Talk:Hunter × Hunter/Archive 2

International Releases
I added "International Releases" to the HxH article, considering that HxH was aired in mostly all Latin America with success. -- Hayama Akito 04:01, 22 November 2006

Scanlation vs. Viz (translations)
After doing some digging around in wikipedia's policies regarding naming conventions, i have decided it would be best to change all the names in hxh, including the nen terminology, back to the translations used in the scanlated version.

The translations by Viz and the translations by scanlators are equally 'english', just that one is considered 'official'. Naming conventions have an emphasis on the use of names which are most commonly recognised/accepted amoungst english speakers for the english wikipedia. In this case, the scanlated translations are by far the most commonly used. "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." from WP:NC and WP:NC(CN).

The wikiproject for anime and manga also emphasises on the use of the most common name "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form" and "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as. If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name" (Togashi's official romaji names is a brilliant example of 'egregiously bad' names)

The scanlation names are both the most popular and generally used translations. Google tests easily proves this. HxH's sections on fanfiction.net, nexgear forums, and other internet fan communities/sites also show almost no use of ViZ's translations.

For reference, below is a full list of name changes. If you are a ViZ translator, keeping this list updated would be nice ^_^

Scanlations <-> Viz Biscuit Kruger <-> ??? (not sure what ViZ uses. But "Biscuit Kruger" is more common than the other versions with "Bisuke" or "Krueger") Black Voice <-> Black Voice: Mobile Fate Detector Celestial Tower <-> Heavens Arena Bonorenofu <-> Bonolenov Deme-chan <-> Blinky Deceitful Texture <-> Texture Surprise Double Machine Gun <-> Dual Machine Gun Dragon Head <-> Dragon Head: Long-Tou Xi-Hua / Dragon Lance Emission <-> Emitter Fun Fun Cloth <-> Magic Fun Cloth Gallery Fake <-> Gallery Fake: Divine Left Hand, Demonic Right Hand Genei Ryodan (Phantom Brigade) <-> Phantom Troupe Gereda <-> Geretta Injyuu <-> Shadow Beasts Jeni <-> Jenny Jonas (Johnnies) <-> Johness Kaito <-> Kite Karuto <-> Kalluto Kukuruu Mountain <-> Kukuroo Mountain Kuroro (Quoll) Lucifer <-> Chrollo Lucilfer Korutopi <-> Kortopi Kuruta <-> Kurta Manipulation <-> Manipulator Materialization <-> Conjurer Nostrad <-> Nostrade Phinx <-> Phinks Pokkuru <-> Pokkle Reinforcement <-> Enhancer Rippo <-> Lippo Ryuuseigai <-> Meteor City Satotsu <-> Satotz Senritsu <-> Melody Skill Hunter <-> Skill Hunter: Bandit's Secret Scuwala <-> Squala Specialization <-> Specialist Suoer <-> Sommy Tompa <-> Tonpa Transformation <-> Transmuter Veze <-> Baise York Shin City<-> Yorknew City Zaoldyeck (Zoldick) <-> Zoldyck -- `/aksha 09:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
''I left notes in all my edits with name changes to refer to notes left on the talk page here. It would be poliet if you could actually read the notes left on the talk pages (as indicated on all my edits) instead of just ignoring the explainations? -- `/aksha 04:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)''

The thing is--I have read them. The problem with that is that it doesn't make any sense to put them there. For example, the most ridiculous example is the change of Kalluto to Karuto. We all know that every single child in the Zoldyck family has two "L"s within their name when romanizing it. Keeping Kalluto as "Karuto" is the same thing as if we changed Killua to "Kirua" or Illumi to "Irumi". The "Zoldyck" to "Zoaldyeck" arguement still is inaccurate. Do a search on google for them. Zoldyck clearly beats Zoaldyeck by a few hundred votes. Zaoldyeck seems to be the most popular out of all three (And the one that's the most incorrect), yet apparently you've decided to go with "Zoaldyeck", the least popular of the three names. Why is this? User talk:Mr. Toto 01:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to break your last edit up. I hope you don't mind, this is just for ease of replying. Since you've made a huge edit and by the looks of it, i'm going to make a huge reply. I've copy and pasted your signiture so it won't be too confusing to read.


 * "The problem with that is that it doesn't make any sense to put them there" are you meaning the fact that i edited my explainations onto the hxh talk page? That's what's generally done when one discussion topic covers many articles. It just seemed redundant to post an edit explaination onto every hxh article i edited when it was the same article.


 * Kalluto/Karuto because that's whats used in the scanlations, and because Karuto is more popular. From my understanding, r and l (as well as double r and double l) are often inter-changable since japanese doesn't have both r and l. So Kalluto/Kaluto/Karuto/Karruto are technically equally correct romanizations. So both are valid translations, except that one is more popular than the other. Using the "ll" rule as evidence isn't really counted, since Wikipedia is pretty strict about no original research and no speculation. I must admit it was a mistake for me to add the ll rule into an article in the first place. -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. First off, not all scanlations follow "Karuto", as that is clearly the incorrect name. It does not matter if this is the most common one--it's not what Togashi intended the character's name to be. Karuto just does not fit the naming structure, and if you're going to write his name as "Karuto", then why are you not also writing "Alluka" name as "Aruka", when that name hasn't even been confirmed yet? It is just obvious that the character's name is supposed to be "Kalluto", and the scanlations in this case are incorrect. It doesn't matter if it's the romaji, that's not how the name is intended to be spelled. Sure, it's a way to translate it. However, if you're going to keep the double L in all of the other Zoldyck children's names, then it makes absolutely no sense to keep it as Karuto, even if it is the most popular name to people who read the scanlations. Most people know that it's incorrect, so this needs to be changed.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 20:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For a start, there has only been one english scanlation group scanlating hxh since Karuto appeared as a character in the manga (his appearance in York Shin arc doesn't count because his name isn't mentioned), so i have no idea what you mean by "not all scanlations". Secondly, there is no evidence whether Togashi intended the names to be Karuto or Kalluto, Togashi has never written out his name in english letters (as oppossed to say, "Ging" or "Phalcnothdk" for pakunoda). The naming structure is fan-made, although it does work, It's both speculation and original research, both of which being things which should have no place on wikipedia. So basically, there is no evidence that Karuto is "incorrect". It's not wrong - i've already said this, Togashi never specified Karuto or Kalluto. The naming system is speculation, and it works just as well if you replaced the "ll" with "rr" or "r" or just "l", because they are equivalent in japanese. It is a fact that Karuto is prefered over Kalluto, whilst all the other Zoaldyeck children have the double 'l'. It is strange, and i have no idea why it ended up that way, but it doesn't make it 'incorrect'. Otherwise, you may as well argue that "Kurapika" should be "Kulapika" or "Curapika" or "Culapika", all of which are also equilvalent. It just happened in this case, ViZ also adopted a 'r' as opposed to a 'l'. -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I was relatively sure that I saw one that used "Kalluto", so I'll double check a little later. And although it's never been written out in English, the name "Kalluto" just makes more sense than "Karuto." Even though "Karuto" is the romaji, there's more evidence pointing towards the name being "Kalluto" instead. Wasn't Illumi's name written as "Irumi" in early translations as well? Personally, I feel that the names should be consistent with each other. This isn't solely because Viz uses "Kalluto", but because it makes complete sense. If in Japan, the reader is able to interpret the name is supposed to be Kalluto (Like they are with Killua, Illumi, Milluki, et cetera.) Also, it isn't a fact that "Karuto" is preferred. Unless you do a study of every reader of HXH in the entire world, it's impossible to prove. I was introduced to Hunter x Hunter through Viz's translations first, and I am sure that many others were as well.


 * With the "Kurapika" part, that was written out in English in the twelfth volume as "Curarpikt". However, in the official handbook (and correct me if I'm incorrect, as I am unsure about this myself), isn't the name written out as "Kurapika"?
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As for Killua's surname, i made the page into Zoaldyeck because last time i checked, that was what was being used in scanlations. I have to be honest here and say i didn't even realize there was a difference, i though people just used 'ao' and 'oa' interchangably. But alas, google test proves me wrong by a mile by showing 'ao' is more used. So i'll go change it if you don't beat me to it. -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that both "Zoaldyeck" and "Zaoldyeck" are incorrect translations of Killua's name. Let me show you personally. His name is spelled "ゾルディック" in Japanese. This is literally read as "Zorudikku" and its closest translations are "Zoldick", "Zordick" or "Zoldyck". These are the only three readings that it can be. Now, "Zoaldyeck" would be written like "ゾアルドイェック" in Japanese. "Zoarudoiekku". See the difference? "Zaoldyeck" diverts the furthest from all of them, since the first syllable is completely different from the Japanese one. "ザオルドイェック" is how you would spell it in Japanese. This one does not remotely even resemble the original term. Therefore, Zoldyck, Zoldick, or Zordick are the closest translations to the actual word. Anything else is wrong.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 20:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * They are not translations. Zoldyeck, Zoldick, Zordick, Zoaldyeck, Zoldyck...whatever one you want...none of the are translations. They are direct english versions of the name based on the sound. None of them, including ViZ's one, are meant to be the actual romanization. Otherwise we'd be using Zoludikku/Zorudikku. None of them are translated either. They're just what "Zorudikku" would sound like to an english speaking person when it's said in japanese. Which makes versions like Zaoldyeck and Zoldyck and Zoldyeck equilvalent - because they sound the same. Technically, the versions with just 'd' instead of 'dy' are closer to the japanese prounciation. But something like Zoldick was neither adopted by scanlations or by viz (and frankly speaking i'm not surprised.) -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, they are translations. When you translate from Katakana, generally you don't write it into the romaji that make it up. That's mostly done for only Hiragana and Kanji. Take, for instance, if we tried to translate the name "Jeffrey" into Japanese. It's possible, and done frequently. It would be written as "ジェッフリー" and pronounced as "Jeffurii". This is the only way to write it in Japanese--anything else is incorrect. That doesn't make the name any different though--that's just how it's written and pronounced. If you look at most other anime with foreign names, you'll see this constantly. Zoaldyeck, Zaoldyeck, and Zoldyeck are all pronounced differently from the original pronunciation. I've written the differences above from all of them. It's the extra "a" in it that would make a difference.


