Talk:Jainism/Archive 1

Making progress
The article, by the aid of wiki's diligent contributors, is making significant progress. Considering the length, perhaps the time has arrived for us arrange the content into sections using sub-headers. Early History, Jain Society, Mahavira, etc. It may provide as encouragement and direct us to what needs to be further written about. Suprisingly, much is written online about the founder and last Jaina, Mahavira. Usedbook 21:42 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Have moved Navkar Mantra to a new page. Need more info. An audio version with correct pronounciation will also help. Chirags 00:39, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Small changes
Added links to Religions_of_the_world, Culture_of_India and India's_independence_movement. Removed link for ascetic as it appeared twice in 2 paragraphs. Removed a duplicate line regarding women attaining moksha. Jay 10:54, Aug 15, 2003 (UTC)

Usage question
Which is proper: "Jain teachings" or "Jainist teachings" ? LirQ
 * My textbooks use Jain as an adjective, so "Jain teachings." --Peter Kirby 20:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Setting it right
I don't get it. If you know that some portions of this article appear to be biased, why don't you set them right or snip them? Just "common-sense" I guess.

Jainas depicted as sinister overlords

 * In India, Jains&mdash;much like Jews in the United States&mdash;are over proportionately represented in positions of economic and political power. I've removed the phrase "much like Jews in the United States". Even if the statement about Jews in the US is true, it has no place in an article about Jainism.

the global diamond market is dominated by Jain-owned corporations. This claim, and the claim that Jainas are overrepresented in positions of power, are each potentially racist. They therefore require serious and substantial reference before being reinstated. Given the fact of De Beers, I am sceptical that such empirical evidence can be found for the diamond claim. I have therefore removed it. Adhib 15:52, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Root vegetables
As part of its stance on non-violence, Jainism goes beyond vegetarianism in that the Jain diet also excludes most root vegetables and certain other foods believed to be unnecessarily injurious.

Could someone explain this? Why is avoiding root vegetables in particular part of a non-violent stance? Josh Cherry 02:06, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Because in eating the root you kill the plant. Jains eat only trimmings and fruits, etc.. which allows the plant to continue living. Sam [Spade] 04:27, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Jains believe in non-violence,and there are living things in grains, vegetables, fruits and water also, however to survive one has feed themself. Therefore Jains have to try kill minimum living things for their food. As rooted vegetables do not receive direct sunlight and therefore, have many more living things in them than the vegetables which grow on the surface. Many persons who follow stricter practice do not consume vegetables and fruits on certain days of a month. User:Jayeshbheda (sig added by Sam [Spade] 17:59, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC))


 * The article, Vegetable Rights could use some cleanup and also benefit from your knowledge on this subject. Please take a look at it when you have time.  --Viriditas 23:03, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So, I'm still not sure which is being avoided - killing the plant, or killing more other things (soil organisms?) than necessary, or both. Also, the article says "most root vegetables", leading us to the question of which ones and what is the distinction. Thank you &mdash; Pekinensis 18:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, this article leads me to believe reaching a conclusion will be difficult, since the author has been asking this question since his Jain childhood, has done some more specific research as an adult, and remains unsatisfied. I know nothing of Jainism. Does anyone more knowledgeable than myself have comments on the article? Thanks &mdash; Pekinensis 15:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

You are right. Idea is to avoid both: avoid killing the plant and avoid killing soil organism i.e. eat discretely just for survival & purpose of knowledge uplifting. That’s the same reason many Jains don’t eat after dark. Violence need be avoided in speech and thoughts too. -ashish

Jains do not eat root vegetables because of our beliefs that root vegetables have an infinite amount of souls. If you cut up a potato and plant it; it will grow. But if you break a grain of rice and try planting it; it will not grow. Also many germs and other microscopic organisms live in these plants. And of course you are killing the plant by uprooting. Jains usually wait for fruit to fall on the ground to eat them instead of picking them. This is what I have been told. --Akhil

Jain cosmology
The mythological description of the four yugas and the twenty-four Tirthankaras is none other than a metaphor for the Precession of the equinoxes. This is an interesting topic for Archaeoastronomy. See Santillana and von Dechend's, Hamlet's Mill for further ref. I suppose I should collect some good sources before editing this section. Unfortunately, you will not find credible sources on Google. --Viriditas 04:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * There are six AARA or YUGAS, not four as you mentioned. However, I will try to understand about "Precession of the equinoxes". Can I help you any way? Jayeshbheda
 * I do not state there are four yugas. This article states it as such: of these upward or downward swings is divided into four world ages (yugas). See Yuga.  The way I understand it, the aara, or cosmic rotation, is merely a subdivision of the yuga.  Here's a question for you:       How long (in years) is each aara?  You will find a relationship between these numbers and the Precession of the equinoxes. --Viriditas 22:45, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The way I have learned it was to imagine a wheel. One side will go down and then go up. This how the main 2 subdivisions are. After that in the descending half their are 6 Aara. The first one is happy and it slowly decreases until the 6th one on the descending half ends. To answer your question on the how long each is: First Aara: is a very long time. the exact number is not known becuase the units used are not units that the modern time uses. Second Aara: is like the first one but shorter. Third Aara: shorter, i don't have the exact figure with me at the moment. Fourth Aara: same story as the Third Aara. Fifth Aara: 23,000 years. In which about 2500 years has already passed by. Sixth Aara: Also 23,000 years. --Akhil

Wikisource:Religious texts
Any chance we can get someone to add the Jaina Sutras to Wikisource: Religious texts? --Viriditas 04:19, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) NO, no, no, no, no. There are an infinate number of YUGAS, as in Jainism, it is all one contiuous cyle. So, firstly, we are not in the cyle mentioned in this article, as this was a misrepresentation by other many years before, we are now in the upward part of the cycle, hence our discovery of electricity and various other forms of technology. Once we head back into a downward era, we will loose much of this as technology was lost between us and the creation of the Pyramids. This is stated in a much better way by Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri in his book The Holy science. Futher more, the years that are contained within, lets say a year of the Brahma, can be calculated and has been a breakdown of the years can be seen in the book Attreatise on Cosmic Fire by Alice Bailey. While this book is mostly rubbish, and affiliated with a cult, the afore mentioned passage I found Very usefull.

Thanks for letting me rant, please could someone make the relative changes, after checking my facts. :-)

Still biased
Unfortunately, this article is rather biased. Many religions like to imagine that they are as eternal as their gods, as well as self-evident, with no debt to any other religion. It is not, however, the place of Wikipedia to reproduce ahistorical religious propaganda from the point of view of its adherents. Could we please stop reverting to the propaganda, and finally delouse this entry of its bias?

yeah, that was -really- non-biased there.

Bias against Buddhism
The article asserts that Jainism is a seemingly eternal, endless truth (which its worshippers may believe, but others will not) and dismisses Buddhism, which non-believers would consider to be contemporary of Jainism, is simply an offshoot of it. No academic sources for either of these assertions are given. This religious grandstanding is not in keeping with Wikipedia's desire for neutrality.

Penile force
So, can someone tell me how "Jains have been a important and penile force in Indian culture..."? I went ahead and took it out since it didn't really make any sense to me unless Jains are the source of penises in India. - Mr d logan

Perhaps the author meant "penal" rather than "penile". Big difference! :D

Charge of Bias
The charge is that a religious zealot is editing the article and adding parochial content. Au contraire, mon ami. Recently added material contains verified and accepted facts with regard to the origins of Jainism and its influence on Buddhism. References have been included. The article clearly states that the idea that Jainism is "eternal" is itself a religious belief. The stated notion that it is a belief is a fact, and apart from this belief, verifiable historical dates are included. What is the problem with that? Similarly, if an article on Christianity states that Christians believe that the God of the Old Testament created the earth, is that a case of "religious grandstanding" or simply a description of the religion? Moreover, Mahavira is regarded in neither academic nor religious circles as the "founder" of Jainism (i.e., the one to whom the Jain religion/tradition/philosophy owes its origins). This being the case, the above claim that "non-believers" would consider Jainism as having been co-founded with Buddhism appears to be the personal bias of whoever is stating so. All evidence from both non-Jain and Jain primary sources points to pre-Mahaviran origins, and almost all if not all scholars accept the existence of at least Mahavira's predecessor Parshva (877-777 BC).

