Talk:Horacio Gutiérrez

POV edits by IPS/Maryphillips1952
This article has now been protected from IP editing due to the repeated re-insertion of promotional material by Maryphillips1952 and a series of his/her IPs. MaryPhillips, this is your chance to DISCUSS the changes you wish to see in the article. Multiple editors have now told you that your edits are overly promotional and read like an advertisement, not an encyclopedia article. If you're willing to work with us, please list here the FACTS that you wish to see in the article, and we can help you phrase them appropriately. You may not continue creating new accounts or changing locations to just keep re-adding the promotional content to the article. If you want to add information to the article, you must discuss it here and get input from other editors before you put it into the article, since you don't seem to have a good grasp of what is and isn't appropriate to add. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I am a first time user to WIKI. I did not read any previous edits other than the existing biography before I made my initial edits which Ifelt added to the life, work, and accomplishments. I have never posted on WIKI before by any other name except my own Mary Phillips. I used WIKI at school today under my name--Maryphillips1952 (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I am sorry if I edited information out. The rewrites and additions were to make the website better than it was. I have not created another account and submitted to this biography previously, and would like to contribute to Mr. Gutierrez's biography to reflect the body of work and legacy. I tried to incorporate and follow the same format and information included in biographies on WIKI. There is similar information and quotes about many artists on WIKI. I chose to document most statemnts and tried to sound factual, not a publicist. I apologize for offending any editors. My intent is to make the biography more complete and substantial. I would very much like to work with everyone to help make it the best website possible. Can we start with each sentence/ section at a time and review together? These are the inserts I would like to make and justification. I would appreciate your help to convey it properly. I rewrote several sections per request and comments and added justifications to all insertions for your consideration and comments to rewrite together.

(CURRENT) Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana) is a pianist from Cuba. (Please insert revision) Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana), is a Cuban-American classical pianist. He is considered one of the great virtuoso pianists of our time..

Justification: The revison reflects his career as a Cuban-Amercian classical pianist. The London Times and Schonberg's work are both very well respected sources that attest to Gutierrez' talent. These are just two of the many citations I found about Mr. Gutierrez' being considered a great pianist and his virtuosity. I have seen many other biographies on WIKI with similar opening statements and documentation that write great and/or virtuoso. In Spanish the newspaper,Para Leer Si Queda Tiempo. Albert Muller writes, Horacio Gutierrez "El Mejor Pianista del Mundo" (translated The Best pianist in the World), Oct 2007. There are many artists that make such claim on WIKI with no documentation and/or use poor sources. I can find additional references or sources if you needed to document further. Mr Gutierrez is referenced as a great and also a virtuoso pianist in many sources.I felt these two-3 sources were sufficient to substantiate.

Maryphillips1952 (talk) 20:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Please insert new heading. Biography Gutierrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. A child prodigy, he began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. His life changed when the Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro gained control in 1959. At the time, he was 10 years old. There was political pressure on the family to send him to Czechoslovakia to study piano. Too young to be separated from the family, the family decided to leave the country.

Justification: Currently, there does not exist a biography section heading to document his early life. Gutierrez' personal and newspaper interviews reference his early life. Some of the interviews I found are in Spanish. I tried to be factual and to the point about his life since I did not want to make errors. It can be written to flow better. This section can be expanded in the future. Perhaps it can be placed in a new Biography Section. I did not document this section because I saw many similar WIKI pages with little or no documentation of early life. I can document this section, if needed. __________________________ Personal life (Cuurent) A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S., and is married to pianist Patricia Asher, another Masselos student. Gutiérrez suffers from bursitis and a chronic back injury.[2][3][4]

Insert revision- A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S., and is married to pianist Patricia Asher, who also studied with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music. Gutiérrez is an avid reader, and a great film and theater fan. His second cousin is renowned Cuban filmmaker Tomás Gutiérrez Alea. Gutiérrez suffers from bursitis and a chronic back injury.[2][3][4]

Justification: This is a minor revison about Patricia Asher, his wife. I wanted to reword this section to reflect she also studied with Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music. Perhaps it can be placed in the new Biography Section. Gutierrez interviews mention that his father Tomas V. Gutierrez and Tomas Gutierrez Alea are cousins. I found it interesting since Gutierrez is recorded for being a great film and theater fan! It seems to have a family connection. I have seen family connections of artists as an interesting side note in many biographies. Mr. Alea is well known and respected. You may be familiar with his film "Strawberry and Chocolate". I was trying add to the personal life section interesting, but factual information.

