Talk:Humid subtropical climate/Archive 1

How to wikify
I am currently exploring how to wikify articles properly, so it would be great if someone could voice their opinion on what else should be improved or if this is okay. I have not yet removed the wikify template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aiyana (talk • contribs) 15:21, 4 June 2005 (UTC)

difference
Whats the difference between Humid subtropical climate, and subtropical climate.--67.141.107.247 22:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There are dry subtropical climates -- steppes and deserts -- as well as the dry-summer Mediterranean climates that also have mild winters.
 * Thus from west to east in America....
 * San Francisco, California... Mediterranean Csb
 * Stockton, California ...    Mediterranean Csa
 * San Diego, California...    Dry-summer steppe BShs or BSks
 * Definitely subtropical due to the absence of a real winter...
 * Calexico, California...     Hot desert, winter max  BWhs
 * Phoenix, Arizona...         Hot desert, no max      BWh
 * El Paso, Texas              Hot desert, summer max  BWhw
 * Midland, Texas              Hot steppe, summer max  BShw
 * Again subtropical due to the absence of a cold winter....
 * Dallas, Texas               Subtropical moist        Cfa
 * even if Dallas barely has enough rainfall to be considered 'humid' and looks as if it is in a semi-desert
 * Jackson, Mississippi        Subtropical moist        Cfa
 * That's the distinction.
 * --Paul from Michigan 04:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree that Dallas looks like a semi-desert. The Dallas area has more in common with the eastern part of Texas(piny woods), not the far western part(desert), looks more like a wooded Prairie.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultrasonic128 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Southeastern Pennsylvania
The climate of southeastern Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey is markedly different from those of central, northern, and western Pennsylvania -- decidely warmer, and more similar to that of northern Virginia.

