Talk:Israel Defense Forces ranks

Oh, dear ...
Aluf is NOT 'champion'. That is a screaming instance of conflation. Yes, 'aluf' ALSO means 'champion' in modern Hebrew, but it did NOT mean that when used in the Scriptures. It means 'commanding a 1000 men'. There are several other such mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.119.51 (talk) 13:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I would translate "aluf" as "chieftain". But definitely not "champion". 192.118.33.100 (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Untitled
مرگ بر اسرائیل مرگ بر اسرائیل — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.22.57.211 (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2016 (UTC) Is it possible to have translations of the Hebrew terms for IDF ranks along with their western equivilants. For example "Rav Aluf" means "Great Champion" not Lieutenant General.

Seren, meaning "captain", translates as "captain" or "military commander"
This is gibberish. First, the English sentence is garbled. Second, seren is the EQUIVALENT of captain, it does not MEAN captain. It also doesn't translate as 'military commander' - we don't really know what exactly those ranks or titles meant in the Bible.

There are similar problems with the general ranks, which I'll comment on later. Suffice it to say that the translations are amateurish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 09:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Several of these 'translations' are amateurish gibberish. See my comment about 'aluf'. This seems to have been created by a 12-year old with only rudimentary grasp of Hebrew (and/or of English).

Table of Ranks
Under enlisted ranks, the article states: "Rav nagad is a senior staff NCO rank equivalent to the American ranks of "Chief Warrant Officer" and "Master Warrant Officer"." This is incorrect. The Israeli ranks appear to be roughly equivalent to the British ranks of "Warrant Officer Class 2" and "Warrant Officer Class 1" respectively, but not to American WO ranks. US Warrant Officers are officers appointed by warrant, or by commission past WO1. They are not NCOs, or equivalent to NCOs. Also, there is no American "Master Warrant Officer" rank. Warrant Officers above WO-1 are "Chief Warrant Officers." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.141.16.46 (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I have changed the table of ranks and added IDF temlate to the article --DimaY2K 14:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

NCO ranks as listed are confusing. Command Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major are US ranks, both NATO OR-9. Chief Warrant Officer is also a US rank, which is not OR-9 and is not an NCO rank at all. Neither is Warrant Officer in US system. British system has 2 Warrant Officer ranks, Class 2 and Class 1, which are NATO OR-8 and OR-9 respectively. So the table for IDF here is either misidentifying US ranks, wrongly mixing US and UK ranks, or both.

spelling mistakes?
Why the hell is טוראי written with a ת? It's not only there. why is סמל written as an acronym for סגן מחוץ למניין? The Hebrew page does not give any reason to believe that it is an acronym. In any case, סגן מחוץ למניין makes no sense. Draganta (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * סמל was originally an acronym for סגן מחוץ למניין which can be loosely translated as "not-counted lieutenant" or such. It's been in use for so long that it's no longer considered an acronym, but a separate word (much like "laser")Eyl (talk) 14:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It obviously has been long enough that my father (who served in צה"ל the late 70's/early 80's) never heard of it. Draganta (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Nagad Versus Mashak
In IDF there is a big difference between rank and position. many posiotons have names identical to ranks, but there is no actual connection between the two, i.e. Samal (sergant) can refer to a rank or a position. Mashak is someone in commanding position which is not an officer, rufly and inaccurately translated to Non-Commissioned Officers. (A non-officer commander is more appropriate). The ranks of Nagad are achived by those who serve for more then 3 years (mandatory service), but have not gone through Officer's training. It is a proffesional rate, which represents both expirience and proffessional achivements. It is wrong to call them Non-Commissioned Officers, because most of them do not hold actual commanding authority, but instead only oversee the working of regular soldiers in assingment assigned ot them, or have disciplinary jobs.

Personaly I think it would be most fitting, in the intrest of accuracy, to note this in notes, and change the "Non-Commissioned Officers" title to "Nagad (see notes)". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.55.193 (talk) 13:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

