Talk:Ivana Miličević/Archive 1

Bosnian a nationality?
Bosnian is not a nationality. There are three nations living in Bosnia; Serbs, Croats and Muslims, who recently started calling themselves Bosniaks. Ivana Milicevic is an American of Croatian heritage (both her parents are Croatian). Or she's Croat from Bosnia and Herzegovina.
 * Bosnia is a nation, therefore "Bosnian" is an acceptible English term for someone who is originally from Bosnia and Herzegovina or currently a citizen of said country. The three "nations" as you call them are constitutive ethnic groups and this ethnicity would not be considered a "nationality" in the English sense of the word.  Since Ms. Miličević was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, later emigrated to the U.S.A., and both of her parents are of Croatian ethnicity, the most correct way to state this in English is that she is a Bosnian-American (nationality) and an ethnic Croat.--Isotope23 14:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Isotope, you asked me on my talk page to come here and clarify on this but you've pretty much said everything perfectly. The thing is that in the former Yugoslavia, and many former communist countries, the term "nation" ('nacija' locally) refers to ethnic groups. So in popular usage in Yugoslavia, Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks are nations. However, the predominant usage in the world (especially now after the cold war) is that nation/nationality depends entirely on the country of one's origins (i.e. American, Bosnian, Swiss) as opposed to one's ethnic roots. Live Forever 17:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Bosnian". I'm almost certain she is of Serbian descent, though there is contradictory information as to her heritage on the internet. If someone can cite a reputable source it can be replaced. For now, I will leave it out. Isotope23 5 July 2005 18:11 (UTC)


 * She is a Bosnian actress. I think you mistook Bosnian (which is a nationality and general term for anybody from Bosnia and Herzegovina or who considers it their homeland) for Bosniak (which is one of Bosnia's three main ethnic groups, consisting of descendants of Islamicized "Serbo-Croat" speaking south slavs). Someone can be a Bosnian regardless of whether they are from Croat, Serb, or Bosniak ancestry. The Milicevic's, I believe, are of Croat heritage. Possibly mixed though, I'm not sure. Either way, I know that she's stated numerous times her nationality is Bosnian. Live Forever 23:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * According to the IMDB, she is a Bosnian of Serbian descent. I will fix the article. Regards, Carioca 06:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The IMDB now says she's "of Croatian heritage".

I'm also a Bosnian Serb.According to IMDB she attended the St. Lazarus Serbian Orthodox Cathedral in Detroit thus making here Orthodox=Serb,and not Catholic=Croat.Also,Milicevic is not a strictly Croatian surname.As far as I know,only the Bosniaks and a very small amount of Serbs and Croats(principally from mixed marriages)regard themselves as "Bosnians"(as a separate nations).Can you state some sources where Ivana refers to herself as "Bosnian"?I think that would be the best to qualify her for now as "American actress of Serbian(Croatian)descent?

That's stupid.


 * The only source I found stating that she is Bosnian is the IMDB. If she has ever referred to herself as a Bosnian, I did not find it. Regards, Carioca 22:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The IMDB does not say that.


 * So what else do you call someone that's from Bosnia and Herzegovina? Should we just pretend she's not from the country at all because of her ethnic descent? That's completely unreasonable. Her status as a Bosnian is completely independent of her ethnicity. Live Forever 01:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. She seems to be a Bosnian of Serbian descent (according to IMDB, which is a reliable source), and this should be included in the article, like I did on January 6. She also needs to be included in the Bosnian actors category. Regards, Carioca 02:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The IMDB does not say that.

either way,it is again written that she's Croatian.