Please explain in what way Buddhism is being "belittled" and the article displays "religious grandstanding". If you have actual counterevidence to any information in the article, you are free to include it. If not, then the label placed at the beginning of the article -- calling it disputed -- seems unwarranted and an injection of bias. Wouldn't you agree?

Removed POV
Removed the POV tag. I am not convinced whosoever put that tag has made the point succinctly.

Abhijna

Another comment
If this faith numbers 10 million adherents and has been historically confined to the Indian subcontinent, how is this qualifying as a "major world religion"?

I have made an edition in the general overview of the religion. its an ugly thing to say that a religion is overy represented in any field and there is no way that claim can be verified. content on this site must be non controversial and we need to get that "disputed" away. there are a lot of revelations here even for me, a lifelong Jain. kudos to whoever wrote the general introduction to jain philosophy.

--- Response to the above comments :

1. 10 million adherents currently. However, there is a preponderence of evidence that the religions of Jains, Buddists and Hindus are intertwined. Chandragupta Maurya followed the Jain traditions, his son Bimbisara was most likely an atheist while his son Ashoka the Great followed and propogated the religion of Buddha. Gandhi was influenced by the concept of "ahimsa" borrowed from Jain religion to launch the freedom struggle which influenced billions of people to this day. So evidently in a space of two millenia the same religion influenced two great persons of their time. [See Chandragupta Maurya, Bimbisara, Ashoka and Gandhi in wikipedia]

If one counts the number of adherents as a factor to qualify as a "major" religion, then the largest religion will be "atheism". If an influence of a religion in affecting a day to day life of a human is counted then yes, the religion of the Jaina is a major religion.

Does the article's statement that the religion of Jaina is a major world religion belittles other major religions?

Abhijna

Clean up needed
The following isn't very clear: "Jains have been an important presence in Indian culture, contributing to Indian philosophy, art, architecture (a Jain temple or derasar), the very famous Jain temple Dilwara at mount Abu that stands as one of the most glowing examples of architecture, and the Bhagwan Adinath derasar built in the small town of Vataman being a recently constructed example. sciences and last but not least the politics of Mohandas Gandhi which led to Indian independence." Could someone clean that up so that it makes more sense? I'm not sure where it's supposed to be headed... Dismas 23:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

--- The above details should belong to Contribution of Jains, further the Contributions of Jaina to the Hindu Religion on one hand and the contribution of Jain philosophers to the sciences of Mathematics also need to be separated out and detailed.

Latest edits -- please read this before adding anything.
I am a devout practising Jain, as is my family on both sides (both my maternal and paternal families have been Jains for as far as we have records). I've learnt and recited Jain prayer since I was 5 yeas old. I know Jain tradition very well and have spent all my formative years in India. Several edits were added recently are are not appropriate as reasoned below (therefore they were removed).

Edit#1 ''Note: Some Hindu writers over the past century and a half have promulgated the notion that all things, people, places and events from South Asia's past are "Hindu". The label tends to apply itself non-Hindu religions as well. This modern "Hinduizing" of non-Hindu religions would appear to be an anachronism inspired by ideological interests, since the term "Hindu" itself is of Persian origin from the Islamic period ("Hindu" being the Persian form of "Sindhu", i.e., the Indus River to which "India" owes its name.) '' Removed because: This is an academic point since Hinduism pervades every aspect of modern Indian life. The origin of Hinduism is not relevant to this page and neither is the talk about Hindutva or other modern politics-du-jour.

Edit#2 There was also points about Hindu temples and mosques created over Jain temples.

Removed because: This is sketchy in evidence, geographically limited and in purpose (intentionally done or by force ?). Either way, this is moot since destruction of Jain, Hindu and Buddhist temples by Islamic invasions was many orders of magnitude greater, is documented and was official Islamic policy anyway. Talking about this issue muddies the waters substantially and I feel is not appropriate for this page.

Lastly: I have re-added the fact that in practice, Hindu texts, functions, gods and customs are accepted and followed by Jains. (not via scripture which I HAVE read but in PRACTICE). This is true for both sides of my family (in Uttar Pradesh and Delhi) and I also know that in practice, Vedic avatars are said to be earlier Tirthankars. This is not some Hindutva influence but common practice. I identify myself as a Jain first, not Hindu but I do believe in several asepects of the Veda, Ramayana and the Mahabharata as does my family and other Jains that I know.

Does anybody have any evidence of Janism's connection with IVC? I know books written about IVC decades ago used to mention it, but recent excavatations and recent perspective about IVC doesnt mention anything about its relation to Jainism. Any help?

Please do your research. There are vast numbers of jain temples that have been converted to hindu temples and it is still occuring, epecially in the south of india. There are jain carvings in living rock that are being destroyed because hindus use that rock as a quarry for their temples, and do not regard the ancient jain carvings as important. I am not sure whether more have been destroyed by hindus in the more distant past, versus in the mogul times. Tushar Mehta

Response to: "Latest edits -- please read this before adding anything."
Perhaps it would be nice if certain contributors could refrain from using this entry as a vehicle for Hindu propaganda and revisionism. Recent claims are not only unfactual and unsubstantiated, they are naked displays of the belief that Hinduism is superior to Jainism.

"It is important to note that Jains are culturally intermingled with the Hindus. They participate in the celebrations of many Hindu traditions and festivals."

While there is some truth to this, the reverse is also true, but omitted (the intended meaning being "Hinduism is better/greater than Jainism"). In Western countries such as the US, many Jains, Hindus, Jews, and others celebrate Christian festivals such as Christmas and Thanksgiving. This and other cultural "interminglings" do not make Jainism, Hinduism and Judaism offshoots of Christianity nor subordinate to it.

"I have re-added the fact that in practice, Hindu texts, functions, gods and customs are accepted and followed by Jains. (not via scripture which I HAVE read but in PRACTICE). This is true for both sides of my family (in Uttar Pradesh and Delhi)"

This is a personal opinion accompanied by hearsay. Some Jains might read the Bible, Koran, and other religious texts for historical interest or general knowledge. So what? Contemporary Christians might read Zen scriptures, Islamic poetry or Kaballah writings for some purpose or other. A Reform Jew in America might take inspiration from the writings of any living religion. Does that have any bearing on the origins or place of Christianity or Judaism? Maybe this entry should attempt to describe Jainism as opposed to personal feelings, hearsay and the recreational habits and side interests of one's family network.

Thank you! The comment that you responded to was very unacademic. When commenting on jain philosophy, it does not matter what his/her family does or believes, it matters what the philosophy states. If commenting on jain culture, his/her ideas are relevant but must be rescearched regarding their sociological relevance. There are, of course, many jains that i know, including myself, who mainly follow jain teachings, appreciate the writings of all religions, but have no special bias for hinduism above and beyone any other religions.

Tushar Mehta

Jain Prakrit

 * Halló! Jain Prakrit referes to Jainism but not vice versa. Regards Gangleri | [ Th] | T 20:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Added quote from textbook
Added a quote from a World Religions textbook by two scholars stating "Jainism was established in its historic form by Vardhamana, called Mahavira..." They acknowledge the existence of earlier philosophers upon whom Mahavira based and developed teachings. --Peter Kirby 09:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

RE: Added quote from textbook
Lengthy excerpts from other copyrighted works seem to defeat the purpose of Wikipedia. Copyrighted texts cannot be edited or refined by users.

Also, the two quoted texts are generally redundant with other material in the article. Please excercise discretion and try to shorten them.