Some climate maps put the Cfa/Dfa line north of new York City; some put it south of New York City. None put it south of Philadelphia. --Paul from Michigan 04:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That is the 0°C/-3°C (32-27°F) distinction. The former distinct (freeze line) seems to make more sense; I'd hardly call those areas "subtropical". CrazyC83 02:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In addition, if the -3°C (27°F) line was used, a few areas on the east coast (such as Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket and parts of Cape Cod) would locally fall in the Cfb oceanic climate (since the ocean influence would keep summer temperatures around 70-71°F for a median and they have winter median temperatures just under freezing). They instead have a local Dfb in a general Dfa region. CrazyC83 22:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * SE Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey are really in the transition zone, with Philadelphia experiencing an average annual minimum temperature of 46 degrees F, just below the 50 degree threshold for subtropical. But Baltimore's annual minimum temperature is 52 degrees, making it just inside the true subtropical climate zone.  Baltimore city and the region surrounding the chesapeake Bay are truly subtropical, if barely.  the transition zone begins at Baltimore's western suburbs, although Washington DC in in the transition zone.  the updated map reflects this.  See the climate section for Maryland, and this will corroborate.  If anything, Nashville's annual minimum of 49 degrees would put it in the transition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongbad1982 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * According to "Updated world map of the Köppen-Geiger climate classification", whether a location is continental or subtropical depends on the average temperature of its coldest month, not its annual minimum. It states that if the coldest month temperature is above 32 °F, it's subtropical. According to weather.com and the NOAA, Nashville's mean January temperature is 37 °F, placing it well within the subtropical zone. Flash94 (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I live in Pennsylvania and there is nothing about it that is subtropical. We have no palm trees, no Spanish moss or citrus groves in this state either. Koppen should visit  PA in the winter and realize how boringly cold it is. Heck, our last frost isn't until Mother's Day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.154.149 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Subtropical?
Doesn't "subtropical" mean "BELOW the tropic"? How can places well ABOVE the tropics be characterized as "subtropical"? Why not simply "tropical"? Tmangray 22:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The word "subtropical" actually means "nearly tropical." It refers to climates that lie just outside the "true" tropical zone near the Equator.  There is some debate as to exactly where the subtropical zone lies - some reckonings place it between 15 and 30 degrees' latitude, while others define it as roughly 20-35 degrees' latitude or even 25-40 latitude.
 * The climate labeled as "humid subtropical" in the Koppen system is generally found in the 25-40 latitude range; however, even if you use the more stringent definition where the coldest month is above 0C, the humid subtropical zone includes places such as Washington, D.C. and the interior of northern Italy - places that have a very pronounced winter season. IMHO, the "humid subtropical" climate is probably better thought of as a warm temperate climate, due to the definite winter cool season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karlbonner1982 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Milan
Milan in Italy does have summers warmer than 22 degr Celsius, the coldest winter month has an average of 1 degr C and there is, unlike most of the mediterranean, frequent summer precipitation. See here. Whether Britannica labels the climate continental or not does not say very much; many of the areas in the United States mentioned in the article could be labeled continental as well. The temperature distinction between the humid continental and humid subtropical is the -3 degr C (0 C in the US) in the coldest month. The label subtropical might seem strange for a location where there might be snowing in winter, but that goes for many locations in the US and China as well...There is an area from the Po valley in northern Italy and in parts of the Balkan which fullfills all criteria given in the article. Orcaborealis 10:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Source for summer precipitation here. Orcaborealis 10:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Climate is not just a matter of matching average temperatures and preciptation. Milan is not subtropical, as Zurich is not subtropical and have a very similar climate. The Po valley has literally nothing to do with subtropical climate regions. Dantadd 21:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So? Well, then you are clearly mistaken, Zurich is actually much cooler in summer and a little colder in winter, as you can see here; the summer is not warm enough to qualify. You talk as if you know something more than anyone else, but you provide little or no source for your claims. I have provided a credible source. Give some sources and tell us what more we should know. Otherwise, your changes to the article should be reverted. Orcaborealis 22:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, no...you have an unsourced claim, my source was already given: the Milan article on Enc. Britannica. Please give a reliable source that states CLEARLY that Milan has a subtropical climate. You're the only one trying to transform the Northern Italy in a subtropical island in Europe, but I'm not sure what is your motivation. I've lived long years in Milan and a whole year in Zurich and I can assure the both cities have a very similar weather. In spite of it, labelling the Po valley as subtropical is so ridiculous that simply I can't believe that there is a discussion about that. Dantadd 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My only motivation is to get it right. The only determinants in the Koppen climate classification is average monthly and year temperature, and sesonality of precipitation. I have provided sources proving that the warmest month is above 22 degr C, that the coldest month is no colder than 1 degr Celsius, and that Milan, unlike the rest of the Mediterranean, get a lot of precipitation in summer. But here is another source clearly stating that Milan indeed has a Cfa climate: National Geographics climate map, which can be viewed here. Orcaborealis 07:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Another map, climate map of Europe, this time from the worldbook encyclopedia, clearly stating a humid subtropical climate in parts of Northern Italy, a narrow strip on the Balkans and in a large part of Bulgaria can be viewed here. I would also suggest you stop using words like ridiciulous. Orcaborealis 11:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And take a look at the climate map based on the Koppen classification here. This time from Wikipedia itself. That's three good sources clearly stating humid subtropical in this area. Can we now put this back in the article? Orcaborealis 11:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Information about the Ispra station near Milan clearly states a humid subtropical climate as seen here.Orcaborealis 13:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * From the journal History of Meteorology (2) 2005, a scientific journal. Look at the map at page 6, displaying climate regions in Europe and the Middle East. Again, Cfa - humid subtropical - in part of Northern Italy and part of the Balkans. The article is here (pdf) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcaborealis (talk • contribs) 13:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I use the words I find appropriate, and ridiculous is the definition of the comparision that you want to make. You simply want to inform the readers that Milan (or Ljubljana by the maps you've shown) have the same climate of Northern Taiwan, Chekiang or others areas that have average annual temperatures higher than 17ºC when the average annual temperature for Milan is 11ºC. This map (http://www.worldbook.com/wb/images/content_spotlight/climates/europe_climate.gif) is simply wrong! It's totally insane to state that the Trentino-Alto Adige, the Friuli-Venezia Giulia (in Italy), the western part of Slovenia and even Sarajevo have a humid subtropical climate. It's totally wrong and there's no reliable data that could back up this awfully done map. Take a look again in the map and you will see that all the eastern Italian Alps range is classified as "humid subtropical"...it's a joke, isn't it?