Performaces and Awards Section (Insert previous edit and minor rewording) Gutiérrez won the Silver Medal in the 1970 International Tchaikovsky Competition and was soon presented in all major concert venues by Sol Hurok's management, creating a sensation internationally. (Insert) His debut in Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto with Zubin Metha and the Los Angeles Philharmonic made critic Martin Bernheimer of the L.A. Times write, “His name is Horacio Gutiérrez. You won’t forget it". After his debut recital in London, Joan Chissell, critic of The Times of London wrote, "His virtuosity is of the kind of which legends are made." And added at the end of the review ... 'he could become one of the very great pianists of the century."

Justification:The first sentence was a minor edit. I replaced He with Gutierrez. The current edition deleted additional information. My edit of this section tries to document his career successes as well as to verify his virtuosity. It is not intended to be promotional in any way, but historical, factual and documenting his early success as a pianist. Both of these references come from excellent sources - London Times and L.A. Times. I merely want to document his early performaces' success and added historical and factual data of his success. Both reviewers are highly respected. I have seen many biographies on WIKI that include similar documentation of successes. These were particularly impressive at the time of his debut.

(Please Insert) In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements.

Justification: Avery Fisher Prize is given in recognition of musical achievements. This prize is highly coveted and should be noted in the biography.

(Please insert discography). Gutiérrez’s recordings include Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 with Lorin Maazel and the Pittsburgh Symphony, nominated for a Grammy Award. Brahms Concertos, both with Andre Previn and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Tchaikovsky’s Piano Concerto No. 1 and Rachmaninoff’s Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini with David Zinman and the Baltimore Symphony. He has recorded Prokofiev’s Concertos No. 2 and 3 with Neeme Jarvi and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Justification: Gutierrez has recorded with some of the best known orchestras and conductors in the world. This section can be verified easily. His records are well respected and need to be included in his biography.He was nominated for an Grammy and should be noted in the biography.

(Please insert) His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker.

Justification: This is a honorable, recent award and merits mention in the awards section.

(Please insert to summarize his legacy) Gutierrez is best known for memorable interpretations of the Romantic repertoire. However, he's also been highly praised for performances of the Classical style in music of composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms.

Justification: I found many articles describing his music and memorable interpretations. His musicality, style, and technique are recorded in many sources as being memorable and worthy of praise. I can document this sction if needed.

Thank you for help in making the best site possible. --Maryphillips1952 (talk) 03:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Reworking by user:Fluffernutter
Ok, let's see what we can do here. Mary, you dropped a whole lot of text just above, not all of it clear or comprehensible, so I'm going to try to go through and parse what it is you want. A few points before we get started, though. First, the fact that another article might contain some wording or claims is not a justification for this one containing them. Because this is a wiki, which anyone can edit and which is run by volunteers, sometimes other stuff exists when it shouldn't. Second, please read (if you haven't already) our neutrality policy and this information about "peacock" terms that we try to avoid; they may help you understand why the wordings you're suggesting aren't acceptably encyclopedic.


 * 1) Mary asks to use: (Please insert revision) Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana), is a Cuban-American classical pianist. He is considered one of the great virtuoso pianists of our time..
 * 2) Fluffernutter's opinion: No objection to "Cuban-American classical pianist." However, this is an encyclopedia, and we cover facts. Facts are things like "Gutiérrez has won award X" or "In reviews, Gutiérrez has been called 'a virtuoso'." Facts are not things that involve the article presenting an opinion, such as "Gutiérrez is a virtuoso".


