Talk:Italian Hall disaster

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2021 and 7 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jds94.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Nothing Links Here
Since nothing links here, this entry will be lost. Why not make it a subsection at Calumet, Michigan, with a redirect from here? --Wetman 09:17, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Wetman should be pleased to find that links from this item to and from one of the best US Supreme Court Justices have been identified and inserted. Syd1435 04:40, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)


 * Shouting fire in a crowded theater links here. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 06:28, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Famous judge said ....
A famous Supreme Court Justice said that Freedom of Speech does not extend to crying out "Fire!" in a crowded building.

Did this dictum get made before or after the 1913 massacre?

Which justice?

Syd1435 02:09, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)


 * The phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater," or similar phrases, predate the Italian Hall disaster. In one example that I know of, on August 26, 1911, 28 people died in a stampede to get out of a Canonsburg, PA theater after someone mistakenly shouted "fire."  This led to a national discussion on the subject at that time - well before the incident in Calumet.  Plazak (talk) 12:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouting fire in a crowded theater 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 20:03, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Which Justice?

 * Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

203.12.97.47 04:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Holmes said, in Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919), "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre and causing a panic." JHobson2 (talk) 13:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.
IIRC, in the film The Magnificent Yankee Holmes struggles to find an example that justifies the suppression of free speech (in time of war?) and the above phrase is what he and his close collegue comes up with. Syd1435 04:33, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)
 * The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre...
 * This quote is covered in the article Shouting fire in a crowded theater. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 06:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Similar incidents on TV
In a spy movie, the hero, a western agent, is about to get caught in a theatre by the KGB. He shouts "fire" and in the pandemonium that results, is able to escape. Syd1435 02:29, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
 * The movie is Torn Curtain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.96 (talk) 09:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not topical to the improvement of the article. Please refrain from using talk pages as chat lines. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 06:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Death's Door
I've yet to read it. If any proper information from that book that could add more insight to this incident, to add to the article, it would be great if anyone could add to this. Peoplesunionpro 19:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * there are references from the book, and I have correlated a law review of the book to this article (reference added). Generally, anyone interested in improving an article may do so.  Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 06:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Strike
From the article:
 * "One of the longest and most disastrous strikes in the copper country took place in the C&H."

This is true, but it implies that the strike affected only C&H. The 1913 strike hit every mine in the Copper Country -- C&H just happened to be the biggest. I can't figure out an appropriate way to say this -- anyone have a suggestion? -- dcclark (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment by Will, a Colorado historian: There is nothing in this about Western Federation of Miners president Charles H. Moyer's attack. I have been doing research on the Silverton Colorado 'Standard' and Silverton Colorado 'Miner' and I came across references to this event in the respective first issues of 1914. Both tell similar stories, which, in a nutshell, is that Moyer was severely beaten Christmas Eve, shot in the back, dragged through the streets, and that he and Charles Tanner (also a Union rep) were thrown on a train and 'escorted' away from Calumet as far as Milwaukee. Moyer's wounds were -- at the time of the article, serious but not life threatening though one doctor opined that he might be paralyzed. This was apparently because Moyer advised the union families not to accept charity from this unfortunate disaster. Now, I have no idea where these papers got what they reported, but it is likely they paraphrased Chicago and other newspapers. I think that the Moyer incident should be added as a short item with a link to a more comprehensive page that includes factual information from local and regional newspapers, law reports, etc. where that is feasible to find (about Moyer, his involvement in the strike, the WFM, etc). Sadly I cannot help because I do not know how to properly edit Wiki articles and all I have are two very brief Colorado newspaper articles. Thanks for keeping history alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.222.203 (talk) 06:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Local Legend / Hearsay
I didn't see any mention in the main article about the possibility that the call of 'Fire' was actually based on a misunderstanding from something someone said in another language, probably Finnish, or said in English and misinterpretted as Fire in Finnish. There was (and still is) a large Finnish population in the Calumet area. These are things I only know from having lived in the Calumet are and hearing them as local legend so cannot speak of references. Perhaps someone could assist.

Also, I have heard that because so many people were killed in the event, the Calumet Theater was used as a temporary morgue, and for identification of the bodies. Entire families lost their lives that day and supposedly lay together dead at the theater leading to stories of hauntings.“Nbcouling (talk) 02:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)”


 * According to Mine Towns by Alison K. Hoagland, the Croatian words for fire and water are very similar (p. 221). Fourteen Croatian were among the dead (p. 233). Chris857 (talk) 01:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Interesting speculation but no references have been provided for substantiation. Let's not use Talk pages as a general discussion.  Besides, why would someone run up the stairs, yell "Water", waive their arms, and dart down the stairs again?    Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 06:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Neutrality challenged
I discovered that a POV template had been applied to this article stating that the neutrality of this article is disputed, dated August 2012. I have examined the talk page and have found no references to "POV" "neutrality" or "bias" by anyone including the author of the POV template, User:yutsi. I have contacted the author to inform him that if anyone wishes to challenge the neutrality of this article, it should be done using the article:Talk page as directed by the template. I have examined the article and found no evidence of bias. I am therefore removing the neutrality template, but will leave the discussion open. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 05:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Article Improvements
I have been working on making this article better in a sandbox of mine. Does anyone have any suggestions or criticism? There are still some unfinished or unstarted sections. Chris857 (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Hanging reference
The second paragraph of the 'Aftermath' section starts out with "The Alliance's offer was not unconditional." but the article never refers to any offer by the Citizens' Alliance. Radial (talk) 19:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Also: [Hoagland] opines that the foreshortened stereopticon photo was "impossible" What stereopticon photo?--93.92.60.186 (talk) 09:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

"men, women and children" ?
"men, women and children" is a trite and unencyclopedic appeal to emotion. What about "people" was not sufficient to convey who the victims were in this disaster? --23.119.204.117 (talk) 01:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
 * "People" doesn't tell you anything about the victims' ages or genders, which were significant to the social impact of the incident. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:41, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Day of the week
Why delete it? One of the photo captions reads "a funeral procession held on the Sunday". How many days is that since the tragedy? Without knowing what day of the week it happened, how will the reader know? Grassynoel (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)