Talk:Harvard Square

"Shopping area" accurate?
I don't think it's strictly accurate to describe it as a "shopping area". --Daniel C. Boyer 19:14, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"pit brats" ->" pit rats"
I've just changed 'pit brats' to 'pit rats', mostly because I've never heard the former and I remember us calling ourselves the latter. If I was wrong, well. Sorry. El Juno 02:27, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Hot dang wikipedia is cool. Agree on the pit rats, that's the best term.  Harvard Square is an iconic spot to many university students, Boston residents, and figures in Cambridge history, so it'd be great to see it featured.  Shane Curcuru 21 Oct 2005

Go for Featured Article status?
I thought it would be a great idea if we could improve this towards featured article status. There's a lot of good work here and on related pages. Good luck! Sdedeo 23:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Political and religious preachers
I wonder if someone local might add a bit about the various fringe religious and political street preachers whom I've often seen there. The ones I've seen most frequently (on rare visits over the past five or so years) are the Revolutionary Communist Party USA and a rather scruffy-looking Roman Catholic preacher with a bullhorn. --FOo 08:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Cambridge Artists' Cooperative
Hi, I am a co-owner of Cambridge Artists' Cooperative, a gallery of contemporary America fine crafts, located on church street in Harvard Square. We have been in business for 18 years and I would love it if you could include us in your article on Harvard Square.

Please contact me for more information!

Thanks,

Karen Kelley

kkwired@msn.com

617-661-1449

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.29.121 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC).

404 error "Boston Squares" link
Hey guys, the "Boston Squares" link under Related Links gave me a 404 error. 130.64.128.191 21:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Working as of this date. Lentower 04:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Globalization and 'Ivytrash'
Um, what's with all the past sense shit? globalization is here so get over it, ivytrash! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.163.155.65 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I am not Ivy anything. That was my home.  I was born and raised 6 blocks from Harvard Square, and it was (once) the greatest place in this country.  I am not interested in 'globalization'.  I look at the square and see the smoking ruin of my home.  When this happens to you, I hope globalization is comfort enough for you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mthai66 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Ferranti-Dege status?
Last time I was in Harvard Square (a few months ago) Ferranti-Dege was alive and well. Can anyone confirm whether it has indeed closed, or if it's still open? 68.248.3.107 01:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)clnfox


