Talk:Jacques Parizeau

Dubious Items
"In the 1989 election, Parizeau's first as PQ leader, his party did not fare well. But five years later, in the 1994 election, they won a ***convincing*** majority government."

Convincing seems misleading. The PQ won 44.7% of the popular vote while the QLP won 44.4%. I would reserve convincing for an election where 50+% of seats and 50+% of the popular vote is won. At the very least, a caveat with the percentages should be included. Stats cited from McRoberts, Kenneth. Misconceiving Canada: The Struggle for National Unity. Toronto: Oxford University Press, 1997. 128.189.249.187 (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Education of Parizeau's children
This sentence was deleted without any reason stated. I thought it would be best placed here:

Parizeau used his wealth to educate his children in private schools, bypassing the restrictions of Bill 101.

Is this true? I have no idea. handisnak 04:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the phrase "used his wealth". This seems self-evident: one cannot pay for private schools with charm and eloquence. [And Mr. "Money and the Ethnic Vote" certainly couldn't pay with charm.] Inserting a reference to wealth here seems to be POV and unnecessary. Ground Zero 13:10, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * This sentence was added by now hard banned user DW/Angelique who kept adding all kinds of really biased opinions on all Quebec-related articles. As far as I know, Parizeau had his children educated in a French language private school. Also, going to French language public school does not prevent learning English as a second language (I am the proof of that). The thing about going around Bill 101 makes no sense. I suggest we remove it completely as it goes against the NPOV policy. -- Mathieugp 15:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a hard call. The provenance of the comment argues in favour of removing it. But it would be better to have some evidence that they were educated in a French-language school as the basis for removing it than to remove it because we don't like the person who put it in. If it is true that he sent his children to an English-laguage private school, then it is a relelvant comment because it seems to be hypocritical: "I won't let you put your kids in English education because you're poor, but I have money for private schools so I'm going to." I think the best way to resolve this is to find out whther Angelique's statement is true or not. Ground Zero 15:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Vigile.net has a National Post editorial that says:
 * Both Jacques Parizeau and Lucien Bouchard, the two most-recent past premiers of Quebec, sent their children to pricey English-instruction private schools. But what of less affluent parents?
 * So, until we can find something to contradict that, we should let it stand. Ground Zero 16:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This is a widespread criticism of Parizeau, at least among anglophones. He would prevent regular Quebecers from having their children learn English (which would help them greatly outside of Quebec) but would utilize his own wealth to bipass his own legislation. One of the defamitory things to say about Seperatists is that all they care about is power and that language is just a mask, for example people are quick to point out that bouchard moved to Los Angeles with his American wife. Dowew 18:16, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So wrong on the facts its now even funny. The majority of Quebec children who are schooled in the public French language schools learn English as a second language. English as a second language is mandatory to obtain a high school diploma in Quebec. No law has ever prevented Quebecers to learn English. A quick look at the stats on French-English bilingualism should be enough to convince anyone of that fact. The criticism on Parizeau is that being wealthy, he was able to send his children to a French language private school where it is popularity believed the learning of English as a second language is better (which is probably true). Regarding Bouchard, he lives in Quebec with his wife and children. His wife, Audrey Best, is indeed an American from Los Angeles. Bouchard presently works in Montreal for the laywer firm Davies, Ward, Philips and Vineberg. His childrend as schooled in a French language private school where they will learn English as a second language at the same age as most Quebec children. Much BS is written on Quebec politians in Canada's English language media. CTV Newsnet even wrongfully announced the death of Lucien Bouchard in September of 2005... -- Mathieugp 22:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