You're simply saying that Trento or Udine have the same climate as Taipei or Jacksonville...it's really out of the question and it demonstrates a total lack of knowledge about the climate in this region of the world.

This map (http://www3.shastacollege.edu/dscollon/images/Maps-Images/world_climate_map.jpg) is another example of bad work. It states  that Pittsburgh has the same climate of Brisbane (Australia) or even Hong Kong! So, these maps are not even a remote reliable source, and to find it out it's enough to check and compare just a pair of cities with completely different climates and average temperatures.

This map (http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/pdfs/kottek_et_al_2006_A1.pdf) is little more accurate and puts Milan as Cfb. Nevertheless, it's really useless to use these letters to define the climate of a city. Milan, Trento, Ljubljana, Sarajevo or Pittsburgh will never be subtropical cities. Dantadd 15:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, you are right about the last map being more accurate...and if you looked more carefully you might notice a darker green color in parts of the Po valley, the same color as in large parts of the eastern USA...Cfa climate! The difference from Cfb to Cfa is summer temperature...and the threshold is 22 degr Celsius in the warmest month. Milan has a warmest month of about 23C...and, if anything, temperatures in Europe is going up. You did not mention my two last sources, among them a scientific journal...Milan fullfills the criteria as Cfa climate.
 * You are mostly arguing against broad climate categories. They are always a bit arbitrary...within the Dfc climate, the coldest month might have an average of -4C, as in Tromsø, or -35C, as in parts of Siberia. Orcaborealis 18:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is not in the letters you choose, that are an arbitrary convention. You can stipulate the convenient letters for the climate of Milan and that's fine. The real problem is on the the adjective you want to use. "Subtropical" simply doesn't apply to Northern Italy, Slovenia or Croatia. The definition of "subtropical" is totally inadequate for that region of the World. Dantadd 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Depends on how you define "subtropical", but I tend to agree with you there, and I see you agree about Cfa for Milan, Slovenia and Croatia. There should have been a different name for the Cfa category, or split in two. This goes for many categories though. Orcaborealis 23:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, many maps use the C/D line at -3C (27F) rather than 0C (32F). CrazyC83 22:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

How about humid mesothermal? Oh, and we should use -3C as the c/d line because Koppen did. If the climate was called humid mesothermal, no one would complain about Milan and other places, such as New York City. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Press olive, win oil (talk • contribs) 23:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Charleston, WV & Roanoke, VA
Can anyone prove that Charleston and Roanoke is is in the Humid Continental climate zone? Those cities are in the mountains, but they are not high enough to make a huge difference. The coldest areas of West Virginia and Virginia are in the Allegheny Mountain range. Neither city is located in that area. The Punk 08:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the best examples are smaller towns (i.e. Blacksburg, VA and Beckley, WV), but they have characteristics of both in their general vicinities, depending on altitude and which side of the line you are on. The approximate Cfa/Dfa point at that latitude is 1,500 to 2,000 feet (increasing southward). The highest mountains in the Alleghenies (to the north) actually fall in the Dfb category, although that is more prominent in NE West Virginia and in Maryland. CrazyC83 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dallas
Dallas isn't in the core reach of the climate range as is listed in the passage. 74.128.200.135 01:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Dallas is on the western edge, but is definitely in the Cfa range. (Around Wichita Falls is where the subtropical grades to semi-arid steppe - Cfa to BSk) CrazyC83 05:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Map Problem
The original map was better and more accurate, until Strongerbad changed it by extending the red "truly subtropical" climate to the western Chesapeke shore, claiming that it is truly subtropical because the yearly average low exceeds 50°F.

