Talk:Jötunn

Page scope
I have previously had additions regarding Old English attestations of "thyrs" (OE cognate of thurs) and eotenas removed on the grounds that they are Old English and references to a thurs not a jotunn. If this topic is indeed not relevant here, my added section regarding Beowulf and the flood should also be removed. Furthermore, if a thurs is not to be discussed, my addition regarding attestations in the rune poems regarding thursar should also be removed. Given that the use of jotun and thurs have such a close overlap, they should both be fully discussed. My opinion is also that Old English sources that are contemporary to the Old Norse sources and discuss beings in a consistent manner with the Old Norse sources should be included. Due to the sparse OE attestations, any page solely on them would be a stub and away from a useful context which sheds light on how they may have been perceived. --Ingwina (talk) 19:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Etymological Issues
Though this article is titled "Jötunn", it seems like it is really trying to cover a number of semi-interchangeable ON terms for monsters. This is not necessarily a bad idea, but it suggests considerable reorganization of the material (and perhaps retitling?) might be in order.

Turning more particularly to the etymology of ON jǫtunn, I think we can do better. The idea of "eater" is on the right track, but we could better reference the suggestions of Michael Janda, Eleusis: Das indogermanische Erbe der Mysterien, lnnsbrucker Beiträge zur Sprachwissenschaft 96 (Innsbruck: Institut für Sprachwissenschaft der Universität Innsbruck, 2000), pp. 110-111, which boil down to a PIE *h1ed-uno- "eater" (built from PIE *h1éd-u̯r "eat" and a -uno- suffix also found in the Indic name Varuna), providing a Pre-PGmc *eduno- (perhaps borrowed into Finno-Ugric at this stage) > PGmc (after the First Sound Shift) *etuno-, whence Runic Swedish iatun, classical ON jǫtunn, OE eoten, etc. Joseph Harris includes a wide-ranging discussion of the term (including Janda's suggestions, of which he approves) in an article "The Rök stone's iatun and the mythology of death", in Analecta Septentrionalia: Beiträge zur nordgermanischen Kultur- und Literaturgeschichte, ed. by Wilhelm Heizmann, Klaus Böldl, and Heinrich Beck (Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 2009), pp. 467–501 (pp. 488-493); Harris concludes that the term "perhaps originally designat[ed] a demon who consumes (the dead)" (p. 493). This is, perhaps, more likely that an origin in a concept like "glutton, big eater", regarding which Harris notes "it seems unlikely that such an early mythological term would have taken its name merely from human gluttony or from its projection onto the appetite of 'giants' such as we encounter in the comical forms of folktales" (p. 491). Carlsefni (talk) 15:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Thurs
This article says:

"Thurs" is also the name of the rune ᚦ, which later evolved into the letter Þ.

However, Thurs is mentioned nowhere else in the article. Who was Thurs? — Reinyday, 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)‎

"Thurs" means Þurs, another word for Jötunn (mentioned in the article). The letter Þ (thorn) is pronounced Th, as in "thorn". I altered the spelling for consistency. - Björn Ómarsson 03:24, 11 December 2006‎ (UTC)

Thurs is a reference to the HrímÞursar, or the frostgiants, the god's undisputed rivals, and the thurs rune is both a reference to thor our protector, the slayer of giants, and the ones he protects us from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The letter thorn is the anglo-saxon version of the elder futhark rune, Thurs, they even called their runic alphabet, to mimic the sound of the name: The Futhorc, which was inspired or directly influenced by the old norse elder futhark, so the difference is the region and its representation, it is no name, but may relate to Thor and the dangers the frostgiant pose. in anglo saxon it means protection, and there's a link to the reason why we would plant rose bushes around f.x churches and graveyards. it is in the word 'thorn', this rune represents the treachery of the Frost Giants their dangers. yet there are specific runes dedicated to certain gods.

In example: Fehu first of the runic Ætts (eight rune line/family) dedicated to Freyr, aka Freyrs ætt. next we have Hagal/hagalaz, which begins the ætt dedicated to Heimdalr. Heimdals Ætt last but certainly not least we have the Tiwaz rune, dedicated to Tyr and his sacrifice, as he became the one-handed god. aka Tyrs Ætt.

Tiwaz-Tiwaz-Tiwaz (invocation of the god tyr)

Thurs, may very well have been the rune used to invoke the god thor or even the frost giants themselves. (for protection against the giants) - Rex Jensen 05:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk)

Jötunn in Icelandic
This article says:

In modern Icelandic jötunn has evolved to mean "strength".

This is not true. There are several words for strength in Icelandic, but Jötun is not one of them. In Icelandic, a big, strong man can be galled a "jötun" or "risi", meaning giant. In old-fashioned and poetic Icelandic, someone "going berserk", exerting extravagant strength and being very angry can be said to be in "Jötunmóður", which roughly translates to Giant-mode (e.g. the poem "nú er frost á fróni" (e. it is frost in Iceland) "...kveður kuldahljóð, Kári í jötunmóð...", which roughly translates: "...makes cold-sounds, the wind in Jötunmóður...")

