Talk:Irish Travellers/Archive 1

Contribution
Is it not worthy of note that despite the sites provided (and indeed demanded by the Gypsy Council) to Travellers, there is often no monetary contribution to these sites by the Traveller community? Davetibbs 10:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

MOST RECENT NPOV DISCUSSION: More Criticism Required
Irish Travellers do indeed have a terrible reputation in Britain and as a result suffer much racism in schools: overtly from other children and covertly from teaching and other staff. They speak English with a distinctive accent so cannot pass unnoticed. It appears that Irish Traveller culture may be different from mainstream British school culture in the way that children and adults interact. This can lead to trouble with school staff for 'answering back' (i.e. not accepting what an adult says regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of the statement) and for 'attitude'. These children respond well to being treated with respect and spoken to in an adult manner.


 * I'd need a citation for that, please unless it is purely conjecture? I know of various cases (including Dale Farm) where council taxes are paid when travellers are allowed to settle, but none where they do not pay (bearing in mind that due to their background, they are usually under a great deal of scrutiny from local councils, it would be difficult for them to do otherwise) unless specifically barred from doing so by the council. In most cases, if travellers are 'on the road', they are physically unable to qualify for benefits or schooling, hospitals etc, as they do not have a fixed place of abode. There have been submissions to the (ex) ODPM from traveller groups on this very subject I believe.

That's a kind of demagogy - only people, who pay taxes are eligible for being treated as humans? Following what you said, the answer is "yes"... Just to clarify - I am foreigner, who lives in the UK, my English has a "distinctive" accent and I pay more taxes than an average native British.

I find the neutrality of part of this entry somewhat suspect, especially and I quote "Government persecution and criminalisation of Traveller lifestyle..." Thoughts? 82.41.28.10 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As the poster of the original NPOV comment, I agree. 83.146.55.85 00:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition, could I just add on the 'taxes' debate that students also do not pay taxes - so to discriminate against a group simply on the basis of paying taxes is ridiculous. And proves the point!! User:Ilikeyourdorkiness 13.34, 17th July 2006 (UTC)
 * Students may not generally pay taxes, but their parents almost always do, thus supporting the cost of their children's educations.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Travellers pay taxes. However the only controversy I find is that do travellers have the right to use land wherever they go? They pay taxes just like anyone else. I pay taxes and I can't use a cycle lane because the land has been taken over my travellers. Making it difficult to get home everyday. Are all travellers like this? It's not clear in the article. Falc 18:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's hard to see where to actually comment on this page! The article is an interesting read but seems to lose focus on Irish Travellers themselves, heading off into all sorts of territory that is applicable to the travelling community as a whole. Not only that, but it is written from quite a biased pov (IMHO), providing lots of unsupported commentary and little balance.


 * The article itself is a mess, with headings all over the place in differing sizes, to me it looks more like a discussion page. I think at least half of the article could be removed and more focus placed on the subject matter of 'Irish Travellers', without that it may as well be deleted. Stephenjh 04:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Stephenjh, as you probably saw, I attempted a bit of a clean-up on this article (as I noticed you have too). The article is still a bit of a mess though...Downunda 22:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks. I think it looks a lot better and speaks more to Irish Travellers now, it's an ongoing situation. What we need now are some images. Stephenjh 09:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously more critisism required, Travellers are Generally bad people that intimidate, Assault and most of the time rob other people. I say generally because I live in an Irish city and know travellers. And I know one who isn't a scumbag..the rest are..If you're not from an Irish city than you really cant say anything about knackers because what would you know. The men are scumbags, the women are disgraceful whores. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John120291 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh good, well now that someone who 'knows travellers' has arrived, we can all pack up and go home! I know travellers on Dale Farm, and they have been generous and welcoming to me, despite being under enormous strain because of the eviction attempts of Basildon council. If you know a load of nasty people, that says more about you than the traveller population, tbh.

(Artificial Heading)
$500,000 for a dowry? obviously false for a people who make their living doing odd jobs and home repair. I'd like to see where that figure came from.
 * Possibly the figure may be over the top but dowries are known to be quite substantial: See here SeanMack 08:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Article originally spoke of a "nomadic people", but I think that's misleading.

Also, the article seems to be mostly a summary of the advocacy website. It needs a bit of balance.

Also, the claim that Travellers are "distinct" needs some more explanation. How are they different from other Irish, aside from their desire to move about rather than remain settled?

--Ed Poor


 * They are distinct in look (a product of dietary limitations and its impact on body shape, skin quality, overall health, etc), in social characteristics (large families, high rate of inter-marriage and early death), in speech mannerisms (whereas most people in Ireland have a dialect based on physical location, their community has a set of speech mannerisms unique to it, with its own language and indeed distinctive usage of english), in educational experience (because of the constant degree of travel, traveller children spent less time in one set school and so generally have a lower rate of educational attainment, often missing much of the school year as they travel around the country. Most Traveller children leave school between 12 and 15 years of age). FearÉIREANN

The name "Irish Traveller" is well-established for these people. They are not a movement -- they are a people, with a clearly defined culture. The Irish Travellers' Movement, on the other hand is a political pressure group that tries to push for recognition of the rights of the Irish Travellers.