 * I have shortened them. --Peter Kirby 00:56, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Irregularity
Hey, all. In the "...Faiths Originating in South Asia" section, it is stated that Mahavira was a senior contemporary of the Buddha. If you follow the links to both teachers' articles, their life dates are at odds with the seniority statement. Maybe someone with more knowledge on this particular aspect could figure out whether the life dates or the seniority statement is correct, or which one is more correct, blah blah. Good luck. Eduardo Cuellar 21 Aug 2005

NPOV
Hey, all. While I respect the scholarly approach someone has made in adding the material stating that Buddhism is most likely an off-shoot of Jainism, I am somewhat disheartened (as, apparently, have been other people) by the dominating, "only-my-view-is-right" insistence that has been shown by the contributor. I hope that my perception of you, dear contributor, is entirely wrong. I added the NPOV tag, and hope it stays. As evidence to show that your strong assertions regarding Jainism/Buddhism should not be presented as the most likely view, I will quote the online Catholic Encyclopedia's article on Jainism :

"Jainism bears a striking resemblance to Buddhism in its monastic system, its ethical teachings, its sacred texts, and in the story of its founder. This closeness of resemblance has led not a few scholars—such as Lassen, Weber, Wilson, Tiele, Barth—to look upon Jainism as an offshoot of Buddhism and to place its origin some centuries later than the time of Buddha. But the prevailing view to-day—that of Bühler, Jacobi, Hopkins, and others—is that Jainism in its origin is independent of Buddhism and, perhaps, is the more ancient of the two. The many points of similarity between the two sects are explained by the indebtedness of both to a common source, namely the teachings and practices of ascetic, monastic Brahminism." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08269b.htm

At the very least, allow the NPOV tag to stay. Eduardo Cuellar 24 Aug 2005

NPOV removal/update
My apologies for working in such a convoluted fashion, but I have decided to remove the NPOV tag I myself put up, and have instead incorporated the Catholic Encyclopedia quote shown above into the article. Keeping the NPOV tag up makes the page look tacky. Eduardo Cuellar 24 Aug 2005

RE: "NPOV removal/update"
Please explain where in the Catholic Encyclopedia quote is the "evidence" that the data regarding Buddhism's relationship to Jainism is not "the most likely view"? The same Catholic Encyclopedia you quoted also misrepresents Jain practices (the rat den in India is a famous temple of the Hindu god Ganesha, and not a Jain shrine) and then classifies them as "absurdities". The entry is perhaps a century old or older and reflects the then prevailing negative view of not only Jainism but South Asian religions generally. The scholars named -- Weber, Jacobi, etc. -- are all from the 19th century!

Your material gives no clear or direct response to the evidence you wish to contradict, but rather propagates yet another unsubstantiated and unsupported assertion about Jainism and Buddhism (that they are offshoots of "Brahmanism" -- another archaic reference to Hinduism). Unless you can provide solid evidence for this newly introduced claim that Jainism is an offshoot of Brahmanism, the quote should be either properly qualified or removed.

RE:RE: "NPOV removal/update"
Yeah, I now recognize that my source is not the best one. Not being a scholar on this particular subject by any means, I will have to settle for your strongly worded implications that Buddhism began as an off-shoot of Jainism. I have removed my quote. Eduardo Cuellar 27 Aug 2005

RE: "NPOV removal/update"
Your candor and regard for facts is appreciated. The evidence is what it is, and the references may be consulted by anyone interested.

Recent supplement by Rcscwc
On 8 September, Rcscwc tacked a huge amount of new material onto the very end of the article. At a glance, it looks like there's a considerable amount of usable material, but an undetermined amount of it is either redundant or needs to be cleaned-up and merged-in properly. I moved the bulk of this user's addition to the Beliefs and practices section, added section headers, and added a template, but obviously there's still a lot to be done here. &mdash; Ringbang 22:51, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

History of Jainism
This article suggests has major inaccuracies about the history of Jainism at two places, (first at the beginning, second in the section "Jain Ethics"). The first reads: "archaeological evidence from the Indus Valley Civilization (c. 3000–1500 BC) has been cited as attesting to the faith's early existence as shown through seals and other artifacts unearthed since the civilization's discovery in 1921."

I do not believe this is true. Yes, some Jain practices may have a parallel in the Indus Valley Civilization, but they most likely made their way into Jainism via Vedic religion. From an Academic Point of View, Jainism is supposed to have started around the middle of the Upanishadic period. I would like the author of the above statement to cite their source of the "archeological evidence"

Second, in Jain Ethics, it reads: "Jainism is an ancient religious system, as old as Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. It was founded by Rishabh Dev, a minor deity in Rig Veda. Subsequently it was expounded by a line of 23 other teachers."

This is also completely untrue. Jainism originiated in the middle of the Upanishadic period, and for the Hindus, the entire Vedic period passed before. Also, many scholars believe that many Hindu practices have their roots in the spiritual activities of the Indus Valley Civilization. "Rishabh Dev" of the Rg Veda is not necessarily the founder of Jainism. Most world religions start out by tracing their lineage to an older deity / mythological person. For example, Christianity & Islam start with Adam. Mohammed wrote himself into the Abrahamical tradition to gain legitimacy, and it is likely that Jainism did the same. Also, it is possible that the Rishabh in the Rg Veda is different from the Rishabh in the Jain tradition. In the Academia, it is widely understood that the "line of 23 teachers" didn't actually exist, but was written-in to provide historical grounding to Jainism in its early days.

I have removed both sections from the article.

~abhi

Excuse me, this is a extremely uninformed and biased comment. Please do a little intelligent research.

RE: "History of Jainism"
Scholarly references in suppport the statement regarding the Indus Valley Civilization were provided at the end. You are saying that you don't "believe" the statement is true, but this is merely your opinion. You have not provided evidence in support of any of your own half-brained Hindutva claims that Jainism is an offshoot of Hinduism, nor have you refuted the evidence in the references provided. There is also no evidence whatsoever that Jainism originated from the Upanishads as you propose. The 23rd Tirthankar Parshva (877-777 BC) is widely accepted by serious scholars as a historical figure who lived before most of the Upanishads were composed (between the ninth and fifth centuries, BC). Your counterclaims of Hindu superiority stink of the Hindu inferiority complex which compells some Indians to believe grandiose nonsense about their past -- e.g., that Indians invented airplanes, atomic bombs, test tube babies, etc. as told in the Mahabharata -- and cannot be taken seriously. Whoever recently added the claim (which you quoted) regarding Rishabha in the Rigveda need not have, however almost all of the Hindu Puranas (e.g., the Bhagavat Purana, Matsya Purana, and most of the others) and related literatures name Rishabha the son of Nabhi as the founder of Jainism and a major early ruler, and name his son Bharat as the king after whom the country of Bharat is named.

On the subject of the Indus Valley Civilization, a number of famous Indus seals depict ascetics in a position identical to the meditative pose of the Tirthankaras described in Jain scriptures -- the so-called "cow-milking pose" in which the meditator squats and balances his body weight on the balls of his feet which are situated on the floor/ground, while balancing the weight of the upper body on the heels which are joined together beneath the hindquarters. This meditative pose is found nowhere else in South Asian literature, religion or tradition but in Jainism. While there might appear to be similarities between Hinduism and Indus artifacts, that same exclusivity cannot be claimed vis-a-vis Hinduism. T.N. Ramachandran in "Harappa and Jainism" (cited in the article) examines other Indus artifacts and makes compelling arguments. Please try to be informed before demonstrating otherwise.

These are excellent and intelligent comments amar -- but your personal attacks seriously undermine your message.

Putting up a clean up tag
Language of this article especially the Jain Ethics sections is unencyclopedic. 220.224.48.119 10:29, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Jainism / Ethnicity
The article alludes to Jains' status in society. Do all Jains come from a single ethnic group? (Similar to Judaism) Or something different? Ashmoo 04:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Ancesters of most Jain people would have have converted to Jainism centuries ago. Most Jain known are having their roots in Indian Subcontinent. So they do belong to same ethnic pool. Now, How the recent converts to Jainism get classified is a question. Chirags 00:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The introduction
I think the intro needs a bit of work. Looking at the Islam, Hinduism, Christianity & Buddhism pages, I think the intro should focus more on the number and location of its adherents, the time and place of its origin and how it fits in with other religions. Specific beliefs of the religion should be saved for later sections. I'll wait a few days for comment before overhauling the intro. I mean no disrespect but feel the intro should be brought into line with the other major religion entries. Ashmoo 02:43, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag
I just added an NPOV tag to the article. The debate over the history of Jainism needs to be resolved before the tag is removed.

Debate on History of Jainism
I wanted to clarify a few things about what I said and what has been said about my entry: 1. By asking for Scholarly references, I asked for specificity. Beyond "its in a book by Ramachandran", i'd like to see the book's publisher's name, and the page number. this is pretty standard in the academic field. This also goes for the Purana reference... can you point me to the verse that says "Rishabha the son of Nabhi was the founder of Jainism"? 2. At no point did I claim that "Jainism is an offshoot of Hinduism" or that it "orginiated from the Upanishads". What I said, was " Jainism originiated in the middle of the Upanishadic period". There is a significant difference between the two claims. 3. I think it's absurd for anyone to suggest that I'm a "half-brained Hindutva" activist, or that I was arguing about the "superiority" of Hinduism. I am simply stating that the historical 'claims' made here are not true. The meditative posture, contrary to the commentator's belief, is pretty clearly described in the Yogasutra as well, and is shared by Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism. 4. Also, if you actually do some research, you'll realize that there is quite a large debate over where the name "Bharat" comes from (for the nation)... it's not a widely accepted "fact" is it is being made to sound here.

