the article "Hammarby IF IF" because, well, you know, no one will ever write that. 2) re: the name "Hammarby Hockey", while Hockeyettan mentioned it, and I'm sure it will be used often enough colloquially, it's not the name of the organization.  It's possible that the old Hammarby hockey team was legally called "Hammarby Hockey" since the football team (the A-team and J-teams at least) is legally called Hammarby Fotboll. But in this case the name the organization has given themselves according to the announcement on their website is "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening".  I'd be open to the article being titled "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening" actually, because if we are going to specify "Hammarby IF (ice hockey)" that's almost as long anyway. —  SwedishPenguin  &#124; Talk 10:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I've moved the article to Hammarby IF (ice hockey). At the English Wikipedia it's standard practice for ice hockey-related articles to be disambiguated by writing "(ice hockey)". And, hockey is a family of various sports including, but not limited to, ice hockey. Also, contrary to what you say, in the Hammarby Fotboll article the full name in the infobox is written as "Hammarby Idrottsförening Fotbollsförening". It's the same form as "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening". Also, on Wikipedia it's a good idea to have consistency between different page titles. In fact, this article is the only article not to be named in the form "Hammarby IF [sport]" (see Hammarby IF (disambiguation)). "Hammarby IF Hockey" would retain that consistency. But it's up to me to start a move request (RM) if I'm not satisfied with the current article/page title. Cheers, Hey  Mid  (contribs) 08:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * •Good that you moved it to HIF (ice hockey). That's better. •Just like to point out that Hammarby's departments are not consistent with naming, so there is no reason why the wiki articles should be.  Hammarby Fotboll IS actually the name of the organization in question.  "Hammarby Fotboll" runs the A and J teams the then "Hammarby IF Fotbollsförening" is the name of the not-for-profit which owns 51% of Hammarby Fotboll, and also is responsible for running the youth organization.  So in that case, writing "Hammarby IF FF" in the infobox should probably be changed to "Hammarby Fotboll" since that is the legal name of the entity competing in Allsvenskan, not "Hammarby IF FF".  In this case, the name of the team is not "Hammarby Hockey" but "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening". •If "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening" is seen to be a better name for this article than "Hammarby IF (ice hockey)" then I'm totally open to that. —  SwedishPenguin  &#124; Talk 22:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, on second thought… after reading and considering WP:OFFICIAL, combined with the fact that the organization's Facebook page and twitter feed (links to these are blocked, but both are called "Hammarby Hockey"), and Hammarby Fotboll and Hockeyettan and media outlets (Expressen) are referring to the organization as "Hammarby Hockey", it seems that "Hammarby IF Ishockeyförening" is a pretty good example of what WP:OFFICIAL means when it refers to official names that "are never used except in legal or other esoteric documents". So I'd be in favor of renaming the article "Hammarby Hockey" . And given that there seems to be a two-wikipedian-consensus here, I'll request admin assistance to do so. —  SwedishPenguin  &#124; Talk 21:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm actually very surprised that you've now changed your mind and decided to agree with me on the matter. :) Note that I'm in no way against you, and I greatly appreciate your work on Wikipedia. What you're stating above is basically what I've been thinking as well. Though perhaps it would be good if we dropped the "IF" part of the Hammarby IF Hockey (1921–2008) article, so both articles are named "Hammarby Hockey". For what it's worth, you can also move the Swedish Wikipedia article to the new title as well if you wish. Cheers, Hey  Mid  (contribs) 09:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

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Merger discussion
Hi fellow Wikipedians,

I'm proposing a merger of Hammarby Hockey (1921–2008) into Hammarby Hockey. The club went bankrupt in 2008 and thus the name Hammarby IF was unable for usage in five years due to Swedish law, but the club (that was run by supporters and had a different name at first) are once again a part of Hammarby IF (a multi-sports club with their own board) since 2013. I think it's highly unnecessary to have two different articles, since this is not a "franchise" that has moved cities like in the NHL. It's more fitting to compare it with the numerous Italian football clubs going bankrupt and then starting again in the lower divisions under a slightly different club name. In those cases, we do not create different Wikipedia-articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derby 95 (talk • contribs)


 * This is an interesting one. Even with teams in the same city that have the same name in the ice hockey subject we use different articles as they are different entities that happen to have the same name. So from that aspect we would definitely have them as two separate articles. But if they are back under the Hammarby IF club that makes it a bit more tricky. I am undecided at the moment but leaning towards keeping seperate to make it clear they were separate things. -DJSasso (talk) 17:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot for the input! It is a bit tricky, indeed. But Hammarby IF as a sports club is an umbrella organisation (quite common in Sweden) that rarely accept new departments – and the outspoken goal from the start on both parties was to integrate the supporter's initiative into Hammarby when the time limit of five years had ran out. In terms of honours, for example, the Swedish Championship titles from the last century are officially credited to one and the same club, Hammarby IF – and definitely not two different ones. I think the episode where the club was ran by supporter's could be easily explained and expanded on in a merged article. As said, I think this should be compared more with Italian football clubs rather than other hockey franchises that share the same name and re-rise as phoenix clubs, like you mentioned. -Derby_95 (talk) 00:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The standard practice is to have a standalone article for each of these clubs since they are different organizations. The original Hammarby Hockey was dissolved before the new one was started in 2008. Otherwise the Winnipeg Jets and the Winnipeg Jets (1972–1996) would have the same article, for example. Hey  mid  (contribs) 21:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)