 * 1) Mary asks to use: Gutierrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. A child prodigy, he began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. His life changed when the Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro gained control in 1959. At the time, he was 10 years old. There was political pressure on the family to send him to Czechoslovakia to study piano. Too young to be separated from the family, the family decided to leave the country.
 * 2) Fluffernutter's opinion: You're correct that the article could use some biography of him, but you do need to provide sources for this (again, just because other article's don't doesn't mean they're not supposed to), and the wording you're proposing is non-neutral. I would suggest something like: "Gutierrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. Gutiérrez began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. When Fidel Castro gained control of Cuba in 1959, the family decided to leave the country together rather than send Gutiérrez abroad alone at a young age."
 * 3) Mary proposes: A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S., and is married to pianist Patricia Asher, who also studied with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music. Gutiérrez is an avid reader, and a great film and theater fan. His second cousin is renowned Cuban filmmaker Tomás Gutiérrez Alea. Gutiérrez suffers from bursitis and a chronic back injury.[2][3][4]
 * 4) Fluffernutter's opinion: I understand your desire to include "interesting" things here, but most of what you're suggesting be added is unnecessary "fluff" - stuff that pads out the article without actually having anything to do with the article's subject. It doesn't really matter where his wife studied unless he met her there; it doesn't really matter whether he likes books or movies (who doesn't?). On the other hand, the mention of his health problems could probably be expanded, because according to the sources those have had an effect on his career.
 * 5) Mary proposes: Gutiérrez won the Silver Medal in the 1970 International Tchaikovsky Competition and was soon presented in all major concert venues by Sol Hurok's management, creating a sensation internationally. His debut in Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto with Zubin Metha and the Los Angeles Philharmonic made critic Martin Bernheimer of the L.A. Times write, “His name is Horacio Gutiérrez. You won’t forget it". After his debut recital in London, Joan Chissell, critic of The Times of London wrote, "His virtuosity is of the kind of which legends are made." And added at the end of the review ... 'he could become one of the very great pianists of the century."
 * 6) Fluffernutter's opinion: Again, we're running into the problem of trying to praise him rather than just write about the facts. An encyclopedia doesn't call someone a "sensation." An encylopedia describes facts. In the case of your first sentence here, the facts are that he won the Silver Medal and that he was presented in concert venues; it's someone's opinion whether that means he's a "sensation" or not. With regard to quoting the reviews, what you want to add is excessive. A more encyclopedic approach would be to say something like "Reviewers have generally been impressed by Gutiérrez's performances, with the Times of London calling them "virtuosity" ." This does what you want - it brings in the fact that people have called him a virtuoso - without sounding like we're advertising for him. We don't need to quote every review; that's what the references are for. We just need to say what the reviews mean for his career, and then move on.
 * 7) Mary proposes: In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements.
 * 8) Fluffernutter's opinion: No problem with this being added.
 * 9) Mary proposes: "Gutiérrez’s recordings include..."
 * 10) Fluffernutter's opinion: This is also fine, although it could perhaps be more easily expressed as a list instead of a paragraph of text.
 * 11) Mary proposes: His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker.
 * 12) Fluffernutter's opinion: No problem with this.
 * 13) Mary proposes: "Gutierrez is best known for memorable interpretations of the Romantic repertoire. However, he's also been highly praised for performances of the Classical style in music of composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms."
 * 14) Fluffernutter's opinion: No, this is the sort of thing that needs to be completely reworded, if it's usable at all. Define "memorable interpretations." Define "the classical style of." And so forth. This is handwaving language that makes him sound nice but doesn't actually add any knowledge to the encyclopedia article. You also absolutely need to cite your sources for this sort of thing. You could probably say "Reviewer X says that Gutierrez performs 'memorable interpretations' of [blah blah]," but you can't just say "he's best known for memorable interpretations," but until you provide some information about what sources you're using to make these conclusions, though, I can't really help you re-word the sentence.