Maybe for the Inner Harbor, a very small but well known part of Baltimore may have that due to its extreme closeness to water and intense heat island, but not because its a subtropical climate. A better example of the area's climate would be BWI which mind you is SOUTH of the city, [here http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/BWI:9] are the averages. Take the yearly average of the lows, and it is 44.25°! Well below the "truly subtropical" zone that the map shows. Not impressed? Let's go farther south and take [Annapolis http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/USMD0010], right on the shore of the bay. 45.1°, not "over 50". So I propose returning to the original map, and if you must be technical and picky, then shade one or two pixels of Baltimore red, and leave the rest as the original. Extending the red up to Baltimore is very inaccurate Faz90 02:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have updated the map to reflect the city of Baltimore (and not the area of annapolis, etc) as truly subtropical. The current map was also innacurate.  Nashville's low temperatures are as follows:   averaging an annual low of 49.8.  Baltimore's are as follows:  averaging 51.  Tell me again why the entire area around Nashville is solidly in the humid subtropical zone and Baltimore city is not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongbad1982 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Baltimore is more humid than BWI and has subtropical weather. You can not go by location (N,S) or temperature, but by actual heat + humidity...I do think the Köppen climate classification is more accurate than the Trewartha climate classification though because it separates the mountainous regions (warm) from the central and southern regions (subtropical)...but the regions near water should also have a different classification...I live there and experience the weather first hand (which by the way varies every year)...in many parts, we normally have humid summers and mild winters, but sometimes we have mild summers and frigid winters...anyway, where in the world does Maryland fit in with the Trewartha classifcation when each area's weather differs...someone help me out. Chic3z (talk) 18:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Edit
I restored a section removed by recent IP editors (one of whom vandalised an article on my watchlist) but I don't know anything about the topic, so if any of these removals was valid in the opinion of a regular editor, feel free to re-make it. Orderinchaos 22:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Why was South America taken off??
A large part of South America has what constitutes a humid subtropical climate. Southern Brazil, Northeastern Argentina and parts of Uruguay and Paraguay have regions that clearly fall into this category. It seems preposterous that the section would be taken out of the article, except of course if improvements were being made, which seems reasonable as the section was needing some improvement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.4.24.9 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Cincinnati and other cities
Why does there need to be citition for Cincinnati but not the other cities listed? It is clearly in a transition zone and a simple search and glance at a USDA zone map will evidence this, also, check out the range maps for indicator plants such as magnilia and so on. I'm removing the citation needed for Cincinnati because it is no more needed than any other city listed. here's one just from a brief search: http://www.answers.com/topic/subtropics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.173.226.236 (talk) 19:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky area. [] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.42.16 (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, Cincinnati, Ohio is as much within the "Humid-subtropical" climate zone as are several other cities that are listed without question as having humid subtropical climates (Louisville, New York City, Baltimore, DC, etc); you just need to look at a map and know where the cities are located. In-fact, according to both of the maps on this article (as well as other maps) show Cincy located within the H/S climate range (near the edge but none-the-less within the H/S range). If there is any city in the article that I would have to question or request a reference for it would be Pittsburgh Pa as it is not even near the H/S range much less within it. IMO Cincinnati is frequently given a bad rap (climatically) and has a milder climate than what most people probably think; the Southern Magnolias that are very common in Cincinnati as well as the presence of several other "indicator" plants such as mimmosa, crape myrtles, musa basjoo, bamboo, aucuba, (and even an occasional needle palm/Rhapidophyllum hystrix, etc testify to that fact. I really don't know what the cause is (possibly the Ohio River or the river hills protecting the area or the elevation?) but the Cincinnati area does have a noticably different climate (more mild) than the rest of Ohio. Also, it is not uncommon to see lizards such as the podarcis muralis wall lizard, fence lizards, and skinks during the Summer in Cincinnati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.43.115 (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * This issue has been discussed to death on this page, at Talk:Humid continental climate, and at Talk:Köppen climate classification. You can waste as much of our time as you like. Cincinnati averages 29.7 °F in January and 76.3 °F in July, which would make it fall in between solidly humid continental (Jan < &minus;3 ℃) and solidly humid subtropical (Jan > 0 ℃ and Jul > 22 ℃). Until this difference over winter temperatures between climatologists is resolved, this issue is not open to discussion. -- HXL's Roundtable  and  Record  21:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed the city lists due to lack of referencing. The gallery is also being deconstructed.  