 * Here's a better way to put it. Let's say "Zoaldyeck" and "Zoldyck" are English names and don't belong to Killua. There are two possible ways to write "Zoaldyeck" into katakana, and that's "ゾアルドイェック" or "ゾールドイェック". That's it. However, there's only one way to write "Zoldyck" in Japanese, and that's "ゾルディック". "Zaoldyeck" is not even a translation or relatively close to the original romaji. That's the point I'm trying to make. In the English language, there's pretty much no instances in which an "A" comes before an "O" in a word and you don't pronounce the "A". It doesn't work that way.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Another problem is with the inconsistency of the romanizations. Some terms are left all in Japanese, despite being in Katakana. An example of this is "York Shin City". It makes no sense to keep the "York" in English, but not translate the "Shin" as "New", when it is quite obvious the place is supposed to be a pun off of New York City. Not only that, but it makes even less sense to keep the "York" when it's written as "Youku" in Katakana. That's translating just half the word, and it makes no sense.

"Kite" to "Kaito" doesn't make sense either. Again, this is supposed to be an obvious translation. The name is even written in Katakana, so even Japanese readers realize that this is supposed to be "Kite". The fact of the matter is that the site is just using names that are translated based on pure speculation of what the name should be. It was just a shot in the dark in what the translated name should be to these translators, and I'm really sure lots aren't correct.

"Senritsu" is the Japanese word for Melody. It's not her real name--it's an alias.

"Deme" means protruding eyes. Protruding-Eyes-chan doesn't make a very good name. "Blinky" gets the meaning across--drawing attention to the eyes.

"Kuroro" It is very clear that Togashi wanted him to have a foreign name, as he's had three romanizations that all don't follow "Kuroro". "Chrollo" and "Quoll" are the ones that make the most sense, and "Chrollo" seems to be the one that's used more than "Quoll". Especially since "Chrollo" was used in a handbook released pretty far into the future instead of the 12th volume like Quoll was.

"Genei Ryodan" is literally "Phantom Brigade" in Japanese, and "Troupe" was chosen because a "Brigade" is a large body of troops. There are only eleven members in the Phantom Troupe, so they changed it to something with a similar meaning. User talk:Mr. Toto 01:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * These are all good points, but there is no such thing as "correct" when translating names from one language to another. With Senritsu for example, exactly where in the manga does it say it's not her real name? And exactly where does Togashi make it clear Kuroro is meant to have a foreign name? ViZ choose to use the Chrollo because that's how "Kuroro" is sounds in english. -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is a correct way to translate names from one language to another. It's all in the spelling and pronounciation. The name "Kite" is the easiest example of this. His name is written as "カイト" in Japanese. In Japan, this is the word they use for "Kite" and it's pronounced as "Kaito", exactly as it's written. Therefore, the name is Kite.


 * "Senritsu" has some fairly good evidence that points towards it being an alias, but again, it's never explicitly stated. First off, her name is written in Kanji, not katakana. The kanji it's written in literally means "Melody". If it were in katakana, then there would be a really high chance that her name would be Senritsu and that would be it. But I think that it's supposed read as the actual musical term "Melody", since she's a music hunter.


 * If we're not going to translate Genei Ryodan to "Phantom Troupe" or "Phantom Brigade", then why bother translating the names of other organizations? Why not write the Chimera Ants as "Kimera Anto" or the Heaven's Arena to "Tenkou Tougijou" or "天空闘技場" (These kanji combined literally mean Arena in the Sky, or Heaven's Arena--There's no mention of anything that translates to Celestial or Tower), as it's written in the manga? You need to face that scanlations are not always correct because of the limited time frame that they get to translate. Also, they take creative liberties as well with the dialogue and translations to what they believe the name should be. I'll give you "Yorkshin City", because it's written all in katakana (Although clearly it's supposed to be referencing New York City), but these other examples work.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 22:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a difference between translating a name and changing a name because of the way it sounds. Genei Ryodan to Phantom Troupe or Phantom Brigade is a translation, because it takes the meanings of the word "Genei Ryodan", and replaces it with english words of similar meaning. There is no sound similarity between "Genei Ryodan" and "Phantom Troupe/Brigade".
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The words don't sound the same, no. But neither do Celestial Tower and Tenkou Tougijou. "Phantom Troupe" is a really literal translation of the word Genei Ryodan in Japanese. Leaving it untranslated is like keeping every location and organization untranslated. They don't sound the same, but neither do most Japanese words to English ones. This isn't changing the word because of the way it sounds--this is translating a word in kanji to something in english. The only way that "Genei Ryodan" would be an acceptable translation is if it were written in Katakana as "ゲネイリョダン." However, it's written as "幻影旅団". This means we're supposed to translate the meaning of the word to English. When Japanese readers read "幻影旅団", they're thinking of the words "Phantom" and "Brigade/Troupe", but in Japanese.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Similarly, "Senritsu" is a translation. Regardless of how her name is written, the change from Senritsu to Melody is a translation because it's based on meaning. Even if senritsu is written in a way where it was meant to mean melody, Senritsu is still her name in japanese, and Melody being the english translation, the two are not the same. When you are looking at words like Youku --> York or Kaito --> Kite, there's no 'right' way. Using Youku/Kaito is more accurate, using York/Kite makes it easier for the english speaker. Neither of those options are right.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me explain it to you. You know how the nen types are written into kanji in the Japanese manga? And how scanlations tranlated those to "reinforcement" and such? Doing this to the name "Senritsu" is doing the exact same thing. It's just an inconsistency in translation--some terms are translated in the scanlations and others aren't, for an unknown reason. When Japanese readers are thinking of the name "Senritsu", they know it's associated with the word "Melody" because it's not a real name. The meaning is completely lost if you keep it as Senritsu, because the entire intention was for the name to mean "melody" instead of "Senritsu".


 * The Youku/Kaito thing is wrong as well. Again, when Japanese people read those two names, they think of them as "Kite" and "York". "Youku" and "Kaito" are just ways to write them into Katakana in Japan because there's no equivalent word for those terms there. "Youku" and "Kaito" are romaji--that doesn't mean they're more accurate. That just means that's how they're written into Katakana and how you would say them in Japanese. The meaning is still supposed to be "Kite" and "York"--just the pronunciation is different.


 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "If we're not going to translate Genei Ryodan to "Phantom Troupe" or "Phantom Brigade", then why bother translating the names of other organizations?" because Genei Ryodan is commonly used, where as Tenkou Tougijou is not. Kimera Anto to Chimera ants is a different story because it's not a translation, just a change based on the sound of the word. I suppose by the same line or argument, i could say if ViZ bothered to make names like Genei Ryodan into english for the sake of english readers, why didn't they write New York City instead of York New City? York New City was clearly a pun on New York City? -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Even if Genei Ryodan is more commonly used, I still can't see why some terms are translated and others are not. Not translating "Genei Ryodan" is like not translating "Hantaa Shiken" to "Hunter Examination", not translating "Kyouka" into "Reinforcement", and "Houshitsu" into "Emission." These are all written in Kanji (With the exceptance of "Hunter"), and all of them are translated. Even Heaven's Arena is written in Kanji and translated in the scanlations (As Celestial Tower--but a faithful translation would be Celestial Arena or Heaven's Arena. If it were just "Tenkou Tou", then it would be "Celestial Tower.")


 * With Yorknew City, remember that the HXH world isn't the one we live in right now. However, the countries and cities that are in it are based off of real ones. Yorknew City is a pun off of New York--it's not "New York City" itself. Just another flipped around city with a relatively similar name so the reader knows what the setting is like there. This pun is existant in Japanese and actually is the same thing.


 * One more thing. In the Japanese HXH wiki, they list the arc names in a different way than we do here. For example, the Genei Ryodan Arc is called the "Yorknew City (The Spider Arc)" there. The Chimera Ant arc is split into two parts called "Chimera Ant (NGL Arc)" and "Chimera Ant (The Birth of the King Arc)." Should we change those to reflect that?


