Talk:Ireland

Ireland naming discussions

Per WP:ARCA#Motion: Ireland article names - Required location of move discussions rescinded, discussions on Ireland article names no longer have to take place at WT:IECOLL. In future, they can take place on article talk pages. Scolaire (talk) 13:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

http://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-370100.htm

NB:

Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’. Although this name is found in some documents, it does not have official status. 86.120.171.235 (talk) 05:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Head on island image

Why is there a green head in the first image? Located south of Kintyre and Arran in Scotland, top-right. DankJae 23:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh. My. God!!! Has that really been like that for 10 years?!?!?!? I don't see any edits to the file in that time. Canterbury Tail talk 23:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I put it back to the proper version of that file. It looks like it was vandalised here and no one noticed. Canterbury Tail talk 23:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail, No it was recent, per that edit (probabaly good faith tho), thanks, weirded me out when I noticed that there shouldn't be an island there. DankJae 00:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

It's the image itself that has been on Wikipedia/Commons for 10+ years. It's just odd that the editor in question replaced it on multiple articles, and on multiple wikis. Canterbury Tail talk 11:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah right. DankJae 14:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Nominated the silly version for deletion. The Banner talk 16:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

And it's gone already. Scolaire (talk) 16:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Etymology of "Ireland"

The current Etymology section appears to describe a folk etymology, or at the very least a less popular proposal than the mainstream one, which is that the name of Ireland descends from the Proto-Celtic *ɸīweriyū (meaning "fat/fertile/arable earth"), which is also the origin of the Graeco-Roman "Hibernia", still used as a poetic name for Ireland. I accordingly tried to correct the etymology section, even acommodating the possibility that the name of the goddess Ériu influenced the name of the island, even though all evidence points to it having been the other way around, but my edits were instead reverted under "original research" despite me using reputable dictionaries. The etymology I put forward is the mainstream one and is even cited on the Éire page, so I think this was just a reflexive revert to prevent vandalism, which I completely understand, but still, we should probably change the Etymology section. Pescavelho (talk) 21:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

In my view, dictionaries are not good enough sources for etymology. Do you have other sources that back up your claims? The Banner talk 22:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Dictionaries are tertiary sources, but so are encyclopedias, such as the one cited as the (only) source in the current etymology section. As long as these aforementioned dictionaries cite their sources I don't see the issue. What would you consider "good enough sources for etymology", if not dictionaries, which admitedly, are prone to mistakes and folk etymologies as well? Linguistics papers? Several of those will back the etymology I've provided and I can cite them. Pescavelho (talk) 12:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Pescavelho: You cite two rather obscure sources (Stüber, Karin, The Historical Morphology of n-Stems in Celtic, and Zair, Nicholas, The reflexes of the Proto-Indo-European laryngeals in Celtic) to support your argument; these could hardly be described as "the mainstream". Can you cite something a little more authoritative that corroborates these two, and in particular, that shows that scholarly consensus is that the Ériu origin is plain wrong? The most recent thing you've read is not necessarily the new truth. Scolaire (talk) 11:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

As aforementioned, the Éire page already mentions this etymology, and includes three sources: Koch, John T., Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia; Mallory, J.P. and D.Q. Adams, ed. Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture; and an archive of the University of Wales' Proto-Celtic Lexicon.
I'll flip this question back onto you. Are there any good sources that describe the origin of the island's name coming from the name for the goddess and not the other way around? The current source on this page is from The Encyclopedia of Medieval Literature in Britain, which is a tertiary source. One of the sources said encyclopedia cites, Isaac, G.R. A Note on the Name of Ireland in Irish and Welsh, mentions the etymology I've provided, and while the author then goes on to (not conclusively) suggest it is more likely it comes from a different Proto-Celtic toponym, indeed ultimately derived from PIE *h2uer, it makes no mention of the name of the island being derived from the name of the goddess; in the page for the republic of Ireland, a tourism site is cited, hardly an authoritative figure. Pescavelho (talk) 12:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Usage of British Isles

The term British Isles is not offically recognised in Ireland. It seems that the entire argument to insert this term is due to the common usage in Britain. But it's not used officially or colloquialy in Ireland. It's use internationally (outside the UK) is extremely rare.