 * Please provide evidence for the distinctness of this "people". I am adding sources for some of the claims you have made.


 * Also, I will try to reduce the redundancy between the traveller and traveller movement articles. --Ed Poor

This is an interesting topic, and I thank the anonymous contributor who began the article. I was initially confused about the "movement" vs. the people, but apparently the ITM is an umbrella organization advocating on behalf of Travellers. --Ed Poor

You're welcome. -- Anon.

From traveller:

Traveller can also refer to people of Ireland (and their decendants in Great Britain and the United States) who have no fixed place of residence and who, in decades past, were often travelling tinsmiths. There is no exact estimate of the number of travellers, but they do number in the tens of thousands.

Links:
 * The Irish Traveller Movement

-

I'm no linguist, but the use of the word 'jargon' in the following sentence seems incorrect..."The Shelta language is the traditional language of the Irish Travellers, adapted as a jargon from the Irish language." 'Dialect' or 'dervative', maybe? ike9898 14:21, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * Shelta is a cant, not a jargon or dialect, and is an admixture of Irish and English vocabulary mangled similarly to verlan, with a grammar largely derived from English. --Kgaughan 22:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

- Dr Alice Binchy, an Irish socio-linguist, suggests that more than half the surviving Cant/Gammon lexicon may be derived from a long-lost language spoken in Ireland before the Celts arrived.

Pavee awareness
Knowledge of the Irish traveller culture only evolves with its own self-awareness. In recent years a number of organizations have worked to consolidate information of its movements and demographics, as well as educate those too often found on the far fringes of British and Irish society. It is now widely understood that there are as many Irish travellers in Britain as there are in Ireland, numbering about 75,000 throughout the isles, as well as small communities in Germany and the United States. The travellers in Britain are often referred to as Didecoit and speak a variant form of Gammon. The term Pavee is the latest in a line of politically-correct classifications.

Irish Rovers?
Does the name of the musical group "The Irish Rovers" derive from this group at all? Is that another alternative term? In my family, I'm pretty sure that the near-legendary (within the family, anyway) dealings my great-grandfather supposedly had with "Gypsies" were likely with this group rather than actual Romany, although that's mostly guesswork. Legendarily, a community of them which travelled the Upper South and Lower Midwest of the U.S. had a cemetary near Nashville, where they annually returned in the spring and buried their dead, preserving the bodies until they arrived.

Rlquall 13:49, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of any connection between the Irish Rovers and the Travellers. As far as Travellers being found in the U.S., that's absolutely true, and those are prime locations where they live.  I've never heard a single thing about preserving bodies for up to a year, and I imagine that's part of the anti-Travellers folklore. Beginning 17:05, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * We (Irish Travellers) are often refered to as "gypsies" by other people, and my family even alls ourself that. But we are not, in any way, related to Roma gypsies.  Also, despite claims to the countrary, I've seen genetic test performed that confirmed "Irish Travellers" are in fact most closesly related to other Irish people, and we are not some exiled transients from someplace else.  Unfortunately, I don't know a link to the data.  Maybe someone should look into that.  134.88.147.73 17:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Would have imagined that the Irish Rovers name came from the title of a song.

From Elgog Oct. 21, 2007 The Irish Rovers sang a song called "Bare Legged Boy" about the "Tinker Band" and what an idillic life they lived. The song also says they are very intelligent about life with nature. The singer is obviously pining for the simple life.

Terms for travellers
The common term "itinerant" is not mentioned. I had assumed this to be a bad attempt at PC, which usually gives more offense than the more direct "travellers". Is this correct?

zoney &#09827; talk 16:31, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree, "itinerant", and also "Pavee" or the abbreviation "Pav" should also be added somewhere in it, but I don't know where exactly would be suitable, especially since "Pavee" is supposed to be PC... --Zilog Jones 19:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi - new user and all that so please be gentle with me as I am being bold...... I have worked with people from Romany Gypsy and Irish Traveller heritages and I find the PC comment confusing - surely it would be best to refer to people from travelling communities by the name they prefer instead of becoming distracted by what is PC or not PC? Just a thought and I hope a constructive one. I can only suggest what people from these communities have told me - Gypsy and Irish (Scottish, Welsh etc) Traveller being generally acceptable as labels (in the UK at least) - although not perfect as both these terms have been imposed on them by people from outside but are widely known in the non - nomadic communty and an acknowledgement of Romany and Pavee as being terms which are actually part of their own language and culture. Itinerant is also not particularly useful as it does not describe the many thousands of people from the Gypsy and Traveller communites who have, through one reason and another settled into permanent accomodation including bricks and mortar but still retain their cultural heritage and ethnic status. Although the dictionary defintion may describe those who are still travelling it has been used historically as a derogatory term so is viewed with some distaste - I hope this helps and I am interested in any thoughts - particularly from those who are Romany or Pavee. 84.64.75.43 19:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)ophelia Italic text