Both violate different wikipedia policies. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't mind the removal of the city lists (and you should do the same for other articles, too), but the assortment of charts from different cities is not strictly a gallery. -- HXL's Roundtable  and  Record  22:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the second article I have done this to, the first being oceanic climate. While galleries normally talk about picture collections (violating the idea of wikipedia not being art gallery), the numerous charts near the bottom of the article did constitute a collection of images, so it appeared like a gallery.  Most of the charts were maintained within the article, they were just placed off to the side of their respective sections. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * All right, I see your reasoning. However, I may have to change some charts for better representation of their respective region's variation on a climate and/or more well-known examples (e.g. we could really use Brisbane for Australia). -- HXL's Roundtable  and  Record  00:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as we don't go back to the gallery and long city lists, any changes should be fine. Remember to add inline references to any additions.  As you've seen, by request on my talk page, I've made similar changes to the other climate articles.  Thegreatdr (talk) 15:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Bergen County
Most of Bergen County, New Jersey is in the debatable zone (between Cfa and Dfa). http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/oakland.htm and http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ramsey.htm proves that these two towns are just inside this zone. However, idcide doesn't have a weather page for Mahwah, the only town in Bergen County north of Oakland and Ramsey. http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ft-lee.htm proves that Fort Lee is just outside the debated zone, in the humid subtropical climate's vicinity. Its funny how the -3C line lies right on or near the Bergen/Passiac/New York State border. http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ringwood.htm shows that Ringwood, which borders Mahwah to the northwest (well, really west and a bit north) has a coldest month average between 0C and -3C. Mahwah probably does as well. Press olive, win oil (talk) 19:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency with African map of climate zones
Being interested in the climate of Zambia I checked Wikipedia and stumbeled on this map in Wikipedia. It classifies the Zambian climate and most of the subropical African countries as Cwa, here it states that the Humid subtropical climate is limited to the South African east coast. Maybe somebody with expertise can look into it because one page should be corrected I think. I think the African map is correct myself, because subtropical would mean adjacent to tropical regions.(like Tropical>Cwa> Dessertlike>Mediterranean>Temperate) To me it makes no sense describing any climate in Europe as subtropicalViridiflavus (talk) 21:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong definition of Cfa and Cwa
You were using the Koppen f for tropical rainforests (ie. Af not Cf). You ignored the definition of Cwa altogether. You might want to change the citation of the Times Atlas of the World since it's not easily verified and there are many correct definitions of Cfa and Cwa on the web, including Wikipedia Köppen_climate_classification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.39.46 (talk) 04:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Why?
Why is there debate over NYC? I know there is but why? It's cfa by Koppen, so why would someone change the definition? Is Los Angeles on the Mediterranean? No, but it has a Mediterranean climate. Is Cape Cod on the west coast? No, but it has a Marine West Coast climate. Press olive, win oil (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Koppen definition is only one definition. If someone else defines subtropical as having a normal average temperature never falling below freezing, New York City would fall just short of being subtropical. Also until fairly recently, it used to snow somewhat regularly in New York City (though often in light amounts). As recently as 1996, New York City had something like 60+ inches of snow for the year, not exactly a subtropical trait. New York though has not seen any major snowstorms since 2006, though the February 2006 snowstorm dumped a record-breaking 26.9 inches on New York. Yet generally after any snow event, the snow usually melts very quickly. High temperatures in the 40's and 50's during the winter is becoming a more common occurrence in New York City. Still many residents would argue that they don't see anything "subtropical" about winters in New York City. Arguments can be made for both a humid subtropical classification and a humid continental classification for New York City. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 14:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand. I live in the suburbs of New York City and the coldest month average between 0 and -3C there. Snow does usually melt quickly. Oh, by the way, earlier this week there were 100+ highs in New York City. Press olive, win oil (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Koppen definition is more widely used than a definition used by "someone else." Press olive, win oil (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC).


