Talk:Irish declension

Untitled
I have started moving information from my old web page (http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/gaeilge/ainmfhoc.htm), where I can no longer update it, into this article. I will try to use my info to expand upon (rather than replace) what's already here. --Angr 17:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

irish declensions
I understand that it is convention to use 5 declensions, but anyone with a passing interest can see there is more. Is it not time that the value of 5 is updated, or do you think there is much need?
 * Well, if a case can be made that there are more than 5 declensions, Wikipedia's not the place to make it. Wikipedia is for describing the current state of scholarship, not for proposing new analyses. —Angr 05:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Some observers would say there are four declensions, and would offload the 5th declension nouns into the irregular noun category. Some dictionaries don't bother classifying 5th declension nouns as belonging to any declension, and simply give their genitive and plural forms at the place of their dictionary entry. DellusMaximus 07:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Interestingly, there's a recent book by Andrew Carnie called "Irish Nouns: A Reference Guide" (published in 2008) that proposes that there are not five, but TEN declension classes, along with seven major types of plural formation, and provides fully inflected paradigms for 1200 nouns and a reference list of 10,000 nouns annotated with their new declension class and other information. Andrew Carnie is a well-known generative linguist, and while that by itself may cause some people to feel a bit uneasy about the work, but as far as I know, it's actually a descriptive grammar, without any generative syntactic bias. Unfortunately, I don't possess the expertise to provide any possible edits (nor am I aware of how influential or widely accepted the proposals in the book are), but if anyone has a grasp of the state of the art in studies of Irish declension, I recommend giving this book a read and assessing its value as a contribution to the field. Latinamnonvoco (talk) 05:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've seen the book and remain unconvinced that the new scheme is an improvement over the traditional system. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Strong plurals/weak plurals - MAJOR ERROR
Whoever wrote up the bits about strong and weak plurals goofed up royally. They have completely mixed up the two. The original author can fix it, or else if someone wants to volunteer me, I'll do it.

Weak plurals are those whose genitive plural is the same as their nominative singular, and this happens when the nominative plural is the same as the genitive singular, or the nominative plural is formed by adding an a to the nominative singular. Some quick examples ought to explain.

ns = nominative singular, gs = genitive singular, np = nominative plural, gp = genitive plural

Weak
 * ns fear, gs fir. np fir = gs, so gp = fear
 * ns capall, gs capaill. np capaill = gs, so gp = capall
 * ns úll, gs úill. np úll = ns +  'a' , so gp = úll

Strong
 * ns bóthar, gs bóthair. np bóithre which is neither gs NOR ns + 'a' , so gp = bóithre —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DellusMaximus (talk • contribs) 07:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
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Níba vs ní ba
I would have thought ní ba was far more common than níba, which although nicely symmetrical with níos, just looks strange to me. There are probably several good reasons for writing níos rather than ní is (pronunciation, confusion with neg. particle), but not so for níba. If no one objects I’ll change it. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 03:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and fixed it. I don't know where I got one-word níba and níb from, but Ó Dónaill's dictionary definitely gives only the two-word forms ní ba and ní b’. —Angr 10:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Linking
Is there any particular reason why so few of the words on this page are linked? I'll go and look up policy when I get a round tuit, but in the meantime maybe someone could explain. (The reason I'm here is because I was searching for the word "ionúin" and this is the only place it apparently exists here in Wikipedia, and I was surprised that it didn't have its own page.) TIA HAND —Phil | Talk 12:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so we're not likely to have articles on most Irish words. Wiktionary should, though; perhaps ionúin exists (and if not, it could be created). +Angr 18:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Error in Articles table
I am not knowledgeable enough to confidently correct it, but the entries in the Articles table for genitive feminine singular are plural. Kerberos (talk) 16:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The case of a noun after preposition "mar"
In the article, it's said that "Object of the prepositions ... mar "like, as"." in Nominative Subsection. However, In Bedell's Bible Translation in Early Modern Irish, it seemed that the object of "mar" was (or is) dative, as there was a distinction between dative and accusative in plural form and in some single form, and there is an example: "Do chionn nach bhfuilid na mná Eabhruidheacha mar na mnáibh Eiipteacha ...(Exodus 1:19)

(Modern form:... Do ceann nach bhfuil na mná Eabhracha mar na mná Éigipteacha; ...)"

the object of mar was the dative plural form of "an bhean".

Besides, in an Irish song The Dawning of the Day, the lyrics contains: "..., Mar mhnaoi ná scarfainn léi." (mnaoi is the dat. sg. form of bean (woman)). I suggested that the object of mar sho͘uld be dative at least in archaic form.--Yoxem (talk) 14:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)