Talk:Holnicote Estate

Luccombe
There is a wrong link here for Luccombe referring to a village on the Isle of Wight. 194.246.46.15 07:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting this - I've changed it to Luccombe, Somerset - for which there is not (yet) an article.&mdash; Rod talk 08:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Have created a stub for Luccombe, Somerset Saga City 16:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

African Americans?
Seems unlikely that the servicemen in question in the last section of this article were "African Americans," which I assume is used incorrectly here as a blanket term for people of black African descent. Admittedly, I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but what were the children of a bunch of African American servicemen doing in Exmoor? A citation would help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.120.38 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't add the original comment but have now added a ref to The Independent story on this.&mdash; Rod talk 07:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Reference tidy
Would anyone object if I tidy up the references on this article, perhaps using Template:Cite web, Template:Cite book, Template:Sfn etc as it seems to be a mix of citation styles at present?&mdash; Rod talk 21:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

What else is needed before a GA nomination?
What else do people think is needed to get this article to meet the Good article criteria?&mdash; Rod talk 17:12, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Domesday confusion
I am rather confused about who owned this manor according to the Domesday book. It is well documented that Ralph de Limesi was granted Selworthy by the King who confiscated it from Queen Edith. The Conservation Appraisal by John Fisher (currently refs 1 and 2) states "The manor at Holnicote, also within the parish, was awarded to Ralph de Limesi by William the Conqueror ... The Luccombe family are recorded as holding both manors on behalf of the de Limesi dynasty. From 1301, by the authority of Edward I, the manors were transferred to Henry de Pynkeny with the Luccombes still in possession. In 1333 Elizabeth Luccombe married into the St. John family who then acquired manorial rights. There was a further change of ownership by marriage to the Arundell family of Trerice in Cornwall. ... The Arundells are known to have built the north aisle of the parish Church in the 17th century. Another noteworthy local family, also for some time owners of the Manor, although no record could be found of their period of tenure, was the Steynings, who probably built the south aisle, in the early 16th century, since there is a date of 1538 high up in the west-end. On the wall, there are good 16th and 17th century brasses to various members of this family. The Acland family became linked by an Arundell marriage to the Holnicote estate from 1745, and the estate eventually transferred entirely to the Aclands in 1802." (pp. 4-5) While this seems straight-forward, I have found reference to Holnicote at OpenDomesday, where it states that two nuns owned 2.5 virgates and there is no mention of de Limesi. Also, unless it is indirect, I believe (as the article shows) that the Aclands married into the Dyke family, not the Arundells, in 1745. It all seems rather conflicting to me. Does anyone know of a decent source that could help here? —Noswall59 (talk) 18:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC).
 * User:Lobsterthermidor is probably the most knowledgeable on these sorts of queries.&mdash; Rod talk 18:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This book (p194) discusses Queen Editha (dab needed presumably Edith of Wessex) & Ralph de Limesi.&mdash; Rod talk 19:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it appears that the Fisher source is not correct; certainly, de Limesi held Selworthy, but he did not own Holnicote. I have found another work which lists the Domesday owners and he does appear amongst them. I'm largely done with the early history section - from Domesday down to the Martyn/Blackford sale in the early 1700s. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:23, 21 May 2015 (UTC).
 * The "Conservation Appraisal" by John Fisher is possibly not an ideal source, being just a potted history written as an intro for a local planning report. Better to go back to the source he no doubt used himself, namely Hancock, the standard work on the Parish of Selworthy. The Acland inheritance of Selworthy from Arundell of Trerice is a bit complex, I'm not sure if I got it right first time round in the Holnicote article, but is well set out in Hancock. For an in-depth explanation of the Arundell/Acland link, see: Pedigree of Arundell of Trerice, Vivian, J.L., ed. (1887). The Visitations of Cornwall: comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620; with additions by J.L. Vivian. Exeter: W. Pollard, p.14. Anne Acland's book has muddled up the Thomas Dyke Aclands in connection with this Arundell inheritance. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC))
 * I note some citation needed tags have been added and went looking. Under the title Hunnecota this book (The Parish of Selworthy by Hancock) has Aluric et Bris teuinus and R. de Corcelle. Should "Bristeuin" in the article be Bristeuinus?&mdash; Rod talk 16:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know why the tag has been added as the statement is supported by the reference at the end of the sentence. I am also not sure why this paragraph has been changed, effectively reverted back to how it was, why Honecote is now in capitals and why there is any need for the quotation. But, to address your query: according to the reference, the Exon Domesday book states: "William holds of Roger [de Corcelle] Hunecote. Aluric and Brictuin held it T.R.E. and gelded for half a hide and half a virgate of land...". The same claim is effectively repeated later in the Exon book: "Roger has a manor called Hunnecota, which was held by two Theigns together T.R.E. Aluric held half a hide and Bristeuin half a virgate". Both of these are printed in Chadwyck-Healey, p. 6. I assume that the "Bristeuinus" and "Bristeuin" are the same person, but I do not know which is preferred. I imagine the latter would have been what he was called in English. It seems that Lobster has removed this reference; one of his complaints was that this Hunecote or Hunnecota refers to Huntscott, a small hamlet near Wootton Courtenay; the editors of the VCH think so. But, then that was a 1906 edition and Chadwyck-Healey (in 1901) seems to think it's Holnicote; neither give their reasoning. However, the National Archives seems to think that they are references to Holnicote and not Huntscott (, cf. folio numbers with ). So I am not sure how to resolve this. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC).

