Talk:History of the Jews in Portugal

Fiction?
By its own terms, this treatment of Portuguese history inflates the contribution of Jews. Jews were indeed a small part of Portuguese history but not nearly as prominent as described. Nor was the Portuguese inquisition as bad as suggested. Give Jews their fair share of praise. Please forego this enlarged and entirely ficticious emphasis upon the history of Portugal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grandcross (talk • contribs)
 * It's possible, but could you give more data, about what you consider "fiction" please? M3TALL1CA2000 - 11 June, 2006
 * I can't find any fiction either. I don't think the article inflates the contribution of the Jews, it's all pretty factual actually. I also cannot agree that the Portuguese inquisition wasn't all that bad. It was brutal, unfair, and greatly contributed to the decline of the Portuguese Empire.--Húsönd 01:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Tolerance
The Muslim kingdom of Al-andalus was the most advanced in the whole world of that era, and there was a remarkable tolerance between Muslim rulers and Christian and Jewish populations.

The supposed religious tolerance sounds like POV. I would also question that the Muslim kingdom was the most advanced "in the world" during that time. In the world? Europe, maybe. This all sounds like the typical "when the moors ruled in europe" type propaganda. If the pedantic wiki editors can get away with constantly questioning, deleting and editing articles without consequence to themselves for disputing claims that are the proverbial equivalent of "1+1=2", then how much more do claims like these need to be refuted? But, since that is the case, I don't see many things getting better on wikipedia.

Furthermore, you can hardly say Europe just because the Iberian peninsula is situated in a geographical location that has been designated as "Europe". This sounds like the rest of Europe trying to glorify themselves by riding along the coat-tails of a kingdom that mostly correlates with the Iberian peninsula, and then only secondly to relatively very few parts of Europe and to no where near the same magnitude. To my knowledge no one says that German history is French history or that English history is Italian history. Is the whole world in love with the Moors? It looks like it. It looks like many just want to be "down" with it. It must be getting fashionable.

Most of those caliphs are my ancestors and I don't buy this propaganda one bit. I'm not saying that my views should be presented as fact but it looks like some views are presented as such without consequence while others do suffer bitter consequences. Neutrality is a highly overrated attribute on wikipedia even though it may like to claim it.

Much of what is presented as fact concerning the Moors in Europe is not really known to be fact and much is conjecture. The truth is that there is a lot that is not known about it. If such information were to be presented as fact in, for example, articles about stories in the Bible, there would be riots. So, I don't know why all this about the Moors is presented as fact.

It would be somewhat more accurate if it were to say, "Some historians believe that the relationship between Moors, Christians and Jews shows remarkable religious tolerance according to their interpretations of existing evidence of life in Al-andalus during that time period."

Lusitano Transmontano 23:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

-I agree, at least on what "the most advanced" actually means. 翔太 「Shouta:talk」 23:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

removed "netherlands won" statement because it is POV
I removed the "netherlands won" statement because it is POV. A person could also argue that the netherlands ultimately lost whenever the jews entered the netherlands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.69.194.181 (talk) 12:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Questionable claim and non-NPOV in History section
Original text:

"Many Portuguese Jews, dozens of thousands, left the country to Amsterdam, Thessaloniki, Constantinople, France, Morocco, Brazil, Curaçao and the Antilles. All of these places flourished with the arrival of the Portuguese Jews, who left lasting cultural effects that can be noticed today, like the use of the Ladino language by some Jewish communities in Turkey, or the Portuguese based dialects of the Antilles."

First, "dozens of thousands" is an awkward and vague number. "Many thousands" is more correct. Because this article includes only one footnote and cites no sources, I'm guessing that's as close an estimate we'll get without someone exerting more effort and doing their homework. Consult and cite sources, people.

Second, "All of these places flourished with the arrival of the Portuguese Jews" is a non-NPOV and preposterous statement. Perhaps unintentionally, this statement makes it appear all of these places were bereft of art, ideas and commerce until--voila!--Portuguese Jews came and made everything better. A hallmark of Jewish culture is questioning dubious statements, and this grandiose statement illustrates perfectly why skepticism is indeed a glorious thing. Kinkyturnip (talk) 03:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed! I agree. Change it. The Ogre (talk) 07:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The article was a mess, full of POV. I tried to improve it. Hope it's better now! The Ogre (talk) 14:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Jewish population in Portugal (today)
Where did they get that number of 5000 Jews in the 2001 Census? Not in the 2001 Census, that's for sure... According to Portuguese law, the question on religion was not asked to anyone under 15 (which limited it to 84% of the population) and respondents could decline to answer (8% did). Under this circumstances, INE had about 1750 persons identifying themselves as Jews, and their estimate for the total population is a little over 2500. Source: http://www.ine.pt/ngt_server/attachfileu.jsp?look_parentBoui=380027&att_display=n&att_download=y (page 216) Gazilion (talk) 11:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Harold Pinter
According to the Wikipedia entry for Harold Pinter, he was not descended from Portuguese Jews. If there is further corroboration Pinter's name should be removed from the list of Portuguese Jews.Iss246 (talk) 01:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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