I think that we should resist the temptation of making personal attacks on people if we dont agree with them. Let's at least _try_ to maintain some decorum.

The former Tirthankara and former Buddhas
I should add that a large number of Jain idols, from the Kushana period have been found. Many of them have the names of the Tirthankars inscribed in Brahmi. They include among seated images: Vardhamana, Sambhava, Suvrata, Rishabha, Arishtanemi, Parshva; and among standing Vardhamana, Arishtanemi, Parshva. The idols of Lord Rishabha can be identified even with an inscription, by the long hair. His long hair are mentioned in Jain texts as well as in Bhagavata purana (below).

When studying the history of Jainism and Buddhism, something is often ignored. The existance of multiple Sramana teachers, in addition to Vardhamana Mahavira and Siddhartha Gautam.

Of special note is the order of Ajivikas, mentioned in a few Mauryan inscriptions and some of the Jain and Buddhist texts. It is apparent that the Ajivika order existed before Makkhali Goshal. At one time Gautram Buddha accepted an food invitation from a group of Ajivikas. One of the first persons to meet Siddharha after his bodhi was an Ajivika.

It is also of interest to note that Ashoka built a memorial at Nigligawa to Buddha Konagamana, a former Buddha, and several memorials to former Buddhas existed during the time of the two famous Chinese visitors Faxien and Xuangzang.

Buddhist texts mention that fact that Devadata was in fact a senior member of the Buddhist Sangha and had significant number of followers, prince Ajatashatru was close of Devadatta. his split with Siddhartha was due to his insistance on more rigorous life-style of the bhikkhus. The sect of Devadatta was encountered by the Chinese visitors, followers of this sect visited the memorials of the former Buddhas, but not that of Siddhartha.

About Brahmnaical puranas and Rishabha, son of Nabhi.

It is indeed true that practically all brahmanical puranas refer to Lord Rishabha, the sone of king Nabhi. The best known account occurs in Srimatbhagavata. The account makes it clear that teachings of Lord Rishabha caused the establishement of Jainism.

Let me quote some of the text in translation by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupâda.:

...........

Chap 3: Rishabhadeva's Appearance in the Womb of Merudevî, the Wife of King Nâbhi Chap 4: The Characteristics of Rishabhadeva

Thus .. most exalted in as well his bodily features as in having all the qualities as described by the poets, did the father thus give Him because of His strength, beauty, fame, .., the name Rishabha, the best one.

Of his sones was indeed the eldest, Bharata, a great practitioner of yoga; he had the best qualities and it was he of whom this land was called Bhârata-varsha by the people.

Chap 5: Lord Rishabhadeva's Teachings to His Sons

Lord Rishabha said: 'My dear sons: This body carried by all within this material world … is worth the trouble of the austerities and penances for the sake of the divine from which the heart becomes purified and for certain an unending spiritual happiness is found. Although He remained with what He was at home, accepted He, only physically, like a madman with his hair unkempt, the sky for His .dress and roamed He, .., far and wide from Brahmâvarta.

6: Lord Rishabhadeva's Activities Lord Rishabhadeva who Himself was free from any vital interest. He on His own traveled the lands of South India: Konka, Venka and Kuthaka in the province of Karnâta, and reached a forest nearby Kuthakâcala. There .. He … wandered around naked and with scatted hair. ....

Hearing of His pastimes of being free from all ritual and custom, took the king of Konka, Venka and Kuthaka who carried the name Arhat to an imitation of them.

..........

Jains and ethnicity
No, the Jains are ethnically diverse. Some Jains are native to Punjab (Bhavada) and Haryana (Agrawals), while some are native to Tamilnadu (Nayanar etc). There are some Brahmins who are Jain. In 50's a few dalits accepted shravak vratas, a dalit Jain monk was Acharya recently. There have been Jain acharyas born in Khatri, Jat and Brahmin communities.


 * Agreed, but then are all these part of same Indian Ethnic Pool? Or do we define them as different Ethnic groups ?Chirags 00:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jainism&action=edit&section=36
 * They are different ethnicities, intermarrige between hindus and jains of the same ethnic backgroud is not (and has traditionally not been) uncommon, and probably more common than marrige between jains of different ethnicities or hindus of different ethnicities. Though most modern day jains are ethnically Marwari/Gujarati and historically were mostly confined to vaisha caste professions due to their principles of non-violence.

RE: Debate on History of Jainism
I wanted to clarify a few things about what I said and what has been said about my entry: ... ''2. At no point did I claim that "Jainism is an offshoot of Hinduism" or that it "orginiated from the Upanishads". What I said, was " Jainism originiated in the middle of the Upanishadic period". There is a significant difference between the two claims.''

And what is your evidence that Jainism originated in the Upanishadic period and that the historicity of Parshva is false and that the large body of Buddhist, Jain and Hindu histories which suggest an early origin for Jainism are incorrect?

''3. I think it's absurd for anyone to suggest that I'm a "half-brained Hindutva" activist, or that I was arguing about the "superiority" of Hinduism. I am simply stating that the historical 'claims' made here are not true. The meditative posture, contrary to the commentator's belief, is pretty clearly described in the Yogasutra as well, and is shared by Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism.''

If so, then live up to the standards that you have set and quote the specific text of the Yogasutra which describes it.

''4. Also, if you actually do some research, you'll realize that there is quite a large debate over where the name "Bharat" comes from (for the nation)... it's not a widely accepted "fact" is it is being made to sound here.''

'''There is no debate on this matter worth taking seriously. People either accept the unanimous and clear statements of most of the Hindu and Jain Puranic literatures or they do not. If you disagree, then do cite your counterevidence.'''

Upanishads and History of Jainism
It is very hard to talk about the Upanishadic period. It is impossible to date them with any precision. Vajrasuchika, a major Upanishad is often thought to have been composed by a Buddhist scholar Ashvaghosha, in 1-2nd cent CE! Thus the term "Upanishadic period" is inappropriate.

Re
Do you actually have evidence for this or are you just making another unsubstantiable claim? ~abhi

RE: Debate on History of Jainism
''3. I think it's absurd for anyone to suggest that I'm a "half-brained Hindutva" activist, or that I was arguing about the "superiority" of Hinduism. I am simply stating that the historical 'claims' made here are not true. The meditative posture, contrary to the commentator's belief, is pretty clearly described in the Yogasutra as well, and is shared by Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism.''

'''Whoever wrote this is misinformed at best and a lying deceiver at worst. Evidently the facts don't matter to people like this who argue aimlessly. The Yoga Sutra of Patanjali in no place describes the meditative posture described in Jainism and found on the Indus seals.'''

Yogic posture
The oldest known representation of a person in a yogic meditatative posture (padmasana) is on an Jain ayagapatta, consecretated by Simhanadika, found in Mathura, with a Brahmi inscription on it. It is also famous for the representation of ashta-mangalas.

You can see an image at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jainhistory home page.

Yogasutra citation
HYP Chapter 3 Asanas: sutra #37 Describes the Padmasana... I dont think it requires too much to realize that this is only a small variation from your 'jain meditative posture'. I assume that you are referring to the Pashupati seals of the Indus Valley Civilization: If you read western scholarship (Read Gavin Flood's Introduction to Hinduism for example), you will find out that the person who is showed in these seals is widely accepted (in the academic circles) to be a "proto-shiva", or an early Shiva. I have never read _any_ western scholarship (which should definately be free of "hindu fundamentalists") that suggests that the Indus Valley Civilization people were jain. In fact, the great bath at mohenjo daro, and the chambers around it suggest that they believed in ritual cleansing like modern Hindus, and the Pashupati seals, as well as mother-goddess figurines show that they practiced idol worship.

Western Academia dates the Upanishadic period from 900BCE to 300BCE... (some say 1000BCE-400BCE, some say 800 -200, but they are all in this 'zone'). Thus, Rishabh Deva, dated at 877BCE would still be inside the Upanishadic period. You can consult _any_ western text on Hinduism for these dates.