 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * All we're doing here is debating back and forth about why individual names are the way they are in either scanlation or ViZ. Nothing you have said proves ViZ's translations are more correct (or more accurate if you consider Togashi to be the ultimate authority). And i'm not even going to bother trying to say the scanlation translations are more correct - all i'm saying is that they're not wrong, but they are the generally used version. -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, Togashi's wanting Kuroro's name to be romanized in a cool way is simply my observation and speculation. My reasoning is that every time "Kuroro" has been romanized, it is never in the romaji. I know that Togashi must be able to at least put words into romaji. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to use a keyboard on a computer. Clearly, if he wanted his name to be "Kuroro", he would have put "Kuroro". Not "Quoll" or "Chrollo". These are both official romanizations, and although they differ, I think Chrollo was probably the one he intended to use. User talk:Mr. Toto 20:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You think Chrollo was the one he intended? Why? He never said it was suprior to Quoll, or that Kuroro was wrong. Similarly, i really do think "Phalcnothdk" was what he intended for Pakunoda, but i don't use Phalcnothdk, neither does the scanlation group who scanlates it, neither does ViZ. The names spelt out in Togashi's 'official' ways are sometimes used (like Ging over Gin, Jing, Jin...etc), sometimes not (like Phalcnothdk), and sometimes debatable. As for Quoll and Chrollo, if Togashi was contradicting himself (as in providing two different spellings), then i really can't see how anyone can argue which one was Togashi's prefered one unless the guy comes out and makes a statement himself.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I assumed he wanted "Chrollo" because the official guidebook was released after the 12th volume, which would give him time to improve his English. "Phalcnothdk" was a result of poor English. Maybe if he had a better translator, we would have some concrete evidence.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's got nothing to do with Togashi's romanizations. Togashi's romanziations are used neither by fans or by ViZ. Otherwise, Viz would be having Hyskoa for Hisoka, Curarpiky for Kurapika, Matiy for Machi, and something along the lines of Phalcnothdk for pakunoda. -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Togashi's romanizations are incorrect because he's not very good at using the English language (Or at least was not when he wrote them--that was quite a while ago, so he may have improved). He tried to create romanizations that sounded English, but failed because he did not have a good translator with him. Perhaps none at all.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 20:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ""Troupe" was chosen because a "Brigade" is a large body of troops" the key word there being chosen. ViZ's names are not the "correct" names, they're the names ViZ's staff CHOOSE. And since ViZ licensed the manga, it makes their selections official, but it doesn't make it any more correct. -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Checking various sources, the word "Troupe" in English works as a synonym for "Brigade". Technically, these work the same way. If you're going to deny this, then how can you accept "Celestial Tower" for something that doesn't read remotely the same way? "Troupe" is closer to "Brigade" than "Celestial Tower" is close to "Heaven's Arena". Viz just chose a synonym that works in the exact same way. If you need any more evidence, then here's some solid proof for you: The Japanese word for "Troupe" is the "Dan" in "Ryodan". The "Ryo" in "Ryodan" means travel or journeying. Therefore, Ryodan in Japanese can be translated not only as "Brigade", but "Traveling Troupe" as well. They're synonyms in Japanese too--Viz just decided to go with "Troupe" instead of "Brigade".
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 20:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * i have no idea what you're trying to argue. I never said anything about whether Brigade or Troupe was closer to the japanese. You where the one who made that comment. All i said was that ViZ was also making choices. Their translations are not that way because it's they are correct. It wasn't so black and white. If they encountered two options which were equally valid, they would have had to just choose one option. And the choice could have been arbitrary, or simply based on which one 'sounds nicer'.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * By stating the "Troupe" definition and such, I suppose it was concrete evidence that "Troupe" is a faithful translation to "Ryodan". The kanji that "Genei Ryodan" is made up of literally means "Phantom Traveling Troupe", so we could go with that if ever translated on the site.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you find the popular translations a problem because they're inconsistent - ViZ's ones are not the pinacle of consistency either. ViZ translates some names when they can match up english meanings to it (regardless of whether Togashi intended them to or not. A name could have a english translation simply because many japanese names do have meanings.) ViZ changes some names depending on sound (i.e. Kaito --> Kite), and some on meaning. Some like Chrollo may be because they thought that's what Togashi wanted, but quite clearly, what Togashi wanted is not a priority because we don't have names like Hyskoa or Matiy.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Saying that Togashi's romanizations aren't a priority is a groundless statement that had to have been said without thinking it through fully. Here's a simple way of looking at it--If a name in Hunter X Hunter is written in Kanji and isn't an actual name in Japan, the reader is obviously supposed to know the meaning of the name to associate it with the character. Senritsu, or Melody, is pretty big proof of this. If a character's name is in katakana, but also the word has meaning in Katakana in Japan, their name is supposed to be the direct foreign word that it comes from. I suppose this is debatable, but it's true for nearly every character. And other names are just romanized by Togashi himself. Unlike what you say, it is a priortiy. Otherwise, people would probably translate Gon's name as "Gon Freaks" instead of "Freecss". "Ging" would be "Jin" to everyone. "Killua" would be "Kirua". "Leorio" would be "Reorio". Do you see where I'm going with this? Togashi's romanizations generally are important, and just because he screwed up with a few does not mean that all of them should be taken with a grain of salt.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 21:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of them are screwed up. The ones which are not have mostly be adopted, by both scanlations and ViZ. The ones that are screwed up obviously aren't a priority - that much is obvious, since they're not used by fans, or by scanlators, or by ViZ. In other words, they're not used by anyone. :::-- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * All you've done is listed off reasons for ViZ's name changes, and i'm sure ViZ does have reasons. But i can as easily list off reasons for the scanlator's changes. York Shin, for example, wasn't a "translation" at all. Youku is simply the japanese word to pronounce "York". "Youku" itself is not a japanese word, therefore it's clear the word was made up. So it was changed to York because the word was mimiking the english word york. Where as Shin is a real japanese word, changing it to "new" would be translating the name based on meaning, which is not generally done in scanlations.


 * There is no evidence ViZ's ones are better or sticking to Togashi more.
 * -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, the word "Youku" was not made up. That's actually how the Japanese write "York" in the word "New York". The pronounciation is the exact same as the way it's written. It's not as if you write "NEW YORK" in English if you're talking about it in Japanese--that would be silly. It's written as "ニューヨーク" and pronounced "Nyuu Youku". The word "Shin" means "New", but had he written that in kanji or hiragana, it would be in different context. "ヨークしん" means "The New York", talking as if it were literally something new, like a new bicycle. "ヨークシン" means "Yorknew", and not literally as if it were something new. It's read as "Youkushin" in Japanese, but it's supposed to be understood as "Yorknew" in Japan as well. This is a very obvious reference, and I'm sure that at least 90% of all readers of Hunter X Hunter in Japan realized this at the first reference.


 * Oh, and if you're going to try and say that the Viz Translations are no better at sticking to Togashi than scanlations, then maybe you should ask someone with at least some knowledge of the language.


 * User talk:Mr. Toto 21:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ...i meant "Youku" was not a japnese word in that it's an imported word, not that it was made up for hxh. The word Youku doesn't actually mean York, it simply sounds like York. So it's just "york", except re-written so it's easier for japanese people to pronounce.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Youku" doesn't just simply sound like "York", it actually does mean York in Japanese. "New York" is written in Katakana in Japanese along with mostly every other foreign city/country in the world. The reasoning isn't because it's easier to pronounce, but because there's no such thing as a single "r" and single "k" in Japanese that can conclude the word. It has to be written as "Youku" in order to translate it. When describing New York in Japan, they don't write it in English letters. They translate it into Japanese ones in Katakana, because those are the only ones that it can be written in correctly.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"Emission" to "Emitter" is a pointless change--An Emitter is a person who can emit something. It's a form of the word "Emission", and it's useless to put it in parenthesis next to the original term. Same goes for Specialization and Manipulation. Viz actually has used both.

"Baise" to "Veze" doesn't make sense. The name was written as "Baise", and I can't see why it was changed in the scanlation version but not the translation. User talk:Mr. Toto 01:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you consider it a pointless change, then why not just keep it as emission? I for one, don't consider it as pointless. Emitter is a noun, it refers to a person. Emission as a nen type is an adjective - it describs a form of nen. Changing all the nen names, even if we use the scanlation ones, to nouns means re-writing sentences. And a person using emission has always been referred to as "an emission type nen user" and not "emitter". The main reason for changing the nen types, however, is because there are some differences. Like reinforcement/enhancer, and transformation/transmuter. So if i'm going to change the names back to scanlation names, i can't well keep half of them as nouns and the other half changed can i...
 * -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the thing--the Japanese names for the nen types have interchangeable translations. The Japanese word for "Enhancement", Kyouka, is the exact same word for "Reinforce" as well. Same thing with "Transformation" and "Transmutation". They're interchangeable. Since an official source has translated them like this, it makes a lot more sense to write the English name before the scanlated translation because that's how it's listed in the states. Only in scanlations and fansubs are they listed as "Reinforcement" and "Transformation".


 * "Emitter" is less of a mouthful than "Emission Type Nen User" (a literal translation, but it's less large in Japanese), especially since the Japanese way of writing it is tiny in comparison. If you wrote "Emission Type Nen User" in a translation of the manga, you would either need to extend the text box or reduce the text size. These two terms are interchangeable and mean the exact same thing.


 * User talk:Mr. Toto 21:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You see, at the end, you're argument still comes down to the fact that it's better to write the english as how the "official source has translated them" instead of how scanlators translate them. You say Kyouka is both enhancement and reinforce equally, so at the end, the only difference is the fact that one is official and the other is not.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's only partially what I'm saying. I just mean that it's near impossible to write "Emission Type Nen User" when translating it into the manga. An Emitter is just the type they are in the manga. Truthfully, it should be "Emission Type Nen User". With the Reinforcement/Enhancement terminology, I still think that the translators knew what they were doing when trying to translate these terms. I'll have to check out myself as to why they would choose one term over the other, but I'm sure there's a reason.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Which is exactly the point i'm trying to make - the only real difference used by the translations between the scanlators and ViZ (in the case of names which are translated - Not things like deme-chan to blinky, where deme-chan is non-translated and blinky is translated) is that one is an official source and the other is not.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if google proves that the scanlated translations are more popular, that still does not necessarily mean they are correct. In all of the cases above, the Viz translation has been more accurate and faithful to the original Japanese spellings. It's understandable, since they spend a lot more time on the product than scanlators do. There are even more cases as well that I still haven't listed. Even the Nen types, although the names can be interchangeable throughout both versions, work just as well in the Viz version.

The point I'm trying to make is that it makes little sense to go with a more popular fan translation, despite if it is correct or not. What if the HxH anime was licensed here and they used the Viz names? Then, more fans would prefer the English translation. Would we change it then? Or would we still cater to the fans who got their information through illegal means? I still do not see the logic in choosing a more popular name if fans like it better than what it is supposed to be.