While I have no problem with a section clarifying the various names given to Travellers, I don't think it's correct to put some of these outdated and in some cases offensive names in the original paragraph. To some, the "k" word has now evolved to be as derogatory as the "n" word - and quite rightly, you wouldn't find an article on African-Americans, for example, which automatically and immediately references that word. 83.141.105.140 06:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree and to this end I have deleted the following sentence for discussion: They are also often referred to as 'gypsies', 'pikeys', 'tinkers', 'minks' or 'knackers' but these names are now considered to be offensive, and in the case of gypsy are technically incorrect, as that word more specifically refers to another travelling community, the Roma, who originated in [[India ophelia

There's a barrier here, with historic vs modern uses. While Gypsy is rooted in Gyption/Egyptian, in modern British English it's interchangable with 'traveller' to encompass Rom, Irish and New Age travellers (within the UK, atleast); to the extent where I've (personally) known New Age travellers to referr to themselves as Gypsy, whereas Rom stick to Rom / (phonetically) Romni. However, I do believe 'gyppo' and 'gypolata' have no place here, any more than I'd expect Chinese_people to reference 'chinks'. Shaun 06:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

"Gypsy" has been used interchangably with "traveller" in the media. That doesn't make it correct. Calling a Pavee "Gypsy" is akin to calling an Indian the "P" word (shortened and offensive form of "Pakistani"). It's offensive in this usage. I've edited the "Cultural Suspicion and Conflict" section to reflect this. I've also removed the reference to Travellers calling non-travellers Gorgios or Gadgios. Both terms are Romanes (romany language) and don't really belong in this entry. Moreover, the distinction between the two is regional rather than one being more offensive than the other. A suitable reference would be Manfri Frederick Wood's "In the Life of a Romany Gypsy" (1973), Routledge and K. Paul.--143.234.96.9 10:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've also removed the reference to Henry VIII ordering Irish Travellers out of the country in 1530. The act in question, The Egyptians Act 1530, was aimed at removing Romany travellers from the country. This act banned Romanies from entering England, and gave 16 days (not 40) to leave or risk imprisonment and forfeiture of possessions. This was ammended by the Egyptians Act 1554, which upped the penalty to death if Roma didn't leave within a month. The 1562 Egyptians Act added "counterfeit Egyptians", those who travelled or lived like Gypsies, which probably would include Irish Travellers. --143.234.96.9 10:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Travelers are related to "the Terrible Williamsons" in the U.S. or at least there's some overlap according to local media (I'm near Washington DC). I didn't find a ref to the "Williamsons" in wikipedia and don't have sources that allow a substantive update.

I would have serious issues with the way in which the word "itinerant" is being used in this article. "Itinerent" is considered derogetory. If you are going to remove terms like Pikey, then you need to remove the word itinerant also. squid

I think Itinerant should be at least mentioned. The word itinerant may be considered derogatory by travellers themselves but in my experience (as an Irish person)it is not used with this intention (unlike other words eg. knacker and pikey, which are intentionally offensive) When not applied to the travelling community it simply means someone who travels/moves around so i dont see why it would be considered offensive. The words knacker and tinker originate from jobs traditionally associated with Travellers and have only come to be seen as negative because of negative views of the Travelling Community among non-Travellers I was always given the impression that itinerant was originally introduced as a PC alternative to Tinker, only to be replaced by the word Traveller a few years later - is this untrue? Also, on another note. If the word Knacker is mentioned, should there not be some reference to the fact that many people in ireland (certainly among my friends) use this word far more commonly to denote a certain social class (chavs) or as an alternative to the word scumbag. Obviously it is still frequently used with reference to Travellers, but it's meaning has evolved. Finally, I don't remember ever hearing the word Pikey used in Ireland before the film Snatch - is it a purely english term?81.62.174.81 (talk) 21:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

What scam?
"Recently, certain highly-publicised scams, such as on the Discovery Channel, perpetrated by Irish Travellers..." What Discovery Channel scam is this? I couldn't find any reference to it. --Cholling 13:45, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let me reiterate this user's question. I also cannot find any reference to the Discovery Channel scam elsewhere nor has any further explanation been offered on this page. Someone please enlighten us! anonymous user, June 22, 2005.

"Tinker" redirects to "Gypsy Vanner horse"
Silly Americans ^_^ Someone should do something about this. Maybe a specific page on actual tinkers (travellers who make tin products) should be made, or it should be redirected here?