Björn Ómarsson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.247.2 (talk) 1:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed this sentance to: "In modern Icelandic jötunn kept its original meaning" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.247.2 (talk) 12:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Muspellheim - Jotun?
In the article Surt and his race from Muspellsheim are classified as Jotuns, to my knowledge on Norse mythology, they're entirely different beings. The Vanir comes from Nivlheim, world of frost and mist, the Aesir ( Æsene) and the Jotuns where created in the void between Nivlheim and Muspellsheim, the world of fire, where the creatures ar reffered to as Muspells. And there's also indications on that both the Muspells and the Vanir existed before even Ymir came to be. Almost nothing is known about the Muspells, since they don't really show their face until Ragnarokk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.58.227 (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2009‎

.... The sons of sutting will march across the rainbow bridge Bifrostr and crush it as they enter asgaard. Muspelheim, is the fire realm, yet there is another jotunn family known as the sons of misblindi, aka the Fornjót ætt (meaning bloodline of fornjót or directly translated: family of the elder jotunns, their names are: Kari (wind giant) Hlé also known as Aegir /Ægir (god/giant of the sea with his spouse Ran) and of course, the giant of fire himself, LOGI! (not to be confused with the sly one, Loki) actually the root of his name can still be found in old danish terms "Lue" meaning: ablaze, in example: skoven gik pludselig op i lys lue - 'the forest suddenly went bright ablaze' but it has another connection, løgn/lugi/lygid which means a lie told to lead others astray, in danish, swedish, icelandic and even faroese tongues to some extend. the flame will tell you: "come closer, all is safe, it is warm and cozy here, and i will not harm you" yet as soon as you touch him he will maniacly laugh you in the face and you will get burned. that is just one example of how we keep confusing Loki and Logi with each other, it's easy to see why though. Logi is the father of the flame, its very personification, where Loki is the father of Lies, the great wolf Fenrir, Jörmungandr and Hel, and the bringer of ragnarok. a harbinger of doom and to some, he is the very personification of all chaos. But it is no less true, not much is known about muspels sons, unless we talk about from whom odin stole the mead of poetry, after seducing his daughter and tricking her to give him three sips of the mead kept hidden inside of a mountain only to crush her heart and leave in the form of an eagle, spitting the mead he had been seeking to find for so long into the three containers; Boðn, Oðrærir and Són. The name of the afore mentioned lady in the mountain, is none other than the lord of muspels daughter 'Gunnlöð' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk) 05:16, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Frost Giants
I was redirected to this page after searching for the term "Frost Giant," though the word "frost" does not even appear in the article. I am assuming, due to the use of the term "Fire Giant" that this term is not a misnomer. Does anyone know the story of this term? Shouldn't redirects always have an obvious reason within the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.77.189.134 (talk) 07:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * This is most likely because the Marvel universe adopted the Jötunns as villains in their Thor universe under the name "Frost giants". I will instead redirect it to this article on them. AndreasBM (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The lead section does use the term "frost giant" now. wbm1058 (talk) 19:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Not currently. What you cited in the reversal was from the Giant page. But shouldn't the Marvel universe be the first redirect? Or would you say it is common to search for "frost giants" when looking for the jötunn? (I am Danish, so it seems weird to me, but I am of course heavily influenced by my culture). EDIT: I have pondered the question, and I find "Frost giant" to be an unacceptable primary redirect to Jötunn. To be honest, the jötunn are in no way defined by "frost" or "giant", and even though they are mentioned under "Giant", searching for "Frost Giant" cannot possibly be with the Jötunn in mind. With the proliferation of the Marvel universe, it is much more likely that it is the Marvel characters one has in mind. AndreasBM (talk) 12:50, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * This term's primary use is English representations of Norse myth. Usually it's a translation of Old Norse hrímþurs (from which the Marvel Comics use therefore ultimately derives). This article doesn't yet cover the topic, but it will in the future. For what it's worth, a quick Google Books search reveals overwhelming use in reference to Norse myth, and very little in reference to the Marvel Comics use. &#58;bloodofox: (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Bloodofox! AndreasBM (talk) 12:54, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Glad to help! &#58;bloodofox: (talk) 16:28, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * You are redirected here because the 'frostgiants' are called by another word in old norse related to Thurs, Hrím-Thurs/Hrímϸursar, meaning 'frost giants' and trust me, scholars HATE when people refer to the marvel universe, with this subject, when it has no real relevance except that they stole it and UTTERLY RUINED the story behind the connection between odin and loki, its based losely on it yeah, but has no relevance when we're talking old norse, if you base your knowledge on this subject on marvels universe, sorry to say but people will laugh you in the face. &#58; Rex: (talk) 16:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk)

Merger proposal
Following along the button listed above in "What's the difference?", I've proposed that stub be merged into this article. This article already references hrímþursar in the Etymology section. 67.40.38.105 (talk) 09:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)