Let's say I write a letter to Viz on their translating process--If I came up with some hard evidence that they consult Jump themselves and spend lots of time on translating the HxH manga correctly, then would we still keep the names that are more popular? Or the correct ones? User talk:Mr. Toto 01:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For a start, a lot of these names are a matter of either keeping the original japanese or adopting a translation. It just happens that it's much more of a rule amoungst scanlators to keep japanese names than amoungst manga companies. Take a look at Usagi Tsukino. All official english versions translate her name into Serena Tsukino. But the japanese (which is also what people in the scanlation community use) is used for the wikipedia article. -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This example is invalid. Serena is a name change, not a name translation. There's a difference. Name changes are when there's a blatant difference between the original name and the Japanese name. Especially changes in pronounciation (Which is actually occuring on the Zoldyck family page--for the last time, Zaoldyeck and Zoaldyeck are completely not acceptable as translations of his last name), flipping letters around, or changing the name completely. This isn't the case for any HXH character (Except maybe Kurotopi), simply because you're doing the exact same thing the dubbing company for Sailor Moon did to those character names. Only you're trying to justify it because you're used to it and that's what your fansubs say, so they must be correct. I've provided more than enough reasons as to why most of the Hunter x Hunter names in scanlations are incorrect, and also how Viz's translations come the closest to the original romaji and pronounciation (Except for terms you leave untranslated on here like "Genei Ryodan").
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 21:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The point of citing the Serena example was to show how the a japanese name takes preference over an english one. So deme-chan being japanese takes preference over blinky, which is english. I've never tried to prove the scanlations names to be correct. I've never claimed those names are correct - in terms of correct-ness of translation, my stand is still that there is no such thing as "correct" when translating proper nouns (names) from one language to another. Which is what i've been saying all along. My justification for using those names on Wikipedia is that they are the commonly used ones. And almost all the guildlines on naming conventions, as well as the ones specific to anime/manga, show how we use names which are generally used. This has nothing to do with getting things right, or accuracy - since name changes are not a factual thing.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Give me something other than "fans prefer this name", because that's completely irrelavent to the factual basis of an article. Just because fans prefer "Zaoldyeck" does not make it correct or even close to the original katakana writing of the name. If you're unable to do this, then there should not be any reason as to why we should not change to the Viz names. User talk:Mr. Toto 21:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is nothing other than the fact that the those names are prefered. The names themselves are irrelavant to the factual basis of the article. How to spell a name that's imported from another language, and how to translate proper nouns is not a matter of fact. ViZ chooses names they prefer, similar to the scanlators. ViZ has their priorities regarding what names are most suitable, the scanlators have theirs. I can't, and wont' bother trying, to provide another reason because there's no need to do so. It's clear the scanlator versions are more popular, and the guildlines make it clear for us to use the generally accepted names.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Names like Senritsu and Deme-chan would stay regardless because they are the japanese names. Unless Senritsu and Deme-chan become names which are rarely used amoungst english fans, and Melody and Blinky become names which are commonly used amoungst english fans. Same goes for Kuroro and Genei Ryodan, both being the original japanese names.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, if we follow that logic, then Gon's name should stay "Gon Furiikusu". And Kuroro's full name should be "Kuroro Rushirufuru". This arguement makes no sense. "Senritsu" and "Deme-chan" are not real Japanese names. "Senritsu" is the word for "Melody" in Japan. "Deme" is in reference to the eyes, and "Chan" is just a suffix that works as a nickname that has absolutely no equivalent in the English language. "Heaven's Arena" should be "Tenkou Tougijou". "Greed Island" should be "Guriido Airando".


 * Once again, this arguement is ridiculous. You're translating only some terms while leaving others untranslated. It makes absolutely zero sense to translate half of a word and not do the other when working with another language, unless it is intentional. Quite obviously, it wasn't intentional. Japanese fans understand "Genei Ryodan" as "Phantom Brigade". It makes complete sense to them because it's in their native language. "Genei Ryodan" is not in the English dictionary. No one knows what it means unless they look it up.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 21:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, i suppose it should be. Gee i wonder why "Gon Furiikusu" is used neither by scanlators or by ViZ? Same goes for "Rushirufuru" for Lucifer. There is no obvious reason for it, and i'm not going into an arguement about it since it's irrievalnt - both scanlators and viz do not use lucifer over rushirifuru. However, for osmething like senritsu to melody - melody is clearly an english translation. Similarly, blinky is obviously an english translation.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Scanslators and Viz don't use "Rushirufuru" for Lucifer because that's the obvious translation. Even though it's never even been translated into English in the guidebooks (Except as Wrlccywrlir in one), people seem to know it means "Lucifer." Even though Senritsu and Melody aren't read the same way, "Senritsu" is written in Kanji that means Melody. This is very rare for a HXH character, and it's obvious he wanted to get the meaning across. "Rushirufuru" is written in Katakana, and thus people write it as Lucifer.
 * User talk:Mr. Toto 16:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As for debatable names like York Shin City, i'd suspect it will be under heavy debate. If it because more popular and there were people advocating both for keeping it and for changing it to York New.
 * -- `/aksha 06:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Wikipedia was about accuracy, not about whether or not a fan likes the name better because of the way it is written. If this truly is supposed to be an online encyclopedia, then perhaps we need to make some changes in terms of if the content is correct or not. User talk:Mr. Toto 01:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But the problem is, neither is "correct". Offical does not mean correct. "Genei Ryodan" is very much the correct name in japanese - after all, that's what Togashi used. The question is whether ViZ's translation is deemed as correct in english as Togashi's ones are in japanese.


 * As for it being an encyclopedia - yes, that's why ViZ's names are included and acknolwedge in the articles. If you feel there needs to be more in the articles explaining ViZ's translations, then feel free to add them in. But the actual names used in the article is a matter of format, or style. And Wikipedia deals with it by the various "manual of style" guildlines which we have.


 * This is akin to how articles about living organisms are named by their commonly-used/popular names over their scientifically-correct latin names. (although all accurate information about scientific taxonomy about a species is included in the actual article)
 * -- `/aksha 06:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Once again, if you're choosing not to translate one term for an organization, then you might as well not do it for all the others. It makes no sense other than you like the name "Genei Ryodan" better because it sounds more awesome to you. That's not a valid reason as to why we should write it as "Genei Ryodan". The arguement with living organisms makes no sense either. Let me put it into terms you may recognize. The difference here is that you're not using the original names for everything, nor are you translating everything. You're using fansubs and scanlations as your only source of information without even checking the original Japanese source material, trying to translate, or even attempt to understand and search why Viz would use these translations instead of the ones you're familiar with in scanlations. Here's a fact: Your scanlations are not correct. Karuto is not what his name is intended to be. Gon's last name is officially spelled as Freecss. Killua's last name is not, nor will it ever be, Zoaldyeck or Zaoldyeck. That was a translation error. Check all of the other errors. Actually read and think about what I'm saying.


 * You seem to be quite familiar with Sailor Moon. What you're doing to Chrollo Lucifer is akin to writing her name as Seiraa Moon. You're not translating Sailor, but you translate the word "moon". What you're doing to Killua's last name is like if you wrote Sailor Galaxia's name as "Sailor Garaksheya" because the katakana has it as "Garakushia". Sure, these are extremes that you are unlikely to get wrong. But it's just the same way. What you're doing to the Phantom Troupe by not translating their name at all is as if you wrote Queen Nehellenia's name as "Jouou Neherenia". At least consider what I'm saying, because it all makes more sense than what's happening on the pages right now.


 * User talk:Mr. Toto 22:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * And i think what you are saying is wrong. All those facts you mentioned...the only one that is actually a fact is the "Gon's last name is officially spelled as Freecss". So at the end, it still comes down to what is official. Fansubs was never in the equation. I'm not using scanlations as the only source of information - i judged which names where more popular by which ones everyone uses, that includes hxh forums, hxh communities, and the sites that were used as references in writing the articles. I understand why ViZ uses those translations, but i don't agree. I'd say if anything, you don't try to understand why scanlators use their translations. But clearly, you don't seem to care - because scanlators are unofficial and that alone is a bad thing to you.


 * Anyhow, this discussion is getting us no where. We're arguing on different tangents. You are trying to prove ViZ's naming is correct and better. I'm don't care whether ViZ's translations are more correct because i believe there's no such thing as correct when it comes to translating proper nouns.
 * -- `/aksha 03:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But that's the thing. I actually have pretty good evidence that Viz's translations are more correct. Between you and I, I'm the only one who has actually gone and shown the differences between the katakana, romaji, and kanji of all of the names. In just about every instance, Viz's translations are more accurate than the scanlated ones.


 * When you say "i believe there's no such thing as correct", that statement itself is showing how proof must not be necessary to you. There is such a thing as correct when translating between languages. The problem is, I don't think it's as apparent to you because you haven't learned the language itself. I may not be as fluent as the scanlators are, but I know enough to tell the difference and meanings of most words after studying Japanese for several years. :::User talk:Mr. Toto 16:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Restarting discussions
This is continuing on from the debate above that was copied over to my talk page. I'm starting a new section...because the above is getting so complicated it's giving me a hard time to follow. Which means it'll probably be twice the headache for another editor who wasn't involved to read.

Mr. Toto - your entire argument from the above discussion, and the discussion from the Zoaldyeck talk page breaks down to three main points. 1. I can't proof that the scanlation translations are most popular. Many people have started reading hxh from ViZ's versions. 2. ViZ's translations are a more correct and consistent translation, and follows more faithfully to Togashi's intentions 3. ViZ is official. Scanlations are done by unprofessional translators

I'm going to address them one at a time.