I think someone should give explanations of the real meanings of tinker and knacker - I can't think of a suitable way of describing them. --Zilog Jones 19:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tinker came from itinerants who made a trade fixing/repairing any metal household goods of the area's they travelled through(my grandmother and even my mother had first hand dealings with these type, generally honest but roguish, and not particularly unwelcome or disliked)

Knacker had something to do with those who made a living dragging off old horses to the "Knackers Yard" where they took them to be slaughtered(meat/glue/tallow/oil) (Note: none of this is from encyclopedia's or whatnot, just from first hand accounts) -Bastion 09:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

TInker was explained to me in my youth by my Irish parents as coming from itinerants who worked with tin (such as the production of tin mugs).82.47.206.8 00:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Francie Barrett
Can anyone add anything about Francie Barrett the boxer? I think it would be a good addition but I can'y say I know anything about him. If no-one does, I'll mebbe do the google search and put something in.... SeanMack 16:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Language
Travellers have their own form of slang/language called Camp (I'm not making this up). Also some clans of travellers are known by the family name. For example near Darndale in Dublin some years ago were called "Chuckies". reference

Isnt the language known as the "cant" as opposed to camp.?

According to http://www.bslcp.com/vol04/intro.htm it's 'Cant', angilcised version of the Irish word 'caint' meaning talk. -- Liam 195.7.54.2 11:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Irish Traveller Origins
We really need to do something about the origns of the travellers, why they are different, speck their own language, and what led to them being so in the first place. Also, a lot more needs to be said on the surnames of them in each province, and why just a handful of surname are used. Fergananim 00:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I have added to the External Links two books, by the Gmelches, who have written detailed books that may be able to answer these questions. I have not read the books, but how the Gmelches work has not previous appeared on this page so far as I can tell escapes me. --SafeLibraries 04:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Unclear sentence
They are close-knit and in general are poorly educated, leading to much racism and bigotry due to ignorance.

Racism against them, or by them? I don't know so I won't edit, but someone who does know might want to tighten up the sentence.


 * I read that as a claim that racism is directed against them, which raises another problem: they're a separate race? Says who?Benami 23:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Racism, in the UK at least, is essentially defined by the Race Relations Act 1976. It's essentially discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin.


 * The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that: "[Race] is today primarily a sociological designation, identifying a class sharing some outward physical characteristics and some commonalities of culture and history." Brittanica also defines "Ethnic Group" as a "Social group or category of the population that, in a larger society, is set apart and bound together by common ties of language, nationality, or culture."


 * For our purposes the Pavee are probably a "race" and certainly an "ethnic group". Discrimination against them would be considered racism.

--81.129.48.16 20:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As long as whoever treats them wrong believe they are a separate race, then it's racism, 'cause they're treated differently on the basis of (supposed) race. Anon.

It should be clearly stated here that the academic community refutes the claim that any member of the human race is of a different "race" than another. Biologists soundly opposes the idea that race exists on a genetic level. It is a sociological and psychological creation by society to divide its members. User: Bryanne, 16 June 2006, 14:26. (UTC)

"The academic community"? All they all one homogenous bloc? I think not. If race is all a conspiracy then how do you account for lactose intolerance variations, sickle cell anaemia, idiopathic torsion dystonia, haemochromatosis, Mongolian Spots? When these occur in a group outside of the condition's normal prevalent group they can usually be traced back to intermarriage in an earlier generation.

A more apposite interjection might have been "sociologists soundly oppose the idea that race exists on a genetic level." Hopefully you won't ask a sociologist to provide your medical care.

194.46.166.36 13:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * S ... what an academic says 'race' means, doesn't affect whether people picking on them cause they're different is 'racism', since such people would clearly be using a different definition of the word. But if this is a problem, just use the word 'discrimination' instead Indigenius 02:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not unwarranted "political correctness" but neutrality as consistent with Wikipedia's policy. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not the place to collect anecdotes about ethnic groups.  --CKozeluh 19:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

i have met many Travellers - one is teaching assitant at primary school and another is a probation officer to name but two - there is also a Traveller who is the mayor of a town on Ireland and the last person to win Pop Idol in the UK is a Traveller - sometimes it is only the bad parts we see - there are many Travellers amongst us who we don't even realsie are Travellers - and they don't tell us because they are concerned about the reception they may get if they were 'outed' -  I don't think it is a case of PC gone mad - I think it is a case of the reality that there are criminals in the Irish Travelling communities but also in the non-Irish Travelling communities (my nearest town centre is full of alcohol related violence on a Friday and Saturday night).In the same way they are decent people n my community and also in the Irish Travelling community. Why don't we see the decent Irish Travellers? Because generally we don't even know who they are .As long as we continue to pidgeon hole people and say 'they are all the same' then we are in danger of losing our commonsense and erroneously claiming a moral high ground - which to be honest as the majority of people who commit crime are from the settled non - Irish Travelling communities we really can't claim it without hypocrisy.