Also, Indus Valley Civ. seals show somethings that are not compatible with Jain religious thought: 1. The presense of Gods... How can you account for Pashupati? 2. The mother-goddess figurines? 3. There is no evidence of major ascetic practices until the Aryans arrive.

I am not suggesting that IVC people were Hindu, but they couldn't have been Jain either. Western Scholarship does say that 'Rishabh Deva's' existence is plausible, so i'll give that to you, but this still doesnt substantiate the pre-Upanishadic claim.

What is the dating for the ayagapatta whose picture you linked to? (please provide a citation).

Also, to clear something up, even though my religious beliefs are irrelevent to this discussion, they have been brought up way too many times in this discussion, so i just want to say that I'm not actually a "Hindu" at least for the common understanding of the word. As you may know (if you've read anything about the etymology of the word, the word "Hindu" described anyone east of the Indus (and west of the Himalayas) who wasn't muslim. I may be Hindu in that sense, but my religious beliefs are not based on standard Hindu theology. I am senior in college (that means i'm about to graduate), and I'm majoring in Religious Studies (i.e. a critical study of religion) at a renowned liberal arts university in the US. I have taken seven courses in Hinduism so far, and will be taking two more next semester.

About Idol worship
There is considerable interdependence among Indian religious traditions. Thus sometimes it can be hard to trace the origin.

Idol worship is intimately connected with Brahmanical Hinduism today. However it should be noted that in the Vedic religion, not only there was no idol worship, idol worship was actually condemned. Manusmriti cricizes brahmins who served as priests of idols.

Idol worship first became common in Jainism and Buddhism, and later it came to be used for the Puranic and even vedic gods. Swami Dayananda Saraswati (founder of Arya Samaj) has cricized the Jains for having introduced idol worship in his Satyarth Prakash.

Amba/Ambika, the mother goddess, is also a Jain goddess. I could be wrong but I think some of the oldest representations of Amba/Ambika occur in Jain tradition. The oldest known representations of Lakshmi are found in Buddhist iconography (stupas of Sanchi and Bharahut), and the oldest known idol of Sarasvati was installed by Jains (it was found in Mathura).

My comments on one of the above statements "Idol worship first became common in Jainism and Buddhism" ... my view is that there were always sects that did not believe in idol worship and sectarial offshoots that believed in them. The classic case is the split in jainism between the Digambaras and the Swhethambaras and within Swethambaras between Sthanakvasi and the Deravasi. Some of the Deravasis are in fact called "murti-pujaks" literally "idol-worshippers", while Sthanakvasis are not always associated with idol worshipping. All this sects reflect different philosophies regarding idol worship, where some sects eschew them and others adopt them. So making a statement that "idol worship first became common in Jainism and Buddhism" is a baseless statement. Further the statements attributed to Dayanand Saraswati are without any citations, unless the citations to his statements are provided, it can be safely assumed that he is quoted out of context. User:Abhijna

About chronology
Normally people think that historians can (and have) satisfactorily established the dates of major historical events. Actually this is not true.

Sopme events can be dated with reasonable approximation. The rule of Maurya King Ashoka can dated with an error margin of only a few years, because he mentions several contemporary western kings in one of his edicts. Events around the time of Lord Mahavira and Buddha can be dated with an error margin of perhaps a few decades with some certainty, becuse two independent traditions confirm some of the events.

We have to note that with the exception of some Anuradhapur findings (which have been dated using radio-carbon dating, which also has an error margin), the oldest known inscriptions in India are from the Maurya period. Thus you can not expect corraboration using inscriptions for events prior to the Maurya era. Also the common building material in ancient India was wood (not stone) and a large fraction of the ancient cities stood on the banks of rivers, thus archaeological evidence should not be expected in all cases.

The oldest event in Indian history that can be dated is the Mahabharata war, perhaps with an error margin of a few centuries. It is not really possible to make a meaningful attempt to date events before that. That does not mean that they did not happen, just that they can not be dated.

Coming now to the "Upanishadic period."

There are numerous (more than 200) Upanishads, composed at different times. For Vajrasuchika upanishad, it is generally believed to have been written by a Buddhist acharya. Some even attribute it to Sankaracharya, which would make it 8th century AD. See Vajra-Suchika Upanishad (Word document) at http://www.dharmicscriptures.org/scriptures.htm

"Allopanishad" was actually composed during the time of Akbar, the Mughal emperor.

Thus "Upanishadic period" is really an inappropriate term.

The date of Yoga sutra
I must comment about Yoga-sutra, the famous text on yoga by Patanjali.

It must be noted that the Patanjali who wrote the Mahabhashya commentary on Panini's Ashtadhyayi, lived in 2nd cent BCE, he was a minister of the Sungas. However the author of Yoga-sutra was a different Patanjai, who may have lived in the 2nd cent CE, perhaps even as late as 6th cent CE, according to some scholars.

For a discussion of the three scholars named Patanjali see: http://www.kofibusia.com/level_2_patanjali/patanjali.html

Yogasutra shows significant Jain influence. For example, it mentions the five mahavratas.

In India, various religious traditions mutually influenced each other. There are many principles and practices in Brahmanical Hinduism that originated from Jainism and Buddhism. It may come as a suprise to many, but these include: idol worship, vegetarianism, rath yatra, Dipavali festival, celebate monastic orders, perhaps even the law of karma.

It could have been other way around too! I am tending to view this interactions positively since it allows various distinct thought processes to be active within the mainstream. Just like tributaries of a big river. User:Abhijna

The date of Ayaga-pattas
I am looking at "Mathura: The cultural heritage", ed. D.M. Srinivasan, 1989. It is a collection of papers by experts in their respective sub-fields delivered in a seminar. It has a whole article on Sihanadika ayagapatta, but no date. In another article by N.P. Joshi, it is mentioned to be pre-kushana. Joshi also mentions a 2nc cent BCE lintel showing the diksha-kalyuanaka of Jina Rishabha, where he sits in padmasan. He is always easily identifiable because of long hair.

ANTIQUITY OF JAINISM
(In the interest of supporting excellent colloborative initiatives of the Wikipedia fellowship and encouraging discussions in the true jain spirit of anekanta (multiplicity of viewpoints), I have taken the liberty of submitting the following article, quoted verbatim for some background insights regarding the antiquity and history of Jainism. I sincerely hope that many of the following viewpoints could be incorporated into the Wikipedia with concurrence and assistance from all. ~ aant)

ANTIQUITY OF JAINISM

Ancient history of India reveals that there were three major religions in India. They were Brahaminism, Buddhism and Jainism (Nirgranthas). Latest research and excavation at Mohenjodaro and Harappa has shown that Jainism existed before five thousands year ago, even though Jains believe it to be eternal.

"There is truth in the Jaina idea that their religion goes back to a remote antiquity, the antiquity in question being that of the pre-Aryan, so called Dravidian illuminated by the discovery of a series of great late stone-age cities in Indus valley, dating from third and perhaps even fourth millennium BC" 1

Claims of Eternity

Naturally the followers of every religious faith proclaim their religion as having its source in antiquity and Jainas are no exception to this. The traditions and the legendary accounts prove the existence of Jainism as eternal. Jainism is revealed again and again in every cyclic period of the universe by forty-eight Tirthankaras (twenty-four in each half cycle). The Jainas divide the whole span of time into two equally spanned cycles, namely, Utsarpini and Avasarpini. During Utsarpini, there is a gradual ascendancy in moral and physical state of the universe, while during Avasarpini, the case is just reverse, i.e. the gradual descent of moral and physical state of universe. Each of these two is subdivided into six aras each extending from over crores of years to twenty-two thousands of years. This time-cycle goes on endlessly and humans like us rise to be Tirthankaras (Jina) at regular intervals. They, themselves, practice the eternal principles of Jainism and attain omniscience (Kevaljnan) and preach and expound us the same.

Pre-Aryan Roots

Almost all the scholars agree that Jainism has Pre-Aryan roots in the cultural history of India. As Dr. A. N. Upadhye remarked -- "The origins of Jainism go back to pre-historic times. They are to be sought in the fertile valley of Ganga, where they flourished in the past, even before the advent of Aryans with their priestly religion, a society of recluses who laid much stress on individual exertion, on practice of a code of morality and devotion to austerities, as means of attaining religious Summum Bonum." 2

In the same vein Joseph Campbell, commented "Sankhya and Yoga represented a later psychological sophistication of principles preserved in Jainism. They together are theory and practice of a single philosophy." 3

Other scholars such as Prof. Buhler 4, H. Jacobi, J.G.R. Forlong, Dr. Hornell, Pt. Sukhalalji, Prof. Vidyalankara, Acarya Tulasi, Prof. G.C.Pandey and others believe that Jainism is one of the earliest known religious systems prevailing in India amongst the non-Aryan races which belonged to Indus valley civilization.