Her parents attend St. Lucija Roman Catholic Church in Troy, Michigan. They are Croatian.
 * According to the IMDB, she attended St. Lazarus Serbian Orthodox Cathedral in Detroit when she was a child. What is your source? Regards, Carioca 02:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My source would be her parents. I attended the church a few times and was introduced to her father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.205.231.209 (talk • contribs) 19:43, January 31, 2006
 * I am sorry, but we need verifiable sources, like an interview, a website or a book. Unfortunately, non-verifiable sources cannot be used. Regards, Carioca 22:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I see that the ethnicity is disputed a lot. I will erase everything about her ethnicity in the article due to lack of sources and relevance. Some say she's ethnic Croat some say ethnic Serb but I don't think imdb.com can be used as a source since everyone and anyone can create an account and write what they wish on the website.
 * Personally, I think she is an ethnic Croat since her first name is Ivana (typical name for girls in Bosnia among the Catholic population) while ethnic Serbs in Bosnia hardly ever use it if ever at all. Secondly, her surname Miličević is for the most part a Catholic surname but there are also Serbs with the same last name. Also, her brother is Tomo which is short for Tomislav a very popular name for Catholic males in Bosnia and almost never used by non-Catholics. All this points to the fact that Ivana Miličević is an ethnic Croat.
 * However, I wont add anything about her ethnic origin since nothing is proven. Also, some great mind took the liberty of removed the category actors of Bosnia and Herzegovina and added the category Serbian actors, I'll revert this genius act. -- Zec 23:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a hunch that she comes from a mixed marriage, which would explain the conflicting reports on her religious upbringing. Live Forever 16:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you think Ivana Miličević is from a mixed marriage?
 * The conflicting reports on her religious upbringing could just be because of certain people claiming her as a Serb or a Croat (I think as I've explained already that she's probably Croat but I don't know).
 * It wouldn't be the first time that some people have claimed that certain famous people are of the same ethnic origin as they are.
 * -- Zec 19:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Birthdate is Wrong
Ivana Miličević was born in '74, not '78 as stated in the article... and yes, IMDB is wrong too. I'm not going to change the article because that would violate WP:NOR, But she graduated high school, in Michigan, in 1991 (1 semester earlier then the rest of her graduating class). She was 17 when she graduated... thus making it impossible that she was born in 1978.--Isotope23 14:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Her myspace page confirms it is 1974 -- im changing it. reference:   69.142.21.24 22:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And you're misunderstanding WP:NOR -- it's not original research to change a birthdate to the correct date. I can't stand people who cite WP:NOR who do not understand the policy. WP:NOR is so people don't make articles based on actual research they have conducted... it doesn't mean we have to be slaves to pre-published material 69.142.21.24 22:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is you who misunderstand WP:NOR 69.142.21.24... It would have been WP:NOR for me to change it because I saw no source that indicated she graduated in 1974... I just happen to know that she was born in 1974 due to personal experience. For me to change the article because "I know it is wrong", in absence of any WP:V sourcing that proves 1974 is the correct date, would constitute WP:NOR.  While we are citing guidelines and policies... MySpace accounts are usually not considered reliable sources for purpose of verification, so I would not consider anything on her MySpace account to be useful for verification purposes. I could provide very strong evidence that she was in fact born in 1974... but that would involve pulling out some hard copy sources, scanning them, posting them, etc... thus constituting original research.--Isotope23 13:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Croatian or Serbian
It can be verified by Reliable sources that Ms. Miličević is of Croatian descent. WP:V explicitly states verifiability, not truth. Based on this I'm strongly considering adding this to the article and sourcing it of course.--Isotope23 20:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I added a note about her ethnic heritage, with a reference. Hopefully this will end the edits/reversions concerning this.--Isotope23 13:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Look: She is a ethnic Croat. But her nationality is Bosnian because she is born in Bosnia and in Sarajevo.

It is like this:

There are 3 ETHNICITIES in Bosnia.

There are 2 NATIONALITIES in Bosnia.

She is ethnic Croat and there are 3 ethnicities in Bosnia. Croat, Serb and Bosniak.

But there are also 2 nationalities in Bosnia, Bosnian and Hercegovian. She is Bosnian nationality and it was because of that I wrote that she has Bosnian nationality. So, please, dont change that I wrote because it is true that she is Bosnian nationality.

No, it is not. There is no Bosnian nationality.

Conclusion: Her etnicity is Croat. Her nationality is Bosnian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)


 * Nationality relates to state, so her nationality is Bosnian-Hercegovian, or shorter - Bosnian. Hercegovian nationality is nonsense. --Ante Perkovic 13:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Can that person who delete the Bosnian nationality sentense stop with that?

I have already explained why she has Bosnian nationality, so I ask him or her who delete that sentense to stop with that!


 * I deleted it. Since it stated in the beginning that she is from B-H, its redundant to say that her nationality is Bosnian. Why duplicate information? --Ante Perkovic 13:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well Mr Einstein, I changed it again!

Why just write that she is a Croat? When se obvious arent that!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)
 * Well, she is! Even you agree with that since zou didn't deleted that part. --Ante Perkovic 14:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to write that she is a croat then you must write that she is a Bosnian too!!!