 * thats exactly the issue, all those people you listed have given up the traveler life style! They are travelers in name alone with nothing to link them to that group other than thier heritage. The Travelers are not genetically unique from the people of the lands from wich they descend.  Thier life style is inherently in oposition to the law, taking advantage of others. Its like your trying to defend the Crips by saying, "well some of them end up having respectable jobs".  Get a grip no one is saying that white people from ireland are evil, were saying that the group known as the travelers holds and teaches values that cause them to neglect and even out right break the law.

All experiences above by the Wikipedeans are abosultely no doubt true and it shows the diversity which belongs to every community Ophelia105 19:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Article badly needs citing of sources
I added a factual accuracy tag to one section, mainly because the article itself says, "Information comes from an interview with an Irish Traveller in the United States." Please see No original research.

In general the article badly needs citations and sources. Tempshill 16:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is absolutely chock full of half-truths and absurdities.

For example, Irish Travellers are a recognised ethnic group under the UK's Race Relations legislation (which makes arguments about their ethnic status a moot point if they are recognised under the law).

The Irish Traveller language is also called "Cant", for information

Also, most alarmingly, the original article states that the word "Gypsy" is an insult. On the contrary, English Gypsies proudly call themselves such, there are enough insulting words bandied about in regard to this group, and "Gypsy" is not one of them.

There is useful information from both the British and Irish Government's on the misunderstood ethnic English Gypsies and Irish Travellers, with a great number of official reports available, including official figures on the size and location of the caravan-dwelling population. I will list the relevant websites when I have some time...

I suspect that this article has been written by someone in the USA who has little to no real knowledge of the communities in the Republic of Ireland or Great Britain... unfortunate

Marriage Customs
Newbie here, I'm being bold and rewriting a good chunk of the line:

Some of the marriage customs, at least in the Southern Travellers (Memphis and "Georgies"), allow for 18 year old girls to be engaged to be married to 18+ year old men. Weddings occur as young as 18 or 18, often to a Traveller. Because in Traveller culture men are the ones who provide for the wife and family, a girl's main goal is to marry.

In it's current form, most the statement is unclear at best, bordering on nonsense. Shaun 06:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Similar culture in Scotland
As a newbie non-traveller myself, although a historian of Scottish Highland Gaelic culture. I was surprised to find that the Scottish version of the Irish Traveller, that may have similar origins.

Quote from the web site bellow;

"The Scottish Highland traveler is a tribe distinct from the settled population. They are known in Scottish Gaelic as Ceardannan (the craftsmen, or 'Black Tinkers'), or poetically as 'the Summer Walkers'. Scottish Highland Travelers have therefore been an integral, yet distinct part of Scotland's culture, society and economy for centuries. Scholars believe that genetic and historic links with Highland Travellers are more likely to be found among Scandinavian Lapps, northern Siberians and Canadian Inuit.”

They speak a language called in Gaelic 'Beurla Reagaird' or 'cover-tongue' in English. It was used, just as Gypsies used the Romany tongue, as a way of keeping their business secret from strangers. Beurla Reagaird is a non-Romany language used among Gaelic speaking Highland Travellers and described as a pidgin-Gaelic cant similar to the Shelta of the Irish Travellers.”

It’s interesting to see in Scotland that a similar culture to the Irish traveller has evolved either from the same root or from the same conditioning from Gaelic society. This just shows that through the centuries both Scottish and Irish cultures are very similar right down to their indigenous ethnic minorities. This could also be an indication to the origins of the Irish/Scottish traveller as an indigenous peoples, or a similar use of the Gaelic language to construct a cant language. Although these peoples may have inter married or even be pre-celtic.

For more information on this check out this link; http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/sub_section.jsp?SectionID=6&currentId=199

The Scots orignally came from Ireland, so I don't think that it is too suprising that they would be similar. Mhocker 01:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree but just one point. Only the Dalriadic Scots came from Ireland, the rest can be thought of as Viking, Pictish, Brythonic, Dane and Norman, Germanic and to a lesser extent even a small Romany population from the continent and the north of England have existed in Scotland. All these cultures have impacted on the history and culture of the nation. Although it is interesting to see how similar the Highland traveller is similar to the Irish Pavee traveller, perhaps this is indicative of the indigenous traveller populations in the more traditional Gaelic speaking areas of both nations and how similar they are. Well from a social perspective at least.