 * Sorry, it's closed, as of late April I think. More bad news:  so is the Greenhouse. Scolbath 22:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Odd choices for businesses in the notable establishments section
I added several notable locations to the appropriate section a few months ago and they were removed dismissively. Rather than start an edit war, I'm asking a third party to assess it. As it is the 'notable' locations includes a music/comics/novelty chain store (just one of 30 locations, but it gets mentioned twice) and a Barnes and Noble (the Coop, sadly), but doesn't mention the two oldest retail businesses in the Square (Cardullo's and Pinocchio's) or the unique independent record stores (3) and comic book shops (2) which actually contribute to the local culture and identity of the area. It also lists every book store except for one: Raven, specializing in non-fiction. Honestly, it may or may not be notable, but doesn't it seem off and uncomfortably discriminatory to list five, but not all six? It should either be pared down or completed. Anyway, at the very least I hope Pinocchio's gets returned; I think many locals would agree that it's the most iconic business in the Square. ''[The person who removed my additions did so on the grounds that I was biased by my 'favorite hangout spots'. For what it's worth, I haven't ever been inside several of those businesses; I just live in and know the area. I realize my impressions of importance will be subjective, but I believe the current list is much worse, since it reflects a lack of authentic knowledge of the area and a disconcerting bias towards chain stores, simply because they have blue links.]'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.50.36  (talk • contribs)  09:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I tend to think that there are already too many individual stores listed. As for age, Cardullo's (~1950) is nowhere near the oldest retail business in the Square: cf. Schoenhof's, Leavitt & Peirce, and the Coop, which were all founded in the 19th century.  As for Pinocchio's, surely you jest -- it opened in the 1970's, after Passim, Colonial Drug, Dickson Bros, Gnomon Copy, Felix's, Out of Town, Bartley's, Pamplona, etc.  In any case, the goal should not be to list all the individual stores, but to characterize the environment; individual stores should only be mentioned if there's something especially notable about them, or if they're useful to paint the picture. --Macrakis (talk) 14:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Macrakis points. And wonder why  98.216.50.36  believes that blue links are influencing editor's choices? (Is  98.216.50.36  making an assumption, or can  98.216.50.36  point to hard data?)  The list would be enhanced by adding cited  (established YEAR(  where age helps explains what is special about this area. Lentower (talk) 22:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I've noticed since that many of these establishments do have established dates, when listed in the other sections. Lentower (talk) 21:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * In November, seeing the list proliferating, I removed seven redlinked items, and made certain comments in the edit summary, intended generally, and not directed at 98.216.50.36  or anyone else in particular.  My impression is that there is a wiki-wide policy that looks for an acceptable article as evidence of notability; also, hidden notes in the Notable establishments section cite the policy at WP:NOTTRAVEL (specifically point #2) against over-inclusiveness.  The IP editor might consider creating articles on additional establishments.  If the articles survive (which they will if there is sufficient evidence of notability), they can then be linked to. Redlinks are generally not a good idea unless planning to write the articles in the near term.  Hertz1888 (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with mentioning things that don't have their own articles if there is a good reason for it. It might make perfect sense to mention that Harvard Square still has a tobacconist, Leavitt and Pierce, with a 19th-century storefront including a wooden Indian, without its making sense to write an article specifically about that store, and without having to link the store name (which would be a redlink). --Macrakis (talk) 23:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Surely. Mentioning them is one thing, but listing them in a section labeling them as "notable", without sourcing or other support for that, is another, though, wouldn't you say? Hertz1888 (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. And I agree that there is nothing particularly notable about Raven Used Books -- I've shopped there, and I'm happy to have it in the Square, but I don't see anything warranting mentioning it in this article; after all, WP is not the Yellow Pages, and there are other bookstores which are not mentioned: Revolution Books, Curious George, Atherton Antiquarian, Lame Duck, Globe Corner. I'd also argue that Charlie's Kitchen, Grendel's Den, and Tealuxe don't belong here, but I suppose since they've survived as articles, we should link to them. --Macrakis (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm the IP user (not sure if my IP's still the same) and the 'hard data' Lentower asks for would be that one of the edits was: "→Notable establishments: Deleting timed reference (32 years as of when?) Too many redlined links. What are the criteria for notability?" It looks like that's already been discussed though.  You're right, Macrakis, what I said about the oldest businesses was just flat out wrong, and not what I meant to say -- I think I made an error when I was paring down my comment.  My angle really isn't that a store like Raven ought to be included, just that I found the list as I first saw it as senseless and inaccurate (that is, 'the picture').  For what it's worth, I like the solution you three seem to have arrived at, which is removing the list sections altogether in favor of actual descriptive content.


 * I do hope it isn't forgotten is that standing still for 100 years isn't the only way a thing can be notable; Macrakis mentions that he or she feels Charlie's doesn't belong there, for example, and while I don't feel strongly one way or the other, it could certainly be argued that it has more cultural cache than, say, the Globe Book Store, which is very cool and unique but relatively insignificant to local culture. I guess I lean towards seeing the institutions which have a current significance to residents (and, perhaps my bias: non-student residents) as more notable, but I suppose the cases for these things must be made on an individual basis and worked into the greater body of the article. 98.216.50.36 (talk) 01:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this section should be re-titled Establishments That Make Harvard Square Special? Using the word Notable in a section title here on WP, seem to invoke the need for WP notability standards, such as those noted above. Note (pun intended) that the usual WP reader has a very different understanding of the word Notable than the usual WP editor.