Well, I have already changed it 3 times I think so I will stop now. But remeber Ante:

I will changed it again after 12 hours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)


 * I feel stupid talking to a guy who still can't sign his post, but whatever...
 * The article clearly states  Bosnian-American actress. Its extremelly stupid to write it twice. That's all.
 * If that very simple information can't reach your brain cells, than youy have more serious problem than this edit-war. --Ante Perkovic 14:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Now listen Ante!!! Listen carefully!!!

She is not a Croat! She is a ethnic Croat! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)

What's the difference?


 * Did I say the opposite? If you think so, go see either oculist or psychiatrist. --Ante Perkovic 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

When you speek about her and say that she is a Croat then you cant say that! You must say Bosnian Croat. Do you understand now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)
 * Did I wrote anything about her being Croat? No, because, that was already on the page. --Ante Perkovic 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do. Because I can read (unlike you) it on Ivana Miličević : She is an ethnic Croat. --Ante Perkovic 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Because there is a difference between Croat and Bosnian Croat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)
 * No kidding? --Ante Perkovic 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * One question for you: Wht do you claim that Snails can fly?
 * Aha! Now you know how I feel when I read your questions! --Ante Perkovic 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The fight aint over Ante!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)

She is not a Croat. She is a BosnianCroat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)

She is from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Not Kurvatska. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)

She is a ethnic Croat and nationality Bosnian. That you understand also! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahahihihoho (talk • contribs)

When she was attending “Modni Oskar” she said she was Croat, she also said it was funny that she, a Croat was playing a Croat villain in a James Bond movie. Charlize Theron said she had one Croatian friend and that it was Ivana Milicevic.

Ivana Milicevic is born 1978, not 1974.
 * No, she was born in '74. IMDB is incorrect.--Isotope23 13:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment #1 you all both to be WP:COOL for a minute and read WP:CIVIL User:Hahahihihoho and [User:Ante Perkovic. Ms. Milicevic is an ethnic Croat, born in Bosnian-Hercegovian (thus orginially of Bosnian nationality) who later emigrated to the United States and became a citizen.  I have no idea how citizenship works with Bosnia-Hercegovia (i.e. whether or not you relinquish citizenship if you assume citizenship in another country or whether they allow dual citizenship) but I'm assuming she never relinquished her Bosnian citizenship and is now a dual citizen.  for now it is most correct way of stating this is "...she is a Bosnian-American actress currently residing in the United States. She is an ethnic Croat"  This shows her nationality (presumably she still retains her Bosnian citizenship in addition to being an American) as well as her Croation ethnicity.


 * Clear as a day to me for the first moment. It should be clear to anyone with IQ higher of 50. --Ante Perkovic

That girl is really hot! I hope that she can be a star actress in the future.

Bosnian Actress?
I don't think so. She was born in ex-Yugoslavia both her parents being Croatian. They moved and immigrated to America where she was raised and grew up. She can only be an American actress of Croatian descent(ethnic Croat) or Croatian-American actress denoting her ethnicity and her current nationality.
 * See the above discussion; this has been exhaustively covered. She was born in Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, hence she can be referred to as Bosnian-American. just like someone born to French parents in Wiesbaden, and who later naturalized to America, could be referred to as German-American.  This is a designation of citizenship and national origin, not ethnicity; which is why the fact that she is ethnic Croat is mentioned on the next line.  WP:AGF but what is so freaking hard to understand about that?--208.215.25.131 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I don't think so and I can point to you numerous examples on wikipedia where this rule is not followed (see Nikola Tesla, Sinisa Mihajlovic, etc..). Second, she was born in Sarajevo which is Bosnia and Herzegovina but at that time Bosnia-Herzegovina was part of Yugoslavia. Thirdly both her parents are Croats and she as well considers herself to be Croatian(obviously) thus she can only be Croatian-American or an American of Croatian descent. She cannot be Bosnian as she does not live in Bosnia, did not acted or worked in Bosnia and does not considers herself to be "Bosnian" thus effectively all her ties with Bosnia stop with her birtplace. Enough is to say she is an American actress, ethnic Croat and born in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am asking myself what is so hard to understand about that? Afrika Paprika 22:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with Afrika Paprika.

