Talk:Hethum II

Leo
If "Preceded by" links to Leo III of Armenia (which I think is correct), why does it say "Leo II"? -- Jmabel 23:22, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Reference to the 2nd Battle of Homs changed to Battle of Wadi al-Khazandar as the 2nd Battle of Homs took place in 1281 and ended as a Mamluk victory. I'm pretty ure your referring to the Battle of Wadi al-Khazandar.

Dispute
Please see the ongoing discussion at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 18:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * (followup) Now that the article has been rewritten, are there any further concerns? Or can the "Dispute" tag be removed? --Elonka 06:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think there are many more general details about his life, the politics of being caught between the Mamluks and the Mongols, the issues of religion, and the story of his death which could be added. The section on the offensive into Syria still seems out of proportion, since the other general issues have not been discussed. It doesn't deserve so much space and there is no need for a protracted discussion on whether or not Hethum entered Jerusalem. Historical biographies should not be written like this around dubious single events/non-events [please delete where necessary]. (The case of Guy Fawkes is quite different.) The book and article of Angus Stewart seem to be good sources. Mathsci (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am in agreement that the article can (and should) be further improved. However, does it still need to be tagged as having "factual accuracy" problems? --Elonka 21:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Date of death
(moved from my talkpage) Elonka, you have recently returned to editing PGH related articles. At present you are changing content about the murder of Hethum II and his nephew. If you look in the references, you will see that there is an article from 2005 by Angus Donal Stewart entirely devoted to a discussion of his death, which places the murder on November 17th, 1307. However, your own editing makes no reference to this article and actually what you write does not agree with the fairly detailed analysis of Angus Donal Stewart, which explains that the murder took place following an invitation to either a counsel or a banquet. I wonder whether you could read that article carefully and modify what you have written accordingly. Even Mutafian on page 253 of "La Cilicie au carrefour des empires, Volume 1‎" places the murders in 1307. The other reference linking to the Gallica archive in France makes no mention of the dates on the page cited: indeed in footnote 21, Stewart refers to that source as giving the date as 1307 on page 490. (This article is on my watchlist and I originally added the source and info for the murders.) Many thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The date of death does appear to have some ambiguity to it. Today I was working from A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian, which lists the date of death as November 13, 1308. Check, p. 208.  I am in agreement though that Angus Donal Stewart is a highly reliable source, so if it's a matter of either or, I'd be more inclined to go with Stewart's date, than Kurkjian's.  Then again, it might be better to list both dates, if there are other sources which list the date of death in 1308 than 1307. What other sources do you have handy, so we can try to best determine their consensus? --Elonka 22:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed the primary source since it appears to be unhelpful on this particular matter. For reference though, it's here: Receuil des Historiens des Croisades, Documents arméniens I, p.664 --Elonka 22:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think for this material it is best to read the article by Stewart carefully as he discusses all available sources in great detail and it is the most recent available document. This is the correct page (490) from the Receuil on Gallica cited by Stewart which gives Nov 17, 1307. If Kurjian is the only source that gives a different date (he gives Nov 18, 1308, and gives only one account from several described by Stewart), then it could be noted in a footnote without an explicit mention in the main text. Vahan Kurkjian does not probably qualify as a professional academic historian and could have made a misprint in his popular book. It does not seem that Kurjian gives detailed references to primary sources as Stewart does. The whole book is available online - here is the relevant part . It was published in 1958 by the Armenian General Benevolent Union of America when the author was 85 years old; without proper footnotes it does not seem to satisfy wP:RS. Also Stewart mentions the equivalent year in the Arabic calendar as well as referring to various Arabic sources. It seems to me that Stewart's article is clearly a more reliable, scholarly and thorough source than the popular and somewhat dated book by Kurjian. The previous phrasing used before (by me) to describe the murder in the main text took into account the ambiguities of motive discussed in detail by Stewart; I think some form of that earlier text might be an improvement on your copy-edit. Mathsci (talk) 23:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, edit as you see fit. :) --Elonka 01:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. I added a map to keep things clearer. Mathsci (talk) 10:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I made a few more tweaks and added an infobox, but I think the major work is done at this point. If you are satisfied with the article as well, would you be interested in crossing it off at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance?  Or shall I do it? --Elonka 20:54, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it to you. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 23:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Leo I, King of Armenia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:33, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hethum I of Armenia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)