Talk:Hugs and kisses

untitled
Not sure where this should be merged... anyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Syynapse (talk • contribs).

According to ananonymous sources:
It has been said that perhaps it might be a good idea to maybe remove just a few of the somewhat weasel-like words from this article that many people believe otherwise would be a reasonably good article.

~Eric[who?] 184.76.225.106 (talk) 09:37, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Jewish practice?
"Another thought is that it came from Jewish immigrants who would sign with an "O" instead of an x because they did not wish to mark their word with the obviously non-Jewish cross the x represented." Is there any evidence of this hypothesis? Like documents that Jews signed with an "O"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.202.73.187 (talk • contribs).


 * I doubt this hypothesis too - I come from the lubelskie region of Poland, where Jews and Christians have cohabited for centuries and the term "XOXO" is unknown here. I myself have checked it in Wikipedia because I didn't know what it meant and thought it was a part of leetspeak. Also, I've heard that literacy was quite common among Jews - I think there was some religious dictation to learn kids to read and write. Therefore the need to sign documents with "O" would be much more scarce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.48.33.248 (talk • contribs) 06:13, September 17, 2006

The "Another thought..." part is within the paragraph about possible speculation - is it not clear that this is also an unproven theory? If not, then perhaps and edit is in order. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Syynapse (talk • contribs).


 * Agreed that the "Jewish immigrants = O" should be cut (or referenced). 216.159.236.200 07:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if it was true, that jews signed documents with an "O", what would this mean for the "XOXO"-thing? I don't see the connection between this "O" and a hug. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.168.192.11 (talk • contribs) 14:17, March 6, 2007


 * Well, until some kind of verifiable source is found, let's keep it out of the article. -- Emana 21:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Complete nonsense and primarily intended to discredit the entire article. Logically the circle would be representative of a hug. There is no reason for Kiss and Kiss. So the O is not equivalent to an X. Therefore the entire conjecture of this "Jewish practice" is just plain inventive nonsense and frankly insulting to illiterate Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.168.187 (talk) 05:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The O-story is just some speculation by one web page, replicated by another one. Also it does not sound very convincing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.67.64.121 (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Alt meaning?
I always thought XOXO meant "love and kisses", but I'm just a guy, and guys like to think those things. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.136.34 (talk • contribs).

I found an interesting XOXO modern design/symbol with the XOXO revealing two figures interlocking together from an overhead perspective. The designer of this refer XOXO as Love & Kisses.Ohmygoddess01 (talk) 16:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

"Another interpretation of the X used in more modern times is the interlocking of 4 legs, thus creating the shape of an X. The origins of the O as a kiss are not generally known." I see no reason to have unreferenced citations for the origin of the 'X' in this article, it seems the possible origins of the X are well known and are probably not from interlocking legs... I would like to see a citation for this if it were. 71.56.201.149 (talk) 18:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

There is however the usage of two brackets as "hugs" emoticon, possibly around another emoticon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.67.64.121 (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

pronunciation
is it pronounced at all or just reads 'hugs n kisses'? my native is greek and the writing of it in english seems a bit funny to me since writing in greek 'xoxo' would be a silly word sounding 'hohoh!' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.132.11 (talk • contribs) 18:06, August 30, 2006

I think it's usually just said "Hugs and kisses", though it would probably be acceptable just to say "ecks oh, ecks oh, ecks oh". I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple of movies where they say it "Hugs and kisses", it's a shame I can't remember their titles, as they'd make good references. Anyone else know of one? --203.173.242.208 19:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation for 'XO' - Xoán
The disambiguation page for 'XO' reads as follows: "Xo is well known for being short for Xoán, which is where the expression XoXo comes from (meaning hugs and kisses) as Xoán is Galician for seducer of women." Is this valid, and should it be included here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.157.192.238 (talk • contribs).


 * I can find nothing to support such an assertion, so it would appear to be a joke. I have removed it from that page again and asked for a cite.  Of course, he's added the same odd statement there many times without providing a source, so I'm not really expecting anything from him/her.   Kuru  talk  02:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