Does this information all make sense to you? Do you understand now why some of the language you were trying to put into the article is problematic? Let's work out the correct wording here before we add anything into the article, and if you have any questions about our policies, please feel free to ask. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good.........I will work on the formatting and rewording the areas you mention. There are sections in the current bio that should stay that I did not include in revison. I will also read other pianists websites to see biography formatting and information cited for you to a look and respond. I have family interviews from personal interviews. I also asked for help and mentoring and rewording suggestions from others. So, it might be interesting to see additional suggestions. I do have a word of caution: We should all be careful to expand wisely. I was reading previous issues. It seems some people on this biogrpahy were meaning some damage to a great pianist's legacy. This must be deligently watched, and never allowed. This is a living biography of Mr. Gutierrez. He has an active career after five decades on stage. He did meet his wife Patricia at Julliard while she was studying with Adele Marcus.

I will work on another revision and resubmitt.

Edit request from Maryphillips1952, 27 June 2011
Thank you for your help. I incorporated your suggestions and reworded and added additional information for the biography. This is a work in progress. I will try to obtain more information. In addition, I am requesting minor changes in the template headings. --Maryphillips1952 (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Please Change "Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana) is a Cuban born American pianist" To "Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana) is a Cuban-American virtuoso classical pianist.

Justification:I reworded per your suggestion. Gutierrez is a virtuoso. The official Merriam-Webster Dictionary (and wiki) “A virtuoso (from Italian virtuoso, Late Latin virtuosus, Latin virtus meaning: skill, manliness, excellence) is an individual who possesses outstanding technical ability in the fine arts, at singing or playing a musical instrument.” It’s use with Gutierrez is accurate and most appropriate. It is not difficult to find sufficient documented sources attesting to his virtuosity and a virtuoso pianist throughout his life-time career. After four decades dedicated to outstanding classical music performance, Gutierrez has established himself as one of the great virtuoso pianists of our time. A quick search yielded many, many sources. I documented both (Grammy and Emmy) recognitions in the performance and awards section of the site.

Please Change and resection the wiki page template headings, Please Change "Personal Life heading" to "Biography" heading

Please add the following biography to Mr. Gutierrez' website. "Gutiérrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. Gutiérrez began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. When Fidel Castro gained control of Cuba in 1959, the family decided to leave the country together rather than send Gutiérrez abroad alone at a young age."

Justification: I used your rewording in it's entirety for this section. I translated the Spanish article which documents this section about his family. Thank you.

May I add in paranthesis next to Tomas V. Gutierrez (cousin of [Tomás Gutiérrez Alea], Cuban filmmaker)

Please change the location of this paragraph in the current location and add to the biography paragraph: "He moved with his family to the United States in 1961, at the age of 13, and studied in Los Angeles with Sergey Tarnowsky (1882-1976), Vladimir Horowitz's first teacher in Kiev, and later at the Juilliard School of Music under Adele Marcus (1906-1995), a pupil of Russian pianist Josef Lhevinne. He later worked extensively with American pianist William Masselos (1920-1992), a pupil of Carl Friedberg (1872-1955), who himself had studied with Clara Schumann and Brahms."

Justification: This is currently in the biography. I am requesting a location change.

Please add this paragraph to the biography section. "He was first seen on American television in 1966, on one of the famous Young People's Concerts with Leonard Bernstein, playing an excerpt from "[Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modeste Moussorgsky]."

Justification: This is currently in the biography.

Please add this paragraph "On August 23, 1970, Gutiérrez made his debut with the Los Angeles Philharmonic with Zubin Metha conducting the Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. Martin Bernheimer, music critic of the Los Angeles Times, describes his first appearance with the orchestra as "spectacular."

Justification: Documentation of his Los Angeles debut.--Maryphillips1952

Please change this paragraph "A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S., and is married to pianist Patricia Asher, another Masselos student." to "A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S. He met his wife, pianist Patricia Asher, while she was studying with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music."