 * Some American scientists basically agree with the Koppen Classification except they define subtropical as never having an average temperature fall below freezing. They probably can't fathom cities such as New York and Boston (which would also qualify as being subtropical under the Koppen definition) as being called "subtropical". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

True, but on the other hand, the Koppen system is most widely used and I can't understand that Minneapolis and Northern Arkansas (also debatable) are in the same zone. I don't truly understand how Northern Arkansas could be continental. I also don't truly understand why a coastal area would be called "continental." Oh, and some people- meteorologists- can't even fathom a minor thing like that? That's horrible and ridicilous if you ask me. Press olive, win oil (talk) 13:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and if you look at Koppen climate classification, you'll see a map that correctly pictures, according to Koppen, New York City and Boston in the cfa zone. Press olive, win oil (talk) 13:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it's a matter of personal perspective. Some just can't picture anything subtropical about the winters in these debatable regions. Me personally, I think New York City could qualify as subtropical because at least one species of palm can grow naturally in the city Hardy_Palm_Trees. I don't think any palm species can grow in Boston though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, they can grow in Toronto, which has colder winters than Boston, as proven here: []. Also, winters on the east coast tend to be moist, rarely cold and dry, right? Anyway, Toronto has a humid continental climate, so even it could then be considered "subtropical?" I don't think so because Koppen's rules naturally should have some exceptions. I think New York and Boston should definitely be considered subtropical. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point, though I have just noticed that the Toronto experiment only lasted from about 1995-97, as far as I can tell. Maybe there would be less controversy if people called the zone mesothermal instead of "subtropical".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, [] says that the needle palm does grow in New York City but not Boston, matching up with what you said. Press olive, win oil (talk) 01:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and signs posts by using four of these:~ Press olive, win oil (talk) 01:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm also taking a wikibreak. Check my talk page for details. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm off my break. Press olive, win oil (talk) 17:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think the talk page for either humid subtropical (this page) or humid continental climates contains something saying the C/D line matches up with where three crops can be grown in two years. Do you have any idea if this is true? Press olive, win oil (talk) 12:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It's on the Humid Continental talk page. Press olive, win oil (talk) 12:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sinic climate
I read in the article: "This climate type covers a broad category of climates, and the term "subtropical" may be a misnomer for the winter climate in the cooler areas within this category". Very true. I would simply call this climate "sinic" as Köppen did in his works (check this page).--Carnby (talk) 19:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the trouble is "Sinic climate" doesn't appear to actually be used in the English language but is a translation from the German. If one searches for "Sinic climate" on Google, the only results are this page and one from a German university. "Humid subtropical" appears to be the accepted term, even if it may be misleading for the cooler climates in this category. Personally I would not describe the cooler climates as in this category as "sub-tropical". The likes of Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Buenos Aires, Durban and Brisbane are what would usually be termed sub-tropical while New York certainly wouldn't. For example the coconut palm, which is a common plant used as an indicator due to its cold sensitivity and requirement for year-round warmth grows near its poleward limits at Santa Cruz de Tenerife and Durban (I'm not sure of Brisbane or Buenos Aires).
 * Nevertheless, I think the current wording is the best we can hope for for this tricky subject as "Sinic climate" on it's own is unsutable due to being little used, while "sub-tropical" without qualification may be misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Booshank (talk • contribs) 18:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Use the -3C(Persistent Snow Line)
When it comes to the coldest month, I don't understand why people use the freezing line(0C) to determine between humid subtropical & humid continental when it snows annually in the northern reaches of the humid subtropical zone in the winter. Whether some areas are not what some people would consider "subtropical"(SUBtropical being the key word here) is irrelevant. The persistent snowline(-3C) should be used to determine a humid continental climate where it's cold enough for snow to fall persistently as opposed to the northern reaches of the humid subtropical climate where it gets cold enough to snow, albeit less and generally inconsistently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.19.51 (talk) 14:42, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The inner New York metropolitan area has a cfa climate according to Koppen's classification. Look at the "Why?" section. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC) Bergen and Passaic counties have a cfa climate, while sussex county is dfb. The dfa/cfb (don't know which) range is negligible. Northern Westchester is dfa, while southern Westchester is cfa. Northern Rockland is dfa, while southern Rockland is cfa. Press olive, win oil (talk) 13:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Climate graphs removed - why?
This article used to have climate graphs of places with humid subtropical climates (one each from each of the main parts of the world they are found in) but someone has replaced them with a list of places situated in this climate zone. Why is this? In my opinion it is far less informative now, as the graphs provided an easily interpreted summary of the main features of this climate, while the wiki links to a bunch of cities are going to tell us more about those cities' histories, landmarks, economies etc, and not necessarily much about the climate. Booshank (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I've re-added the climate charts as I feel they are useful. Most other climate zone articles have them and no-one explained why they were removed.Booshank (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