Irish situation
There doesn't seem to be much mention of the current situation and arrangements in Ireland itself, such as "halting sites" and what responsibilities County Councils have, and the Irish laws on trespass, temporary residence on public/private land, etc.

zoney &#09827; talk 13:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC) I agree with your comments. I must admit this article is mostly full of poor opinion and ill informed attitude. I feel that the travellers case in Ireland is a valid one and one that needs support. But it is a subject of much contradiction and debate, I am sure many Irish people will relate the story of the poor traveller with a biscuit tin full of cash buying a new car, which undoubtedly happens but what of the the poor traveller families who cannot break through to 'settled' life. As a young man growing up in Tallaght I had at first hand witnessed the Tallaght by-pass riots of the early 80's where families of travellers had encamped along the hard shoulder of the Tallagt by-pass, a place which saw people live on the roadside with no access to fresh water. I witnessed mobs of locals and police trying to evict these people, I saw Nuns carying anti-facist anti-nazi banners trying to defend the rights of the encamped. I saw a councillor rally the locals into a frenzy to violently evict these people and this man became selected as a labour candidate (socialist, can you believe it?) councillor and TD (memeber of Parliament).

What this page needs is a full cultural and social history written from the point of view of the traveller community that is willing to take comment from the 'settled'community. And debate on the status, rights and future of the travelling community should ensue.

Is mise le meas

Damian O'Driochead


 * That allegation of yours regarding the alleged actions of a local councillor is potentially libellous. Wikipedia should not be abused in such a way. If you have evidence to support your claim, please produce it. Otherwise, please remove your allegation. I removed it earlier, but it was quickly reverted by User:Lotsofissues and my accompanying comment deleted. 83.71.58.166 18:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the name of the person which I guess is the libel you mentioned, but I stand 100% by what I say I am currently in contact with RTE archive and hopefully I will be able to present proof.

German Wikipedia
The German version claims that Pavees are sociologically related to Middle European Jenische (Yeniche_%28people%29) and Spanish Quinqui. According to this article, the language of the Jenish (200.000 in Germany, 50.000 Switzerland etc.) can be considered celtic; they form an interesting culture quite different and unknown. For example, they don't relate so much to clans or families but rather rely on their own, adopting to an unstable world like water to the ground.

There are some 50 Jewish words in their language which may have been adopted in past centuries by Jewish travellers who had no right to stay in ghettos and thus had some loose contact to them. Switzerland had a program from the 1920ies well to the 1970ies ([children_of_the_road) where they tried to break up their structure by taking their children away and "selling" them to local people. Meanwhile indigeous literature, movies and even academic investigations exist (lots of links at given location).

Although there is no official statement with respect to this genocide, Jenische now have the status of a national minority in Switzerland and of a Volksgruppe (people) in Austria. Famous members include, according to the German Wikipedia, Marx Brothers, denoted wrongly (?) as Jewish by the English Wikipedia Marx Brothers.

--WernerPopken 09:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"Gypsy" is not offensive to gypsies
I am asking for a citation for this, since I do not believe this is correct - certainly not universally correct, since the council of traveller groups in the UK calls themselves the "Gypsy Council". - PocklingtonDan 07:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I am of Romany descent (Romanichal/Kale). I can assure you that the majority of Romanies find the term offensive, but it is the case that gorjas (non-Roma) call us that, hence the term is sometimes used when dealing with the general public. It's even more offensive when it, and related pejorative terms, are used to describe non-Romany travellers, including Irish Travellers. Such use leads to the problems we've had with the Sun's "Stamp on the Camps" campaign and their "war" on the "Gipsy [sic] Free For All" and such like. It's a racial term and misusing it to imply an adopted lifestyle makes it seem okay to use negatively, when such use is, in fact, racist. --86.147.59.181 23:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm a Settled person, and I find the term "gorja" offensive and racist. 89.125.136.243 (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

SOME FACTS on Tinkers, I work with several large DNA projects doing research on Irish and Scottish families using Y chromosome DNA testing. I will tell you the Travellers families that have tested to date, be they Irish or Scottish ones, are just run of the mill R1b1c type Gael in ancestry. They are Gaels in other words. Also, they do pop up in Medieval lit, so do date back at least to the 1300s. An anecdote... I grew up in north Louisiana, and remember a Traveller community setting up camp in a certain area outside of our town, it was fascinating going by the camp. I am a Gaelic speaker, and I once was approached by a young Traveller in Mississippi, he spoke Irish to me. I assume he also knew Cant. There is also a group of Scottish origin Travellers here in the US South, I know them to be in the Mid South and Ozarks, they tend to be more into horses that 'home repair.' There was a small group of Scottish Travellers sent to the Colonies circa 1700, I eyeballed the primary document on that one.

They are grand people, but do have ways, so use common sense.