It is a wideknown fact that Parizeau`s children were educated (at least in part) in private English schools. While Mathieugp`s claim that no children are ever prevented from learning English in Quebec, it is true. The laws in place however can restrict children from attending public English schools. The argument here is not about whether or not children are prevented from learning English or French, but whether or not they can openly attend the public school of their choice, which some cannot. While French public schools are open for all to attend, English public schools are restricted to those who's, (and I'm not certain on this) either mother or mother and father attended English school. When I last checked, many French public schools were not starting English as a second language until grade 4, while English public schools being teaching French as a second language at the kindergarden level. Even at this rate, many English public schools in Quebec are teaching whole courses in French (such as science, geography, and history) and in some English public schools, the option of these courses in English isn't available. Mr.Wizard 22:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This is correct; if one of the parents was not educated in English, in Canada; children do not have the option to attend an English school regardless of the wishes of the parent. As far as English being taught in French schools; yes - it is taught but badly. English children have the option to attend English schools but in French Immersion programs. Some programs have the curriculum at 80% French enabling the child to be fluently bilingual upon leaving high school. Something denied French children or children forced into the French system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.66.187.69 (talk) 13:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Open choice not necessarily good
The point is that Parizeau never went around the law, which is what the people who propagated this information attempted to do by putting in parallel what most people have no choice to do and what a rich man can buy. This is dishonest and defamatory.

Regarding the question of the "open choice", you are mistaken on the facts and your starting point is that any restriction on individual choice is wrong, which is a dogma. It is only normal and rational to restrict access to something that is detrimental to society. That's why I cannot go to a store and simply buy a gun, buy certain drugs I many wish to experiment with etc. Now, you probably wonder how "educating children in English" may be compared to buying a gun or doing drugs. It doesn't compare of course. I was only illustrating the principle that in our society, "freedom of choice" is not absolute. At some point, if the ability of individuals to choose "something" can have severe consequences on society, we rescrit it. Why is access to English public schools restricted in Quebec? Because in the current context of Quebec society, as a French speaking society inside an English-speaking country, on an English-Speaking continent, providing this "free" choice would lead over 90% of the immigrants it welcomes to choose those schools over French ones. There are even quantity of Francophone parents who would also prefer English schools. To explain you why this is fundamentally bad for Quebec, I won't be able to tell you in only a few simple sentences. You'll have to start studying the Language demographics of Quebec and grasp the concepts of linguistic assimilation, Language shifts etc. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not complete enough to teach you all this. Good readings to start with in my opinion are these two:


 * Le Devoir article on the French language's real power of attraction in Quebec


 * Standing joint committee on Official Languages in Ottawa (1998)

The first one is a translation I have done of a recent newspaper article published in Le Devoir, the second is the transcript of a public hearing featuring the author of the same article.

-- Mathieugp 22:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I invite you to fix my English translation of the article if you see any typo, spelling or grammar mistake. My parents were so poor that they had no choice but to send me to one of those awfull French public schools. ;-) -- Mathieugp 22:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Mathieugp has a valid point. I have witnessed firsthand the desintigration of the quality of French spoken and, more importantly, written by the majority of Quebecers. Many English-speaking canadians have difficulty understanding what a complex language French really is. It counts appriximately 7000 irregular verbs (in comparison with around 2000 in English), as well as a complex grammatical structure. Not only are there more verbs and verb tenses to be memorized, there are more different spellings for each person. Typically, in present tense, Elglish verbs are spelled and pronounced in only two different ways for all subjects. For exaple, the verb to love would be: I/you/they love, he/she/it love. In French, there would be six different spellings for the different subjects. Aimer (to love) would be: j'aime, tu aimes, il/elle aime, nous aimons, vous aimez, ils/elles aiment. There is gender for objects, most of which cannot be guessed and therefore must be memorized. Although a few students write French perfectly, many (even those whose first language is French) do not, making mistakes in verbal homonyms (infinitive versus past participle), conjugation, plurals, gender of adjectives, anglicisms, etc. If these students did not attend full-time French schools, the results would be much worse and the quality of French spoken and written in Quebec would disintegrate raplidly. English, in comparison, is an easy language to pick up, and there is no shortage of placed in Canada to do so. Many Quebecers successfully learn English as a second language. Mathieugp and I are living exaples of this. I can think of many more cases of Francophones who speak perfect English than Anglophones who speak perfect French. Not to be forgotten is the respect of the French language as an art, which is sadly overlooked by many and would be more so should French residents of Quebec be permitted to attend English schools. 70.81.245.118 14:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)vd


