Talk:Horace

Debt to the Greeks
horace was a great poet and philosepher, how did he help rome in any way?

Hi. I'm still learning here so apologies if I'm not doing things right. The observation that Horace was derivative of the Greeks is true with respect to meter, but that's also true of all Latin poets. The comment could be interpreted as a negative comment on his originality, which I think is transparently unfair and so I deleted it. No Greek poet published an ars poetica like Horace's. With regard to satire, moreover, he took a largely indigenous form created (as best we can tell) by Lucilius, modified it significantly and made it his own. While Horace has many debts to the Greeks, the standard rap on Romans that they stole everything from the Greeks is unfair, and particularly unfair in Horace's case. Thanks for listening! MaggieTMaggieT 14:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Maggie T is absolutely right; I edited some of the language to reflect that. I also deleted some inaccurate characterizations of the Odes and Epodes. Ron Kane 3/10/06.


 * "While Horace has many debts to the Greeks, the standard rap on Romans that they stole everything from the Greeks is unfair, and particularly unfair in Horace's case."

There seems to be someone who disagrees with you...

"Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artis intulit agresti Latio."

"Conquered Greece took captive her savage conqueror and brought her arts into rustic Latium."

Horace, Book II, epistle i, lines 156-157

Lets respect Horace's own words...

As for Horace himself, I cannot disagree with your opinion since I have not studied his work on a degree that would allow me to give an informed opinion.

--RememberHistory (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

carpe diem
Isn't carpe diem "pluck the day" or "savor the day"? I thought carpere means "to pluck" or "to savor", as we get the English word carp, to complain. I have a growing suspicion that "seize the day", although popular, is an incorrect translation. Chase 66.141.177.116 22:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Transferred, it means "enjoy". Literally carpe does mean "you must pluck", but as a phrase with diem it correctly means "enjoy the day". Amphytrite 18:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually seize seems exactly right to me, the feeling is 'don't hang about wasting your time, there's not much of it'. Well employed in the film Dead Poets Society.  And the Oxford Latin Dictionary, no less, gives "pluck, seize, (things considered as fruits and often transitory in nature)".  John Wheater 09:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Stuart Lyons book
I removed the reference to Stuart Lyons' book - it's more relevant to the Guido of Arezzo page (where it has also appeared) and, if one wishes to add a bibliography, there are plenty of other books which are of greater significance. Cassian 05:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to Jon Corelis translation
I am inclined to remove this external link to what seems to me a poor translation. It was added by the mysterious 'Villager' on 20Nov06. I thought of replacing it with a link to Housman's translation of Ode 4.7, Diffugere nives. Does anyone feel the Corelis should be left in? Villager's talk page contains only notifications of auto-removals, so maybe he is inclined to special pleading. John Wheater 09:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. There's no reason to link to a non-notable translation of a single Ode. Housman's translation could reasonably be included, though I would rather place all links specific to the Odes at Odes (Horace) than here. EALacey 18:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a link to James Michie's marvellous translation of 1964. Michie recently died, & surely deserves an article: does anyone feel liking starting one? --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 12:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

First English Translation
From the wikipedia article on Horace: "Ars Poetica was first translated into English by Queen Elizabeth I."

From the wikipedia article Ars Poetica: "Ars Poetica (also known as "The Art of Poetry", Epistula Ad Pisones, or Letters to Piso) was a treatise on poetics. It was first translated into English by Ben Jonson."

Which one is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.208.117.40 (talk) 19:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Neither. In 1567 Thomas Drant's was the first English translation to be published. The Queen's translation was presumably not put on sale to the public. NRPanikker (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Horace's Villa
has anyone considered writing or creating an article about Horace's villa? There have been extensive excavations which can be read about here, and the remains of which can be seen even in Google maps here.

As one can see, they are quite extensive. Surely there is something to be said about them? It isn't often such ruins are properly identified with their owners, especially of such moment as Horace.

Just a thought...