Justification: Mr. Gutierrez met his wife while they were both students at Julliard. This is common knowledge.

Gutiérrez suffers from bursitis and a chronic back injury.

Please keep heading Performance and awards Please change "He won the Silver Medal in the 1970 Tchaikovsky competition and was soon presented in major concert venues by Sol Hurok's management" To "He won the Silver Medal in the 1970 Tchaikovsky competition and was soon presented in major world-wide concert venues by Sol Hurok's management. After his debut recital in London, Joan Chissell, of the Times of London acclaimed, “His virtuosity is of the kind of which legends are made.” Justification: Thank you for the reference suggestion. It is condensed.

Please insert He has played with major orchestras and conductors, including Maazel, Andrew Davis, Josef Krips, Rostropovich, David Zinman, Gerard Schwarz, Andrew Litton, Kurt Masur, James Levine, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, Christoph Eschenbach, Mehta, Eugene Ormandy, Valery Gergiev, Ozawa, Previn, Leinsdorf, Yuri Ahronovich, Tennstedt, Ashkenazy, Barenboim and many others.

Justification: This paragraph currently exists. I am rearranging the order of the existing information.

Please insert in performances and awards section. "In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements."

Please change from "He taught at New York's Manhattan School of Music from 2004 to 2009." to "He taught at New York's Manhattan School of Music from 2004 to 2009."

Please insert: "Mr. Gutierrez is best known for his interpretation of the Romantic repertoire. He has been highly praised for performances of the Classical style in music of composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms."

Please insert in performances and award: "Mr. Gutierrez won an Emmy award for his fourth appearance with the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center."

Please insert in performances and awards: "Mr. Gutiérrez was featured in Harold C. Schonberg’s work, “The Great Pianists: From Mozart to Present”.

Please insert. He has recorded for EMI, Telarc, and Chandos Records.

Gutiérrez’s recordings include: Prokofiev’s Concertos No. 2 and 3 with Neeme Jarvi and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 with Lorin Maazel and the Pittsburgh Symphony. The record was nominated for a Grammy award. Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 with Andre Previn and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Brahms Piano Concerto No.2 with Andre Previn and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 and Rachmaninoff’s Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini with David Zinman and the Baltimore Symphony.

Please insert: "Mr. Gutiérrez is a strong champion of contemporary American composers. He has performed works by William Schuman, André Previn, and George Perle."

Please insert "His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker. Mr. Perle dedicated Nine Bagatelles to Mr. Gutiérrez."

I reworded the sentences per suggestions. Thank you.

--Maryphillips1952 (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)--Maryphillips1952 (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC) !-- End request -->
 * Mary, I've implemented most of your requests, but unfortunately I did so before you updated them just now. Take a look at what I did and let me know if anything else needs changing. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 01:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: marking as such, waiting on user input. Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jnorton7558...while there may be more to do I think we can safely say that the original request has been answered. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 19:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Second Batch
Is it possible to add virtuoso to "Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana) is a Cuban-American virtuoso classical pianist." I had another sentence, but perhaps adding the word virtuoso is sufficient and don't need to add "Mr. Gutiérrez is a virtuoso pianist with both Grammy and Emmy awards recognition." Which reading do you think is best?
 * Copied from User talk:Robert Skyhawk

Please place "He was seen on American television in 1966, on one of the famous Young People's Concerts with Leonard Bernstein, playing an excerpt from Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modeste Moussorgsky. [1]" from the top section of the biography and insert above, "He currently lives and works in the U.S.  He met his wife, pianist Patricia Asher, while she was studying with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music."[3][4] Please delete the repeated "He was seen on American television in 1966, on one of the famous Young People's Concerts with Leonard Bernstein, playing an excerpt from Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modeste Moussorgsky. [1]" with no active links.

Please add this paragraph after "He was seen on America televion...." "On August 23, 1970, Gutiérrez made his debut with the Los Angeles Philharmonic with Zubin Metha conducting the Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. His first appearance was described by Martin Bernheimer as "spectacular".