Mr Tweedy

Income
I'm going to try my best to keep this neutral but its an issue that I believe key to acceptance or otherwise of Irish Travellers, that being, where do they get their money? Now, I used to work in a cinema which was frequented by local nIrish Travellers and my mother's shop is frequented by them too. One thing you can't help but notice is that they obviously aren't living a simple life. They invariably have shiny new 4x4s (the common sense answer would be for the torque and ability to drive through fields, though keep in mind the shiny) and always whip out a big roll of cash to pay for anything (rumour has it that they can't count so have to pay with larger notes to be safe). So, with this in mind you can understand if people are sceptical about things like their paying taxes or being incapable of finding decent work due to the industrial revolution and improper education due to the constant travelling. There's plenty more to be said but I'm no sociologist so it may well verge on the racist without any proper sources.--Shadebug 19:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm Irish traveller on my father's side. I have scores of relatives. (My father was one of thirteen) I cannot think of one having a 4x4.

Shadebug's comments are offensive.

"They invariably have shiny new 4x4s (the common sense answer would be for the torque and ability to drive through fields, though keep in mind the shiny) and always whip out a big roll of cash to pay for anything (rumour has it that they can't count so have to pay with larger notes to be safe). So, with this in mind you can understand if people are sceptical about things like their paying taxes or being incapable of finding decent work "

Well, Shadebug bases this analysis on this comment

'''I used to work in a cinema which was frequented by local nIrish Travellers and my mother's shop is frequented by them too. One thing you can't help but notice is that they obviously aren't living a simple life. They invariably have shiny new 4x4s (the common sense answer would be for the torque and ability to drive through fields, though keep in mind the shiny) and always whip out a big roll of cash to pay for anything (rumour has it that they can't count so have to pay with larger notes to be safe).'''

Ok - I will say this. I work in shops. I have Jews/Asians/black people/Albanians etc. driving expensive cars and splashing the cash. Now that would sound racist/anti-semetic etc.

Oh by the way, love this quote.

'[A]lways whip out a big roll of cash to pay for anything (rumour has it that they can't count so have to pay with larger notes to be safe' 

A claim about the educational abilities of travellers. Again, I would love them to whip out money when I meet them! It's only rarely so!

I'm curious - obviously Shadebug has his prejudices - if an Englishman was driving a 4x4, had loads of cash and wasn't paying tax (Shadebug claims they don't pay tax - or at least he transfers this thought to others ...you can understand if people are sceptical about things like their paying taxes  - would he be complaining? Teesside dazza 04:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

ethnic status
I thought Irish Travellers were recognised as an ethnic minority in England and Wales in August 2000 (O'Leary v Allied Domecq)TEWO 09:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

++ The feelings amoung the community ++ I would believe that the general feeling towards the travelling community is of dislike and suspicion. There are serious issues with public behaviour/mannerisms, violence and general lawlessness within their community. Also many travellers pay little or no tax because the incidence of travellers claiming welfare/ "the dole" is high and as stated aboves travellers have been known pay cash for brand new vehicles. travellers account for 10% of the irish jail poulation while only accounting for 1 % of the total population. Many travellers need to develop social skills for interacting with the general public.


 * Do be careful with using prison statistics as proof of anything. They have to be used in relation to arrest statistics so as to remove the potential for discrimination in a police force--Shadebug 19:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Criminal activities
The following two paragraphs were removed, I believe, unjustly:

"Tourists are warned to be wary of gypsies. Gypsies often train their children as pickpockets and send them after tourists. The gypsy children will run up to unsuspecting tourists in a friendly manner only to steal their money. Most travel agencies recommend that gypsy children always be kept at an arms length and physically pushed away if necessary.

Doing business with gypsies is not recommended. They often scam those who do business with them which is how the term "gyped" came about. A modern day scam gypsies are known for is to offer to repave a driveway for a reasonable price. As soon as the gypsy receives a down payment, the gypsy will disappear with the money and without doing any of the promised work. If you must do business with a gypsy it is advised to be very cautious and always demand work be done before issuing any payment."

No one can deny that Irish travellers have a generally awful reputation and by near consensus are disproportionately involved in scams and crime - that's why there is a criminal activities section. I think the two aforementioned paragraphs are worthwhile because the "criminal activities" section doesn't give the reader a 'flavor' of the sort of criminal activities Irish travellers are often accused of. Now I can understand that some people would like to be PC and gloss over this, but accuracy is more important than being PC. Further, by giving the reader two examples of the kind of crimes travellers are often accused of, the readers knowledge is being enriched. I believe that these two examples actually reflect favorably on the traveller community. By simply alluding to accusations that travellers commit crimes in the "criminal activities" section, it allows the readers minds to run wild - are they committing murders, rapes, brutal muggings?!? By adding those two paragraphs it gives the reader the flavor of what travellers are generally accused of - which is comparatively minor crimes such as theft - and not more heinous crimes. Giving the reader an idea of the kind of scams and crimes travellers are accused of is entirely appropriate. Just like it's appropriate under the Saddam Hussein wiki page to explain what he did to the Kurds when genocide and war crimes are mentioned, it is appropriate here to mention pickpocketing and fraud when scams are mentioned. If someone wants to "soften" the language by inserting text that makes clear not all travellers participate in such acts, I have no problem with that. But I think the two deleted paragraphs are both accurate, fair and valuable to the reader. Out of respect for other editors I won't reinsert the paragraphs until we have a discussion and can reach some sort of compromise. Are there changes anyone would like to propose be made to the paragraphs that would make them feel more comfortable with them? Cheers! - MC24

