Talk:Il falegname di Livonia

Request move to Il falegname di Livonia

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved; consensus is clear. Antandrus (talk) 13:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Pietro il grande → Il falegname di Livonia – The latter is the primary name which Osborne 1994 and Ashbrook 1982 use for this opera both in their main entries and in their indexes (with no entry under Pietro il grande), and although Weinstock 1963 uses the full name Il Falegname di Livonia, o Pietro il grande, czar delle Russie in his chronological list of operas, he indexes it under Falegname di Livonia, Il and has a cross reference to that index entry from Pietro il grande. The Grove list of works uses the full name like Weinstock. I did not find any librettos or scores at Google Books, Internet Archive, or IMSLP. Opposed to this are two digital recordings, one from Naxos with the title Pietro il grande, czar delle Russie and another on a Dynamic CD with the title Pietro il Grande, kzar delle Russie o sia il falegname di Livonia (Listings at WorldCat}, and the websites (see External links) with librettos (possibly based on the CD booklets?) that have the primary title as Pietro il grande. --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes AGREE: I took a look at my Ashbrook, and he is certainly the acknowledged Donizetti expert. Viva-Verdi (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose - Il Falegname di Livonia, o Pietro il grande, czar delle Russie includes both names, and although I would expect Osborne and Ashbrook to list under the first name, (irrelevant that Philippe Thanh's French book lists under "Pietro"), the thing is, that the Dynamic recording (Opera Today) has pretty well brought this opera back from the dead, which means anyone searching for the article will naturally search "Pietro il grande" - Pietro is more easily recognisable to English speakers than falegname. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As I say it's only a weak oppose In ictu oculi (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. In addition to the scholarly works, contemporary accounts report it premiering in Venice under Il falegname di Livonia], e.g., , . However, note that in the last of these, the contemporary reviews were collated and published by the Accademia Santa Cecilia in 1997 under the heading "Pietro il Grande, Kzar delle Russie [Il falegname di Livonia]". As far as search terms, it really doesn't matter, as long as there are appropriate re-direct pages, it's just as easy to find under either form of the name. Voceditenore (talk) 07:04, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Robert.Allen and Voceditenore. I see that there is already a longstanding redirect at Il falegname di Livonia. --GuillaumeTell 10:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support with modification. This is not such a high profile opera that Donizetti's setting is the obviously default one. Why not adopt the system used by the Italian, French and Spanish WP for this work .. that Il falegname di Livonia leads to a disambigation page (vide fr, it) that not only highlights the common source but lists the multiple settings by Pacini, Donizetti, and Vaccai/Vaccaj. In these three languages, the Donizetti setting then appears under Il falegname di Livonia (Donizetti). Scarabocchio (talk) 09:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: "Il falegname di Livonia (Le Menuisier de Livonie) est le titre de plusieurs opéras inspirés d'une comédie en 3 actes et en prose d'Alexandre Duval, Le Menuisier de Livonie, ou les Illustres voyageurs, représentée à Paris le 9 mars 1805." is useful stuff. Scarabocchio (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's my impression that the French disambig page would not qualify as an English Wikipedia disambiguation page. The main reason is that articles do not exist for these other versions. Every item on a disambig page must link to an existing page which could be similarly titled, i.e., no redlinks are allowed. (Not to mention that there are many other blue links on these pages, which are disallowed on disambig pages here.) The usual practice is that the first article created takes the name, without a qualifier like "(Donizetti)". If a page is created for the Pacini opera, then the Donizetti can be moved to Il falegname di Livonia (Donizetti). (Fortunately, most of the links to this page are via the Donizetti operas template, so changing that will change almost all of them at once.) The preferred practice for diambiguation with just two pages is to use hatnotes. If, or when, a third page is created, then the disambig page would become a possibility. BTW, according to Grove Music, Vaccai's opera is titled Pietro il grande, ossia Un geloso alla tortura, so we won't have a third page with the title Il falegname di Livonia. One option would be to create a page for Vaccai's opera with the title Pietro il grande and a redirect to Donizetti's as Pietro il grande (Donizetti). For now, however, the simplest procedure is to just move the Donizetti opera to Il falegname di Livonia, and when a Pacini page or a Vaccai page is written, we can deal with the diambig problems at that time. --Robert.Allen (talk) 11:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I do see a possibility of a page on the topic as a literary theme. It could be titled The Livonian Carpenter and could discuss the historical episode from the life of Peter the Great and the play Le Bourgesmestre de Sardam, ou Les deux Pierres and all the other works that treat it, such as Pacini's and Vaccai's operas, Donizetti's two operas (including Il borgomastro di Saardam), as well as Lortzing's Zar und Zimmermann. Tom Kaufman, in the review linked by In ictu oculi above, even says "Meyerbeer put his oar in with L'étoile du nord, where Peter and Catherine first fall in love, not surprisingly, the tsar also starts out incognito in this work, in his customary disguise as a carpenter." That would not then be considered a disambig page. If it were created, then the page Il falegname di Livonia could be converted to a redirect to it. Surely we can find a source where someone has written an essay on this topic. [Update: there is also Gretry's 1790 Pierre le Grand.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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