1. Manga, especially those which are not very popular in real life, exists largely as an internet phenomenon. Even if that wasn't the case, what is popular in real life feeds in onto the internet. Google for "Hunter x Hunter" or "Hunter x Hunter + manga" and you'll find there's nothing on the first page that uses ViZ's translations, or is even about ViZ's licensed manga. On the first page, you'll find fan-sites that either use their own novel translations, or the scanlation ones. Nexgear forums (home of hxh scanlations) comes up about two pages above the officla ViZ site (or anything else that uses ViZ's translations for that matter), says a lot. Googling for individual names also shows much higher returns for scanlation names than ViZ's translations. All popular internet fandom centers - like fanfiction.net, forums, fanlistings, livejournal groups...use scanlation names almost exclusively. "I was introduced to Hunter x Hunter through Viz's translations first, and I am sure that many others were as well." which I'm sure is true; after all, ViZ's has had over 10 hxh volumes on the selves for about a year. But it becomes insignificant when you consider how many fans where introduced to HxH manga through scanlations first. Even now, HxH scanlations are more popular than ViZ's volumes. And before ViZ was around...scanlations have already had several years worth of readers. This doesn't even include the HxH anime, which is exclusively fansub. 2. You attempt to use evidence from the manga to prove that ViZ's translations are more correct in terms of how to translate Japanese to English. Disregarding the fact that I believe your arguments are flaws, you're 'proof' for the name translations are original research. There are no reliable sources to say which one is correct - except for you, who use primary evidence straight out of the manga (that's even with the assumption that your arguments are correct). You know what Wikipedia says about original research? No original research. Things like this "I assumed he wanted "Chrollo" because the official guidebook was released after the 12th volume, which would give him time to improve his English. "Phalcnothdk" was a result of poor English. Maybe if he had a better translator, we would have some concrete evidence." are backed up by your interpretation of primary evidence. You assume, you believe, maybe if he had better translators...etc. Which could all well be true, but it's pointless. Let's just say you manage to convince me that some of those names are more correct than others. What are you trying to achieve? What you manage to prove is still your original research. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, we report knowledge that already exists. We don't do our own research, or come up with our own proofs for things, or include our own conclusions based on our own logic into articles. The pre-existing facts which we have to work with are things like the fact that many versions of the translation already exists, or that ViZ uses one version. As for Toagshi's translations - the only official English names from Togashi are never used. Togashi also adds a few romanizations into the manga here and there. The ones which make sense and are significant like Ging instead of Jing are used. In other places, togashi contradicts himself by providing both Quoll and Chrollo. The conclusions you reach about which one Togashi intended at the end is once again, your original research. 3. I've quoted guideline after guideline above showing how we have an emphasis on the most commonly used name when there is more than one available. The ration behind it is that we should use the name which the majority of readers will be familiar with, the names which the majority of readers are more likely to enter into the search box and hit go. If the licensed version was to be held superior simply because it was licensed, then why is there no mention of that in any of the guidelines? Guidelines for comics, Japanese manual of style, guidelines on the wikipedia anime/manga project page? No, nothing. Official often means the most common names, but being official alone is meaningless. Especially when the official we're talking about is not actually from the original author, but from a second party licensing company. This has all been discussed before (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Fictional characters). One of the problems the discussion addressed was whether to use names found in official English-language versions of the product even when the version was little known or unpopular. The discussion never ended up adding anything to the guidelines, but the agreement that was more or less reached at the end was to use the version of the name that is version of the name that is most commonly recognized by English speakers, which in this case is 'not ViZ's names. Go read that and you'll probably find your arguments for the "official version is better/more accurate/more correct/more faithful to the original" were probably already addressed. -- `/aksha 03:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That "No Original Research" page you linked me to was quite interesting. After reading through it, there's some information that maybe you should take a look at.


 * I believe you're missing this sentence in that link about no original research: "All articles in Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources." The scanlated version of Hunter X Hunter has not been published--the English version and the Japanese version have. There shouldn't be a medium from where information is collected from a source that is not primary or secondary. Even if the scanlated version of Hunter X Hunter is a secondary source, the key word there is published.


 * "That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate." This sentence regards all scanlations as incorrect. The only material published into English of Hunter x Hunter is the Viz version or the original Japanese one.


 * "It is an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable, so we rely on reliable published sources." From all of the errors shown in many scanlations, they're not as reliable as VIZ can be.


 * "For non-academic subjects, there is no firm definition of "reliable." In general, most of us have a good intuition about the meaning of the word. A magazine or press release self-published by an extremist political or religious group would not be regarded as "reliable," and could only be used in articles about those groups. In contrast, The New York Times is generally accepted as a trustworthy source." Okay, so tell me which is more trustworthy. Example A is a translation company (VIZ Media) that has correctly translated many titles for years that not only is a part of and owned by Shueisha, the original Japanese publishers of Hunter x Hunter, but also is likely to have direct contact with the creator himself. Example B is a scanlation group that has none of this access and mainly has to guess on what the names of characters, areas, and other dialogue should be based on the translation of someone who isn't a professional translator.


 * " "No original research" does not prohibit experts on a specific topic from adding their knowledge to Wikipedia. It does, however, prohibit expert editors from drawing on their personal and direct knowledge if such knowledge is unverifiable. Wikipedia welcomes the contributions of experts, as long as these contributions come from verifiable (i.e. published) sources." Although I'm not an expert on the subject, neither are the scanlators. Therefore, all of us are not counted as reliable sources.


 * Although it is not possible to prove which are more popular (Because you're excluding a great number of fans--not only those who read the English translation of the manga, but fans in other countries as well), since we're going solely by internet standards, then I suppose you're correct. But what does that have to do with whether or not the translation is correct or not? I've already given you instances in which the scanlation has been completely incorrect in its translation of terms. Even if the fans use it more, it does not make sense to use an incorrect translation.


 * In the Naruto fandom, "Maito Gai" is used by fans more than "Might Guy". However, the first one is incorrect and despite being used by fans more, the Wikipedia page uses the latter translation. In the Naruto Wikipedia page, they also use the Viz translation for some attack names and other character names, even though they've been used by fans three or four years prior to the English airing. However, notice that they also use literal direct translations of attack names because they're correct. Not because they're used more by fans or because they're in scanlations. That's how a page should be run at the very least.


 * Oh, and I've checked more than one source of scanlation for the series. One of them uses "Zoldik" as a translation for Killua's last name; another suitable one that works. Another one uses the incorrect translation of Feitan's name as "Faitan". Where do you draw the line on which translation to use for the page?


 * The main problem is that you are unable to prove a majority of people prefer the scanlation names--you can only prove that they're used more often on the internet. The references that you use (which are scanlations) are not only limited, but unreliable as well. Therefore, some of the points listed in the "NPOV" page are irrelevant here. Unless you can find a reputable source that can show how the translations used in unreliable sources are correct, then I don't see a reason as to why we shouldn't use the VIZ translations. According to these rules, popularity only matters when a majority is able to cite reliable texts in which they can prove their arguement is correct.


 * Before you make a comment to this reply, read the following pages in their entirety:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
 * --User talk:Mr. Toto 00:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether the scanlations are considered a reliable source or not is irrelevant. The guidelines say to use the "most commonly used name". The names created by scanlators are used, whether they themselves are reliable or not is not the point.


 * Let's put it this way, if scanlators claimed their translations are more correct than ViZ's translations, they will not be taken any more seriously than you are. Because they are equally an unreliable source.


 * Another way to look at it would be that if you went out and created your own set of hxh translations. And they became the commonly used translations, then your translations will be used instead of the scanlator ones. It doesn't matter whether you call yourself a scanltor, or a professional translator, or just the random guy off the streets. However, it would not make you a reliable source, any more than scanlators currently count as a reliable source. And it wouldn't make your claims about which is the more correct translation any more reliable.


 * The emphasis for "most commonly used names" is on the used names part. The scanlator names are one set of names which are indeed used. The reason to use those names on wikipedia is because they are most commonly used, not because they're from scanlations. I just refer to them as scanlation names because it's easier than saying "the most commonly used names as opposed to the viz names". The actual fact of them originating from scanlations holds no weight. Just like the way the official translations being official itself holds no weight. It just happens the most commonly used names in hxh are almost all scanlation names.


 * Similarly, we don't use Faitan. It's because Faitan is not commonly used. You will probably say that is because "Faitan" is wrong. Someone could just as well say "Faitan" looks aesthetically ugly. But those are all unimportant. The fact that Faitan has been previously used by scanlations is also unimportant. The important thing is that Faitan is not commonly used.


 * As for popularity – the internet shows two things. Firstly, it shows how popular the scanlation names are. Secondly, it shows how there is absolutely no evidence at all of the ViZ names being at all popular. If the hxh in real life was at all popular, then why has no hxh reader in real life posted a hxh story onto fanfiction.net (which would use ViZ names). Why are there no fansites using ViZ names. There are internet fansites for everything as long as the thing had a group of people liking it in real life. Why does typing "Chrollo fanlisting" or "Chrolo fanlisting" into google get absolutly no results?


 * You see, when a manga series is popular in real life, it will show on the internet. Let's take your naruto example. "Maito Gai" gets about 30 thousand on a google test. "Might Guy" gets about 15 thousand. This 2:1 result is indeed ambigious. Although Maito Gai clearly has more google hits than Might Guy, people can argue that naruto is very popular in real life. Although the internet does give an indication of popularity in real life, it may not be accurate. All those people who watched naruto when Naruto anime was played on public TV would be familiar with "Might Guy". The internet clearly shows that Might Guy is popular, the only question is how popular compared to Maito Guy?


 * Now, let's look at hxh. If we google in "Blinky + Shizuku", we get 92 results. Scrolling through all the results, (it's only three pages) and reading the summaries for all the results, guess what I found? The only results where "Blinky" is actually refering to Shuzuku's vacumn cleaner are the google cached pages of wikipedia (and wikipedia's mirrors), and a few discussion threads where people are specifically talking about ViZ vs. Scanlator translations. "Deme + Shizuku" or "Deme-chan + Shizuku" gets about 6 times as much. And guess what? The "deme" in the results is actually referring to Shizuku's vacumne cleaner.


 * "Chrollo Lucifer" comes up with about 36 results (19 are from wikipedia and wikipedia mirrors. another 13 are from the forum run by the hxh scanlation group.) "Kuroro Lucifer" gets more than 500 hundred. Which is far more significant than the 1:2 ratio for Might Guy/Maito Gai.


 * And as much as this pains me – you should take a look Amazon's sale rankings for HxH (vol 1). Which I think counts as a reliable indicator of how popular hxh is in real life. (for comparison's sake, something like naruto gets a sales rank of up to 15 thousand.