MC24- Your remarks are pov and, thankfully, the views of some travel agents don't represent those of the community as a whole (that is, if travel agents offer such advice at all). You have offered no citations or referenced your allegations and I do not believe them to be fair, accurate or valuable. My first reaction was that the editor must have taken the Borat movie too much to heart... Downunda 01:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The two paragraphs are, as Downunda points out, unsupported by citations or
 * references of any kind. In fact, the whole article is affected by creeping anti-
 * Traveller bias, the 'Criminal activities' section most blatantly of all. This infringes
 * the wikipedia NPOV rule.


 * To say of Travellers 'Doing business with Gypsies is not recommended. They often scam
 * those who do business with them' et cetera, constitutes nothing but abuse - what you are
 * saying is that all Travellers, without exception, are liable to be chronically
 * dishonest. The point is not even whether or not this is true, but that the wikipedia
 * objectivity rules state that you can't say it without having hard evidence to back it up,
 * and in the case of allegations like these, it would have to be something along the
 * lines of documentation clearly proving that an overwhelming majority of Travellers have
 * criminal records. I doubt that you can produce anything of the kind.


 * The NPOV rules only allow you to say that Travellers are often accused or suspected of
 * criminal behaviour, and even then you would have to cite a reputable source, such as an
 * article or survey confirming that they are indeed often accused or suspected of such a
 * thing. I'm not accusing you of being a bigot, but you can't use this site to spread what
 * amount to mere unsupported slurs about them or anybody else, any more than you're allowed
 * to write 'Travellers are wonderful people who would never hurt a fly'.


 * If, however, you want to indulge yourself in Traveller-bashing, there are sites where you
 * can hang out with like-minded people. This site does not care about your personal
 * assessment of Travellers or their customs; we want verifiable facts. Lexo 19:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the paragraph referring to Dennis Marlock and John Dowling's book "License to Steal". This book, by a retired Milwaukee policeman, regardless of its dubious title (replace the word "Gypsy" with any other slang term for an ethnic group and see if you can get away with it) presents supposed information about criminality amongst Romany groups in the US. The author is completely upfront about who he is referring to, and it is not Irish Travellers.

Furthermore, Marlock has been quoted as stating on US public television that "Gypsies" had not developed genetically "like other people" to the point of being able to distinguish right from wrong. I would suggest this might indicate a non-npov. http://www.othervoices.org/2.1/hancock/roma.html

--143.234.96.9 13:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

In Popular Culture
It seems the new show on FX called "The Riches" follows an family of Irish Travellers. This should be added to the list, if someone can verify it with an appropriate source. Socoman9 21:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears it was already added a couple of weeks ago. Downunda 23:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Further points
1 - George and Sharon Gmelch. A short bio and bibilography of them would be nice. Research by her ought to be more carefully attributed.

2 - Butt of a Ward - Again, attribute source. Though a native of Galway its a term I'm unfamilar with; stump of a tinker or stump of a Ward I have. Though I might add use of the term is not restricted to use on Travellers surnames (i.e., stump of a Burke/O'Flaherty/Griffin/Walsh/Madden/Kelly/Fahy/Murphy ....).

3 - Strictly specking, the term Pavee is used to describe Travellers from Munster (i.e., Cork, Kerry, Limerick). Never heard of it being used for other Travellers elsewhere in Ireland, but fair enough.

4 - I have a source explaining the meaning and origin of the term pavee which I hope to add here soon.

5 - The Wards of Galway - and possibly those of Donegal - were originally surnamed Mac an Bhaird and descend from a person who was a Bard. Its use as a surname dates from the 12th and 13th centuries. However, there is every chance that there may be a number of unrelated bearers of the name - that is, all the Wards of Ireland probably don't descend from one common ancestor of the name.

That's about it. Slan! Fergananim 18:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

In his Diaries, Rev James Woodforde, then a clergyman in Somerset, England, has an entry for April 1764 which refers to buying some garters from "an Irish Traveller that came to the door". Of course the "Traveller" might just have been a door to door salesman who happened to be Irish. Millbanks 15:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Gmelch was badly paraphrased here, or wrong - "...fugitives from British laws against their traditional, musical profession of singing songs and reciting poetry in the Irish language." How many people were ever prosecuted or driven from their homes for that? Numbers & dates, not vapid theories, please.Red Hurley (talk) 12:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Genetic aspect
Added today and there are lots more refs.Red Hurley (talk) 12:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)