North India
As per this section of an FA, and the article on Koppen classification, the Gangetic plains and North East India has a sub-tropical climate. Can the map be corrected to show this ? Thanks. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Error in the map
There's a big part of Buenos Aires province whose summers are not warm enough to be considered part of the Humid Subtropical Climate. (They have an Oceanic Temperate climate) I think it should be removed from the map immediately. The same things happens in some parts of Southern Brazil (but in this case, it's less notorious) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.139.179.175 (talk) 01:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

European cities with Humid subtropical climate
Skopje in Macedonia has a climate that is within the definition (even if the city article does not say this). The warmest months - July and August - has a 24-hr average of 23 Centigrades and the coldes month has a 24-hr average of 0.2 centigrades (thus well above -3). There is no dry season (as this article states: at least one third as much precipitation in dryest summer month as in the wettest winter month). See this link for precititation and this link for monthly temperatures. Skopje thus can be added to the list. The other European cities, such as Varna, also fulfills the definition for being humid subtropical. Orcaborealis (talk) 13:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You think Skopje is cfa subtropical climate. You clown are false. Manhattan Penthouse (talk) 21:11, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Black Sea coastal areas/South-Western Romania
Even though temperature-wise places like Constanta, Romania; Varna, Bulgaria and Sevastopol, Ukraine do meet the requirements for a "humid subtropical climate", when it comes to precipitation, they actually fit into a semi-arid (steppe) climate. I have heard that in Romania, the entire Black Sea Coast, which averages about 400mm or less annual precipitation, has been included into the BS classification, perhaps BSk climate because of its location in the temperate zone and relatively cold winters (blizzards are common even though the coldest month is just above 0C-32F). I am not exactly sure about areas outside Romania. Also, the Sochi, Russia, area receives a lot of precipitation, so it's not the subject of this discussion. However, there is a region in South-Western Romania, in Banat, that does seem to fit into the "humid subtropical climate"; in fact, I have seen it represented as such on some climate maps. Here's a link for some reference, though I can't find any official data regarding temperatures: http://www.ici.ro/romania/en/turism/b_herculane.html --IoanC (talk) 10:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Serbia
Belgrade and Serbia have this climate yet they are considered oceanic!?

Belgrade has july and august average above 22, 22,3. 21,8 is old average and soon will be out of use, not to mention that this is the average of one of the coldest periods in twentieth century 1961-1990,  1971-2000 averages  have shown that the average july temperature is 22,3,  while 1981-2010 averages will show even wqrmer averages. January average is 0,5.

Precipitation is typical for Humid subtropical climates. Wettest months are may and june.

Now the area I am talking about (Belgrade and Serbia) belong in Humid subtropical climate on every Koppen map including University of Melbourne map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.179.82 (talk) 14:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The coldest month in the humid continental climate should have an average between 3 and 18, and Belgrade's coldest month lies below 3. So it seems to me the current classification is not entirely correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.231.184.32 (talk) 18:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Droughts
Can Some-one tell me how frequently droughts occur per year in a Humid-tropical place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.21.59.252 (talk) 04:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Humid subtropical climate: where are the correct sources?
'''In the Koppen-Geiger climate classification there is no definition like this: 'Cfa' climatic type = humid subtropical. But exist this definition: Cfa = humid temperate.''' And the type 'Cfa' is similar to 'Cfb' and is different than 'Cwa'. So this article is totally wrong because, about 'Cfa' climatic type 'humid subtropical', it confuse the Koppen-Geiger climate classification with the Koppen-Trewartha classification which has specific parameters, different than Koppen-Geiger, to classify Cfa. http://www.int-res.com/articles/cr_oa/c059p001.pdf

Someone should put also only one source that claims the opposite, If exist. Otherwise the article must be modified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.51.230 (talk) 19:54, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