In the Buddhist scripture Majjima Nikaya, Buddha himself tells us about his ascetic life and its ordinances which are in conformity with the Jain monk’s code of conduct. He says, "Thus far, SariPutta did I go in my penance. I went without clothes. I licked my food from my hands. I took no food that was brought or meant especially for me. I accepted no invitation to a meal." Mrs. Rhys Davis has observed that Buddha found his two teachers Alara and Uddaka at Vaisali and started his religious life as a Jaina. 5

In Dighanikaya’s Samanna Phal Sutta, the four vows of Lord Parshvanath (who flourished 250 years before Mahavira’s liberation) have been mentioned. Attakatha of Anguttara Nikaya has reference to Boppa Sakya a resident of Kapilvastu who was the uncle of Buddha and who followed the religion of the Nigganathas i.e. Jains. 5

Critical and comparative study has brought to light several words like ‘Asrava’, "Samvara’ etc., which have been used by Jains in the original sense but which have been mentioned in Buddhist Literature in figurative sense. On the basis of these words Dr. Jacobi has concluded that Jainism is much older than the religion of Buddha and therefore it is incorrect to imagine Jainism as the off-shoot of Buddhism. 5

Some historians think that Jainism is, no doubt, much prior to Buddhism, but it is a protestant creed which revolted against the sacrifices of the Vedic cult. The advanced researchers show that the above stand has no foundation. The respectable and reliable sacred books of the Hindus themselves establish the most ancient nature of Jain thought. Rigveda, the oldest Hindu scripture refers to Lord Rishabha Deo, who was the founder of Jainism. It also talks about Vaman Avtar-incarnation, who is the 15th incarnation amongst the 24 incarnation. Rishabha’s name comes as the 9th incarnation Vishnu. Rishabha’s name occurs before Vaman or Dwarf Ram, Krishna, and Buddha incarnations. Therefore it is quite clear that Rishabha must have flourished long before the composition of Rigveda. The great scholar Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, ex-president of Indian Union, in his ‘India Philosophy’ had observed, "Jain tradition ascribes the origin of the system to Rishabhadeva, the first Tirthankara. There is no doubt that Jainism prevailed even before Vardhaman or Parsvanath. The Yajurveda mentions the name of three Tirthankaras-Rishabha, Ajitnath and Arshtanemi. The Bhagwat Puran endorses the view that Rishabhadeva was the founder of Jainism." (Vol. II, p. 286) 5

The excavations made at Mohenjodaro and Harappa show that Jainism existed five thousands years ago, because the pose of the standing deities on the Indus seals resembles the pose of standing image of Rushabhadeo obtained from Mathura. The feeling of abandonment that characterizes the standing figure of the Indus seals, three to five (Plate II, I G.N.) with as bull in the foreground may be the prototype of Rishabha (Modern review Agust 1932 - Sindha Five Thousand Years Ago). Rishabha has been spoken of as Yogishwara by the poet Jinasena in his Mahapurana. Therefore, the Indus valley excavated material glaringly establishes the fact that the founder of Jainism belonged to the pre-Vedic period. The nude Jain idol of 320BC, in Patna Museum, of Lohanipur helps us to support the above contention. 5

The renowned Jain scholar Prof. A. Chakravarty’s researches have brought to light priceless material which proves the most ancient nature of Jain thought. When the Aryan invaders had come to India, the Dravidians, who inhibited this land vehemently opposed them. The Rigveda Aryan thinkers refer to these Anti-Aryan Dravidians as enemies and therefore, called them in uncomplimentary terms. They were called ‘Dasyus’. The Aryan god Indra is hailed as Dasyushatya, slaughterer of Dasyus. These enemies were styled as ‘Ayajvan’-non sacrificing, ‘Akraman’ without rites, ‘Adevaya’ indifferent to gods, ‘Anyavrata’ following strange ordinances and ‘Devapeeya’ reviling the gods. They are described as black skinned and ‘Anas’, snub-nosed. The other epithet was ‘Mridhravac’ unintelligible speech. Oriental scholars are of opinion, probably rightly, that these races of Dasyus who opposed the Aryans were the Dravidians, who inhabited the land, when the Aryans invaded the country. They are called ‘Sisnadevas’, because they worshipped the nude figure of man. 5

The critical study of some Vedic Hymns like Nadsiya Sukta shows that there must have been a peculiar current of thought existing in the pre-Vedic period which influenced the Vedas. Dr. Mangaldev feels that "Jain Philosophy might be a branch of the pre-Vedic current of thoughts. Some Jain terms like ‘Pudgal’ - matter supports the aforesaid point." 5

A glance over the glorious past of Jainism reveals the fact that the lives of Rushabhadeo and the succeeding twenty-three Tirthankaras had deeply impressed the entire world culture. When the Alexander invaded India he came across a host of nude Jain saints in Taxila whom the Greek writers call ‘Gymnosophists.’ The Greek word connotes the nude philosopher. The mystic group of Israel, called the Essenes, was much influenced by these ‘Gymnosophists’, who were preaching their message of Ahimsa, the central truth in Jainism to the people of Alexandra in Egypt. Historical records tell us that the Greeks were much influenced by Jain thoughts. Alexander had taken one Jain saint, Calanes. With him to his country. 5

It is to be noted that the Essenes of Israel were ascetics following the tenets of Ahimsa. They had great hold upon the people and they commanded deep influence in Palestine. John the Baptist was an ascetic teacher of this school of Essenism. Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity was much influenced by John’s Non-violence cult and other teachers of Essenism. In six hundred B.C. this cult of Non-violence was progressing beyond Syria and Palestine. The Jain teachings has also influenced Pythagoras, the philosopher of pre-Socratic period, who flourished in 532 BC and led the non-violence way of life. During this period Lord Mahavira, the 24th Tirthankara, whom the ignorant people called the founder of Jainism, was living. Perhaps Lord Mahavira’s teaching had influenced the people of far off countries. 5

In his book, The Magic of Numbers, E. T. Bell (p. 87) tells that once Pythagoras saw a citizen beating his dog with a stick, whereupon the merciful philosopher shouted, "Stop beating that dog. In this howls of pain I recognize the voice of a friend…For such sin as you are committing he is now the dog of a harsh master. By the next turn the wheel of birth may make him the master and you the dog. May he be more merciful to you than you are to him. Only thus can he escape the wheel. In the name of Apollo, My father, stop or I shall be compelled to say on you the ten fold curse of the Teteractyas." This reveals the effect of Jainism. 5

Process of Synthesis

Evidently, with the emergence of Upanisada era (about 800 BC and after) the process of synthesis of non-Aryan Sramana and Aryan Vedic cultures started. The social, economic and political interaction between Aryan settlers and their more advanced non-Aryan brothers, enriched their knowledge of the former. They began to interpret their Vedas in the light of this enhanced knowledge. At this stage, a recapitulation of periodic division of early Indian history would be of some interest to understand the long process of integration of the non-Aryan and Aryan cultures, Roughly, the period corresponding to 3500 BC. to 1500 BC is considered to be the period of Indus valley civilization of non-Aryan races in India. This coincides with the Sumerian and Akkad civilizations of Middle east, prospered in about 2300 BC. (They were also river valley civilizations) and Minoan civilization of Crete. Thus the period corresponding over two thousand years can be carved out for River valley civilization which spread over northern and western parts of India extending upto Saurastra in Gujrat. It is a story which is five to six thousand years ago. 6