Nationality
Because I'm tired of reverting this this... I'm striking "American" (unless someon can produce verifiable sources that she is a naturalized American citizen) and leaving it as "Actress of Croation descent". That should solve the POV edit war and knocks it back to what is verified (though I have no objection to someone adding American back in if her citizenship can be proven).--Isotope23 12:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That's fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.159.215 (talk • contribs)

Well, in the latest issue of Empire, she said she was Croatian in a short interview (a number of times as a matter of fact). Take it as you will

Look!

She is an Bosnian actress with Croatian descent. That is a fact and you cant write anything else. She IS BORN in Bosnia and Herzegovina and is because of that a BOSNIAN ACTRESS.Hahahihihoho 12:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

i will never accept anything else than the fact that she is BOSNIAN, she is not Croatian because she is not from Croatia!!!

She is ethnic croat but not croatian!!! Hahahihihoho 12:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * She is Croatian as her parents are Croatian and she herself consider herself to be Croatian as well. I've already explained why she is not and cannot be Bosnian actress but only American actress of Croatian ethnic origin or and American-Croatian actress. Get it? Afrika 19:27, August 25 2006 (UTC)

No?

I wrote like this now: She is a American-Bosnian actress and that she is a ethnic croat. If you arent happy with that, then... you should know that I WONT accept anything else than this that I wrote know. Get it? Hahahihihoho 12:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Read WP:OWN... it's not up to you to decide what appears here. I've removed "American" because nobody has actually sourced that she is an American citizen.--Isotope23 05:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ti hihihkikiriki trebaš otići vani i nešto poševiti, a ne non-stop visiti ode i drkati na hrvatice. Get it?

Ne?

Ona nije hrvatica nego bosanka!!!!

Hahahihihoho 12:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hrvatica iz Bosne, ali ipak HRVATICA.

Bosanka je ona!!! Svak koje rodzen u Republiki Bosni i Hercegovini je Bosanac!!!!!!

Pa naravno da je bosanka. Hrvatica iz Bosne. Ali bosanska glumica nije i ne može biti. Niti se školovala tamo niti je glumila u bosanskim filmovima, niti priča tzv. "bosanski", niti joj je Bosna dom(ovina). A i kad su je pitali rekla je da je Hrvatica.

Revert again
Ah, and here I thought after a few days of quiet I could removed the accuracy tag... but alas it is not to be. Ms. Miličević's status as an American citizen is not reliably sourced and based on the near constant edit war here should be left out... in fact simply stating "Ivana Miličević (born April 26, 1974 in Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina) is an actress of Croatian descent[1]..." is probably the best wording since it is the only fully sourced NPOV wording that has been posted here.--Isotope23 19:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * She lives in America since age 5 on what do you base she is not an American citizen? She spent most of her life in America, obviously has US citizenship and has stared only in American series and movies...she's an American as they get. Partially Croatian due to her ethnic heritage. Ridiculous...I can't believe I am even discussing this... Afrika 23:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you are assuming she is an American citizen. No sources have been provided that refer to her as "American" or show she has citizenship... that is merely an assumption on your part.  I know plenty of people who have resided in America for decades without ever getting citizenship.  The burden of proof is not on proving she is not American, as someone born in another country the burden of proof is on proving she is American.  I normally wouldn't make a big deal out of this, but based on the constant edit war about her nationality and ethnic heritage I have to insist that this article sticks only to what is sourced.--Isotope23 01:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are being ridiculous. She lives in America, her whole family moved there some 20 and more years ago. It is quite unlikely that they would be allowed to spend so much time there without having citizenship. Do you understand that or do you need source that the sky is blue as well? Ridiculous...Afrika 15:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to assume you are not American and don't understand how residency and citizenship work in this country. There is no logical correlation between how long they have been in the States and citizenship.  Like I said before, I know people who have resided in the U.S. legally for 3+ decades without ever becoming citizens.  No, I'm simply insisting that information in an article be sourced.  Please read WP:V... and to answer you sarcasm, I can verify the color of the sky by looking outside.  If Ms. Miličević's citizenship were that easy to verify I would not insist on sources.  Assumptions,  even likely ones, have no place here.--Isotope23 18:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok let me put it this way. Writing that she is of "Croatian descent" is wrong unless you are writing that she is an American of Croatian descent. Do you understand that? If she is not an American then she is simply Croatian. It's clear as day. So make up your mind. I will edit the article to say she is Croatian actress instead...if she is going to be of "Croatian descent" than it must be noted that she is an American of "Croatian descent" as this is the only way such a statement makes sense. Agreed? Afrika 02:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit: Heh....right now I noticed that you have already done that. ;-)
 * I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to be a WP:DICK about this and I think it is a reasonable assumption she is American, but because of the constant edit war about her ethnicity/national origin, I have to insist any information added is sourced.  Even an article from a major publication refering to her as American would be fine.  I'd like to keep the accuracy tag up there as well because the article switches between Bosnian and Croatian every couple of days.--Isotope23 11:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is only one solution to this edit war. And that is that Ms Ivana Milicevic is an Bosnian actress of Croatian descent. Otherwise, we can also write American/Bosnian actress of Croatian descent.