 * Which is why we should use the scanlation names based on "use the most commonly used name". I'll repeat myself – there're no guildlines or policies, or conventions on wikipedia that involve putting a official name above other names simply because it is official. If you think official names should be put above other names, then go to the anime/manga project talk page. But do go read the previous discussion on fictional character names I linked to earlier, that's basically what you'll be debating in. -- `/aksha 06:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll reply to this fully later, but I just now realized that "Gon Freecss" is more commonly used than "Gon Freecs" in terms of Gon's last name, according to several search engines. We should probably change the name to reflect that.
 * --User talk:Mr. Toto 01:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * According to Google, "Freaks" seems to be way ahead of either Freecss or Freecs. Can't believe i missed that before. Will fix. If there're any other mistakes, please do point them out. -- `/aksha 06:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a recommendation, i really think it would be a good idea for you to actually log in to your account when you edit, especially when you're signing talk page comments. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, but it does sort of defeat the purpose of an account (user accounts hide ip addresses, and they allow editors to establish an identity). It means other editors have no way of knowing whether a comment signed as you is actually written by you or not, and it may also become a problem if someone else makes edits from your ip address (i'd assume this edit made by the same ip is you, but what about this older one?). If you're planning to stick around wikipedia in the long run, prolly a good idea to tick that "remember me" box when logging in. -- `/aksha 07:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The "Freaks" thing is kind of a hard thing to establish. Yes, it has more searches at first look. However, go to the end of the pages to where the omitted searches are. As you can tell, a good 18,000 were omitted because they were from pages from identical addresses to previous searches. However, the name "Gon Freecss" has more searches on individual webpages than the other. If you look at it this way, then "Gon Freecss" is the more popular term.
 * --User talk:Mr. Toto 02:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * One could also go do a google test with restrictions to english pages only (which is appropriate, since we're talking about the term most commonly used in the english speaking community). In which case "Freeccs" gets only 5 results, "Freecs" gets 76 unique results, and "Freaks" gets 82 unique results. This is just as a significiant point as searching for individual webpages too. Especially when you take into account that many results come from social sites. 1000 results coming from the same fansite may not mean much, since it just means one individual running the site uses that word. 1000 results coming from a forum or blogging service is not the same, but still counts as one unique hit. -- `/aksha 09:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Freecss has two S's, not C's. This gets about 70 results, except for one of those being a forum username. Take into account all of the usages of those words. Freaks gets 82 unique results, but out of those, 18 of them reference a username some kid uses on forums, three reference a dead webshine created in 2002 and destroyed eventually, and three more of them are from Wikipedia and Answers.org (A mirror of Wikipedia's information). "Gon Freecs" has two results from an old Wikipedia page that's been changed, 2 separate usernames from two different forums, 3 are from Anime News Network (Which takes user submitted info from the same people--anyone can change it.), and another three are from an identical post on three different forums about Jump Ultimate Stars. Taking this into account, "Gon Freecss" is the most popular name.
 * --User talk:Mr. Toto 23:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary header
No, it's not. I don't think you get the point here - names being chosen as screennames, when it is in clear reference of the character, is a sign of the name being used. We're trying to get a measure of how commonly used the names are. It doesn't really matter of google results come from "some kid" on a forum, because kids using it on a forum are an as valid indication of use as some kid running a fansite. The end of the story is, Freaks got adopted by the english hxh fandom, freecss didn't. The reason was probably because some random person made an arbitrary decision the first time Gon's surname popped up in the manga, but that hardly matters. -- `/aksha 06:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of the sites that use "Freaks" do not have very much to do with the Hunter X Hunter fandom. In fact, many of them are one-time reviews of the first few episodes of the series. What about the dates these pages were created? Hunter X Hunter is not very popular, and most of the fansites that were around previously have been dismantled already. If we go by even scanlations or fansubs instead of Viz's graphic novels, although I would have to recheck to make sure, "Freaks" hasn't been used for a majority of the series.


 * I suppose another point I have to make is how do you know for sure that the Viz graphic novel is not currently more popular than the internet sources so far? We've never gotten an exact number of how many books have been sold, but there's a very good chance that many people are being exposed to the series in this way, as I was. However, this is immeasurable. But it's still something to think about.--Mr. Toto 20:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Look, to put it very bluntly, i don't agree with your ideal or your reasoning behind this, and i don't think i'm wrong to say you don't agree with mine either. We're not going to get anywhere. And i don't really like discussions coming down to who has the stamina to keep argueing for the longest. If you're really bent on wanting to change names (and/or the guildline that governs it), i suggest we either take this to the dispute resolution system, or you can try and get a third opinion (either here or on a user talk page) from someone else who edits these articles. Frankly speaking, i don't see myself compromising on this. And since i don't own these articles, you have as much power to change them as i do, so if we end up in an edit war over it, it'll end up at dispute resolutions anyway.


 * (excuse the break. It makes long talk pages like this easier to edit for us folks on slow net connections) -- `/aksha 06:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, one more thing then. What about if you google test "Ging Freecss"? That has more searches than "Ging Freaks", but it's still changed. I would rather just discuss this rather than get into an edit war over the entire thing, because that would be pointless. Unfortunately, we aren't getting much input from other users in this really. I'd love to hear what everyone else who frequents the board thinks of the matter, so we can settle this quietly. Perhaps a debate is in order. I'm unfamiliar with the dispute resolution system, so perhaps you could explain it to me and we may give that a try. If a majority wants to keep it this way, then I will have no problem whatsoever in doing so. However, so far I've only seen this view from you (since no one has replied).--Mr. Toto 20:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think, it's safe to say Ging is a secondary character to Gon. Otherwise, we may as well add "Mito Freecss" into the equation. Besides, it's really not all that important. Even though people disagree on which spelling to use, i think everyone would agree that Gon and Ging have the same surname - so really, most people would just use for Ging whatever they used for Gon.

Well, you do realize that naming conventions, like all the other guildlines, are meant to be a reflection of community wide consensus? I can personally recall quite a few times naming conventiosn have been under fire, and always, the philosophy of "use what the readers would use" comes through.

Anyhow, i'll post a note to the animemanga project, and to the other people who've been editing hxh articles if you don't want to do it. And i'll start a new section too (i don't think people really want to wade through all of this). -- `/aksha 08:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I know you disagree with my views, but there has to be some sort of median that we can all agree on. As I've said before, many of the terms are incorrectly translated into English and as a result have been adopted by fans. Maybe we should at least attempt to make them more accurate, because Viz's names generally are more faithful to the actual ones given. The only thing I'm trying to do is make the pages as accurate as I can, and I still can't agree with the idea that even though names used in scanlations and such are translated incorrectly, they're allowed to stay onto the page. --Mr. Toto 20:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As i've said before, the reason they're being used is not because the scanlators use them. It's because most of the hxh fandom does. We (wikipedia) are not trying to 'correct' or 'make right' things. We write about things as they are. If there're reliable sources to say ViZ's names are generally more correct, or in this case more correct, or what the correct names are, then what we need is a section of the article stating so. So for example, hypothetically, if someone published a book regarding how ViZ operates. Then we would write about the fact that someone has published such a book and what they have said. I'm quite certain this was in some guildline or essay here, i'll go and try to find it. -- `/aksha 08:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I had thought that Togashi actually wrote out "Freecss" in the chapter where Gon is trying to use the internet to figure stuff out about his dad. I can't remember exactly where it was, since I don't have the Viz manga with me at the moment, but the name was hand-written. Viz almost always types up everything they do with the exception of large sound-effects onomatopoieas, so it was most likely that Viz didn't transliterate this. Ron Stoppable 05:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary division
Yikes, it looks like I opened up a can of worms. I guess I'll continue my position as an arms dealer and give you Viz's names for stuff introduced in Volume 11, which just recently came out. I guess I'll follow the way the list at the top is written.

Hanzou <-> Hanzo (I just caught this now. his name shows up in Volume 1)* Lucifer <-> Lusilfer (Volume 11; page 44) Ryuuseigai <-> Meteor City (Volume 11; page 170 and back cover) Tompa <-> Tonpa (also in Volume 1)

(Hanzo's name is spelled "Hanzo" under the list of Hunters but "Hanzou" under the list of minor characters.)

In addition, it looks like Shalnark's "Black Voice" was lengthened to "Black Voice: Mobile Fate Detector." Kuroro/Chrollo's book power is given a name: "Skill Hunter: Bandit's Secret." Zeno's power's name is also extended to "Dragon Head: Long-Tou Xi-Hua," and him firing it is called the "Dragon Lance." Korutopi's ability is extended to "Gallery Fake: Divine Left Hand, Demonic Right Hand." Finally, looking at the events toward the end of Volume 11, Kuroro/Chrollo was one of the six from the Ryuuseigai/Meteor City; that means he only gathered five others, not six. As for Biscuit's name, I'll find out when Viz gets to Greed Island. They're at #11 right now; will it be a long time before she's introduced?

When I checked out the link to Amazon selling Volume 9, it was nearly completely sold out. Maybe the Viz manga is growing in popularity...? All it takes is for the anime to show up on American TV for it to really accelerate; I'll bet Naruto name in the Viz versions weren't too hot either until the anime was released on Cartoon Network.

I'd like to menton that that's a terrible picture of Nobunaga; he's all bent down, and you can't see his face. Is that the best that was available"?

And one last thing: I saw a fansub of the anime that referred to the fuzzy dude as Korutopi, and I think the Hunter Depot also calls him Korutopi. Viz's decision to call him Kortopi makes a lot more sense when it's Korutopi than Kurotopi. Wikipedia is the only place I've seen that calls him Kurotopi. Ron Stoppable 10:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * ahh...awsome. Thanks for the list. I've added in the names for the nen abilities. I think they are actually ViZ's translations, and not just lenghenings. I can remember seeing things like "Gallery Fake: Left Hand of God, Right Hand of the Devil" and "Skill Hunter: the quientenence of theft" on fansites long belong ViZ licensed HxH. I've never actually seen the full names used, so we may as well stick to whatever ViZ's cropped up.


 * Hanzo should just be Hanzo. I'm not sure why it's "Hanzou" on the minor character's list. As for Korutopi/Kurotopi....i'll be honest and say i didn't notice the difference. Let's just go with Korutopi then, it does come up higher on google, and the depot's by far the most informative fansite on the web. Biscuit appears first in volume 14 (the GI arc starts towards the end of vol13).


 * With Kuroro, there's defintely 6 others. IIRC, there's actually a scene somewhere in the manga where Pakunoda's having a flashback, and you can see Kuroro when he was younger along with 6 other people (here's the appropriate page from chapter 114.). The confusion comes from the fact that Pakunoda says the Ryodan had six members when it begun. So either it's a plot inconsistency or "members" didn't include Kuroro.


