Talk:Hildebrandslied

Translation
I think that the translation is not correct. At school I learned a different meaning of the words:

I heard tell That warriors met       in single combat Hildebrand and Hadubrand       with two armies (that means: each of them had an army behind him) son and father       prepared their armour made ready their battle garments       girded on their swords the warriors, over their plate armour (made of rings)       when they rode to battle.

-- 195.37.69.10 09:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But untar means among or between, it is much more specific than with, and expresses physical location.


 * Plate armour is not made of rings - and no one wore plate armour in the 9th century, anyway. --Pfold 10:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Old Bavarian
The strange dialect mixture of the text is not Old High German and Old Saxon, but Old Bavarian and Old Saxon. If you make a difference between Old German and Old Saxon, you have the be consequent. As some of you understand modern High German, take a look at what the German wikipedia says:


 * Das Lied wurde von unbekannten Fuldaer Mönchen in althochdeutscher Sprache, jedoch in einer eigentümlichen altsächsisch-bairischen Mischsprache und mit angelsächsischen Schreibbesonderheiten (w-Rune), aufgezeichnet.


 * "The Lay was written by unknown monks from Fulda in Old High German language, however in a strange mixed-language between Old Saxon and Old Bavarian with Anglo-Saxon features in the script (Wynn Rune)."

The only "strange" thing about that is, that it doesn't fit into the standard concept of a unified Old German language in early medieval times, that only had some minor regional pecularities.

A scientific source mentioning the same classification is: "University of Innsbruck, Köbler Gerhard, Old High German dictionary, (4th edition) 1993"; See the "Vorwort" (PDF) and the classification of primary sources there: Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch - Universiät Innsbruck (hochdaidsch)

Note that the text you can see in the German Wikisource is already slightly altered from the original and a little bit standardized to make it fit more in the unified Old High German concept.

Greetings ... --El bes 21:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Some additional question: Has anyone of you read the quoted book: "Unlucky Zeal: The Hildebrandslied and the Muspilli under the Acid"? Seems to be a source that raises some questions about the Grimms' work, how they dealt with the Old-Bavarian manuskripts and what conclusions they made. And why are sophisticated scholars doing their research relying on an edited edition of the text and not the original (quote: Althochdeutches Lesebuch, ed. W.Braune, K.Helm, E.A.Ebbinghaus, 17th edn, Tübingen 1994. ISBN 3-484-10707-3. Provides an edited text of the poem which is widely used and quoted.) --El bes 12:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I entirely agree. Everyone who writes about the HL should be obliged to go to Kassel and work only while they have the original in front of them. --Pfold 16:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The new facsimile print is quite good, you don't have to go there personally. --El bes 20:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * But every facsimile has a colour bias that means that some features are more and others are less clear. Plus the fact that almost none of those who work with the text have the palaeographic skills to evaluate the manuscript expertly. --Pfold 09:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Some sources concerning the Bavarian character of the text (in German):
1.: Sabrina Prinzen, Universität Trier: Die phonologische Beschreibung des Vokalismus im Hildebrandslied, Zitat:
 * Die sprachliche und lautliche Untersuchung hinsichtlich des Vokalismus im Hildebrandslied, des einzigen überlieferten deutschen Heldenliedes, stellt sich als sehr interessant und abwechslungsreich dar. Abwechslungsreich insofern, als dass man eine Variation der ahd. und as. Mundarten in Form einer Mischsprache antrifft. Eine Mischung der Sprachdialekte findet man vor, da dem ursprünglich hd. Text im Nachhinein eine unvollkommene und nicht konsequent durchgeführte Umsetzung ins Nd. zugeführt wird.


 * Das Hildebrandslied ist in seinem Kern oberdeutsch, bairisch, mit einigen frk. Anteilen durchsetzt sowie mit starken Einfüssen nd. Formen durchwachsen, die erst später eingefügt bzw. umgesetzt werden. Meist findet man künstlich konstruierte Formen vor, die vom Hd. ins Nd. sprachlich auf künstliche Art und Weise umgesetzt werden, aber tatsächlich im Nd. so meist nicht existierten. Es handelt sich dabei um nd. Scheinformen.
 * Diese nd. Formen sind von einem hd. Schreiber nachgebildet worden und weisen eine orthographisch falsche Darstellung auf.


 * Es sind nicht nur Mischformen innerhalb des Wortschatzes, sondern auch innerhalb einzelner Wörter vorzufinden.2


 * Des weiteren gibt es daneben Wörter im Text, die ansonsten nirgends in einer anderen älteren Quelle auftauchen, wie beispielsweise das Kompositum staimbort Vers 65des Textes in Verform . Auch erscheinen Wörter, die man weder als hd. noch als nd. Formen bestimmen kann.

Which means: A bavarian writer tried to write a text in old Saxon, but couldn't really do it, because his first language (Old Bavarian) already had finished the consonant shift and he was not able to reconstruct pre-sound-shift words correctly. --El bes 19:47, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)

2.: Bibliotheca Augustiana Website, Das Hildebrandslied:


 * Das Hildebrandslied ist das einzige in einem deutschen Idiom überlieferte Heldenlied. Die bairische Fassung des gotischen oder langobardischen Urtextes ist um 770/80 entstanden. Es hat sich in einer theologischen Handschrift aus Fulda erhalten, niedergeschrieben um 830 in einer bairisch-angelsächsischen Mischsprache in stabreimenden Langzeilen. Der Text scheint Lücken aufzuweisen, und der Schluß fehlt.

