Talk:Islamic architecture/Archive 1

Old stuff
Talk:Islamic architecture/Restructure situated in an Islamic country, it doesn't mean it is part of Islamic Architecture. So would someone take it off before someone believe this common mistake.

--Abdullah Geelah 20:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we somehow discuss in slightly greater the potential problematics of the term "Islamic architecture"--for instance, why can there be "Islamic architecture" and not a "Christian architecture", or is there? ~ Dpr 05:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * 1) I think it is because many elements of this architecture stem for making it in Persian Architecture'', ISBN: 1871031788
 * 2) Most people mean "architecture from the Islamic era" when using the pharse "Islamic Architecture" anyway.--Zereshk 15:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Generally it has its own catagory and many books are written on the topic.


 * In reponse to the above regarding "Christian architecture" I think we can definitely say there is such a thing - certainly Gothic architecture, built in an era when european societies were a. very theologised and b. much more homogenous - represent a christian architecture which wasn't always strictly confined to the building of churches. A definition of Islamic architecture then, perhaps becomes the architecture of the religious buildings associated with the religion (fairly obviously) and also those secular buildings heavily influenced by the themes and traditions of the religious. --Mcginnly | Natter 09:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Having completed my reading - Croppelstone puts forwards a much better definitions relating to 4 main building types that islamic architecture developed to excellence and then sees the minor building types as being derivative - "The principal architectural types of Islam are the mosque, the tomb, the fort and the palace. Public baths, fountains, and domestic architecture employ features drawn from the major types." I'm going to summariase cropplestone below and then perhaps we can all discuss how best to organise it in the current article?--Mcginnly | Natter 17:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive
Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.--Fenice 08:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Picture
About a picture, some good examples would be the Alhambra palace in Spain, the Taj Mahal, Agra, India(overused but noteworthy); the Dome of the Rock, Jeruslaem; The Shah's Mosque of Isfahan, Iran; The Badshahi mosque, Lahore, Pakistan; The Great Mosque of Xi'an, China; Shalimar Gardens of Lahore, Pakistan; The Topkapi Palace, Istanbul, Turkey; The Mosque of Timbuktu, Mali. Here are a bunch of diverse examples, not all of them mosques, either.

Raja 07:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I like your list. There's quite a bit of overlap with Cropplestones which I'll reproduce below to see what wikipedia has already on the subject:-

C7

 * Quba Mosque first mosque (other than the Ka'ba) according to muslem tradition.
 * Al-Masjid al-Nabawi Prophet mosque - founded only days after Quba - first 'friday mosque'
 * (Sometime before 632) Rebuilding of the Ka'ba at Mecca probably by a shipwrecked abyssinian carpenter. Notable for 1. being constructed whilst Mohammed was alive. 2. Walls were decorated with paintings of Mary, Jesus, Abraham, prophets, angels and trees - the banning of icons arose during the eighth century and was enshrined in Hadith not in the Koran. unclear if this is the Ka'ba itself or the construction of the Masjid al-Haram - find date source for Masjid al-Haram.
 * 643 Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem - earliest surving monument of Moslem architecture

C8

 * C8 Blue Mosque, (Jamé Mosque), Isfahan, - first fretted and inlaid window. Strictly no men or animals in mosiac. - continuity from byzantine tradition.
 * 707 Grand Mosque, Damascus - oldest congregational mosque to survive.

C9

 * 878 Ibn Tulun Mosque, Cairo - nomadic influence, non-urban, influence of fortified enclosure round a well - oasis architecture.

C10

 * C10 Masjid-i-Jami,Great Mosque of Esfahan? Isfahan. Persian Moslem architecture - elaborate ornament spreads everywhere but never dominate the structure. Entrance has tiered Squinches one above the other to form enormous apse. Moslem use of architectural inscription both in cursive and the very geometric Kufic scripts have never been paralleled in Western architecture.
 * C10 Masjid-i-Jami, Nayriz, Shiraz, Iran.

C12

 * C12 Gate at Chella (Chellah?) North Africa

C13

 * Early C13 Kutb Minar at the Qutb complex one of earliest surviving Islamic buildings in India.

C14

 * 1362 Masjid-i-Jami, (The Friday (or Congregation) Mosque) Yezd.

C15

 * 1405 Gur-e Amir, Samarkand Persian and central Asian domes resemble the Cairene but with additional slight swell at the base. Often gadrooned ribbed or fluted - cross section is saracens helmet.

C16

 * 1550 Sahasram, Bengal Giant lotus shaped dome is structural not a tumulus. completely symmetrical like early stupas - a circle on a square.