 * I'll go get a better picture of Nobu uploaded. I've been meaning to do hxh pictures for a while now, but i seem to be just too lazy =P.


 * "When I checked out the link to Amazon selling Volume 9, it was nearly completely sold out. Maybe the Viz manga is growing in popularity...?" heh...you're optimistic. Or maybe i'm just a pessimist. I'd just assumed sold out meant they weren't bothering to print more, and not so much that so much has been sold. I'm hoping they do license the anime too. I personally can't stand dubbing, but it would be nice to see hxh become more popular. If it does though, it'd be pretty obvious. Especially considering how the hxh internet community is sort of at a halt right now, since Togashi's ill and hasn't released any new chapters for quite a while. -- `/aksha 12:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, with Nobunaga's picture, i just noticed the pics on the Ryodan article are actually anime screenshots. All i've got is the hxh manga. I can get a better picture of Nobunaga with his face, but it'll be black and white (from the manga). Finding a better screenshot of him seems tricky, because the name "Nobunaga" is actually the name of some famous ancient japanese samurai, so google picture for "Nobunaga" doesn't really help. Do you think it's worth replacing his picture with a black and white one? -- `/aksha 12:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, so I only have three more volumes to go until Greed Island starts. This story is a lot shorter than I thought it'd be. I have to wonder what will happen when Viz actually catches up to Togashi...Hopefully, Togashi will recover before that can happen.


 * Also, is that a scanlation? It uses an identical font with Viz. I actually thought it was Viz for a moment. (Viz leaves a bit more room in each of their speech balloons though.) And I get now; the Spiders started out with 7 and expanded themselves by six over time. I got my information from Volume 11, when the guy at the database analyzes six bodies, as well as Nobunaga's flashback immediately afterward, where it shows six kids tossing a videotape among each other.


 * I might try searching for pictures of Nobunaga; perhaps attaching the word "Hunter" to the search will help some.Ron Stoppable 01:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I hope so too. Togashi's releasing has been really quite erratic since...about 2004. And the drawing quality in the chapter releases has been sort of...going downhill too, supposedly because of his health problem as well. Although ViZ isn't catching up any time soon - the last full volume release of HxH was vol 23. The arc after Greed Island is looooooong (and as of yet still unfinished).


 * That page was from a scan yeah. I've noticed the same few fonts are used a lot in manga, so the font similarity is just a coincidence (i highly doubtful ViZ has suddenly decided to honor scanlators by following suite on font...XP) Either that...or it could be a font Togashi originally used somewhere in the manga for english letters, and everyone just followed. -- `/aksha 02:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Viz is going at a very steady rate of two months per volume, so it'll take them two years to reach Volume 23. Also, I have that font. It's called "Anime Ace," so I guess it was meant for manga text. Of course, some comics made outside of Japan use that font too. I heard Togashi actually went through two fits of illnesses, one in late 2005 and another one in January 2006. Either that, or it was mentioned twice on the Anime News Network.


 * On another note, when I checked the profile for the anime, it looks like English is going to be the last major language it'll be translated into. The HxH anime has already been dubbed into Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Korean, and Chinese. Ron Stoppable 07:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Anime Ace huh...figures. so there was't a conspiracy behind almost all scanlators...and ViZ...using the same font after all =P . The profile for the anime? If you're talking about the one on this article, then...just because the anime's aired in a country, it doesn't actually mean it's been dubbed in its language. Subtitled anime does get aired. -- `/aksha 11:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it provides a separate list of voice actors for each language. Ron Stoppable 05:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Togashi's translations
Regarding the "official" translations from Togashi, I think it might just be the editors of the [i]tankōbon[/i] adding in their own translations (unless Togashi himself said "these are the official names"). This happens in many series. For instance, each volume of the series Fullmetal Alchemist names the character Ling Yao "Lin Yao," despite the fact that his name has been shown in the manga as Ling (on a prison bracelet). This is most likely due to the people who create the tankōbon not doing their research. Chibi Gohan 21:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * IIRC, Togashi's 'english names' are not from the actual manga chapters. The only times they are used in the actual manga is when Togashi drew up the results of character popularity polls (one page in a chapter nearing the end of the hunter exam, and one other page around volume 12.) Other than that, Togashi's 'english names' appear to be from the two HxH guildbooks. I suppose this could be from editors, we don't really know. The only name that we can be 100% sure about is 'ging', and only because the spelling of 'ging' is significant to the story plot at one point. -- `/aksha 00:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The reason for the discrepency that you provided for FMA is easily explained because it's a Chinese name. In Japanese the "ng" sound is reproduced as n (ン). One version is an exact romanization of the Japanese name, the other is the Romanization of the chinese name.  It's not really a different translation, it's a different transliteration. --Kunzite 14:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Naming of Arcs
"One more thing. In the Japanese HXH wiki, they list the arc names in a different way than we do here. For example, the Genei Ryodan'' Arc is called the "Yorknew City (The Spider Arc)" there. The Chimera Ant arc is split into two parts called "Chimera Ant (NGL Arc)" and "Chimera Ant (The Birth of the King Arc)." Should we change those to reflect that?" User talk:Mr. Toto 14:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)''


 * Not a translation issue. Names given to arcs in manga are arbitrary (or at least in HxH they are) - fans decide them. Arcs are not explicitly named. In HxH, arcs don't even have well defined starts and finishes - there are often a few chapters which could be considered to be a part of both arcs. Using names for arcs just makes it easier to refer to one part of a story when discussion. York Shin arc, for example, gets called everything from the Spider Arc to Kurapika's Arc.


 * The scanlations never gave names to arcs or specified them. I don't believe ViZ does either. So i don't see what the big deal is, as long as it's consistent. Naming arcs just makes it easier to refer to one part of the story. If it becomes a problem, we can ditch it all together (As in "Story Arcs" becomes something like "plot summary", and we don't use subheadings, so there's no need to actually give names to arcs. It would involve a bit of rewriting though.) -- `/aksha 04:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

A call of opinion regarding naming in HxH
Requesting some outside opinion regarding naming conventions.

Basically, when ViZ licensed HxH, they started using a set of name translations different from what fans had previously used. Using the google test, and from looking at what names were used in various online communities, fanfiction and forums, i believed that the fan versions are still by far the most commonly used names.

So in accordance with our guidelines - "use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)" (WP:ANIME), i changed all the names on hxh articles a few weeks ago. I figured those were the most recognised names, a bit like "When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?" from WP:NC(CN) i suppose.

This was contested by another editor who argued that the ViZ versions are either more accurate, or more faithful to Togashi's (the mangaka) intentions; and that internet methods like the google test can't really show how popular ViZ's version may be in the meatspace.

The huge long discussion above is basically at a standstill right now. So hence, this request for some outside opinion.

For relavent precedants - we have Might Guy (where the 'official' translation is used over "Maito Gai") and Roronoa Zoro (where this discussion decided to use "Zoro" instead of the ViZ/4kids "Zolo"). There's also been this previous discussion about fictional jap characters here. -- `/aksha 10:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Could someone post a list of all character names and the competing transliterations, please? It would help get to the heart of the matter quickly. --Kunzite 13:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's already done, in the first topic on this talk page. But i'll list it out here again. (NOTE - possibly not a 100% complete list. This was just put together by the bits and pieces various editors have posted on the talk page previous (see archieve)) -- `/aksha 03:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Commonly used <-> ViZ Biscuit Kruger <-> hasn't appeared yet (ViZ is only up to vol 13) Black Voice <-> Black Voice: Mobile Fate Detector Celestial Tower <-> Heavens Arena Bonorenofu <-> Bonolenov Deme-chan <-> Blinky Double Machine Gun <-> Dual Machine Gun Dragon Head <-> Dragon Head: Long-Tou Xi-Hua / Dragon Lance Emission <-> Emitter Freaks <-> Freecss Fun Fun Cloth <-> Magic Fun Cloth Gallery Fake <-> Gallery Fake: Divine Left Hand, Demonic Right Hand Genei Ryodan (Phantom Brigade) <-> Phantom Troupe Gereda <-> Geretta Injyuu <-> Shadow Beasts Jeitosari <-> Jeitsari Jeni <-> Jenny Jonas <-> Johness Kaito <-> Kite Karuto <-> Kalluto Kukuruu Mountain <-> Kukuroo Mountain Kuroro (Quoll) <-> Chrollo Korutopi <-> Kortopi Kuruta <-> Kurta Lucifer <-> Lusilfer Manipulation <-> Manipulator Materialization <-> Conjurer Nostrad <-> Nostrade Phinx <-> Phinks Pokkuru <-> Pokkle Pourhaato <-> Puhat Reinforcement <-> Enhancer Rippo <-> Lippo Ryuuseigai <-> Meteor City Satotsu <-> Satotz Senritsu <-> Melody Skill Hunter <-> Skill Hunter: Bandit's Secret Skuwala <-> Squala Specialization <-> Specialist Suoer <-> Sommy Tompa <-> Tonpa Transformation <-> Transmuter Tsezugera <-> Tsezgerra Veze <-> Baise York Shin City <-> Yorknew City Zaoldyeck <-> Zoldyck

I'd like to make a correction: Viz spells "Yorknew" as one word. Ron Stoppable 05:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * done -- `/aksha 05:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Going back to this topic, I've gone back to the Naruto page (Specifically, the list of Ninjutsu in Naruto page) and it appears that for every technique listed, they've opted to go for the most correct translation of the word rather than the most popular. For example, they choose to use the term "Spiraling Sphere" instead of the greatly more popular term "Rasengan." Just to note, "Spiraling Sphere" is not even the term they use in the English version--it's simply a translation. This is consistent throughout the entire list of Ninjutsu. Should we not go with more literal translations instead, as they do? --Mr. Toto 1:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Naruto does that. Other anime series does others. As for "Spiraling Sphere", it must come from somewhere. If it's not the official English version, then it must be a translation that is used elsewhere. As in the translation "Spiraling Sphere" must exist independantly outside of Wikipedia. Otherwise it would be original research. By using it, it's either commonly used. Or the naruto editors have agreed to use some kind of naming convention across all Naruto technique names.
 * either way, Naruto is really not such a great example if we're talking about using popular names. Since naruto is well....extraordinarily high profile outside of the anime community. Which really isn't normal. Naruto anime these days is practically in mainstream children's television. -- `/aksha 12:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Anime, Names, & Hiatus
1)Okey, all of the anime/manga pages need info on both the anime & manga unless there are enough significant differences in the 2 that each merrits it's own page. Also, the anime has 92 episodes covering the first 4 sagas. The Chimaera Ant arc never got an animated series, did it? If it did, it was after Akufansubs called it quits as they claim that the Hunter X Hunter fansubs was "completed." Viz was really dumb enough not to translate York Shin into New York after Chicago's mentioned? -.-*

2)Here's a Japanese site that has small images from an official Hunter X Hunter art book from the anime. It shows how the names were ment to be spelled in English. (Though I believe Hisoka's Hyskoa was a typo). http://www.nippon-animation.co.jp/na/hunter/chara/chara_top.html

3)Don't worry too much about the manga being abandoned. Several mangaka will wait for as long as a decade before touching a story again but most feel compelled to "put a cap on an opened bottle." It's believed that the manga Yami no Matsuei/Decendants of Darkness will continue if not from pressure from the original Japanese publishers, after profits started comming in for the hiatused manga from Viz. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.183.126.141 (talk • contribs).


