Talk:Helpmate

Disambig
Helpmate is also a robot which works in Hospitals. due to its popularity please make a disambigious page for Helpmate word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.98.166.86 (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There doesn't seem to be an article about the hospital device, so I don't think a disambig page would do much good. Bubba73 (talk), 18:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Difficulty
For an introduction, I find the helpmate from Maslar much too tricky. For this to solve one must either be a genius or have plenty of time. I added two more straightforward problems for introductory purposes. There might be more appropriate helpmates, but I find it better to start with simpler examples than to throw in a challenging (yet incredible) problem to begin. Hopefully, someone will add even better examples. Dlb (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not a solving contest, let alone a solving contest for beginners. It's an encyclopedia article.  Examples don't have to be simple, let alone pedestrian.  Indeed, it's better, in articles about problems or studies, to use examples that readers can learn from, in preference to examples that readers can solve in their sleep.  The helpmate by Maslar is an excellent one to start with, because it illustrates both the beauty and humor of helpmates.  Bruce leverett (talk) 03:06, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with the change being reverted. But the reason for me is different. The article became with my change an introduction to helpmate, which is not appropriate. However, I still find the example from Maslar (helpmate in 8) too complicated to use first in the explanation. The article must explain what a helpmate is as concise as possible. This is not the case at the moment. Analogously the checkmate article must tell what checkmate is and not, what a checkmate puzzle is. I feel this is now more an article about helpmate puzzles instead of the helpmate term itself. Helpmate also serves other purposes than for puzzles. For example, under FIDE rules after flag fall, the game is only lost when the opponent still could win; in other words, there is a helpmate. There is an interest in the helpmate term which goes beyond the use in helpmate puzzles. For this additionally, I suggest a more concise explanation.Dlb (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Your observation about the FIDE rule is interesting, but in common usage, when someone says "helpmate", they are generally referring to a helpmate problem. Of course, the term "helpmate" predates the FIDE rule, and even FIDE itself, by many years.
 * Looking again at the first paragraph of this article, I think it is reasonably concise and clear. But if you come up with something you like better, you are welcome to try it out.  The worst that could happen is, someone would revert you and/or argue with you about it.  Bruce leverett (talk) 03:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Helpmate and FIDE rules
In Article 6.9 (what happens if one player runs out of time) and Article 7.5 (how to proceed after two completed illegal moves) of the FIDE Laws of Chess the rules define the following draw: "However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible series of legal moves." This description is equivalent to a "Helpmate". This is not personal research only, I add two main arbiter case, where they reference Article 6.9 using the "Helpmate" term. . I find this relation of utmost importance. Helpmate as such should have two connections: First "Helpmate" as the idea of the other side cooperating in mate, as referenced by the FIDE arbiter's, and second "Helpmate problem" as intriguing problems with this approach. Now the article focus on the second aspect. I suggest to also add the first technical aspect. I made an attempt in this direction, that was a bit too much, and was reverted. So now, before changing something again, I am asking for your opinions first. Dlbbld (talk) 21:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In the two sources, the comparison between the FIDE rule and the stipulations of a helpmate problem is used as a way to explain or clarify the FIDE rule. If you think it is helpful, you might add something like that, citing or quoting one of the sources, to the article Rules of Chess.  IMO the comparison would not be helpful in the article Helpmate, that is, it would be distracting, but tangential to the appreciation of chess problems.  Bruce leverett (talk) 03:37, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. The FIDE Laws of Chess state "The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent's king with any series of legal moves." I find the formulation very complicated. A formulation like "The game is drawn when neither player has a helpmate." would be tempting, as shorter and avoid any misunderstanding. But as I understood, this is not correct. The relation between the helpmate and the FIDE rule is only in the idea of the helpmate. That is to check if there is a mate with the cooperation of the opponent. Maybe the meaning of helpmate will change over time, but that is purely speculative, and as such, the article is just fine. Dlbbld (talk) 20:19, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Checkmating Black?
Why is a helpmate limited to just checkmating Black? Could it also be done with the goal of checkmating White?

As a sidenote, we should consider usurping the page title, moving this article to "Helpmate (chess)", and replacing it with a disambig page, so that a page about the helpmate robot can be created, as that appears to be notable enough to warrant its on article. NegativeZ (talk) 03:42, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Regarding checkmating White instead of Black, please do not use the Wikipedia article to try to change the rules. There is no reason why the stipulation is to checkmate Black; that's just the stipulation.


 * As to the helpmate robot, someone asked the same question about it earlier in this talk page, in 2009. Typing "helpmate" to google just now, I didn't see any references to it, so I would guess that it isn't much more notable now than it was in 2009.  But do you have sources that indicate otherwise?  Bruce leverett (talk) 04:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * If it's a rule that a selfmate must checkmate Black, then there should be a source cited for that to avoid confusion. Can you cite a source? One that I found claims that it's simply when both sides cooperate to allow one player to win, but doesn't specify that Black has to be checkmated.


 * Also, type "helpmate robot" into google, instead of just "helpmate".
 * NegativeZ (talk) 15:16, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Sidenote: Some sources also claim that in a helpmate, Black moves first.NegativeZ (talk) 15:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I am looking at Hooper and Whyld, The Oxford Companion to Chess, 2nd. edition, 1996, entry for "helpmate". It is cited in the article.  It is somewhat lazy for the article to be citing a tertiary source.  Searching quickly online, I found this article .  It would be best to cite one of the popular books about chess problems, but I don't have a copy.  Reading a PDF version of the article by Brunner et al., I see that it too specifies that Black's king is the one being checkmated; but I would not cite that article, which is a scholarly article about complexity, for readers who want to know more about the conventions of helpmate problem composition.


 * Thanks for the tip. Searching "helpmate robot", I learned about the hospital robotic system, which has been around for about 30 years.  (I assume that the system in use today is descended from the one that was described in Elsevier's Journal of Robotics and Autonomous Systems in 1989.)  Perhaps someone will write a Wikipedia article about this system.  When that happens, they (or we) will have to deal with the disambiguation issue.  It hasn't happened yet, though.  Bruce leverett (talk) 18:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I forgot to add: Indeed, Black moves first in an orthodox helpmate; our article says so in the first paragraph.


 * Near the end of the article there is a section about "duplex" helpmates, in which, from the same position, Black can move first and White checkmates, or White can move first and Black checkmates. This is a remarkable feat of composition!  Bruce leverett (talk) 18:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that, I think I was confused. As for the helpmate robot, until someone does write an article about that, the link to the hospital robot at the top of the page will suffice. NegativeZ (talk) 23:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)