 * While this is leading away from Parizeau, I should point out, as someone who studied English, linguistics, pedagogy, and didactics, that one of the fondamental realities with languages is that children have an incredible ease at learning them, and focus ON one language in a school program does not mean focus OFF another, outside of time constraints. Never have my studies of English (or for that matter Latin, Spanish, or Japanese) impacted negatively on my knowledge of French. Quite the opposite. The objective of the MEQ ESL program is to teach children how to "get by" in an everyday situation, not be bilingual. And, except for present company, the objective is both grossly unattained and insignificant. The context of living in a world where English is the predominant language of international business over all others is simply too great to ignore. Not knowing English today is as much an impediment as not being able to read and write. I understand the point Mathieu and 70.81.245.118 are trying to make, but at the same time the larger picture cannot be forgotten, and immersion programs should not be frowned upon, but embraced, for French speakers. Arasaka 02:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Prime Minister or Premier?
This comment is mostly directed at Liberlogos:

I don't feel it's appropriate to call Quebec premiers 'prime ministers' in English, simply because this is not accepted usage. I have never seen any major news organization (e.g. CBC, the Globe and Mail, CTV, the Montreal Gazette) use 'prime minister' to refer to the Quebec premier.

Even the English version of the Quebec Government website gives 'Premier' as the translation of 'premier ministre'.

If you wish to support your usage, please provide some references. Thanks. --Saforrest 02:09, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

I've done a more exhaustive search of the Quebec government site, and the one instance of 'Prime Minister' with Jean Charest I could find was the title of this biography. However, since he is referred to as 'Premier' in the biography text, I strongly suspect that the title was just a accidental translation of 'premier ministre' as 'prime minister'. --Saforrest 02:20, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * Click this link to see one of the many instances where Priminister of Quebec is written on www.gouv.qc.ca:

Google advanced search - gouv.qc.ca - Prime Minister of Quebec


 * There are 441 results. The official language of Quebec is French and the Québec State (l'État Québécois) and Administration uses vocabulary that is often closer to the French and American terms rather than British terms. For this reason, you will see "Prime Minister" as the translation of Premier Ministre, but I do not believe there is an actual policy on this. That is what we would need to find out to know what the official term should be. For now, I believe that it is not clear and it appears it depends on the government in power. Probably, the term "Prime Minister of Quebec" started appearing during the 1960s state modernization. -- Mathieugp 05:16, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree that official policy should settle the matter, and it does not appear such policy exists. With a little more Google searching, I see it is apparently more common to refer to the Quebec premier as a 'prime minister' than I had thought.  I suspect this usage is somewhat associated with a sovereigntist position, was encouraged by the PQ alongside their frequent habit of naming things 'National ...', and was also played down when the Charest Liberals came to office.  (This CBC article supports this interpretation.)  This explains why there appear to be many more instances of 'Prime Minister Bernard Landry' than 'Prime Minister Jean Charest'.


 * You should suspect your own prejudices, 'cause its not solely PQ grandeur to name stuff "national", its actually a ... national dada. For example, the national assembly as been called such way before the PQ got there.


 * I still prefer 'Premier' as it avoids any federal/provincial confusion, but I'm willing to acknowledge that either is correct. --Saforrest 17:18, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * Golly, a comment "mostly directed" at me! What an honor. :P As one can see, "I" am not alone to believe this term is arguably applicable. On this subject, first of all, I would like to thank Mathieugp; most of what I would have liked to say was said by him, and maybe better than I would have. I believe that, in the Canadian system, to which Quebec is indeed subject, the use of premier is colloquial. In fact, First Minister is also applicable to all heads of government. Since Quebecers tend to have this tendency of speaking that peculiar language called French, it can be difficult to find out what the heck is exactly their view on the use of an English term. Adding to the examples brought above, I would like to point out that, in the ONF (Quebec's National Film Board) documentary Le Mouton Noir, Jacques Godbout (not especially known for being a hardliner) presents his interview with Robert Bourassa by speaking of a friend he met in Collège Brébeuf and tells that He is our Prime Minister. So, indeed, I believe premier is unfairly diminishing for this function, but I can acknowledge its legitimate use, and as I stand to say that Prime Minister is as much or more legitimate. Thanks. --Liberlogos 21:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Whether it is legitimate in some sense or not is not the deciding factor. First, we have to have a uniform style on Wikipedia. Premier is the dominant expression already on Wikpedia, so we should stick with it unless there are other issues, such as NPOV, at stake.