Cjcaesar (talk) 00:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * See Horace's Villa. Camenae (talk) 14:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Page move and merge proposals
The articles on Horace and his works need quite a lot of attention. As a modest beginning, I have suggested that two names be changed in order to conform with regular English language usage. No one as yet has commented on these proposals, perhaps because few editors watch these articles. I thought I might have better luck here. Horatians: please note the proposals hic and illic. Camenae (talk) 00:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have moved Epistularum liber primus to Epistles (Horace) and merged Sermonum liber primus and secundus under the new name Satires (Horace). Camenae (talk) 14:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Rearrangement
Obviously the article needs works, and what is really missing is any in-depth discussion of Horace's works. For this reason, I propose moving the Works section before the Influence section and greatly expanding. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dt barber (talk • contribs) 17:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This page needs rewriting as well as rearranging. Half of the sentences make the ones that immediately follow them gibberish. 134.139.21.196 (talk) 23:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Horace's sayings
I think an article dedicated simply to Horace's catchy sayings would be a good addition - people might consult such an article when looking for quotes. Generally speaking, it's sad to see Horace in such neglect here at WP. I write this as a passer-by with no intention of doing anything about it myself - at least not yet. Amphitryoniades (talk) 02:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, looking at things through new eyes, an article on H's catchy sayings now seems to me premature, bearing in mind the continuing nakedness of the existing articles dedicated to H and his work. Where is everyone? If you saw a beggar this naked you would give him a cloak, but one of the greatest poets of all time gets just a few rags. I'll get round to doing something for him within a year if nobody else does. McCronion (talk) 11:09, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Why bother? The current article here is rated pretty well, compared to many others I've seen:
 * Trustworthy 3 (20 votes)
 * Objective 3.3 (19 votes)
 * Complete 2.6 (20 votes)
 * Well Written 3.4 (21 votes) Eyeless in Gaza (talk) 23:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

New edit
Time something was done here. I'll start with the reception, which I think should end up being at least half the article, considering H's importance in European literature. Then I'll spread out from from there, like the wisteria in my sainted mother's garden, or the unknown vine that keeps strangling her citrus trees, except I won't be a nuisance. The reception will probably take me a couple of weeks, a bit every day. The rest of the garden will probably be a more chronic project, especially since I have my own life and property to manage, and my tractor's generator has gone phut. Texts so far:
 * Stephen Harrison (ed), A Companion to Latin Literature, Blackwell Publishing (2008)
 * Stephen Harrison (ed), A Cambridge Companion to Horace, Cambridge University Press (2007)
 * V.G.Kiernan, Horace: Poetics and Politics, St Martin's Press (1999)
 * David Mankin (ed), Horace: Epodes, Cambridge University Press (1995)

I'll also try to get some older, more 'classic' criticism cheap from the net, and use Google Previews etc.

This is another McRap Project project! Eyeless in Gaza (talk) 06:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Fed up with this crap now. Gone fishing instead! Eyeless in Gaza (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

bugger the tag
I removed this tag because I haven't finished editing. People can reinstate it after I'm done, if it's still necessary. Otherwise it invites busy-bodies and leads to edit-conflicts. Thanks. McCnut (talk) 05:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC) wikify

I'm done now. I leave all my work to WP, as Horace left everything to the emperor. Do with it whatever you like. Me and Horace are past caring. McCnut (talk) 13:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Kiernan's Marxist irrelevancies
I removed a portion of the following from the section on Horace's education in Athens.


 * Rome's troubles following the assassination of Julius Ceaser were soon to catch up with him. Marcus Junius Brutus came to Athens seeking support for a republican cause that was bereft of ideas – the much-vaunted ideal of liberty was actually irrelevant in a conflict between elites.[26] The Athenians had a tradition of honouring tyrannicides, as types of their own heroes Harmodius and Aristogeiton, beside whose statues Brutus and his colleague Cassius were, by a popular decree, to be immortalized in bronze too.

This article draws entirely too much from Kiernan's book, which is more about his political ideas than it is about Horace. I will trim more when I have time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.134.188 (talk) 13:30, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Kipling's "parodies"
The sentence " Kipling wrote a famous parody of the Odes ..." : what does it refer to? The "Q. Horatii Flacci Carminum liber quintus" (Oxonii, Blackwell, 1920), a collection of Horatian imitations by a group of friends, is partly (in view of the title, of the pseudo-scholarly preface, etc.) a spoof, but not a "parody" in the sense of mocking or satirizing; and the same seems to me to be true of Kipling's "Horatian" poems in his Debits and Credits.Svato (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Amaryllis and Neaera
This may not be the right place to put this question, but I can find no relevant references to Amaryllis (mythology, I presume), apart from citations of Milton's poem, which do not explain who Amaryllis is. References to Neaera are opaque, as regards to Milton's citation. I am a naif in this area. I didn't find google to be particularly helpful. Certainly there are contributors who know this, just off hand. Thank you! Detail guy 18:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crbeals (talk • contribs)

Do-re-mi
Isn't solfege do-re-mi not from Horace, but from a hymn to St. John? The syllables were originally ut-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si, which are first syllables (or letters) of the hymn's semi-verses: ut queant laxis / resonare fibris / mira gestorum / famuli tuorum / solve polluti / labii reatum / sancte Iohannes (this is sapphic stophe of course). 212.87.13.78 (talk) 13:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Horace and Pope
There should be mention of Pope much influenced by Horace. Seadowns (talk) 00:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)