There is NO, ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that she is an Croatian actress. No way!!! She is Bosnian cause she is born in Bosnia and Herzegovina and she have Croatian descent cause she is ethnic croat.

As I said before, this is the only solution.

Allahu akbar Hahahihihoho 00:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If she is an ethnic Croat she is Croatian and cannot be anything else. If she would be living in Bosnia then yes we could write 'Bosnian-Croatian' but since she is not she is only Croatian and territorial designation 'Bosnian' is irrelvant and can observed through her birthplace pointed out in the article. Afrika 19:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * comment you can't write "American/Bosnian" unless someone sources the "American" part.--Isotope23 01:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You are soooooo full of sh**. Does it really matter is she serbian or croatian? MY GOD! Someone here said that name Ivana and Tomislav are very rare among Serbs ?!? lol These are south slavic names....and are often used among Serbs and Croats. Bosnians does not exist as a nation. Muslim - that isn't antion at all. It's a religion.

American
I think it would make more sense to provide a source saying she isn't an American. She has lived there since she was 5, has lived there for 30 years, has appeared in mostly American movies, and speaks with an American accent. Every source I looked at says she's lived in America since she was 5, what else do you want? --Cúchullain t/ c 21:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment, "lived in Michigan since she was 5" != American citizenship. That is an inference.  Anecdotally, I grew up in Michigan and I know plenty of people who have lived here legally for decades without getting citizenship.  I'll mark it as uncited for now since the current citation doesn't establish that she is an American, but since this is a WP:BLP I have to insist you find an actual citation that refers to her as an "American actress" or the information will be removed.  I'm not saying this isn't a likely scenario, but in the case of an encyclopedic article and one that has veered well into WP:LAME territory everything about her hertitage needs to be 100% WP:V sourced.--Isotope23 00:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * For starters, one doesn't necessarily need citizenship to be an American. But that's besides the point. The real point is, what evidence is there that she's not an American? Is it really that much of an arguable inference to say that someone raised in America, living in America for 30 years, and appearing in American movies is, in fact, an American? The source I included says most of those things, I think you are expecting too much from a source. Again, I think it would make more sense that someone who thinks she's not an American should have to provide the source.--Cúchullain t/ c 01:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My friend, welcome to hell of the powder-barrel. :-) On Balkan related issues, you need two sources for every sentence if you want your version of the article to stay online for more than an hour :-) --Dijxtra 07:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry Cúchullain, but that isn't the way it works; the burden of proof is on the person adding the information. WP:RS and WP:V are tantamount here because the whole issue is rather volitile. I don't think it is too much to ask that a source be provided that refers to her as "American".--Isotope23 13:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Croatian descent or?
I think better wording would be 'ethnic Croat' rather than 'of Croatian descent'. By saying/writing 'of certain descent' it is implied she is no longer part of that ethnic group but has assimilated into another. For example Lavoslav Ružička was by descent a Czech but he was in every sense Croatian...a patriot even like his father. The current French minister Sarkozy(and possible president in the future) is of Hungarian descent, but he is a French in every sense of that word. Ivana Milicevic is a ethnic Croat(ian) born in Bosnia-Herzegovina where Croats are one of the three constitutive people along with Bosniaks(Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslims) and Serbs.