 * Second, when there are two competing styles, the current local usage should be the one Wikpedia uses. The expression prime minister of Quebec is instinctively known to be the wrong idiom by the English-speaking minority in Quebec.  When the English media in Quebec and anglophone Quebeckers start to favour prime minister, then Wikipedia should make the switch. Wikipedia, to be NPOV, must be on the trailing edge of such transitions, not on the leading edge of a non-existent trend.


 * It's a fact that the English-speaking minority in Quebec (media included) has a strong bias against expressions, such as prime minister of Quebec, that convey Quebec's distinguising traits... so basing Wikipedia on their methods or style is basing Wikipedia on a very strong POV. Like Liberlogos states below, let the real and widespread local usage (not the colonialist usage) be the deciding factor on this issue. Tremblay 14:44, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * As for Jacques Godbout (I must confess that I do not know his work, so please correct me if I'm wrong) I assume English is his second language. It is not uncommon for second language speakers to make this kind of mistake of idiom.--Indefatigable 22:11, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Godbout is a fluently bilingual. Another movie of his, Traître ou Patriote, has him speak a perfect english with journalist Josh Freed. I do suggest you get to know his interesting work. Bernard Landry insisted on that term. And they're not the only ones. I'm not saying you're totally wrong, I'm listening to you and I'm happy we're discussing this, but I'm giving some information about the other side of the medal. About the importance of the local use... Well, I couldn't agree more. I hope some Canadians do think of that next time they say terms like separatist, french-canadian, province or other utterly obsolete, even prone to be insulting terms for Quebec (french-canadian has been dead and berried for four decades, to the satisfaction of most of us, let it rest in peace). But I don't see why the english-speaking compatriots of Quebec should be the only legitimate representatives of the local use. It still sounds, you know, a little colonialist to think that. I don't know if I'd give sole representation of a culture to the protestants of Ulster about Ireland, to the Arabs of Jerusalem about the Jewish people, to the pied-noir about Algeria... I'd think the same for Canada and its Quebec dispora: I'd listen to the majority also before judging what is legitimate. Finally, I do agree that Wikipedia should not push non-existent practise. At the same time, I'm not convinced 441 occurences in an official source is akin to non-existence. I'd like to hear Mathieugp's opinion, another major contributor to this page and pages of related subjects. --Liberlogos 04:20, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Although it is not a local use, I would like to add this example. While in Britain, Bernard Landry was reffered by the press as Prime Minister. An angry Canadian Briton wrote a letter to one of the newspapers about it. The newspaper stated something similar to what I wrote in my first post: they understood the use of Premier as a *custom* of Canadians and their use of Prime Minister was not partisan for Quebec sovereignty. I also don't think the existence of two terms for one function should necessarily command the suppression of one in Wikipedia. In a text, the President of the United States of America will be given his full representative name first, and this will throughout the text, for the benefit of the prose and its readability, be alternated with President, President of the United States, Commander in Chief, the Chief of State, Leader of the Nation, the American President, etc. In the same way, I thought that the proper standard could be to use the Prime Minister designation (with a link to the page of the function, where the names are addressed) in the heading description and alter with Premier and other terms throughout the text. --Liberlogos 15:32, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on Jacques Gobout. The articles here on his documentaries have intrigued me (thank you for your major work on the articles), and I do intend to see them if I ever get the chance. Nevertheless I still maintain that it is the idioms of Quebec anglophones that determine correct Quebec English, not the idioms of thoroughly bilingual francophones, and not the idioms in unofficial translations of government documents. I don't see this a colonial attitude, but merely a defence of minority rights and respect for minority language groups. Similarly, the idioms of Greek-speakers in Quebec determine correct Quebec Greek. Just as some francophones resist anglicismes, Quebec anglophones (who, rightly or wrongly, see themselves as a threatened minority) resist prime minister of Quebec as a francism. The fact that the use of prime minister can sometimes spark loud protest, while the use of premier causes only a few murmurs from Bernard Landry, demonstrates that premier is the much more neutral term.--Indefatigable 17:27, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * That fact can hardly demonstrate a NPOV because it can also be attributed to the susceptibility to "loud protest" of some... Tremblay 17:48, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In order to settle the matter- Google search in English for: "prime minister of Quebec" 1,330 hits "premier of Quebec" 34,100 hits If someone has access to a CBC style guide, this should supply another point of view on the usage.--Blkshrt 19:30, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This should provide some insight. The Canadian Department of Heritage has a stlye guide for formal addresses. It says that the Premier of a Province should be stlyed Premier, and in French states that the formal address is Premier Ministre. http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/pe/address3_e.cfm Hope this helps. It would support the status quo, which is Premier on the English page, and Premier Ministre on the French one. Mr.Wizard 22:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Premier ministre de l'Alberta
To clarify something, in French we say Premier ministre for all first ministers, provincial and federal. The distinction that is made between the provincial parliaments and the federal one in Canadian English is simply non-existent in Quebec French. At no point in history did Quebec consider the Parliament of the Dominion to be some sort of an imperial power above its head (the Parliament of London was more than enough). However, the politicians who pushed for the creation of the federal level of government certainly did everthing they could to make provincial politicians share this view, using all the political and economic powers they had at their disposal. They were largely successful in Englishs-speaking Canada, but a lot less in French-speaking Canada.

