Talk:Jōsei Toda

Untitled
Good Job! - KenV

this article is somewhat biased. it doesn't take seriously the charges that were levelled against toda and makiguchi by the japanese government. i'm not the one to do it, but someone should write a paragraph about the anti-government activities that these men participated in during world war ii and the specific crimes for which they were convicted. (in all likelihood JUSTIFIABLY convicted.) toda and makiguchi could be seen as "heroic" men of "peace" and "integrity." or they could be seen as boorish troublemakers who engaged in near-treasonous activies at a time when their nation was at war. (an analogy with joe wilson and valerie plane might not be inappropriate.) or a position could be taken somewhere between these two extremes. in any case, the article as it stands needs balance. toda and makiguchi were flawed human beings. they were not saints or martyrs, and the article should make this clear. one of the reasons that i left the gakkai was because i found the behavior of these two men to be questionable. they were being lauded for activities which were problematic at best. these men continue to serve as POOR role models for the members of the organization. jonathan becker former member of the soka gakkai

"near-treasonous activies at a time when their nation was at war" - Openly practicing the religion of their choice is "near-treasonous" - hmm I respectfully disagree. -- Ken V

i assume, mr ken v, that you are a member of the soka gakkai. which hardly makes you an unbiased observer. i attempted to arrange to give back my gohonzon and butsudan tonight (the butsudan had been a gift from a senior member of the organization). but no one in the sgi was anxious to relieve me of these unwanted ritual objects and arrange for my name to be taken off the gakkai's books. apparently, the soka gakkai is like the mafia. once you are in, you are in it for life. and if one does manage to break one's ties with the organization, it is only after a long and arduous struggle. jonathan becker, (almost) former member of the soka gakkai p.s.--toda and makiguchi did more than "openly practice their religion" during world war ii. they criticized their government in a way that, due to the fact that their country was at war, might be seen as "near-treasonous." they didn't merely make their comments in private. they used their positions as well-connected members of the media in order to disseminate their views to the public at large. the analogy would be to american muslims using the press in order to criticize the government's efforts with regard to the war on terror and (implicitly) supporting al quaeda. the activies of muslims such as these might be described as "near-treasonous" not because these individuals are "openly practicing their religion" but rather because they could be seen as (implicityly) giving aid and comfort to our enemies. there is something to be said for standing up for one's beliefs. but there is also a LOT to be said for compromise and flexibility. toda and makiguchi displayed a kind of stubborn, boorish petulance that makes them unacceptable as role models. they would have been more sympathetic had they been more flexible and generally more "nuanced" with respect to the stands that they took. makiguchi and toda pale when compared with culture heroes such as camus and teilhard de chardin, men who embodied compromise and moderation. (what is more, the first two presidents of the soka gakkai were intellectual lightweights when compared with the likes of john dewey.  or shakyamuni himself, for that matter.) p.p.s.--there is something "problematic" about discussing "peace" or calling oneself a "pacifist" at a time when one's country is at war. one might APPEAR to be disloyal, even if in fact one isn't. during world war ii, hl mencken opposed the united states' participation in the war against germany. but he didn't mention this in any of the newspaper columns that he wrote at that time. he was smart. he kept his mouth SHUT. from what i gather, makiguchi and toda were much less DISCRETE about their views.

i was wrong. toda and makiguchi aren't intellectual lightweights when compared with john dewey. they are mental midgets in comparison to dewey.

criminal
josei toda is listed under the category of "buddhist." he should also be listed under the category "criminal." i don't know how to make this addition, but it should be made.

jonathan becker ---

Japan in the 1940’s - A militaristic regime that tortured many of the people who where occupied by their conquerers and deeply mistreated captured troops and brought death and destruction to millions including my own great grandfather and several of my uncles. Anyone who had the uncommon sense to resist such folly is in my mind heroic. - Just my two cents - Ken V

two aphorisms come to mind. "treason is treason no matter whom one betrays" and "discretion is the better part of valor." if you are on the side of "uncommon sense," then i am on the side of common sense. if you are on the side of "heroes," then i am on the side of ordinary people attempting to make it through the day. the actions of makiguchi and toda may appear to be "heroic" to you. but at the time i am sure that many people in japan thought of these men as churlish, boorish, or worse. by "resisting" the "folly" of their government, these two men brought shame and disgrace to their families. i am sure that the members of the extended families of toda and makiguchi lost face as a due to the actions of these two men and suffered mortification as a result. to give a more contemporary example: if i had had children who were alive during the vietnam war, i would not have wanted then to protest america's involvement in this armed conflict. and i would have taken steps to PREVENT them from engaging in such protests. being opposed to the "militaristic" actions of one's government is one thing. actually EXPRESSING that opposition is another. sincerely, jonathan becker

i am not the only person who feels this way. my therapist feels that toda and makiguchi acted in a "boorish" way as well. j.b.