The common usage in Ireland is Ireland and Britain or Britain and Ireland to identify the islands.

An example of how the islands of Britain and Ireland are referred to would be in the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement. This is an agreement between both sovereign states which does not mention the term.

A colloquial term, that is seldom used outside of the UK, should not be used to describe Ireland and it's place geographically.

Please remove this British centric, colonial, unoffical, political and insulting term from Wikipedia. Thank you. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:A60E:2E2E:BAA9:AD18 (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Denied. The Banner talk 22:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this request is denied without explanation. This term 'the British Isles' is not accepted in Ireland. It's only sparesly used outside of the UK due to the offense it causes. I question the insistence to feature this prominently in this article and I have to assume it comes from a political viewpoint.

What do you call someone from Scandanavia? Scandanavian. Iberia? Iberian.

What do you call someone from the British Isles. British? Can you not see why this is inaccurate and offensive to Irish people? I can not think of any other region that lays claim to foreign land like this. It's basically like calling Iberia 'The Spanish Peninsula'.

Please remove this outdated and uncommonly used phrase. Thank you. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:69C9:889F:2F4E:273E (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Please read all the talk page discussion about this and present a new case. Canterbury Tail talk 01:03, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I have read the discussion. The above arguments keeps refering to 'common usage'. My point is is that it's not commonly used in Ireland or outside of the UK. The common usage in Ireland (i.e. the island in question) is to refer to the two islands as Britain and Ireland or the UK and Ireland.

It's hard to 'present a new case' when you insist that it is the common term to use 'the British Isles'. The point I'm making is that it is not in common usage outside of a single country (the UK)

Sports teams (e.g. British and Irish Lions), international agreements (e.g. Belfast Agreement), political institutions (e.g. British Irish Council), non-political institutions (e.g. RNLI) do not use the term. Why wouldn't they if it's common usage for a geographic description (in much the same way that Scandanavia or Nordic is used as a geographic (and political) term in all the nordic countries)? I've never seen a commercial institution (e.g. Tesco, McDonalds, etc.) use the term British Isles in Ireland to sell any products. Not once. However, I've seen it used in Britain. My point being why wouldn't Tesco use the term 'British Isles' in Ireland? The answer is that it's not accepted and causes offense.

And of course it's an offensive term. It's describing me as British even though I'm Irish. It's a term popularised after the Act of Union. It's archaic. Ireland is commonly called a 'Home Nation' or the 'Irish Republic' in the UK. Just because some say it doesn't make it correct or an accepted term.

The commonly used term for both islands by people, politically, in institutions, etc. is Britain and Ireland. This is the case across Ireland, the UK, Europe and the world. I don't understand the refusal to recognise the commonly used phrase to describe both islands.

In summary:

1. You say that the British Isles is a commonly used term - I've argued it's not and given concrete examples of insitutions that would use it if it were common.

2. I've given the commonly used term for the group of islands (be it by people, in the media, sports, charities, cross border institutions, etc.): Britain and Ireland, the UK and Ireland. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:D17F:4A17:8A56:847E (talk) 14:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

1. https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2024/0403/1441354-uisceeireann-water/ January 2024
2. https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2024/0319/1438611-coastal-erosion/ March 2024
3. https://nos.nl/artikel/2505776-storm-isha-richt-schade-aan-in-buitenland-code-oranje-voor-nederlandse-kust Dutch, January 2024
4. https://nos.nl/artikel/2509472-weer-discussie-over-tunnel-bij-stonehenge-archeologisch-van-groot-belang Dutch, February 2024
5. https://travel-dealz.de/deal/hal-britische-inseln-kreuzfahrt/ German, 2024

So yes, I have the idea that the term is in actual, recent, Irish and international use. The Banner talk 14:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

2. https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2024/0319/1438611-coastal-erosion/ March 2024

To be pedantic, although publish by RTÉ, this article was about the UK and usage of the term in question was a direct quote from a British person. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

You've come back with some rare examples. If I supply all the examples of the use of Britain and Ireland, would that suffice around the usage in Ireland and internationally to refer to the islands as Britain and Ireland? I can supply recent examples from Ireland, the UK and further afield? I can supply these with sources in media, direct quotes, government statements, geographic references, etc. I can provide a comprehensive list of examples where Britain and Ireland is used instead of the 'British Isles'. Would this list suffice in updating it? This is a key point.