Certainly, the view that the federal parliament is the creation of the provinces and that it should not have any more powers than the ones explicitely defined in the constitution is shared by many people in the Anglophone provinces (not to mention in the US where such thought is almost consensual with regards to their own federal state). -- Mathieugp 21:24, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Premier or Primer Minister
In Québec, we used to say Prime Minister of Québec, at any occasion. But, I think it changed with Jean Charest, who changed for Premier. Probably he thought to have the same title than other Premier of Canada (which is very significative, and very symbolic). Anyway, the official title is now Premier and President of the Executive Council. I'm not sure what was the title during Parizeau, but I think it was Prime Minister of Québec.--Staatenloser 15:35, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Source:

Monsieur
Is anyone know why Parizeau is nicknamed Monsieur in French-speaking Québec newspaper?--Staatenloser 14:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It is the title of a documentary film on Jacques Parizeau, by Francine Pelletier, journalist. -- Mathieugp 17:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The nickname was taken from the documentary, or the documentary was named from the nickname?--Staatenloser 15:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Good question. The documentary states that he is named Monsieur so the documentary is named after the nickname, if the documentary is right. I think I heard it before the documentary, but I started noticing it afterwards. See the amusing article I created, Politician and personality nicknaming in Quebec, for more info about such phenomena. There, I wrote about the name: "Positive and relatively "noble" referral to his famous aristocratic pride and assurance. A documentary named Monsieur was released in 2003 about Jacques Parizeau". Thanks for the question. --Liberlogos 04:23, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I had never heard this nickname before, and I certainly do not believe it was in use during his term as Premier. -- Arasaka, 21 February 2006

"Monsieur" was the nickname of the brother of king Louis XIV. It was given to Jacques Parizeau because his manner of speech, his way of presenting himself, seemed a little aristocratic for some tastes. You can find other, similar, explanations if you google around; they`re mostly in French of course. I believe the nickname was used for a long time by journalists and insiders when talking among themselves, and only seeped through to the public consciousness after many years. --Dr Justice, 1 march 2006

Lisette Lapointe
More information would be necessary on Mrs. Lapointe, whom Parizeau named his personal assistant while he was prime minister (or premier, whatever), and on L'Elisette, not the wine, but the origin of the expression, something I was hoping to find out here. -- Arasaka, 21 February 2006