Aryan invasions of India dated approximately before 1500 BC, i.e., about three to four thousand years ago from today, practically coincided with the Hellenic invasions of Greece. They seem to have brought some portions of Rgveda and other Vedas with them From 1500 BC to 800 B.C. -- a period of about 700 years may be termed as Vedic and subsequent Brahmana period. Brahmanas elaborate the rules and details for the employment of the Mantras or hymns at various sacrificial rituals. As a result of which the priestly class, with sole and exclusive right of performing rituals gained much social prominence and virtually dominated the society. During this period the Aryans had completely settled and had fully vanquished the non-Aryan races. These were being absorbed in their social structure principally as `Dasyus' absorbed in their social structure principally as `Dasyus' (labor class) and were treated as second class citizens. However, the Aryans had tremendous capacity to absorb and to assimilate all new things of life. They not only adopted many cultural and philosophical thinking of their non-Aryan brothers, but also enriched the same by their own original thoughts. They realized that beyond this mundane existence as well as after life, there is something distinct. For attaining that something the propitiation of gods by sacrifices and offerings of livings beings is not the way. When acquainted with the non-Aryan theories of austerities, non-violence, Karma and soul, they realized that something, the aim of their pursuit could be apprehended by working on these theories. This becomes quite evident when in Chandogya Upanisad Rsi Aruni explains to his son the newly found secret of the real nature of the self, not taught to him during the course of the long term of his education in existing Vedas (Ref. to the dialogue between Aruni and his son Svetaketu in Chapter on "Ontology of Atman" in this book). Naciketa of Kathopanisad goes to Yama (God to Death) to learn the science of Atman (soul) by asking the question "When a man dies, does he still exist or not? " Thus there was a fervent intellectual agitation in the post-Brahmanic period when the Rsis of Upanisadas began to challenge the usefulness of sacrificial rituals and began to apply their mind objectively to the teachings of Sramana traditions of ancient India. This trend had started long before Upanisadic period but it gained momentum only during that period.

Twenty-third Tirthankara of Jainas, Parsvanatha, recognized now as a historical person, flourished during 872 to 772 BC, the time when the Upanisadas were getting on full swing. Like his successor Mahavira, Parsva also had a great organizing capacity. He organized the Sramanic order and propounded `Caturyama' of four principles namely Non-violence (Ahimsa), Truth (Satya), Non-stealing (Asteya) and Restrictions on possession (Aparigraha). His Sramana teachings had great influence on contemporary thinking. And with the advent of Mahavira (526 BC) the time became ripe for the final and decisive assault on priestly Brahmanic culture of rituals and violent sacrifices. Both Mahavira and his contemporary Buddha (563 BC) led a relentless crusade against the social and cultural evils prevalent at the time. This crusade went on with such a vigor till 8th century A. D. that, but for the advent of the great Sankara, who assimilated Sramana ideas of Buddhism with his brilliant exposition of Vedanta. Vedic culture would have been practically eclipsed throughout India. Now the Sramanic ideas of non-violence, karma and soul have become so much identified with the Vedic culture that there is absolutely no difference between the attitude of a Jaina and a Hindu towards life's problems, individual or social. These attitudes are so identical that unless one tells you that he is a Jaina by religion you cannot make out from his behavior that he is a non-Hindu by faith. 6

References

1. Prof. Zimmer: Myths and symbols in India Art and Civilization. 2. See: A Cultural History of India, Clarendon Press, Oxford, P. 100 3. Prof. Zimmer: Philosophies of India, Ed. Joseph Campbell, see editorial, p. 60 4. Prof. Buhler: Indian Sect of Jainism 5. Diwakar S. C., Glimpse of Jainism, Published by Shri Bharatvarshiya Digambar Jain Mahasabha 6. Mehta T. U., The Path of Arhat A religious Democracy, Published by Parsvanath Sodhapitha

Document source: http://www.umich.edu/~umjains/jainismsimplified/chapter20.html

Reorganizing the article on Jainism
The article has some very good information in it. However I suggest, that we reorganize it.

I believe that the main Wikipedia article should be such that that a non-Jain will be able to read it without too must effort. We also need to make it visually more attractive by perhaps adding some photographs or pictures. I will try to see if I can get some.

We should have some specialized information on Wikipedia also, for those who are looking for more detail.

I believe that the article on Buddhism is an excellent example to follow.

I think we should bring out the geographical diversity and rich heritage of Jainism in India. I think some discussion of overseas Jainism should also be very interesting to the readers of Wikipedia. We should also bring out the Jain contribution to Indian culture (literature, sciences, architecture etc).

To illustrate Anekanta, we should mention active involvement of the Jains in inter-religious dialogs at regional as well as international levels.

Yashwant

RE: Yogasutra citation
HYP Chapter 3 Asanas: sutra #37 ''Describes the Padmasana... I dont think it requires too much to realize that this is only a small variation from your 'jain meditative posture'.''

'''This is an ignorant statement. Padmasana (the lotus posture) and the meditative posture depicted on the Indus seals are obviously different. In the padmasana the person certainly does not squat down and balance his weight on the balls of the feet as the Indus seals show and as the Jain 'cow-milking' meditative position is described.'''

I assume that you are referring to the Pashupati seals of the Indus Valley Civilization: If you read western scholarship (Read Gavin Flood's Introduction to Hinduism for example), you will find out that the person who is showed in these seals is widely accepted (in the academic circles) to be a "proto-shiva", or an early Shiva.

'''You obviously have only a pedestrian knowledge of early India, and rely on your own fabrications and what others tell you to believe. Calling the Indus figure "proto-Shiva" or Pashupati is speculation. The Indus script has not been deciphered and there is no basis whatsoever to apply so anachronistic a label as the Sanskrit "Pashupati". Nonetheless, almost everthing about the figure suggests the classic Jain ascetic or Tirthankar, including the presence of humans and forest animals surrounding the figure in the seal image (which are reminiscent of the Samosharana of the Tirthankaras). '''

''I have never read _any_ western scholarship (which should definately be free of "hindu fundamentalists") that suggests that the Indus Valley Civilization people were jain. In fact, the great bath at mohenjo daro, and the chambers around it suggest that they believed in ritual cleansing like modern Hindus, and the Pashupati seals, as well as mother-goddess figurines show that they practiced idol worship.''

'''Here's a suggestion. Stop worshipping what white people say and learn to use your own brain for a change. Just because your white idols can't accept or notice the obvious and strong affinities between some Indus artifacts and the Jain religion doesn't mean they are right in ignoring them. The evidence speaks for itself.'''

''Western Academia dates the Upanishadic period from 900BCE to 300BCE... (some say 1000BCE-400BCE, some say 800 -200, but they are all in this 'zone'). Thus, Rishabh Deva, dated at 877BCE would still be inside the Upanishadic period. You can consult _any_ western text on Hinduism for these dates.''

'''You are again confused. Parshva the 23rd Tirthankar, and not Rishabha the first, lived from 877 to 777 BC. Rishabha lived many centuries earlier as attested by the Hindu historical literature already mentioned above.'''

''Also, Indus Valley Civ. seals show somethings that are not compatible with Jain religious thought:'' ''1. The presense of Gods... How can you account for Pashupati?'' 2. The mother-goddess figurines?

'''This is a good point. There is no reason to believe that the Indus people followed only one religion. For example, it is known that influence arrived from Mesopotamia through trade interactions.'''

3. There is no evidence of major ascetic practices until the Aryans arrive.

'''Nonsense. There is no way to determine whether the Indus seals which depict asceticism were created with or without Aryan influence.'''

'''And you are again parroting what your white idols are telling you regarding the Aryans. The idea of an "Aryan Invasion" of India has been undermined by considerable evidence to the contrary.'''