Reverted "Bosnian"
I reverted this because it is redundant with the statement "Born in Sarajevo in modern Bosnia-Herzegovina" and pretty much invites a return to WP:LAME edit war between Bosnian/Croatian/American designation that appears to have ceased only because someone was on a 30 day block. The best option is to leave the text as "Ivana Miličević (born April 26, 1974) is an actress. Born in Sarajevo in modern Bosnia-Herzegovina, [1][2][3] she is an ethnic Croat. [3][4] Miličević's family emigrated to the United States when she was 5 years old and she was raised in Michigan.". It is sourced, factual, and explicitly states her birth/ethnic/national origin while avoiding language that invites more pointless reversions/revisions to an article that has already seen too many.--Isotope23 14:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Isotope:

I am a new user on Wikipedia and I must admit that it is prefered to mention Bosnian because if you doesnt do that, it is like saying that "Bosnian" doesnt exist. And that is wrong, cause "Bosnian" exist as much as "Croatian".
 * Commment saying she is "Bosnia-Herzegovinan" isn't going to solve anything. Again, saying she is Bosnian is simply going to invite a return to the edit war and is still redundant with Born in Sarajevo in modern Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Unless you can find a source that refers to her as a "Bosnian actress" and add that in with a reference to the external source stating that exact wording, this should be left out... as should "Croatian actress" or "American actress" unless it is sourced.  WP:LIVING is very clear on this.--Isotope23 20:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you completely. I have reverted it to "Bosnian-born actress". I think we can all agree with this and IMO I think it can satisfy both edit-war sides.--Factanista 17:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment... ah you must be new to this page. One thing I've learned since I started editing and watching this page is that nobody can agree on anything and neither side of the edit war are ever satisfied, it's a pissing contest that nobody will let die; see also WP:LAME.--Isotope23 13:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right I am new. You seem to be right...there was quite a lot edit-warring. This guy "Horde Zla" seems to be going around reverting articles to his POV. Also I've looked at some previous people who edit-warred and he seems to have the same style of writing and communicating.--Factanista 14:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, to quote Dijxtra above... "My friend, welcome to hell of the powder-barrel."--Isotope23 14:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL, well thank you. :) Oh and BTW I reported him....looking at his way of writing and communicating I've noticed extreme similarity, identical even, with the user known as Hahahihihoho (sockpuppet Thunderman) who was banned indef. He seems to be evading the block somehow.--Factanista 15:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem, I gave up arguing about it a while ago. I just removed anything unsourced or fix punctuation from poorly done revert warring at this point. In regards to the user, WP:AGF but there are individuals who have demonstrated a willingness to create sockpuppets to continue their POV pushing after a block or ban.  I won't speculate about this specific situation, but if you notice edits similar to a banned or blocked user, notifying admins is always a good place to start.--Isotope23 15:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Revert again
Thunderman, that line of reasoning has already been followed and disputed. Ms. Milecevic was born in Sarajevo at a time when Bosnia was not an independant nation and she moved to America before the disolution of Yugoslavia. You of course can disagree with this, but it is a compelling argument for not calling here Bosnian. Again, unless you can produce a source that specifically refers to her as "Bosnian" and add a cite to the article, this should not be included in the article as it is already explicitly stated "...born in Sarajevo in modern Bosnia-Herzegovina".--Isotope23 22:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

My sweet, dear Isotope:

What in the gods name has that to do with the fact that she is Bosnian? Are you pointing that Ivana Milicevic is a Yugoslav actor? There are people from Croatia that moved to other countries before the dissolution of Yugoslavia and they are counting as Croats, and by the same way, Ivana is counting as a Bosnian.

Bosnian is something that allways has existed, there never were Yugoslav, only communist and some serbs accepted a Yugoslav nationality, all other nations wanted to be Bosnian, Croat, Slovenian, Macedonian and so on.

Your reason is not acceptable because you are keep refering to a fact that never was a fact and never ever will be a fact.

// Pozdrav od Sulejmana Thunderman 23:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Again, you have zero sources for this. Please read WP:LIVING, WP:V, and WP:RS.--Isotope23 00:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that she is NOT A BOSNIAN?

No, you have not! Therefor, I am asking you to stop this riddicully edit war over an thing that is clear to everybody. Ivana Milicevic is an Bosnian acter. Does it bother you?

Even your Croatian friend Ante Perkovic admitted that, so why cant you admit that? Thunderman 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Btw, Isotope, I will put sources, more than one source where it clearly says why Ivana is considered a Bosnian actress. But I cant do it know or in the next 24 hours, because of this riddicolus edit war.

The sources will clearly state why she is considered a Bosnian actress and when I do that, you have no right to take away the clearly stated sources.