sealed vs opened
How about this, if X is "sealed" then would O be "opened"? I wonder if there are other uses where X and O mean opposite ends. -- Emana 22:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to the above, in E&M physics, diagrams with magnetic fields often need to represent motion or other fields in the two axes available on a sheet of paper, so the magnetic field itself is imagined to run perpendicular to the page. Many textbooks use a grid of O's to represent that the direction of the field points out of the page, and X's when the field lines run into the page. --24.130.50.167 (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Rings a bell from my school/uni days (Scotland, 1973-82). The O has a dot at the centre, representing an arrow(head) pointing straight at you. The X is an arrow going away from you - with 4 feathers as 'flights'. I would assume it's unrelated, unless you fancifully imagine Cupid, or cherubs exchanging arrows back and forth between sender and recipient !--195.137.93.171 (talk) 08:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Kisses X versus O
If it is true that the second of these two explanations... It is debatable which letter represents which act. Some interpret X as the crossed arms of a hug and O as the puckered lips of a kiss. However, the interpretation assumed in the following, in which X represents the four lips of a kiss and O the four arms of a hug, is more common. is more common, than I think it should be the first one listed. Followed by the less accepted variation. I say this only because this came up today, and as I read the article you think the conclusion has been reached (X - hug, O - kiss) in the first sentence. I almost didn't read on. Considering I see no sources anywhere, though, I'm not going to actually edit the article. Shy 02:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "One interpretation assumes that X represents the four arms of a hug and O the four lips of a kiss. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary states that X is "used to represent a kiss, esp. in the subscription to a letter."[5] Another interpretation assumes X as the crossed arms of a hug and O as the puckered lips of a kiss,[citation needed] as the order is normally spoken "Hugs and Kisses" which would correspond to the order that the x's and o's are written."
 * This argument begins with a possible explanation, then refers to a source of the opposite explanation, then reverts abck to the original explanation without citing it at all.71.56.201.149 (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I have always thought that X's are hugs and O's are kisses (not the other way around). For years I've seen platonic friends (including brothers) sign emails to each other with "XX", and lovers sign "XOXO," until they break up when it reverts back to "XX". In general the OED is definitive, and it clearly says "X" is kiss. But I'm not so sure, in this case. Note that the OED does not include "hug" as a definition for "O"! So it's not quite as clear as it seems. My guess is that "XOXO" for hugs AND kisses is an Americanization, with much increase of use in the Internet age. This may have changed the original usage, and not yet been reflected in the OED (as with much American slang and idiom -- e.g., 'ho.). For those without access, here's the full OED entry on "X" as kiss: >>>
 * 6. Used to represent a kiss, esp. in the subscription to a letter.
 * Dates: 1763, 1894, 1951, 1953, 1982
 * 1763 G. WHITE Lett. (1901) I. vii. 132, I am with many a xxxxxxx and many a Pater noster and Ave Maria, Gil. White. 1894 W. S. CHURCHILL Let. 14 Mar. in R. S. Churchill Winston S. Churchill I. Compan. I. (1967) vii. 456 Please excuse bad writing as I am in an awful hurry. (Many kisses.) xxx WSC. 1951 S. PLATH Let. 7 July (1975) I. 72 Some gal by the name of Sylvia Plath sure has something{em}but who is she anyhow?..x x Sivvy. 1953 DYLAN THOMAS Under Milk Wood (1954) 41 Yours for ever. Then twenty-one X's. 1982 C. FREMLIN Parasite Person vi. 40 A row of ‘X's’, hurried kisses, all he had time to scribble.

<<<Again, the OED has no related definition for "O", or "XO," or "XOXO". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.159.236.200 (talk • contribs) 01:22, March 2, 2007

The other arguments offered as to why "X" stands for kiss seem weak to me. (No offense meant, just my reaction.) E.g., pronunciation?? You've gotta be kidding. :-) In fact, "X" sounds more like "eggs" which is more like "hugs" (esp. w/ non-aspirated "h"). There is a children's riddle, "FUNEX?  S,IFX.  FUNEM?  S,IFM.  OK,LFMNX." -- which stands for: "'ave you any eggs?  Yes, I have eggs.  'Ave you any ham?  Yes, I have ham.  OK, I'll have ham and eggs."  By contrast, when you say "O" what do your lips do?  They form a kiss!  To suggest that "O sounds like hold, as in I hold you" -- vs. "I hug you" strikes me as a really thin argument.  In fact, someone should cut that paragraph (or add from this one).  Until someone provides more definitive origins on X's and O's, or an authentic poll on usage, I suggest this article conclude that the symbolism is used differently by different people, and not take one side or the other.  Signing with an "X" for the illiterate seems to have no connection to hugs or kisses.  What is the documentation/citation/reference for "kissing the X at the end of a letter as a seal of honesty"??? I've never heard of that. 216.159.236.200 07:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Because you do have a reference I am am very supportive of the article simply discussing the orgination of the X and that of the O is unknown. This may invite someone that has sources to provide insight on this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.201.149 (talk) 17:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

In American idiom, often x = hugs, o = kisses: Agreed with User:216.159.236.200 (above) that the usage has evolved, from the early origins described above: 1) In the American idiom, "xx" is now used platonically, whereas "xoxo" is for lovers. 2) Most Americans do not give greeting/parting kisses platonically (unlike in Europe, MENA, Latin America). And, 3) "xo" is pronounced in sequence "hugs and [then] kisses", not "kisses and hugs". There is a prima faciae argument that at least in the American idiom (often though not always), the "x" now stands for hugs and the "o" for (romantic) kisses. ("o", like the round lips of the mouth, made when '| putting your lips together and blow -ing a kiss'). Benefac (talk) 06:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

An example from 1905: x = "kiss": From a recent edit, I was trying to figure out where to link "xxxx" (this page will do) -- in regard to a tragic circumstance where a body washed ashore (from a shipwreck) and the following note was recovered:

"Dear Father: Good-bye. I have a bank book in the Cleveland Society of Savings. Good-bye mother, dear sister and brother. xxxx A kiss for all" -- Obviously, in this example, "x" = "kiss" (do the math)

Re: The SS Kaliyuga was a steamship that sank with the loss of 16 lives on Lake Huron on the night of October 19/20, 1905.