Even the Wiki entry on County Londonderry refers to the fact that it's called County Derry as well, even though officially and historically that county has never been called County Derry. The UK government, the BBC, etc. state that it's County Londonderry. But the article recognises that a large part of Derry itself and most of Ireland don't call the county or city as Londonderry (even though there are examples of it being referred to as Londonderry in southern Ireland and by nationalists).

The Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) stated that the two islands are commonly called “Britain and Ireland”. "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term".

The Ordnance Survey (OS) of Ireland, say that they “have no need to, nor would we use term British Isles”. (Source on both quotes: https://www.thejournal.ie/is-ireland-british-isles-northern-ireland-europe-islands-1140112-Oct2013/):

I can find many articles, books, etc. of how Britain and Ireland are referred to as Britain and Ireland. These examples can be political, commercial or geographic (e.g. forestry, rivers, etc.). A quick example of the type of examples I can provide (and ones which I give that largely avoid reference to the two sovereign states i.e. geographic):

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/26/british-irish-rivers-desperate-state-pollution-report-trust

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rivers-Britain-Ireland-Great-S/dp/0237524821

https://www.janetredlertravelandtourism.co.uk/news/lonely-planet-selects-40-attractions-uk-and-ireland-ultimate-travel-list/

It's actively encouraged to not use the term by the Irish government, by the UK government, by certain media outlets, by the Ordanance Survey of Ireland, etc. The list goes on. As in my previous examples, it's not used by most commercial and inter governmental insitutions. I can't get one example of a commercial/gov instution that refers to Britain and Ireland as the British Isles. But I'm sure they exist.

There are many instances where something is used 'commonly' but it's not accurate e.g. Irish Republic, Home Nations when including Ireland, the British West Indies, Britain being a mainland to Ireland, etc.

The British Isles is inaccurate, unofficial, anglo-centric and an offensive term. Your opinion that it is 'commonly used' breaks down when 'Britain and Ireland' is the most commonly used description. As mentioned, I can back this up with many examples, which can be timeboxed to recent articles, books, quotes, active gov/commercial institutions, etc.

Can this article be updated to reflect this please? 2A02:8084:4241:E200:52AF:C4BE:1FF3:7F76 (talk) 10:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

No need to update as the info is correct. That some people find it offensive can be true but that does not alter the fact that the geographical term is still in common use. Beside that: 1) the Guardian sources is referring to rivers on the island of Ireland and to rivers on the island of Britain. Not to the archipelago; 2) the book does the same. Two islands, not the archipelago; 3) Lonely planet refers to the countries, not the archipelago.

And in a case of original research, I was asking around in my local pub. (Rural, West-Ireland setting) No one found it offensive, in fact, no one was bothered by the use of the term or did care about it. The Banner talk 11:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

On your last point, I asked my friends in a pub and they were bothered by the use of the term and did care about it (Suburban, East-Ireland setting).

We are disputing the fact if it's commonly used and I've given a ream of evidence to state that it's not the most commonly used name. If it was, then its use would be widespread across governments, organisations, media, etc. Why don't the RNLI use the term 'British Isles' when they are effectively a borderless organisation across all islands of Britain and Ireland. And as previously mentioned, the British Irish Council doesn't use it, but that organisation features the local governments from the Channel Islands (the islands off France) and the Isle of Man.

