Talk:Harmonic seventh chord

Barbershop, dominant, and harmonic sevenths
I'm nearly convinced that the barbershop seventh is not the same as the dominant seventh, but is better called the harmonic seventh, being in just intonation. Asked about it at Barbershop music talk page. Pfly 09:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The harmonic seventh chord is not the dominant seventh in Equal temperament or Just intonation. The harmonic seventh chord contains the harmonic seventh, almost a full quarter tone flatter than both the equal and just minor seventh. Harmonic seventh clarifies:




 * Harmonic seventh chord
 * align="right" | 1 ||to
 * align="right" | 5/4 (386.31) ||to
 * align="right" | 3/2 (701.96) ||to
 * align="right" | 7/4 (968.83)
 * Pythagorean dominant seventh
 * align="right" | 1 ||to
 * align="right" | 81/64 (407.82) ||to
 * align="right" | 3/2 (701.96) ||to
 * align="right" | 16:9 (996.09)
 * Equal-tempered dominant seventh
 * align="right" | ||
 * align="right" | (400.00) ||
 * align="right" | (700.00) ||
 * align="right" | (1000.00)
 * Just-tempered dominant seventh
 * align="right" | 1 ||to
 * align="right" | 5/4 (386.31) ||to
 * align="right" | 3/2 (701.96) ||to
 * align="right" |  9/5 (1017.60)
 * }
 * align="right" | 5/4 (386.31) ||to
 * align="right" | 3/2 (701.96) ||to
 * align="right" |  9/5 (1017.60)
 * }


 * The harmonic seventh chord includes the pitches of third, fifth, and seventh harmonics. It can end pieces, whereas the dominant seventh has tension to resolve and can be used in key changes.


 * Maybe we should merge this article into Harmonic seventh? --gwc (talk) 05:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

As a barbershopper and a composer of classical music it is my opinion that the "harmonic seventh chord" is nothing more than a dominant seventh chord sung in tune with the overtone series. If you analyze how this chord functions in barbershop music it functions as a dominant seventh chord (calling a chord a dominant seventh chord in fact gives the chord a function). It is also my opinion that the articles of the harmonic seventh and harmonic seventh chord do not have enough notoriety to warrant their own articles. The use of the minor seventh interval tuned to a 7:4 ratio should simply be mentioned as a version of the interval/chord; and the minor seventh article should simply recognize that the minor 7th is an interval that requires different tunings (if using just intonation) depending on the purpose and context. Besides tuning the dominant 7th chord differently than a piano (or other tempered instruments), there is almost no difference on the chord's use within the barbershop repertoire.Composerjude (talk) 05:43, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Backwards flat ()
Anyone able to explain the meaning of a backwards flat sign?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgia guy (talk • contribs) 09:04, 19 April 2011


 * See 'half flat' at Flat (music), and my subsequent changes to this article. Hyacinth (talk) 10:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If a backwards flat is half a flat and a flat lowers a note 100 cents (one semitone or half tone), a backwards, or half flat, lowers a note 50 cents (half semitone or quarter tone).
 * C to D(♮) is one tone (two semitones) or 200 cents.
 * C to D is a quarter-tone (half semitone) or 50 cents.
 * C to D♭ is a half tone (one semitone) or 100 cents.
 * C to D is three-quarter tones (one and a half semitones) or 150 cents.
 * Hyacinth (talk) 12:48, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

why is the tempered one the first example?
Firstly, it would appear to somewhat go against the spirit of the name "harmonic seventh", as its pitches don't come exactly from the harmonic series. Secondly, choosing 24-EDO to approximate 4:5:6:7 is pretty bad as you cannot use the closest approximation to every interval in the chord. 4:5 is closest as C-E, and 4:7 as C-B, but E-B is not as close to 5:7 as E-B♭. It's inconsistent. So I think the just verson ought to be the first illustration in the article. Double sharp (talk) 00:52, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure about my two recent edits (Youtube link and Pure-tone renditions).
The new section Special:Permalink/811271978 contains new files that I added to commons, namely the image Barbersharp 12TET and 4-5-6-7 audacity.png and the ogg file Barbersharp 12TET and 4-5-6-7 natural.ogg. I am not 100% sure that this isn't too much POV or original research (for example, the article already cites an ogg that displays piano versions of 12TET versus just tuning -- put pure tones aren't really musical instruments and the posting pure tone renditions implicitly claims that pure tone versions are relevant) If this is a problem, I am more than happy to move it to Wikiversity. Some of my students want to add vibrato to the just version using audacity, so an external sister-link might be in order here. A

Also, I don't know the WP policy on links to Youtube videos. My understanding is that there is currently no set policy on that (see WP:YT). Keep in mind that I am accustomed to writing on Wikiversity, where all standards are so much looser. I have no objection to moving this stuff there if the WP editors so choose.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

augment'd sixth
it's an augmented sixth isn't it??

take the sixth 5/3 and add chromatic semitone 21/20 it forms 7/4. A+#=A# isn't it? so it's not seventh... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:119F:21D:7900:CCDF:DEB0:1B5F:E210 (talk) 09:06, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Comparison section
Does Audacity really need to be described in that much detail?? I'll be bold and try to revise it for now, but...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_seventh_chord#Comparison_with_equal_temperament Tyris776 (talk) 04:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

12tone Citation
Citation number 4 cites 12tone as saying that the harmonic seventh was used in the blues, and while he does provide rationalization for this, he says that the strongest claim for this is made by Wikipedia. I don't know Wikipedia's policy on citations in full, but I think a circular citation is not very reliable, and the citation should be removed. Sbcloatitr (talk) 18:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I would tend to agree- Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia for that matter) properly speaking, is not a "source" but is rather a compendium of sources- It, therefore, follows that any source that uses Wikipedia itself as a source is not a reliable source- but rather sources need to have information independent of Wikipedia, outside the context of using an internal link to link to articles that discuss a parenthetical point to the article in greater depth. 98.178.191.34 (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Citation needed Tag November 2021
The article states "It is suggested that the harmonic seventh on the dominant not be used as a suspension..." However, multiple and voluminous sources on basic music theory state that suspensions take on two forms- being the suspend-3-add-2 form and the suspend-3-add-4 form. Therefore, it follows that the form suspend-3-add-7 form would be extremely rare in the context of music theory in general. Therefore, the source seems rather suspect as an authority on the subject, and the citation needed tag was inserted, because a second source is needed in order to confirm the information as true and correct information. Otherwise, this may need to be edited for clarification and more concrete understanding in view of music theory in general. 98.178.191.34 (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)