There aren't any sources in the article but many errors and much confusion
This article is totally confused because of errors of interpretation and approximate informations. Moreover all sources currently reported in this article (the few still active) don't wrote anything on humid subtropical climate. In fact:
 * 1) In climatology there is no single definition of humid subtropical climate
 * 2) In his climate classification Koppen has never called the Cfa subtype 'humid subtropical' but 'humid temperate with hot summer' (and Cwa: humid temperate with dry winter).  http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/present.htm
 * 3) The terms Temperate and Subtropical are not synonyms.
 * 4) The eminent American climatologists who introduced the humid subtropical subtype are J.F.Griffiths and Trewartha. They are based on specific criteria to define this subtype in relation to the temperature of the coldest month and in relation to the latitudes (between 20°and 35/40°) that exclude much part of the climate regions classified as cfa in the Koppen classification (both in the original version that in the updated versions) from their new subtypes called humid subtropical. Consequently they have moved a part of regions called Cfa in other groups of their classification modified. http://www.int-res.com/articles/cr_oa/c059p001.pdf
 * 5) From other minimally reliable sources that wrote on humid subtropical climate: http://www.britannica.com/science/humid-subtropical-climate and http://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/climate_systems/humid_subtropical.html it reads that some other American scientists, far less illustrious (who?), have arbitrarily assigned the label humid subtropical to the areas of the world with climate subtypes Cfa and Cwa of the Koppen classification.
 * 6) These two sources are in contradiction. The source: http://www.britannica.com/science/humid-subtropical-climate establishes minimum winter temperatures not lower than 5° C (similar to Griffiths and Trewartha) so this excludes much of the CFA subtype. And the source: http://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/climate_systems/humid_subtropical.html refers only to the Koppen criteria. However it has attributed the label humid subtropical to a precise list of regions with Cfa climate but not to all regions that have climate Cfa according to the classification of Koppen.
 * 7) Both these sources clearly define the latitudes between 20° and 35/40° and what are the regions with this climate and neither of these sources cites European regions.

Therefore, the article must strictly follow what the reliable sources say, and it must be modified:
 * 1) must be specified that the so-called 'humid subtropical climate' is an American variant of the Koppen climate classification which refers only to a part of the regions that Koppen includes in the subtype Cfa (and Cwa), not to the entire subtype Cfa.
 * 2) the section ‘Europe’ in the article must be deleted and moved under another article: “Humid Temperate with hot summer” climate (repeat: temperate it is not synonym of subtropical) because all the sources precisely define the areas of the world identified by these American scientists and Europe is not mentioned.
 * 3) must show another map because the actual map creates confusion because is wrong for the reasons mentioned above  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swan 73 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Pronounced Winters in a Sub-Tropical Climate?
How can regions with well pronounced winters fall under the category of being a sub-tropical climate? Although the preset definition does hold in regions of the mid-south (United States), the term almost angers me by the fact that there are no official transition zones. I simply state this without experience in this subject though I believe my point is relevant.

If a Sub-Tropical climate receives at least 10 inches or 25 centimeters of snow a year and annually experiences temperatures below -15 Celsius or 5 Fahrenheit how can it be given the name of being sub-tropical? Is the freezing point as an average temperature during one month of the year really a good demarcation line for a term referring to areas that are almost tropical?

There is a clear difference in climate compared to the warmer 2/3rds of the defined region. This is most obvious in the flora. Most of the forests in the upper 1/3rd of the sub-tropical zone are vast hardwood deciduous forests where southern pines are not dominant. It would seem that a better approach would be to include a Mesothermal Climate. I find a better classification is in the Trewartha climate classification. Is this not a reasonable point? --Protector of Truth 56 (talk) 15:14, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The big difference between a humid subtropical climate and a humid continental climate is that the former tends to not keep a snow cover throughout its winter months...though it can snow there...while the latter can conceivably experience snow cover throughout the entire duration of its winters. It's actually a pretty significant difference because persistent snow covers actually lower apparent temperatures and effectively makes it impossible for any palms to grow there without assistance...though colder temperatures also plays a key role. Even in the outermost reaches of a humid subtropical climate, a few species of palms can be grown unaided, though they tend to be much shorter in height. People are very hung up on the term "humid subtropical" climate because they envision places like New Orleans and Brisbane as your prototypical humid subtropical climate when in reality it's places like Shanghai and Charlotte that's your "average" humid subtropical climate. Additionally, Miami features a tropical climate, but to a number of people living in tropical climates, Miami's "winters" are too cool to be tropical. Does it mean it should be shoved under humid subtropical? The 18 degree C (64 F) average cutoff is a good dividing line because it's the threshold where many tropical plants can thrive. I hope this helps. G. Capo (talk) 04:16, 23 December 2016 (UTC)