In terms of it being an offensive term - it's not my main argument. Yes, it's offensive to some and not to others. But my main argument is about the correct term and the most common term. For example, Londonderry is offensive to some, but it is also a legally based fact. And I was pointing out that the Wikipedia article refers to the fact that it is also called Derry, with no legal basis. For some reason, the article on Ireland, the most commonly used term when combining the island with Britain and its islands, is not used or accepted by this article.

In terms of the 'correct term'. First, correct to who? I've just stated that the Irish government, British government, many media style guides, and commercial organisations do not use the term and use Britain and Ireland. If British Isles was correct, then they would be using that term. However, it's seldom used. How is it the most common term when rarely used by all these organisations, many of which cover every single consitutional makeup of Britain and Ireland (e.g. RNLI, British Irish Council, Tesco, etc).

The archipelago consists of Britain and Ireland and then some minor islands surrounding both islands. Are the Channel Islands part of the archipelago or part of France? Are the Orkney islands part of the British Isles or their own separate archipelago? The 'correct' term doesn't seem to be able to clarify this with inconsistencies in the definition of what makes up the 'British Isles'. If it's the correct term, then you'd expect a consistent definition. The 'British Isles' is a confusing and inexact definition.

I've addressed each point you've made with hard counter arguments:

Common Use

Extensive evidence from every type of entity that Britain and Ireland is a more commonly used term than 'the British Isles'.

Examples of other wikipedia entries e.g. Londonderry referencing the other commonly known name for the area, Derry. I didn't bring in other geographic arguments like the use of Australasia for the Wikipedia entries for Australia, NZ and New Guinea

Correct Term

I've highlighted the inconsistent definition of 'the British Isles'.

I've highlighted that Irish and UK governments, as well as other organisations spanning both the UK and Ireland don't use and actively insist on not using the term; strange statements to make about the 'correct term'.

I've questioned who states that it is the 'correct term' when so many prominant entities avoid using it or actively say it shouldn't be used.

The Local Pub

Maybe you're buying all the pints? There is a national characteristic, I'm sure not unique to Ireland, to go along with someone even when they're saying something you don't agree with. It's basic manners of not wishing to offend. They may see you as intelligent and will give way to your opinion. I don't know. Alternatively, you could be right and they like/accept the term and have no problem with it. I never said the entire country has an issue with it, only that it is not commonly used and even to say extremely rare. I've never really heard anyone say Londonderry from the south of Ireland but some people wouldn't have an issue with it. Honestly, I've never heard any Irish person call it 'the British Isles', in their own words. That's not to say it never happens. Again, my point is more on common use than offense.

Is there an escalation process for this? I think the arguments I've outlined are correct, reasonable, and evidence based. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:52AF:C4BE:1FF3:7F76 (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The usual escalation process is to provide reliable sources to back up your claims. By now you have come with claims, one source that it is a contentions topic (what we already know) and links to pages that do not back up your claims.

But you can always try Wikipedia:Third opinion. The Banner talk 16:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This statement of yours:

"links to pages that do not back up your claims."

What is it that you're looking for and what can you offer as a counter argument to illustrate the most common usage across all types of institutions. Not oblique references in scientific journals but an illustration of 'common usage'?

I can offer a comprehensive list of political, cultural, non-political organisations and private enterprises that use the term 'Britain and Ireland', rather than 'the British Isles'. I've listed a few off below, without links for now, but easily found. To backup and support the claim of the British Isles being the most common usage, please indicate across political, cultural, sporting, arts, commercial, charities, the common usage of the phrase 'British Isles'. I fail to find any examples beyond some journal articles relating to rivers and forestry. But I'm sure they're out there. I'm arguing of the most common usage.

Backing up 'Britain and Ireland', please find a list put together in a couple of minutes:

POLITICAL

- Government of Ireland official standing - offical statement not to use term

- Good Friday Agreement - no reference to 'British Isles' in an international peace agreement between both countries

- The British Irish Council - no reference to 'British Isles' (and this is the only political grouping between all governments in Britain and Ireland)

- British government use of the term - avoided

CULTURAL

Ordnance Survey of Ireland - official statement not to use term

British and Irish Lions - no reference to 'British Isles', many of Britain and Ireland

Tesco - use of different labelling for beef, etc.

