Talk:Herb Dean

Long, derogatory chant
Removed this line: "and the fans at the arena that night began a very long, very loud derogatory chant regarding this decision." Why?


 * 1) just say "bullshit", WP is not censored, and "derogatory chant" doesn't make sense.
 * 2) chant only lasted less than a minute, not "very long" at all.
 * 3) what relevance is of the chant to Dean's performance? That the reaction of a bunch of fans yards away who want to see someone's head caved in have anything to do with how proper the stoppage was? No one notable or prominent in the MMA press (online) has said anything about the stoppage being unproper, the worst that was said I've seen is a commentary on Sherdog saying the stoppage was probably 3 seconds too soon.

Also, in general, the UFC 61 stoppage is of so little consequence to Dean's career or is it indicative of his overall effectiveness as a referree. Remember, he got booed the hell out of the time he stopped the fight between Mir and Sylvia, and it turns out Dean was dead right when they X-rayed Sylvia and found his arm cracked. hateless 22:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality
I'm removing the following because it is original research and not NPOV.


 * As a referee for the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Dean has amassed some level of controversial attention regarding his decision to stop fights. Some fans feel that Dean is prone to stepping in and stopping fights prematurely. These fans often cite the Tim Silvia vs. Andrei Arlovski II and Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock II fights which took place at UFC 59 and UFC 61, respectively.


 * At UFC 59, Dean served as referee during the rematch between Tim Sylvia and then heavyweight champion Andrei Arlovski. Following a stiff right uppercut to the chin delivered by Sylvia, Arlovski went to the mat face down. Sylvia quickly followed up by delivering a number of swift, uncontested right hooks to Arlovski's head. At this point, Dean called a stop to the bout, awarding Sylvia the victory. Arlovski was not unconscious and did not appear to be significantly injured.


 * At UFC 61, held on July 8th, 2006, Herb Dean served as referee of the highly anticipated rematch between Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock. At 1:18 into the first round, Herb Dean stepped in and stopped the fight following 5 consecutive elbows to the head of Ken Shamrock by Tito Ortiz, thereby giving the victory to Ortiz by TKO. Many people in the crowd expressed disappointment by booing and shouting "bullshit". Shamrock, visibly angered and relatively uninjured, immediately protested the decision. However, it was not overturned and Shamrock was subsequently ushered out of the Octagon.

Especially egregious to me is that it replaced language that to me struck a more balanced tone, even if it was equally unverifiable. Frankly, I can try to insert the example of Mir vs. Sylvia above and 'Big' John McCarthy's complete defense of Dean's decision at Sylvia Arlovski 2, but there's no point trying to rebut a bunch of unverifiable heresay. There is no controversy outside of griping on message forums, and message boards are not considered a valid sources of information for Wikipedia. Also, attempting to aggregate the responses of message boards and trying to do some analysis of what you found is original research. If there was acceptable sources, as in, if someone finds a public statement out there by a notable figure in MMA that accuse Dean of stopping matches improperly, then the above can go in and I'll NPOV it with the proper examples. But as is, it's original research and does not belong in here. hateless 06:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Controversial Decision Shamrock v Ortiz 2
In the above you stated that there was no controversy because no notable figure in MMA said anything about it. Now the UFC President Dana White called the stoppage controversial, and you pull it out of the article saying it's irrelevant. What more do you want?

Also, from the UFC website, "Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock have a rivalry that just won’t quit. In their last fight, Ortiz scored a quick and controversial victory that left many fans scratching their heads." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.206.186.60 (talk • contribs)


 * You added a quote that was didn't comment on Dean and just advertised for a fight which does not have indication that it will involve Dean. That makes it irrelevant to this page, and your point that you finally have someone saying it was controversial wasn't even mentioned at first, and frankly unneeded since the page all along said the decision was controversial. But you know what I really want? For all of you anonymous editors to stop trying to turn this page into an attack page against Dean. hateless 17:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, fine - here, I'm not anonymous anymore. All I really want is a wiki page on Herb Dean that indicates he has a non-insigficant history of controversial fight stoppages. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't agree that the old wording is just as valid. Some internet people saying the stoppage was convtroversial is one thing - Dana White saying it is a different level. But you're right - my first edit was not correct. ''still_sick 22:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we just add a section titled "Controversial Matches" or something? I think it's worth putting into his wiki, but so far hasn't been formatted well. Dumbwhiteguy777 21:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine. My main concern is to keep a focus and balance to the article. Dean has a few apparent quick stops, but some of them turned out to be completely valid and uncontroversial. If someone was to chronicle such, it need to be a considerable and researched effort and cannot be just a collection of half-assed bullet points trying to infer something without stating it. hateless 22:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I added that section. It probably needs cleaned up because I'm new to thise whole Wikipedia thing. Dumbwhiteguy777 23:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Frank Shamrock vs Renzo Gracie
should be added to his controversial calls as Frank has repeatedly stated he thought the DQ was BS and should have only been a loss of points. Gracie was given 5 minutes to regain his composure as per the rules then (according to Frank) faked detrimental injury after which Herb gave Frank a DQ and Renzo the victory.
 * Absolutely not. Dean was not alone in his decision on the DQ, he consulted Mississippi commissioners ringside. The idea that Renzo faked an injury is perposterous, which meant it was all over mma.tv and sherdog unfortunately. hateless 22:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Attack page
This page is starting to veer back into an attack page. Per WP:BLP, this is not the place to list every questionable decision by Dean. I'm starting to believe I was wrong to agree that this section should exist in the article in the first place. A sentence or two about being controversial is the only way to get by this undue weight issue. hateless 22:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * From WP:BLP: "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research). Where the material is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply."
 * I will revert any edit that turns this page into a catalog of perceived transgressions of Dean's ref duties. If Cruz vs. Arlovski was really that notable, it needs reliable sources, not the aimless rantings of message boards. The section should be neutral, it should not point out only to controversies. hateless 19:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Herb Dean. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100216120511/http://mmajunkie.com/news/17935/whites-latest-officiating-rant-focuses-on-praise-for-dean-but-mazzagatti-still-gets-ripped.mma to http://mmajunkie.com/news/17935/whites-latest-officiating-rant-focuses-on-praise-for-dean-but-mazzagatti-still-gets-ripped.mma

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:23, 1 April 2017 (UTC)