L'Elysette is a reference to L'Elysée, which is the French equivalent to 10 Downing Street or the White House, i.e. a building that is the seat of political power, and the symbol for said power. The suffix "ette" means it is a smaller, perhaps less impressive, version. (The seat of Walloon government, in Belgium, is nicknamed l'Elysette). I believe the short-lived official residence of the premier of Quebec, in Quebec City, was nicknamed l'Elysette. This project was initiated by M. Parizeau, and was dropped soon after his departure from politics. Some people started calling Mrs Lapointe l'Elisette because 1)the obvious pun with Lisette and 2) the perception that she was either strong willed and assertive, or authoritative (depending on whether you like her or not, which side of the political fence you sit on). Hope this answers your questions. :) --Dr Justice, 1 march 2006


 * Excellent. Thank you very much. I can't help but feel that this should be somehow part of the article. I might work it into the article, it's a nice piece of trivia. I remember the official residence now, which only Parizeau inhabited in all its "officiality". It was on 1080 des Braves in Quebec (technically Sillery back then, I think). But I never knew that IT was L'Elysette! Thanks. -- Arasaka, 2 March 2006

Anti-Semitic Beliefs
Is Parizeau anti-Semitic? If citations were placed in the article, then he could be added to Category:Anti-Semitic people. Octopus-Hands 02:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

When Parizeau was premier he narrowly lost the referendum. At that time he controversially explained the loss by saying that "the ethnics" had voted against the PQ proposition in the referendum. This was taken universally (perhaps unfairly?) in the Rest of Canada (and perhaps by some in Quebec?) as a nativist, racist and possibly anti-Jewish remark. That is, Parizeau was suspected of considering immigrants and non-pure linge Quebeckers as lesser than pure linge francophone Quebeckers. This is the only situation I know of in which Parizeau was suspected of anti-Semitism. Does anyone know of any other remarks or actions which could be considered anti-Semitic? -Grant Schuyler - I forget what my handle is

Assessment
I have assessed this as Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, although it requires more in-line citations and referencing. I have assessed this as low importance, as I do not feel that many people outside of Canada would be familiar with the subject of the article. Cheers, CP 16:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Money and the ethnic vote should be merged in here - that is, if any part of the quote is deemed especially relevant. Frankly, I don't think it is - an external link via footnote would do the trick and anything from the preamble at the top of that page can be merged into Parizeau's article. There is no need for the Money and the ethnic vote as it stands now. Bssc81 (talk) 07:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't really mind the article as it stands, but if it should be merged anywhere perhaps the article on the referendum itself might be better. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 04:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We should note that he actually said "L'argent et des votes ethniques", which is more properly translated as "money and (some) ethnic votes." That doesn't necessarily mean the same as "money and the ethnic vote," which seems to be the common (though inaccurate) anglophone translation. 2602:306:CFEA:170:B447:2EFD:F732:AFF9 (talk) 01:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Separatist
Someone with an IP in the rang 65.94.225.xx that does not want to sign up for an account has been changing 'separatist' to 'sovereigntist' in this article. The reason this person gives is that the term separatist is pejorative. I have never seen it to be, and it seems to be quite a bit clearler to me than sovereigntist. What do others think? Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've request semi-protection for the article. GoodDay (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This has been changed again without any discussion here. I will revert it until there is consensus.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It is better to use the word sovereignist, as it is the word that is commonly used in Quebec (for those of you who live in other provinces and may ask why it is better to use that word). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 (talk • contribs) 03:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I do think we need a consensus before changing something that has been here a while. I actually have no real problem with the change, but still.  My separatist friends have no problems calling themselves separatists, but that is obviously just an anecdote. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think those of us that live in Canada know what sovereigntist means, it means Quebec separatist. However, do other, non Canadian English speaker know this word?  That is the question.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, I see your point, I'm proposing this formula then. "... is a noted Quebec sovereignist (the word commonly used in Quebec for separatist)."

I think that way, thoses who don't know what it means will understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems clunky, but it might do. What do others think?  Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah I am fine with that. -Djsasso (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Now you're learning, Wassup54. Go to the discussion pages, when you wish to make a content change. GoodDay (talk) 21:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Fine, since everyone agrees, can I change the formula or is anyone here want to make another suggestion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassup54 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I still say it is clunky, but that is a style thing. (I have been marking papers, bear with me...)  But the content is ok yeah.Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

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