C17

 * 1632 Taj Mahal, Agra, India - Shah Jehan's tomb for his wife. Bulb dome crowns a square, symmetrical building whose triple-arched sides hark back to Roman monuments particularly the Arch of Janus.


 * 1650 Pearl Mosque, Agra scalloped edges to arched collonades (actually shaped corbels in tiers)

C18

 * 1700 Chehel Sotoun Palace, Isfahan porch with trabeated construction - directly influenced from Graeco-Persian traditions.

C20

 * 1971 Mausoleum of Mohammed V

featured article candidate
From the beginning there seems to be some confusion as to whether general Islamic architecture is going to be discussed, or muslim cultural architecture. Then towards the end the article evolves into a discussion if mosque architecture. Architecture being such a broad word and field, either Islamic architecture needs to be discussed as a whole, with mosques a part of that whole, or this needs to be redefined as an article on mosque architecture. Bozone 16:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Influences on Islamic architecture

 * Byzantine architecture
 * Persian architecture

Influence beyond Islam

 * Royal Pavilion
 * Onion dome
 * Moresque architecture
 * Gothic pointed arch
 * Architecture in Bosnia and Herzegovina
 * Byzantine architecture - see this passage
 * The continuous influence from the East is strangely shown in the fashion of decorating external brick walls of churches built about the 12th century, in which bricks roughly carved into form are set up so as to make bands of ornamentation which it is quite clear are imitated from Cufic writing. This fashion was associated with the disposition of the exterior brick and stone work generally into many varieties of pattern, zig-zags, key-patterns &c.; and, as similar decoration is found in many Persian buildings, it is probable that this custom also was derived from the East

Pevsner on the subject

 * The origins are very obscure. The Bedouin Arabs, who were the original followers of Mohammed and responsible for the first islamic conquests in Syria, Palestine, and Persia, were a nomadic people who lived in tents. In the cities they conquered they began by converting old buildings, and christian churches became mosques; in damascus a pagan temple transformed into a Christian church was incorporated into the Great Mosque (706-15). The earliest and one of the most beautiful of islamic buildings is the Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem, built as a sanctuary (not as a mosque)[there's some debate about this] on a circular plan (685-705, but much altered later, especially in 1561 when the exterior was cased in Persian tiles and the interior lined with marble). The first minarets were converted church towers in Syria, and that built a Kairouan, Tunisia (724-7), is modelled on such a tower. True to their nomadic origins the Umayyad rulers preferred desert residences to town palaces. Several survive in ruins - Qasr al-Hair (728-9); Mshatta near Amman, Jodan31.74111°N, 36.09444°W; and Qasr at-Tuba31.32639°N, 36.57278°W in the Wadi Ghadorf near Amman. In plan these groups of buildings were derived from Roman frontier stations. Both religious and secular buildings of the period incorporate elements which were to become distinguishing features of islamic architecture: The horseshoe arch, tunnel vaults of stone and brick, rich surface decoration in carved stone, mosaic, and painting. During the Umayyad period the mosque took its permanent architectural form, dictated by liturgical needs - minarets from which the faithful could be called to prayer; a wide courtyard with a central fountain for ablutions, with surrounding colonnades to give protection from the sun; a large praying chamber, marked externally by a dome (as a sign of importance) and internally by the mihrab or niche indicating the direction of Mecca, towards which the faithful must turn in prayer. The last survivor of the Umayyad dynasty became the founder of the Emirates at Cordoba in Spain, where the early style of Islamic architecture was brought to perfection in the Mezquita (786-990)
 * Under the Abassids who surplanted the Umayyads in 750, Persian influence began to dominate the Islamic world. The main achievements in architecture were the foundation of the new capital at Baghdad, built on a circular plan (762-7, now largely destroyed) and, slightly later, the smaller city of Ar Raqqah, Syria of which little survives except its richly decorated gateways. It was at this period that Islamic architecture began to depart radically from Hellenistic and Byzantine conventions. An elaborate court etiquette, derived from persia and contrary to Bedouin ideas of informality, was introduced, and palaces were designed for the new caliphs on more formal and grandiose lines, e.g. the palaces of Ukhaidir and Samarra in Iraq. These large buildings were run up very quickly; stone was abandoned in favour of brick and there was much use of decorative stucco. The main C9 achievements were the great mosque of Kairouan, Tunisia (836); the Bu Fatata Mosque, Susa, Tunisia (850-1); the Great Mosque of Samarra, Iraq with its strange ziggurat-like minaret (c850) and the very well preserved Mosque of Ibn Tulun, Cairo (876-7). Building materials were usually rough but dressed with intricate geometrical or floral surface decorations in painted stucco, mosaic, glazed tiles, or shallow relief carving. Local traditions influenced the decorative styles in various regions (See Indian pakistan, persian and turkish architecture)
 * In the original nucleus of the Islamic world the most notable later mosques are, The Blue Mosque of Tabriz, Persia (1204), Cairo (Mosque of Sultan Barquq 1384) and the mosque at Isfahan, Persia (1585). Most of the earlier religious builings, including the Masjid-el-aksa and the Dome of the Rock in jerusalem, were also altered and more richly decorated in these centuries. In southern spain a local style of great oppulence was developed; it's principle monuments are the Giralda tower, Seville (1159) and the Alhambra (1309-54) . --Mcginnly | Natter 21:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Curl on the subject
''Term covering a huge range of buildings and stylistic variations, but generally associated with buildings connected to the followers of Mohammed. Islamic architecture has several characteristic features, including the pointed, multifoil, low, wide, four centred and horseshoe arch, the Muqarna or stalactite corbel clasdding of coloured glazed earthenware and patterned tilework, fretted gables of stone, marble or stucco, and above all, coherent and serene geometry. Domes, minarets, cloisters, and elaborate battlements, often of the almena typ, are commonly associated with Islamic buildings.'' Islamic architecture has influenced design in the West, notably the pointed arch and cusping in the medieval period, and the stylistic aspects of so-called Moresque architecture in which elements of Islamic, especially Moorish architecture (e.g. the Alhambra, Granada, Spain]] were used as part of the European enchantment with exotic oriental styles in C18 (e.g. the work of Sir William Chambers at Kew) and C19 (e.g. Friedrich Ludwig Persius's house at Potsdam (1841-2) and George Aitchison Junior's Arab Hall in Kensington (1877-9). --Mcginnly | Natter 22:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Paradise garden
We need a mention of paradise gardens - does anyone have a plan of the Taj Mahal garden (or any other paradise garden)? --Mcginnly | Natter 21:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Lead
I'm going to remove the translations of islamic architecture from the Lead - I'm not sure what their purpose is and the list is rather incomplete and arbitrary - why is persian there, but not indian, malaysian, french or spanish etc - translation helps with places and names of buildings etc by giving the reader the local name should he wish to go there, but to translate the name of an architectural movement into every language in the world is not what en.wikipedia is about in my opinion.--Mcginnly | Natter 11:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you should remove it from this article but different languages help us to understand and the point is that Persian, Arabic and Turkish are the major languages in the Islamic world. However, can you keep Arabic as it is the main language of Islam???