Performance and awards

Please insert after ….. Barenboim and many others “In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements."[4] The sentence “He has recorded for EMI, Telarc and Chandos Records.”  is repeated in two places, please delete from the first paragraph. I added citation requested. ( http://www.seldycramerartists.com/bio_gutierrez.html)

Please add reference source to "He taught at New York's Manhattan School of Music from 2004 to 2009." (http://www.msmnyc.edu/catalog/facbio.asp?fid=1031042084)

Minor edit. Please remove reference, it should read "Mr. Gutiérrez was featured in Harold C. Schonberg’s work, “The Great Pianists: From Mozart to Present.

Please insert at the bottom of the discography section "Mr. Gutiérrez is a strong champion of contemporary American composers. He has performed works by William Schuman, André Previn, and George Perle." "His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker.[8] Mr. Perle dedicated Nine Bagatelles to Mr. Gutiérrez."

Again, thank you.--Maryphillips1952 (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I moved the above section to this page in the interest of centralized discussion. Mary, we'll go over these changes and see how we like them...you seem to have largely gotten the hang of this, perhaps you'd like to start editing the page directly? It's much faster than having us do it. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 19:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Great! Thank you for the editing help. As an experienced editor on wiki, your editorial expertise is very much appreciated. I would like to make sure the edits are OK. Do you have any additional suggestions? Maryphillips1952 (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I made the edits to the website. Thank you for all your help. Best, Mary98.178.187.55 (talk) 01:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I think someone else is trying to make changes, too. I made changes per discussion on talk biography page. I tried very hard and hope I met your standards. Thank you for your help. Best, Mary Maryphillips1952 (talk) 03:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

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weasel words, clean up
This article needs the citations properly moved to proper inline locations, not bombed with ten sources on end of one sentence. There are peacock words that needs to be removed as well. Until then, the NPOV tag should remain up. Graywalls (talk) 03:57, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * GW, it seems that MaryPhillips removed the tag, but I arrived shortly after and have given things a good scrub. The article is starting to resemble something neutral.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 07:49, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

assertion that he's one of the greatest pianist
The source originally was the blog section of the Tulsa World, then it was reinserted with a book as a source. These sources aren't quite adequate to support an exceptional claim. WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Graywalls (talk) 07:34, 28 June 2020 (UTC) --add: The same concern I have was raised years ago Talk:Horacio_Guti%C3%A9rrez but years later it appears Maryphillips1952 subjective interpretation anyways in Special:Diff/900132574 anyways; and again in Special:Diff/964932369 by the same user. The concerns over presenting interpretation of the material read as fact is an original research. The sources give the respective author's opinion, not generally accepted facts. So "some reviews have said..." is a more appropriate paraphrasing than "is considered...". This has been a cause of disagreement in 2011; and I fully agree with the opposing editor. Graywalls (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's the version before their last set of major edits. Here is the version after which User:Maryphillips1952 inserted contents that is controversial. Even though the blog section of Tulsa World is no longer used, the controversy remains in that reliable sources do not directly support the claim of fact "one of the greatest pianist" that they insist on inserting. Graywalls (talk) 15:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I find inconsistencies and bias against Mr. Gutierrez by Graywalls. Other classical posts contain blogs, and paper reviews as reference of claim. I located additional sources for the article. Edit includes additional references Gutiérrez's performance career spans over four decades and is considered one of the great pianists. {{cite book|last=Schonberg|first=Harold C.|title=The Great Pianists: From Mozart to Currently 4 sources plus his body of work, records, and other can attest. User:Maryphillips1952

discussion migrated
discussion below migrated from my talk page: Graywalls (talk) 15:19, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I made wiki edits to several wikis including Mr. Gutierrez. I will continue to edit this summer. Pleas see references posted. I use appropriate references to substantiate postings.User: talk: maryphillips1952 Is there a bias in your edits? User: talk: maryphillips1952
 * , No bias. Please continue further discussion on the article's talk page. Graywalls (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Mr. Graywalls I have edited many posts. Many contain great and greatest and I do not remove from posts. These posts have less references than Mr. Gutierrez. I believe a review of bias in editing may need further review. My reference to Mr. Gutierrez is NOT a blog from paper. Harold Schonberg    User: talk: maryphillips1952