--Your mistake is in conflating the words katzin and officer. In English, 'officer' is a wider term than the Hebrew katzin. Thus, an NCO is not a qatzin because s/he has not been commissioned, and mashak is a correct equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 09:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It's true that there is a big difference between mashak and nagad, but there are two things to take note of: firstly, both are translated as non-commissioned officer into English by the most notable dictionaries. Secondly, most nagadim do have commanding positions, at least moreso than mashakim. Even if they don't act as commanders and only oversee the work of younger soldiers, they are often still officially considered commanders and may issue orders to lesser ranks.
 * I think 'senior non-commissioned officer' would indeed be appropriate for nagad (as several editors have previously suggested in their edits), however, it is not an official translation so I'm not sure how fitting it would be for use on Wikipedia.
 * -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible improvements
1) It would be interesting to have literal translations of ranks included 2) It would be useful to have duties of NCO ranks given, to better make a comparison with other armies. Otherwise it is not clear, especially since promotion to corporal is apparently automatic. 3) There should be an explanation of what an "academic officer" is. 129.12.200.49 22:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Unit command in the IDF
I'm not 100% sure what officers command what size units during wartime (I'm combat support), but in the IDF's regular structure, the Aluf commands branches and directorates (Amash, Aman, Amatz, etc.), while Tatei Aluf command corps (חילות), such as Hamatz, Haman, Modash or Hir. Alufei Mishne command brigades, like Golani and Paratroopers. Therefore, by some interpretations (and according to HeWiki), Aluf Mishne is actually a Brig. Gen. and Tat Aluf is a Maj. Gen. This isn't widely accepted and therefore not used here, but just FYI this is the correct command structure as of 2007. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Private 1st-class
A cite is needed as to when this rank became defunct. The article states this happened in 1999, but I enlisted in 1995, but AFAIK it was only in use in the 70s; I can personally attest it was out of use by 1995. Eyl (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, a general staff order (#3.0257), which was last updated in 1998, mentions several times a PFC rank. Therefore, the 1999 figure seems accurate. Not sure though, I haven't been to the army that long ago. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The rank was kept "on the books" at the time, but it wasn't in actual use (i.e. it appeared on rank charts, but no-one actually got the rank - promotions were directly from private to corporal)--Eyl (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merger
The article called Israel Defense Forces ranks and insignia is mostly duplicated within the article called Israel Defense Forces ranks. As both articles contain a column in the table for insignia, I see little reason to keep two separate articles and thus propose that the two be merged here. Green Giant (talk) 05:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, right. Pessimist2006 (talk) 19:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. No reason for both to exist; just a redirect will suffice, I don't think there's any content to be carried over. —Ynhockey (Talk) 03:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sergeant
My correction, stating that samal (sergeant) is no longer considered as an acronym, has been erroneously reverted by an anonymous user without providing any explanation. The word did originate as an acronym for "segen mi-khutz la-minyan" (thus copying NCO abbreviation), but quite soon it has lost its original meaning. Nowadays its meaning is quite far from its original meaning, and it is no longer treated as an acronym (hence no gershayim symbol ("), as needed for an abbreviation/acronym in Hebrew, is written inside it): see the IDF site and any official Israeli source or trustworthy dictionary (while some non-official sources might misspell it). It should be better to refer to the ethymology in the references, if at all, while correcting the name inside the table. Prokurator11 (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've corrected it. Prokurator11 (talk) 13:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Recruit
I don't see why recruit should be listed there at all. It's not a rank, it's a position. |henasraf 23:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed it now. —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:41, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Supreme Officers?
קצינים ראשים Supreme Officers or General Officers

Has anyone heard of קצינים ראשיים? Seems like inaccurate OR. —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * קצינים בכירים would be much better. KAHANAR, KASHNAR, KATMAR e.t.c are קצינים ראשים. Flayer (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a position though, not a rank, or a type of rank. An Aluf is not usually a קצין ראשי, nor are many if not most other generals. —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. Flayer (talk) 07:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Great :) I have corrected the problem. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:30, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

NATO equivalence
There is some confusion over the NATO equivalents in this article. In the text is said, that: Rav samal translates as "chief sergeant"; it is a career NCO rank equivalent to a British or Commonwealth "Staff Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major", while in the table the same rank is regarded as an OR-5: Sergeant first class, a platoon sergeant, equivalent to NATO OR-5.


 * Staff Sergeant (UK) = OR-7
 * Sergeant Major [WO2] (UK) = OR-8
 * Sergeant Firs Class (US) = OR-7

Hence, the text contradicts itself twice.

Given the descriptions of the ranks, the NATO codes should be something like this:
 * Turai = OR-1/2
 * Rav turai = OR-3 Corporal, a team leader
 * Samal = OR-4 Sergeant, a team leader
 * Samal rishon = OR-5 Staff sergeant, a squad leader


 * Rav samal = OR-6/7 Sergeant first class, a platoon sergeant
 * Rav samal rishon = OR-8 Master sergeant, senior NCO of a company or battery
 * Rav samal mitkadem = OR-9 Sergeant major, senior NCO of a battalion
 * Rav samal bakhír = OR-9 Command sergeant major, senior NCO of a Regiment or Brigade
 * Rav nagad mishne = W-1 Warrant officer, senior specialist professional
 * Rav nagad = W-2 Chief warrant officer, most senior specialist professional

Any disagreements? 84.23.155.84 (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

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