 * The article should state that the X is widely axcepted as the kiss (from written literature) but the origins of the O are not known. Then there should be another paragraph discussing other possible explanations of both and where they may have come from. This discussion should not be in the second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.201.149 (talk) 18:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * With no reliable reasons given for the "O equals hug" usage, I'd say it's probably an analogy with other uses of X and O together in games (tic-tac-toe, football play diagrams). O stands for hugs because people think of hugs and kisses as going together--the same way that the letters do.  --Ingeborg S. Nordén (talk)

How do you know that it is more common one way or the other? Are there published polls or something? It seems silly, but I had never heard it the 'more common way' until now when my girlfriend and I were argueing about it, but my she has only heard it the more 'common way.' So I would like to see some sort of source or something to why its more common one way or the other. (Because I'm a guy and I don't like to be proven wrong :-P) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.133.161 (talk • contribs) 21:53, May 31, 2006


 * I've taken a poll, and discovered that more people believe x = kiss and o = hug. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.164.245 (talk • contribs) 9:47,  19 Decembre 2007


 * Although we appreciate your endeavors, sadly, Wikipeida is not the place for original research. <3 :-* 71.184.152.225 (talk) 04:33, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Explanations of X
i remember in spanish class when i was younger our teacher said that X came to represent a kiss because of the way that letter's name is pronounced in spanish, sounding like "a kiss"... i always saw the x as the kiss and the o as the hug anyway. 89.138.165.53 22:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The spanish equivalent of 'a kiss' is 'un beso', I would find it a stretch if this was the origination of the term. Sounds much more like a coincidence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.201.149 (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe you misunderstand - the pronunciation of 'X' in Spanish makes a sound like the sound a kiss makes - not the Spanish word that means 'kiss' - see onomatopoeia ?--195.137.93.171 (talk) 08:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest the following ? the Greek letter X (khi) is pronounced chi as in kinetics Some distinguished British gentleman studying Greek language realised that XX sounds like kiss (1 khi, 2 khis=1 kiss) Therefore XXX can be interpreted as kisses. Et voilà

Alt Explanations of X O
It was probably chosen for the same reason that we chose to use Xs and Os for Tic-Tac-Toe and also why teachers mark tests with Xs and Os... although many American teachers like to use the check mark. -- Emana 22:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

very good reference for further page editing
can be found here http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=450133 --85.156.58.86 (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is a very good resource:
 * Subject: Re: Hugs & Kisses and X's & O's
 * Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 01 Jan 2005 14:16 PST
 * "I've gathered some material for you on the subject of how X's and O's came to represent kisses and hugs. Traditionally, the X stands for a kiss and the O for a hug..." -96.237.15.189 (talk) 12:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Use in pop culture
Personally, and I'm sure it applies for many others, I only heard of the phrase from the TV show 'Gossip Girl', I propose a small statement be added to reflect this, perhaps also any other known references? (Steadders (talk) 01:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC))

The "Wrong-Way Tanner" episode of Full House mentions the phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.132.124 (talk) 08:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

not so old, but i saw it used in the movie Deathproof 212.179.134.2 (talk) 07:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Reaper S02E05 mentions this in letter at 08:35. 188.163.84.1 (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I've seen XOXO used (and pronounced letter-by-letter) in the movie Joe Dirt; the title character sees it on a (faked) love note between his girlfriend and another man. --Ingeborg S. Nordén (talk) 04:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

kisses
Shows expression of love Ratie Ramz (talk) 09:54, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Original source
All speculation "on" the internet involves "original sources", that does not make it any more credible.203.80.61.102 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Written vs. spoken
I don't want to make changes to the article and the Wiktionary entry without inquiring first. Shouldn't it be read as written? I mean, doesn't 'XOXO' mean "kisses and hugs" and not the other way around, since the Xs are the kisses, and the Os are the hugs? Why do these entries say "Hugs and kisses" but not write it 'OXOX'? &#8212;&#160;CJDOS,&#160;Sheridan,&#160;OR&#160;(talk) 09:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Florence Montgomery's Seaforth quote
Curious by that example, I downloaded the book as a pdf, did a thorough search with a few of the words in the quote (incl. e.g. "young") and couldn't find it. Either the quote doesn't appear in the edition I have, or it is falsely credited. Please someone with access to the OED check this. 176.12.16.222 (talk) 20:35, 21 January 2024 (UTC)