Nomenclature
It is well established that Anglo-Saxon name endings -cott have a first element which is usually the name of the first holder, in this case a man named Hone or similar, thus meaning Hone's Cottage. See e.g. Padel, O.J., Place-Names, published in Kain, Roger & Ravenhill, William, (eds.) Historical Atlas of South-West England, Exeter, 1999, pp.88-94. Holly Cottage is possible, but would be an unusual usage. Is the source quoted a specialist on Anglo-Saxon names (like Padel) or was he just guessing?(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC))
 * Eilert Ekwall, another well respected source for English Place Names, doesn't give an entry for Holnicote but does give ( p247) Holne - Old English holegn - Holly. p77 gives Holnicote "The Honey Cottage" from OE honeg and cot.&mdash; Rod talk 16:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have attempted to cover the variety of possible derivations mentioned. Does Padel specifically mention Holnicote as my reading of his work is that it is mostly about Devon and Cornwall, therefore any conclusions he makes may not apply in this case. As I unfortunately don't have a copy of he book cited could you put the text here so that we can all consider the strength of the evidence for the name-cott assertion?&mdash; Rod talk 11:41, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Ref for Odo - citation needed tag
A citation needed tag has been added in the middle of the sentence " The record also shows than one Odo, son of Gamelin, held a detached portion of land here." but I can't quite understand why. This source (Text of the Somerset Domesday pages 479-526 section XXXIIII. THE LAND OF ODO SON OF GAMELIN) (currently ref 3) says "Odo son of Gamelin holds of the king Locumbe [Luccombe] and Vital (holds it) of him." Therefore what is being asked for with this citation needed tag?&mdash; Rod talk 19:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, I missed this post when commenting above. The text, again in Chadwyck-Healey p. 6, states that "From the manor called Hunecota held by Roger de Curcella 1 fertine of land has been detached and is held by Odo son of Gamelin and Roger wrongly renders geld in respect of it", which is cited from "Exon. p. 475". Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC).

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Mausoleum
The text mentions a mausoleum of Sir Thomas Dyke Acland 400 m from Selworthy Beacon. This probably refers to the "Wind and Weather Hut" which is to my knowledge a Memorial and not a Mausoleum. Or does it actually enclose the interment space or burial space of Sir Thomas Dyke Acland? PhiRho~dewiki (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2021 (UTC)