 * Well, they're at Volume 11, so I wouldn't know about Chicago's mentioning. It seems that, for the most part though, they translate rather than transliterate, which is good.


 * That website seems to adopt the really weird spellings that neither the fantranslations nor Viz would pick up. I think most people here have dismissed those from the very beginning as Togashi's lack of knowledge of English pronunciations (and failure to see typos). Ron Stoppable 03:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't this art book for the anime only? Togashi didn't do any of the charcter designs on that webpage, and I assume he didn't romanize the names here either. That's why the names given are discredited. I could be wrong, but I'm sure at least that he didn't have any part in drawing those images. Mr. Toto 17:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The hxh anime was "completed". The HxH anime finishes at where the (fake) dead bodies of the Ryodan turn up. After that, there is then an OVA that finishes the York Shin City arc, two OVAs that complete Greed Island arc. The Ant arc has not been animated, there are currently no plans to do so. I doubt "Hyskoa" is a typo. Togashi created a full set of rather wierd "english" spellings for his characters, which showed up in the hxh data books. These tend to get used as "english spellings" in official japanese hxh mechandise. They get really wierd (Hyskoa for Hisoka would have to be one of the better ones), change a lot, and no one uses them. -- `/aksha 12:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? There are fanpages saying that the Chimaera Ant arc is going to be animated whether the manga is finished or not. Naturally there will be screw-ups, but sometimes it's refreshing when the manga & anime are different.


 * They're just rumors. The fanpages don't know what they're talking about, and they're mostly very old. Actually, if you can point me to any fanpages that are up to date, i'd be very happy. Because there are very very few of them. And even fewer that have any good information on them. The official sites and stuff don't have any info. Following that, forums are the best source of info and so far there's been no reliable word of a chimera ant arc anime. Although....Togashi is going to start releasing the manga again, so maybe after he finishes the chimera ant arc, a company may consider animating it. -- `/aksha 08:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I want to ask, the character names in http://www.nippon-animation.co.jp/na/hunter/chara/chara_top.html become weird. Curapica becomes Curarpikt and Hisoka becomes Hyskoa. Can somebody explain this? --- LeonLanford 07:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * sigh:: Is the haitus over yet?..... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.187.53 (talk) 02:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Genei Ryodan Page Inserts
Just letting you know, I'm updating the Genei Ryodan page with the katakana for each member's names, along with the actual member numbers that they are. The information is posted on the Japanese wikipedia page for Hunter X Hunter--all I did was add it on.

Also, someone has been adding on fake characters to the page, such as "Para Shooz" and "Danalea." Please refrain from doing so again. -- Mr. Toto 1:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Character Images
I think it would be helpful if we were able to put up images for each character in the series. As far as I know, the Phantom Troupe page is the only one so far that has images of each characer (Except Chrollo). If anyone would be willing to help me grab screenshots for use, it would be greatly appreciated. Make sure you read the guidelines before uploading an image though. --Mr. Toto 01:51, 06 December 2006 (UTC)

Alluka Dispute and the Zoldyck Names
As many of you know, the name "Alluka" has not been confirmed by Togashi himself, nor is anything known about the character aside from his appearance from behind. However, for some odd reason, his name is listed in the Zoldyck Family page complete with a bio.

I'm not exactly sure I see the rationing in doing so. I was told that it followed the pattern "IlluMilluKilluAlluKalluto", but this is pure fan speculation with no concrete evidence on the character revealed. I believe we should get rid of the Alluka page, until he actually makes an appearance in the manga.

The second area that needs work is once again, the name of the youngest Zoldyck child "Kalluto." I think its fairly obvious that every child in the Zoldyck family has two "L"s in their name, yet Kalluto is the only one to break away from this translation on the wiki because that's what's used in the fan scanlations.

But his name follows the exact same pattern as the others in Japanese. Calling "Kalluto" by the name of "Karuto" technically isn't wrong, but we know the intent, so why bother keeping it in romaji? It would be as if we kept all of the Zoldyck children's names this way, such as "Irumi" or "Kirua." I believe we should change it to "Kalluto" for consistency at the very least.

Seeing as how other articles are not going by the most popular names, then perhaps it should not be necessary here either if we know for them to be incorrect. The same would go for "Gon Freaks" as well. Let me know your opinions on this--everyone as a whole, so we can at least reach a consensus about the subject.

--Mr. Toto 02:05, 06 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the naming pattern thing is already removed from the articles. Alluka has made an appearance in the manga - there's a shot of the entire Zoaldyeck family about half way through the Ant arc. The second guidebook appearantly lists Alluka, so that's where the name is from.


 * If four children had "r" in their names, and only one had "ll", then "r" would probably seem like the most logical version. The bottom line is, "llu"/"lu"/"rru"/"ru" are all from the same "る/ル" in Jap.


 * Alluka is shown once, from a view of him behind. I've seen this image. However, it fails to list his name in this chapter. Also, is there any citation of his name being verified? I've never heard that his name was in the second guidebook. There's no other sources either.


 * The only reason I bring up the double "l" is because every other one of Kalluto's brothers has it. When Illumi first appeared, fan translations labeled him as "Irumi" until an official spelling came out. It makes complete logical sense that the youngest brother would be named this as well. If every one of Killua's brothers were officially romanized with just the "Ru" in their names, then it would make the most sense to switch it to that. That's all I'm saying. Regardless of popularity, it doesn't make logical sense to have one name to follow a different pattern when it's obviously supposed to be the same.--Mr. Toto 17:22, 06 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Seeing as how other articles are not going by the most popular names" actually, many do. Like Zoro over Zolo for the ONe Piece character. Some don't. I know Naruto tends to use official names. But as i said before, naruto anime is practically mainstream these days. The "official names" are all very popular (regardless of whether they are more popular than the internet versions). This is hardly the case for hxh. -- `/aksha 12:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The difference is that they're not using official translations either. They list the English, Fansubs, and Japanese names, but they do direct translations of the terms listed for every jutsu's main article. A lot of them haven't ever been used before in any context, so popularity isn't as big as an issue. We could do the same thing with "Genei Ryodan" or "Tenkou Tougijou."


 * "Zoro" is used because that's the character's original name, intended by Eiichiro Oda. It has been spelled out in English on numerous accounts the exact same way--never "Zolo." Viz originally translated the name to that, until 4Kids picked up the dub. However, seeing as how they've cancelled production on the One Piece anime, I doubt we'll be seeing those names again any time soon. Especially since the Manga uses original terms as well. --Mr. Toto 17:22, 06 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyone willing to respond to the issue? I would prefer we clear this up as soon as possible.--Mr. Toto 20:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

More Viz names - Volume 13
Volume 13 isn't supposed to be out until Tuesday...but what does Borders know? I'm now going to include characters who are on the Hunter Depot lists, just in case it's needed in the future. I'll add these to the list.

The auction in which Gon and Killua met Mr. Battera in is known as the Southernpiece Auction. It's pretty odd, since they preivously called it the "Southernbees." (Page 76)

Jeitosari <-> Jeitsari (Page 91) Tsezugera <-> Tsezgerra (Page 103) Pourhaato <-> Puhat (Page 159)

Ron Stoppable 06:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it used to be called "southernpiece auction" too. Southernbee? O.o so you mean ViZ started calling it southernbee, then switched to southernpiece aution?-- `/aksha 13:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it was referred to as the "Southernbees Auction" in the preview for when Gon had to pawn his license for it. Then, when they finally made it there, it was called the "Southernpiece Auction." Ron Stoppable 01:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Art.
Togashi can draw REALLY good when he wants to, but durring parts of the tower fights & most of the Chimaera Ant arc, I noticed that he turned in rough draft art; uncleaned, unpolished, & mostly untoned. My guess is either illness, carpul tunnul, or repeat deadline issues. Does he even have assistants? Most mangaka do, but the spontanious back & forth of horrible background art & scribbled drawings to smooth, beautiful landscapes & sharp, detailed character designs would suggest that he works solo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.142 (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No one knows what's really up with him, whether it's illness or laziness, but no, he does not use assistants at all. -Zyrxil (talk) 15:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've heard it's probably his mental health--Shueisha wouldn't accept laziness as an excuse.-Mr. Toto (talk) 15:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well that's just going into the "more crazy" category of rumors, and besides, his own wife did call him lazy. -Zyrxil (talk) 20:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hah, true. Well, Togashi should really look into getting some assistants. Working solo is fine, but he continually has to take hiatuses due to the amount of detail he does himself in each panel. At least he managed to clean up the art for volume releases, and the last 20 chapters haven't had any problems at all. -Mr. Toto (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)