Boorish!!!- during the Japanese occupation of the Philippines my great grandfather was forced my rifle-point to pick coconuts by some sadistic Japanese troops -- my uncle armed with a machete took them on in the jungle and my dad had to hide due to the fact that the Japanese army was killing teenage sons of resisting townships. If Toda acted any less then his convictions there is no way Nichiren Buddhism would have spread beyond Japan -  I am extremely grateful that he was boorish - the more ticked off the Japanese establishment is to his legacy the better I feel. Ken V

Expanding article
This article has not received attention since 2013. There are excellent secondary sources on Toda which need to be cited. Today I created a lede and suggested an organizational structure for the article

Early Life and Educator
Today I added content about Toda's early life. BrandenburgG (talk) 18:20, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Today I completed the "educator" section. Any feedback? In the future I will continue to add sources to this section. BrandenburgG (talk) 17:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Co-Founder of Soka Kyoiku Gakkai
Today I will begin adding content and sources to an expansion of this section. Please provide feedback and add information you can suggest. BrandenburgG (talk) 18:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

A modest start for this section, material drawn from McLaughlin.


 * More work today, drawn from Murata. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 13:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Contributions
Another modest start. More to come, please be patient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 00:51, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Controversies
I started to work on this new subsection. The material on the Raccoon Dog Festival was copied from the Soka Gakkai article. It does seem to fit better here. Additional sources also added. BrandenburgG (talk) 10:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Changed title from Criticisms to Controversies. Expanded the "Tanuki" section. Will start the "Propagation" section soon.

I also added the "Aggressive Propagation" section from the SG article with a few minor tweaks. BrandenburgG (talk) 21:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Feedback requested
Thank you, @Catflap08, for adding the new section on Toda's death. I'm wondering whether we can move it to before "Legacy" instead of after "Legacy." It seems to fit better there IMHO.

Obviously I have done a lot of work on this article and would appreciate feedback. I have just finished examining the White book and plan to weave that into the article. Any other thoughts or suggestions? BrandenburgG (talk) 20:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The article is in somewhat an extension of the article on SGI. Toda being next best thing since the invention of sliced bread etc. . On a general note it hardly contains what one would call serious biographical information – to mention were is was buried was the least I could do. --Catflap08 (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * @Catflap08, can you please find for me the citation for the content you added about the burial of Toda and his wife? Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 19:53, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Well you google the name of either two and you will find sources - just deleted that fact that Toda being buried at temple XYZ is a sign for XYZ. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


 * @Catflap08, I have no idea what you are talking about, "a sign for XYZ." All I am asking for is a citation to support your statement.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 11:33, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Reference added ... even though I find it odd that somebody would doubt the site where a person was burried ... usually marked by a stone of some sort in real life ... here ya go. I would also suggest you read up on how to insert tags so that they show up the way intended.--Catflap08 (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Re-rated
I changed the rating of this article from "Start" to "B-class", to indicate that it now summarizes Toda's life in good detail and without bias. Shii (tock) 19:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, @Shii. I'm making slow but steady progress on fixing up those citations. Thanks for your support.
 * BrandenburgG (talk) 12:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)S


 * @Shii, I'm having a problem with the citations. I think I am doing everything correct with the template. But when I cite a source for the second or third time and save the document, the footnote in the revised page cites the original citation.  I doubled checked into the HTML view and it looks OK with the new cited page references and (sometimes) quotes, so I am not sure what is happening.  Thanks.
 * BrandenburgG (talk) 13:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * @ What you've written on the page is &lt;ref name=Murata> . Unfortunately this isn't the right way to create a link, and will just jumble all the Murata references together. What you need to type is . You can also do more fancy stuff using the sfn template but it's easy to mess up. Shii (tock) 14:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * @Shii, thank you for your help. I made all the edits on this article.  I understand the WP system now better.

@Shii and @Margin1522, I am wondering whether I am understanding the suggestions you made on the SG Talk page. Is the point of "when you list the books in their own section, you can define the ref names there" (Margin1522, October 16th) to place the full citation in a place like "primary sources" and "secondary sources" and then to just point to those sources in footnotes? Is the purpose to reduce the text in footnotes? I tried to do this with two sources, one in primary, one in secondary. Am I on the right track? Sorry, the WP article about this is so dense I get lost in the forest. BrandenburgG (talk) 11:42, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's actually a rather difficult thing to do. I recently did it here: I_Ching and you can see the links from references to the "Works cited" list there. But it's easy to get it wrong and end up with a very messy references list that will be hard for people to follow. Shii (tock) 15:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Please add references
Per wp:verifiability, content needs to be referenced. Please wp:cite wp:reliable sources for your edits. See help:referencing for beginners. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 17:47, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Olivier Urbain
M. Urbain is extensively quoted in this page, but his responsibility as director of the Toda Institute for Global Peace is hidden, though it makes him a highly biased observer... That mitigates the credibility of this page. Unless there are counter arguments, I will erase his quotes from this page. Raoul mishima (talk) 03:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)