Also interesting: The text says, that the Lay of Hildebrand is "the only heroic lay in a germanic idiome ... " This is a very careful choice of words, because todays scholars don't dare to just call the language "Old High German" like 19th century scholars did and also those of the first half of the 20th century. But the Bibliotheca Augustiana still doesn't go so far as to admit that the Lay of Hildebrand is in reality one of the oldest examples of Bavarian, in a time when no German existed. --El bes 20:11, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)

3.: Meyers Lexikon Online, Kategorien: Nationalliteraturen | Alte deutsche Literatur bis ca.1918, Hildebrandslied (sic!)


 * Hildebrandslied, einziges althochdeutsches Beispiel eines germanischen Heldenliedes; erhalten sind 68 nicht immer regelmäßig gebaute stabgereimte Langzeilen in einer althochdeutsch-altsächsischen Mischsprache; der Schlussteil fehlt. Die tragische Begegnung des aus der Verbannung heimkehrenden Hildebrand mit seinem ihn nicht erkennenden Sohn Hadubrand spielt vor dem geschichtlichen Hintergrund der Ostgotenherrschaft in Italien. Das Hildebrandslied wurde Anfang des 9. Jahrhunderts in der Benediktinerabtei in Fulda von zwei Mönchen auf der ersten und letzten Seite einer theologischen Sammelhandschrift eingetragen. Die überlieferte Fassung (Handschrift heute Landesbibliothek Kassel) geht auf eine bairische Bearbeitung eines langobardischen Urliedes zurück

Addition: Why could it happen, that a bavarian writer tried to write a text in Old Saxon, but only managed to do it poorely?

The monastry of Fulda was founded by Saint Sturm in the year 744. Sturmi came from the Bavarian speaking area and was most probably born in Lauriacum, which is in today's Enns in Upper Austria. With him came also other bavarian monks and also relatives to the north. The monastry of Fulda mainly engaged in missionary work among the neighbouring Saxon areas, a tribe that was still mostly pagan. They needed texts in the Saxon language, to preach to them and therefor translated mostly Latin texts into Old Saxon, most of them being of clergic origin. One of the only exemptions is the Lay of Hildebrand, which was of Bavarian origin and was only slightly "Saxonized". Even after Sturmi's death the monastry had links to Bavaria, like Eigil of Fulda, the 4th bishop, who was the nephew of Sturmi and therefor also from Bavarian origin. Note that this is a theory and no commonly accepted fact, never the less that the theory is very plausible and also the content of the Lay of Hildebrand indicates to the southern region and most likely took place somewhere along the Danube (which was Bavarian speaking area from the 6th century on).

A source on the misleading concept of a calling the language of the Lay of Hildebrand "Old High German":

Quote from the canadian linguist Chirstoph Lorey, University of New Brunswick, about the book of Cyril Edwards "The Beginnings of German Literature: Comparative and Interdisciplinary Approaches to Old High German. Rochester: Camden House, 2002", which is cited in the article:
 * Edwards relies very heavily on older research findings, and thus frequently appears only too ready to make an old frock look new. While the questions puzzling research are debated in an exhaustive manner, the author hardly adds anything new to what is now a centuries old dispute concerning the origin, dating, preservation, and reasoning of all non-liturgical vernacular texts, such as, for example, the Hildebrandslied or the Merseburg Charms. There is very little hard evidence to support one hypothesis over another even though scientists have been able to rule out some of the earliest theories concerning the provenance of these texts. And as Edwards himself demonstrates, the tampering with the few surviving documents over the centuries, particularly over the past two hundred years, has made it increasingly difficult to return to these original sources and to subject the oldest remaining manuscripts to further, and hopefully sounder, scientific scrutiny. --El bes 16:19, 23. Okt. 2007 (CEST)

and for those of you who still believe in the concept of "Old High German", one especially interesting quote from Professor Otto Kronsteiner, University of Salzburg (also in German):
 * "Am Begriff althochdeutsch ist real nur alt- korrekt. Es gab in der fraglichen Zeit weder ein Deutsch noch ein Hochdeutsch, natürlich auch kein Mittelhochdeutsch. Es waren vereinzelte Ansätze, in verschiedenen Regionen (um den Bodensee, um Salzburg) aus einem Dialekt eine Schriftsprache zu machen, die aber wieder ausgestorben sind, und nicht fortgesetzt wurden, während die zugrundeliegenden Dialekte (wie Alemannisch oder Bairisch) bis heute weiterleben"

Translation: "The only thing real about the term Old High German is the word "old". During this era there was no German, nor a High German and also no Middle High German. There were sporadic attempts, in various regions (along Lake Constance, around Salzburg) to form a written language from dialects, but they all were later extinct and discontinued, while the underlying dialects (like Alemannic or Bavarian) still exist today."

Cheers --El bes (talk) 19:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The Juengeres Hildebrandslied
I would like to move the information on the Jüngeres Hildebrandslied from Legends about Theoderic the Great to this page. Does anyone have any suggestions for where it might fit?Ermenrich (talk) 13:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * There is already an article Jüngeres Hildebrandslied, which could do with expanding. --Pfold (talk) 13:44, 1 April 2018 (UTC)