Alternatedly, it could be viewed as a Trivia section, that should have it's content merged into the other sections, with adequete text. (Some of them are already in the other sections.) Lentower (talk) 03:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I have added the template to these sections, and will help with the integration over time. Lentower (talk) 19:00, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

History improvements
The Cambridge article has history about the Square, that could be adapted for this article in a straightforward manner. National Register of Historic Places listings in Cambridge, Massachusetts could be used to enhance the history in this article as well. Lentower (talk) 04:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Cross-check article with
should be cross-checked against the article, every so often. And necessary changes make. I have not done this. Lentower (talk) 22:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Misuse of trivia tag
The trivia tag is being misused. It is intended to prevent the accretion of bulleted lists of unrelated information. This information is related by location. Yes, it should be merged into other parts of the article, but there is no justification for the tag since the information is related and is not in list form. Yworo (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Trivia saids isolated information. Listcruft and Relevance of content indicates that this list doesn't belong in the article.  Your argument about location could be used to list all the parking meters in the square.  I'm parking the section here, until someone can merge or delete each item according to WP's content guidelines. Lentower (talk) 00:29, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * ==Notable establishments==

Harvard Square is home to American Repertory Theater, Brattle Theatre (a non-profit movie theater), Café Pamplona (a Spanish-style cafe), Charlie's Kitchen (an American bar, restaurant and beer garden), Club Passim (a folk music club), Dewey, Cheatem & Howe (known for NPR’s Car Talk), Grendel's Den (bar and restaurant), Lumen Eclipse (public video art display), Newbury Comics (a New England music and pop culture chain), and Tealuxe (a tea bar and cafe). Harvard Square is also home to a number of bookstores, including Globe Corner Bookstore, Grolier Poetry Bookshop, Harvard Book Store, Harvard Coop, and Schoenhof's Foreign Books.


 * And the bold, revert, delete guideline says that after you are reverted, which you were, you then discuss (and it's a given that you wait for a response in order to have a discussion), before making further changes. Please be aware that you do not own the article, nor are you the sole arbiter of what Wikipedia guidelines say or how they are to be interpreted. Inserting your petty, cluttering comments into the article text ain't so pretty either. Thanks for preserving them here. Yworo (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your work in improving this article. BTW, the way you used the words petty and cluttering above are against a WP guideline.  I don't agree with your opinion about my comments.  I am not personally offended by your poor choice of words, but many editors would be.  And that makes communication harder. Lentower (talk) 00:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggested improvements
I've updated, cleaned up, and reorganized parts of the article, revealing that the actual "History" section is extremely minimal. There are plenty of interesting things that can be said about the history of Harvard Square. Just in terms of retailing, there were notable establishments such as the Acoustic Research showroom, Design Research store, CyberSmith (early Internet cafe), WGBH Store, Tech HiFi, Swatch store, Tower Records, HMV Records, etc. Some of these were pioneering concepts in the history of American retailing at large. The rise and fall of record stores could fill out a paragraph by itself. The story of new and used bookstores could fill a separate subsection.

Also, the architectural significance of Holyoke Center, the Design Research store, the Harvard Coop, the various incarnations of the MBTA station, and the walled but porous presence of Harvard Yard need to be covered. The huge Eliot Street Yards of the MBTA, and their replacement by John F. Kennedy Memorial Park and Harvard Kennedy School of Government are significant. I don't recall mention of the Harvard Square Business Association or various neighborhood associations, such as the Mid Cambridge Neighborhood Association, which was instrumental in getting a Harvard Square zoning overlay district enacted.

The book by Mo Lotman, listed in under "Further reading", is a major citable source, but there must be plenty of other sources. I would guess that there are interesting academic papers and business school case studies as well, given the proximity of Harvard to this longtime retail center. Reify-tech (talk) 18:28, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Bunting, Bainbridge. Harvard: An Architectural History (1985). 350 pp., as well as http://books.google.com/books/about/Harvard_University.html?id=bYhPAAAAMAAJ are good references about Harvard's architecture. — Lentower (talk) 22:45, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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