Abdullah Geelah 21:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Too many external links
There are too many external links. Does anyone want to sort through them and remove any? Firstly remove any that may violate WP:EL --Merbabu 06:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Mihrab in Islamic architecture
Mihrab is an idea created by Islamic tradition and background and has not been taken by another religion.Aziz1005 21:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Similar niches were found in pre-Islamic synagogue's Meowy 02:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Islamic Mosaics
Medieval Islamic Mosaics Used Modern Math --Striver - talk 12:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Classification is a bit erroneous
I dont think it is correct to consider "Turkistan (Timurid) architecture" as a section on its own. That style of architecture is almost entirely part of Persian architecture's post-Islamic styles. The iwans, chahar bagh, and even dome designs are identical.--Zereshk 00:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Alfiz
Hello. I don't know how to categorize this element: Alfiz. There is any Elements of Islamic Architecture category (or similar) planned?. Thanks --Owdki talk 21:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Thanks. --Owdki talk 20:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Modern Islamic
This section could do with a great expansion, firstly add the Burj Dubai the worlds tallest building, which is modern islamic architecture. This section could be a real jem if it was greatly expanded. links: Dubai architecture, burj dubai and so on.--Jak3m 14:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see how any of that first paragraph on the contemporary buildings makes sense. Islamic architecture would have to do with mosques since Islam is a religion. What is presented is clearly modern Arab architecture? Its definetly not a mosque. The second paragraph about the "modern" looking mosque seems related, however.Grk1011 (talk) 03:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't even know why Burj Al-Arab is there in 'Islamic Architecture'. It is Arab architecture, not Islamic. One section could be 'influence of Islamic architecture' and have non-Islamic buildings. Same is the case for Taj Mahal and the light house and other buildings that are not 'Islamic' as such.