, The Chautauquan Daily piece is a guest reviwer opinion. See WP:SYN. In one of your edits, you said in "and body of work and award attest to description" based on your own analysis of various reviews and aggregating opinions and presenting them as a fact. Graywalls (talk) 07:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls may be a biased/prejudiced  editor and may have personal reasons with Mr Gutierrez' post. Mr. Gutierrez' post has been extensively vetted by editors over the years. Other classical musicians use websites and newspaper articles to reference spects of their playing. I followed the same format as in other posts and referenced any citations editors felt were needed. Mr. Gutierrez's article has been vetted and resolved by other editors. Graywalls continues to delete information from the the post. I have stated I do not receive money for writing and editing any wiki posts I do. I am a contributor to Wikipedia and have worked on other posts. My concern is that Grywalls may be biased in his edits and prejudiced and choosing to delete certain posts and terminology form some posts (Mr. Gutierrez in particular) and not others I am not new to editing for Wiki, but still have a lot to learn. I am following pattern established in other classical musician's post. I try to reference everything I find and often reference wiki citations for other posts.
 * This is not the proper use of the help me template... I would suggest discussing the issue via WP:DRN - Rich T&#124;C&#124;E-Mail 12:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , well there's already a discussion I've started at NPOV noticeboard well before Maryphillips1952 started the helpme request and left them a notice on their page as required to do so. I felt that was the appropriate way to proceed. Graywalls (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Either a copyright violation or a circular referencing issue in early life section
It contains a fair amount of identical text from https://web.archive.org/web/20180930081142/https://www.pcmsconcerts.org/artist/horacio-gutierrez-piano/ September 2018 is as early as the archive goes and the same phrasing pre-dates that on Wikipedia, but I'm not certain if the source existed before that or they copied from Wikipedia. Would someone else give a crack at this to figure out the order in which they were originally published? Graywalls (talk) 00:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I can find from WikiBlame, some of the text was first added in June 2011, bit by bit. For instance, in this edit on 25 June 2011 the sentence "His mother, Josephine Gutierrez, was his first piano teacher, herself an accomplished pianist." was added, and on 26 June it was rephrased to "His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist." (The edit history from June 2011 is illuminating. The user registered the now-blocked account on 25 June, made a lot of edits over a couple of days as the account and as an IP, and then edit warred to keep them in, until the article was semi protected on 27 June. That was followed by the discussion at the top of this page.) Anyway, it looks like the Wikipedia article is probably the original source for the text, since it was edited and rephrased here.


 * It is frustrating trying to find earlier versions of the profile at pcmsconcerts.org, because although Gutiérrez' is e.g. in this listing from 2015: https://web.archive.org/web/20151001123024/https://www.pcmsconcerts.org/artist/instrument/piano-2/page/5/, clicking his name leads to the September 2018 page... --bonadea contributions talk 21:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Good old citogenesis again. Bonadea, you're using WikiBlame? It's kind of been superseded by a much better feature called "Who wrote that?". See . It's pure gold. Bishonen &#124; tålk 21:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC).


 * https://cupresents.org/event/10569/artist/horacio-gutierrez/ another ticketing related site, but this one references performance in 1979. As to when the text was originally written, I still don't know. Graywalls (talk) 13:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * , I see you removed the contents in question at Special:Diff/974237389. How did you finally figure out which came first? Graywalls (talk) 21:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Shortly after I removed that, I thought "maybe the concert bio copied their blurb from Wikipedia?" I erred on the side of caution, figuring it would be simple to restore with some paraphrasing.

Source for later use
This one is a wealth of information https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/04/arts/a-pianist-who-won-t-rush-into-things.html Graywalls (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)