Pozdrav // Thunderman 12:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Again, calling her "Bosnian" is merely one point of view... as is calling her Croatian or American. Find a source.  I will leave it with a "citation needed" tag for a few days, but if it is not sourced in a week or so I will continue removing it.  This is not a WP:POINT, it is insistance you reference a statement that has proven contentious if you look at the edit history and is not as clear cut as you like to portray it.  There is much room for interpretation here.--Isotope23 13:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The point is that you cant refear her as a Croatian actress because she isnt born there. It doesnt care that she is a Croat because that fact is mentioned in the article where it clearly says that she is a ethnic Croat.

But the fact that she is a Bosnian actress is because she is born in Bosnia and it really doesnt matter if she was born in Sarajevo, Bijeljina or Siroki Brijeg. All that parts belong fully to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and because of that she is counting as a Bosnian. If she were a Croat or Serb then she is that of ethnizicion and not of nationality.

She is ethnic Croat which is mentioned in the article, and it would also been mentioned if she was serb or bosniak. But the fact is that, everybody born in Bosnia is Bosnian to nationality and because of that, the article must state the fact that she is a Bosnian actress. But, there will also bee politically correct to mention her as a Bosnian-American actress but it is not in the disscusion so far.

The point is however, that she is a Bosnian actress. Because it is a fact that she is born in Sarajevo, a city in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this is not a allegation, this is a fact.

The fact is also that she is a croat, and that is mentioned in the article.

Well, this is all that I could say so far... Thunderman 17:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, Bosnia did not exist as a nation when Ms. Milicevic was born in Sarajevo... nor when she left Sarajevo. You can't rationally consider someone a national of a country that did not exist when they resided in the area the country currently comprises. It would also be incorrect to call her Bosnian-American unless someone produces a source showing that she is an American citizen. Find a reliable source that refers to her as Bosnian and it can stay... otherwise it should be removed.--Isotope23 17:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I will find a american source, bosnian source, and other sources where it states clearly that somebody from Bosnia and Herzegovina, who is born there automatically is a Bosnian.

This is the source I will put after the 24 hours wainting have gone. As for you pathetic "she was not born in Bosnia" talk, that is not true. Bosnia was a republic in Yugoslavia and everybody from Bosnia counted as a Bosnian. Yugoslav never existed, it was just a term used by the evil communistic government who wanted people to believe that they were Yugoslav.

But the people never believed it, especielly not Bosnians.

Pozdrav // Thunderman 18:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thunderman... your comments show clear POV. Find a source that refers to her as "Bosnian", then it can stand in the article.--Isotope23 22:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have many sources know. Will you want me to pick the sources in article ther? Thunderman 15:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Find a source and add it to the article. None of the sources currently in the article refer to her as Bosnian. Simply citing that she was born in Sarjevo does not = Bosnian. Furthermore your contention in your edit summary that the information should stay in the article until you find a source is incorrect... Please read WP:LIVING. No source means it should not remain in the article, though I'm willing to leave it with a cite tag for a short amount of time while you get your source in order.--Isotope23 18:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, Isotope, I cant find the source. They were on the user Afrika Paprikas talk page where he said that it was nowere written that Ivana was Bosnian, then somebody gave him 4 or 5 links where it stated that Ivana is a Bosnian actress.

Now, I cant find it on the talk page. So, wait a couple of days.

Btw... In the first 2 of the sources where it says that she is born in BiH, there is also written that her nationality is Bosnian. Thunderman 21:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Lycos and Yahoo movies are not the most reliable of sources... but I don't have a problem waiting a week until you find the sources you've mentioned. I'm not trying too be a WP:DICK here; I'm just tired of going back and forth on this so I really want to see this solidly sourced.--Isotope23 22:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not the matter of WHEN you will find the sources that I am searching for. The matter is, IF you are going to see the sources. The fact is that the sources lied in the talk page of Afrika Paprika but I cant find it now. If I not find it in the near future, and if I not find it on Google searching, then there is a big possibility that the sources never appear.

But you must be patient, cause it can take more than 2 weeks to find the sources and if that risk is to be done, then you can assume you will se the sources. Thunderman 11:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment don't sweat it. I moved the uk.yahoo.movies.com source that refers to her as "Bosnian" up to the actual text as there are already 2 other sources on her birthplace.  A crappy source is better than no source at all.  Hopefully this is sufficient to end the debate... at least until someone comes here to start adding "American" without a source.--Isotope23 20:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)