 * In addition, I think the title of the article should be more 'Muslim Architecture' than Islamic Architecture since Islam does not prescribe any type of architecture for mosques and religious buildings - this has been Muslim endeavor out of their passion and zeal and should be classified as such. Omer (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I got to this article via a redirection from "Arab architecture". I wanted info on modern arab architecture, but I got this instead. This article dos not cover any type of modern architecture at all. We should probably create a new article about modern Arab architecture, and the references to the Burj Dubai can go there. Zur (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Missing early Arab architecture section
The article has sections on Persian, Turkish, Moorish, Chinese, African, Mamluk, Fatimid and Indian architecture, but nothing on Ummayad architecture. Some prime examples would be the Dome of the Rock, al-Aqsa Mosque and the Grand Mosque of Damascus all built by the Ummayads. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * actually Al Ameer son i think you have raised a pretty important issue here, the Entire Article is Missing a section on Arab Architechture... it mensions sections on Persian, Ottoman, Turkic, Moorish, and misses the Ummayids, Rashiduns, Fatimids and Abbasids, i believe that it should be included, and i'm prepared to inlucde an good well done section... which will include the architechture in Early Islamic such as Mosque of Amr Bin al Aas in Cairo, and Fatimids to Ayyubid Architecture. putting in mind that the Arab architechture can also has the moorish and the Mamluk architechture as a Variant of it...

Arab League User (talk) 23:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)--

Transfers from Islamic art
I am gradually overhauling the other article. It, in particular in the history section, attempts to cover Islamic architecture as well, which I think it should not - for size reasons, and following our normal pattern in arts articles, and because this is here. The sections in question were mostly written by a PhD candidate on early Islamic art/architecture, also using the French FA article, & are pretty good. Much of the architectuaral stuff, which is not very long, would I think improve this article. If no one objects I will start working it in here. Or if anyone else wants to do so, please go ahead. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Mosques without domes?
I think there should be a section about mosques without domes. People outside of the Islamic world still relate stereotypical mosques (or other relevant Islamic architectures) with domes. Komitsuki (talk) 15:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sebil + Well House
no reference to the fact that was more  islamic drinking water facilities such as: Sebil and Well House. פארוק (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

what is arab in it expect Religion.
All the monument which are shown in this artical is native to that area and largely it is parsian or indian architecture.what is Arubic there.just because the monument which are mention in this site where made by people who where muslim it called islamic artitucture is there eny site where i can find Arab architecture.It is very funny that if a mosque is made in china by a chanies muslim than it become islamic architecture.It is like a arub bulild a house in US and it will become islamic architecture.--59.162.59.66 (talk) 13:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Sectional errors
The large History section at the beginning is mostly a description of "Arabic architecture", rather than being a true section on history. Large chunks of this text should be under a separate section of: "Arabic style" or "Mamluk style", and not history, as it gives the novice reader the impression that the history of Islamic architecture is synonymous with Arabic architecture.

-- mghotbi_85 (talk) 04:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

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Template:Islam in South Asia
I like to add this template to this page but not sure what the problem is. This page is part of a series on Islam in South Asia. Please help! 65.95.136.96 (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's template spam . Why do you want to add it to this page? I see no reason why it should be added because I see no usefulness in the template. What is useful in adding that template to that section? Should it not be added to the main pages of that section (e.g Mughal architecture) instead? Sorry, I don't see your reason as valid. Do you have another reason why it should be included? (121.219.127.104 (talk) 22:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC))
 * This IP address is Edit warring with me on from Multiple IPs on multiple articles. Please help. 65.95.136.96 (talk) 23:33, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Stop talking nonsense. I already told you that I am the same user, the only thing is my IP address changes. If you can't have a proper discussion and continue to play the victim do not even bother opening any discussions! (121.219.22.188 (talk) 08:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC))

External links modified
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The two links to Archnet listed above under "*Added Archive" are still available, but with new URLs. Archnet was redesigned in 2013, so links were changed. https://web.archive.org/web/20040624170747/http://archnet.org/library/pubdownloader/pdf/3588/doc/dpt0810.pdf to and http://archnet.org/library/pubdownloader/pdf/3588/doc/dpt0810.pdf is now at http://archnet.org/publications/4121 and https://web.archive.org/web/20110629172823/https://archnet.org/library/dictionary/entry.jsp?entry_id=DIA0502 to https://archnet.org/library/dictionary/entry.jsp?entry_id=DIA0502 is now at http://archnet.org/publications/8806

It probably doesn't matter, since both archived links are available, but the new pages are much better linked within Archnet. I won't change these because I am the Content Manager of Archnet, and don't want to violate a conflict of interest policy. Mikeyat (talk) 16:02, 20 January 2020 (UTC)Mikeyat

The etymology section is not encyclopedic at all
The etymology section is just a copy paste of an oped by random columnist from some Persian newspaper. That itself is already telling about it’s verifiability, undue weight issue etc but how come the use of the words such as “we” or phrases “can be considered as an end to this discussion” have been tolerated? Wikipedia is not a personal blog, but seems like nobody cares about the decay of Islam related articles. JahlilMA (talk) 17:31, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * removed - also the english is terrible, and its nothing to do with etymology. Only added in early December. Johnbod (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)