Observer/Guardian - avoid use of term in style guide

Mercury Prize - no reference to 'British Isles'

Booker Prize - no reference to 'British Isles'

NON POLITICAL

- RNLI - one of the few cross border charities

I haven't put the links in but they're obvious and can include them if you wish. The above point is, of course, not comprehensive. But a marker of a clear trend as to the most common term for Britain and Ireland, which is...Britain and Ireland.

I understand there might be some groupthink here and standing your guard from every change argued for in the article. I understand. This group has been batting away this correction for a long time. But even your source for the line in the Ireland article doesn't reference 'the British Isles' i.e.:

"Ireland is the second-largest island of the British Isles, the third-largest in Europe, and the twentieth-largest in the world."

The source from this statement then goes on to state:

81638.1 sq.km. Ireland (Ireland/United Kingdom) 1032 m

Even here, they use the two soverign countries and not a reference to the 'British Isles'. But this is the source you give!

And finally, I've clearly demonstrated that the term 'British Isles' is an ambiguous term that is not geographically precise and is open to misinterpretation of political ownership (as there is no other equivalent geographic grouping as overtly political/controversial as this).

Please be clear in what you're looking for as evidence of 'common usage'. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:BED1:7611:C7A0:D130 (talk) 22:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Good jaysus. With all due respect, IP, you're not going to win hearts and minds by posting walls of text. Especially when what you're posting is pretty much exactly what's been posted on this page, the British Isles page, the Terminology of the British Isles page, and probably a couple of others, going back well over 15 years. We have heard all of these arguments, and they've been rejected. Including by Irish people, living in Ireland. As to "There is a national characteristic, I'm sure not unique to Ireland, to go along with someone even when they're saying something you don't agree with. It's basic manners of not wishing to offend," I'm guessing you've not been to too many Irish pubs... Look, it's a term, it's in use, maybe less common than it once was, most people don't give a rat's ass about it, a small minority really object to it, and many of the ones who do, bizarrely, tend to be wearing British football jerseys while giving out about it. Please - WP:DROPTHESTICK and back away from the dead horse... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

No need to tar me with a group who tend to be wearing British football jerseys. Not my scene at all thanks. But it speaks volumes on your attitude in rejecting my argument - indicate any hint of being anti-colonial or from a non-anglo/British viewpoint, then you're tared as being unintelligent, backward or in this case a soccer hooligan. I get it.

And I didn't try and win hearts and minds. I've layed out clear examples of the common usage of the term 'Britain and Ireland' over 'British Isles' across Ireland and the UK. In response I get voxpops in pubs and 'most' people don't care arguments in response.

In regards to the national characteristic argument. Forgive me. One of the arguments against changing it was that the poster had asked his friends in the pub. I was trying to counter that strange argument. But I guess my argument was more foolish.

But I get why it's rejected; I've read through many of the previous posts on this. There's a colonial mindset in both Ireland and directed at Ireland, that still persists today in maintaining that Ireland is a British land. An inferiority complex within and directed at a nation. Fair enough... according to Wikipedia and the smart blokes managing the board, I'm from one of the British Isles, and therefore I'm British.

I'll back away. 2A02:8084:4241:E200:A3B:D4D3:6FDF:6B40 (talk) 14:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nah. You're just a... person who doesn't like the term "British Isles". Whatevs. That doesn't make you British; nobody suggested that, nobody believes that, and maybe leave the chip off your martyred shoulder. Likewise, nor does it make anyone else a West Brit for recognising that the term is still widely used - cherry-picked examples from... *checks notes*... a supermarket, a music industry award website, and a publishing website notwithstanding. 🙄 Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

bad article, connor mcgreror isnt mentioned

McGregor is arguably one of the most well known irish people 81.209.26.4 (talk) 07:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

No need to mention him in an article about the island. The Banner talk 07:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Or, indeed, ever. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)