Talk:Hofämterspiel

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Hofamterspiel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080813181127/http://www.khm.at/homeE/homeE.html to http://www.khm.at/homeE/homeE.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 18:23, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Card game or pack of cards?
Hofämterspiel is a pack of 48 cards but not a game. The German word -spiel in this context can mean 'pack of cards' as well as 'game', but it is clearly the former. The article even states "Which game or games the Hofämterspiel was devised for is virtually impossible to tell, as no other source mentions the deck or its use..." With 48 cards it could have been used for Karnöffel, but there is no record of a game called Hofämter. So categorising it as a 'card game' is misleading. For that reason, the category "Dedicated deck card games" should be removed. Bermicourt (talk) 09:42, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Before investigating into the sources, I note that even the Karnöffel is defined as a game : "This makes the game the oldest identifiable European card game in the history of playing cards". --Daehan (talk) 12:02, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, so that article is categorised as a game. But there is a difference between a set of cards used for playing games and the games themselves. The Hofämterspiel is a set of cards. We don't even know if they were ever used for a game; they may have been for decoration or just a collectors' piece. Historically, they're just mentioned in an inventory. Meanwhile, I have a set of Württemberg-pattern cards, but there is no game called "Württemberg-pattern"; we do play games called Gaigel and Binokel with them though. Bermicourt (talk) 14:17, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Bold assertion
The section on "use" makes the bold assertion that "the very fine quality of the cards, as well as the particular ranking scheme, suggest that the Hofämterspiel was likely used for playing a trick-taking game, in which the Narr and Narryn might have acted as jokers." This seems wrong on two counts. First, how does the quality of the cards suggest its use as a trick-taking game? Quality has nothing to do with mode of play. We don't play trick-taking games with good quality cards and matching or fishing games with poor quality ones. Second, the Joker was invented in the mid-19th century in the US and is entirely unrelated to the Fool that has been part of Tarot packs since they were invented around 1440. While the figure of the Fool may resemble the modern American Joker in appearance, its status and functions are often quite different. Perhaps the source was using the term Joker loosely when he or she really meant "might have acted as an 'excuse'", a role similar, but not identical to that of a wild card. Either way, it would be useful to find other sources that comment on use in order to bring some balance. Bermicourt (talk) 09:11, 18 February 2022 (UTC)