Re:

 * This is a legend I've seen several times being espoused among Hindutva nationalists and the like: that their propaganda has succeeded in, as you call it, "undermining" the many decades of serious scientific work by linguists and historians that support the invasion theory. However the Aryan Invasion theory has most certainly not been "undermined". In reality no serious scholars continue to support anything other than a non-Indian origin for Aryan language and religion. Because of this lack of support for what is essentially a fringe theory, having this one page supporting a revisionist version of history is not only innacurate and POV, it's also out of line with the rest of the wikipedia, which by default seems to take the neutral mainstream historical community's view on the invasion. --86.135.87.145 01:50, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

response to some bizarre claims
First, i would like to thank 86.135.87.145 for reintroducing rationality into the discussion. Now, my answeres to some bizarre claims that have been made by the Jain right wing activisit: 1. If you can't see the striking similarity between Padmasana and the Pashupati seal, I guess i have nothing to add there. What I am saying has been suggested by other people on this message board, and is a association that is standard in both eastern and western scholarship. 2. the reason that 'entity' is called is Pashupati, is because he's surrounded by beasts, and appears to be a supernatural being, thus Pashupati, ie. Lord of the Beasts. If you are about to challenge the 'supernatural' adjective, he _clearly_ has horns. I dont know about what you believe about IVC people, but i think suggesting they have horns may not be very scholarly. Again, the proto-shiva association is a standard reading, as the two share a lot of commonality: ithyphallic state, for example. no jain statue seems to have an erect penis. Samosharana? Does his references include an ithyphallic state?? If it does, please do inform me. And if it doesn't, perhaps you should look at a better resolution image of the seal. 3. i think i'd rather follow my "western idols" than follow your wild speculation about history. I think _most_ people would agree with me that your version of history is the revisionist version: attempting to claim that IVC was a jain civilization. Not only is this bizarre, it's also based in complete speculation. The evidence _does_ speak for itself, and thus one can see the root of the Hindu cleansing rituals from the Bath at Mohenjo-Daro. 4. This was simply a typo. I meant to say Parsva, i.e. the first historic reference of Jain practices. Please note, however, the Parsva did not organize the religion, rather, Mahavira borrowed his ideas to develop Jainism. Again, both western and eastern scholarship support this. Obviously, you have no respect for the academia and only rely on geocities websites on Jainism. by the way, i did look up the site references you gave: i dont think a geocities website, and the website of a jain student's club can be considered scholarly sources. 5. the "aryan invasion". again, you're trying to put words in my mouth. At no point did i use the phrase "aryan invasion". It is a fact that very few historians support this theory today, and i dont believe in its validity either. However, this is significantly different from suggesting that Aryans were of a non-indian origin. If you read some non-jain writing, you will read that Aryans are believed to have started out in Turkey and migrated to different parts of the world, arriving in India via Central Asia. There is significant "linguistic" evidence of this. You may know that Sanksrit and non-dravidian languages are in the indo-european language group. I also speak both Sanskrit and German, and the two have a lot in common. Unless you are suggesting that Aryans originated in India and moved to Europe (which is not supported by the time scale, but is claimed by many Hindu-spremacy groups), there is really no other way to explain this except the Aryan Immigration, and there isn't significant debate against what I am saying. If you can, show me your references for claiming that Aryans were essentially Native to India.

RE: response to some bizarre claims
'''Deferring to an anonymous smokescreen of 'academia' or 'western scholars' to shield your deeply help beliefs against criticism is unimpressive. Disparaging or dismissing sources without responding to the content of the points and arguments therein also suggests intellectual feebleness and incompetence. Either respond to the specific points that are being made or don't respond at all. For example, you made a thoroughly bogus claim about the Yogasutra, and it was responded to. Then you changed your stance to talk about the padmasana meditative position:'''

''1. If you can't see the striking similarity between Padmasana and the Pashupati seal, I guess i have nothing to add there. What I am saying has been suggested by other people on this message board, and is a association that is standard in both eastern and western scholarship.''

If you insist that in the padmasana position the meditator squats on his haunches and balances his weight on the balls of his feet as the Indus seal shows, then your level of ignorance in the matter is quite clear.

''2. the reason that 'entity' is called is Pashupati, is because he's surrounded by beasts, and appears to be a supernatural being, thus Pashupati, ie. Lord of the Beasts. If you are about to challenge the 'supernatural' adjective, he _clearly_ has horns. I dont know about what you believe about IVC people, but i think suggesting they have horns may not be very scholarly.''

'''Denying the more likely possibiliy that the "horns" are simply a religious headdress or other symbol and insisting it to be a "supernatural" thing only (i.e., pertaining to a Hindu god or deity) is fanciful and unsupportable, let alone unscholarly. The same headgear/ornamentation/symbol is found on other Indus seals which depict asceticism. For example, another famous seal shows a figure standing straight and surrounded by a tree, which being worshipped by another figure with seven attendants. That figure surrounded by the tree and standing upright with the arms pointing straight down has the same headgear. Other Indus seal figures do as well, and their head gear is similar yet less like the horns of an animal, and there is no reason to believe that these figures with the head ornamentation or symbol in question are anything other than human. The standing position of the figure just mentioned is identical to the Jain kayotsarga meditative posture found throughout ancient Jain art.'''

''Again, the proto-shiva association is a standard reading, as the two share a lot of commonality: ithyphallic state, for example. no jain statue seems to have an erect penis. Samosharana? Does his references include an ithyphallic state?? If it does, please do inform me. And if it doesn't, perhaps you should look at a better resolution image of the seal.''

'''I don't share your interest in looking at erect penises, you have raised a point (no pun intended). This might be due to the artistic style and inability to depict perspective on the part of the Indus seal-maker. Note also that the knees are shown 180 degrees apart in a position which is impossible for the human body to acheive. Primitive artists elsewhere such as in tribal Africa depict anatomical perspective in the same fashion.'''

''3. i think i'd rather follow my "western idols" than follow your wild speculation about history. I think _most_ people would agree with me that your version of history is the revisionist version: attempting to claim that IVC was a jain civilization.''

'''You are arguing against a claim that was never made. Earlier it was acknowledged that more than one religion likely flourished in the Indus Civilization, and that influence undoubtedly arrived from Sumeria through trade exchanges. So evidently, it would only be revisionist zealots like yourself who claim without support a "Hindu" monopoly on the religious practices of the Indus Civilization.'''

''4. This was simply a typo. I meant to say Parsva, i.e. the first historic reference of Jain practices. Please note, however, the Parsva did not organize the religion, rather, Mahavira borrowed his ideas to develop Jainism. Again, both western and eastern scholarship support this. ''

'Please present evidence rather than resorting to "scholars say so, so it must be so"''. Name any of your myriad "sources" and lay out their their arguments and their evidence. Your generalizations are worthless without examples to back them up.'''

'''You have not responded to the strong evidence presented regarding Jain antiquity attested in Hindu historical literature, which contradicts your religious dogma that Jainism cannot predate Mahavira. You have nothing to say about the undeniable evidence in Buddhist Pali literature that the Nirgrantha religion (Jainism) was well-established by the time of Mahavira's life. Perhaps, like you, the so-called "scholarship" in which you cloak you ignorace cannot withstand arguments that disprove your deeply held beliefs about Indian culture.'''

introduction
i think the article as it stands now, would be academically acceptable in terms of facts and representation. If we can agree that this is an acceptable state (in POV terms), we can take off the NPOV tag.

Sabotage
Someone is trying to sabotage this page.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jainism

Links?
Somebody removed the links and the pictures from the article.

The person is 211.61.61.253 Location: Sacred Heart Girls Hihg School SEOUL, Korea

Why?

New portal on religion
Brisvegas and I have been creating portals for various significant religions, with your religion being one of the portals. The portals still need work, but most of the groundwork has been done. We need to find people who would like to take responsibility for their faith's portal. Brisvega looks after the Christianity portal, and I look after the Islam portal. You can find your religion's portal by looking at the Religion & Spirituality section on the portal template at Template:Portals. I've been notified that your faith's portal can possibly be deleted if no one looks after the portal. --JuanMuslim 1m 17:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

--- Thank you guys for creating the partal on Jainism. Let us look at the portal and enhance and update it time to time.--Malaiya 01:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"antiquity of jainism"
whoever copied the "antiquity of jainism" section from a website needs to realize that the website is published by jain students. not students of jainism, but jain students. the information presented by them is not necessarily correct nor does it adhere to any academic standards. anyway, if you read the text, the immature sentence structures seriously undermine any credibility such a document could have.

Vegetarianism in Indic religions.
It is not true that Jainism is the only religion in which all members are (or are supposed to be) vegetarian. There are many Hindu religions in which vegetarianism is required. The mistake here is in considering Hinduism only to be a single religion. It is not only that---it is also a conglomeration of discrete religions. And many of them are vegetarian. We might say that Hinduism is a single religion simply because many Hindus claim that it is. But my observation still stands, and many Hindus will confirm it. For instance, in all of the major forms of Vaisnavism, all devotees are required to be vegetarian.---Michael J. Gressett

some needed changes made
I made some changes to this article Jainism.

Changes made - 1. samsara [changed to] sansara

2. Ananta gnana, Darshan, Chaitanya, and Sukh [changed to] Ananta Jnän, Ananta Darshan, Ananta Chäritra, and Ananta Sukh

3. The only way to escape from suffering is for the jiva to completely escape from the human condition, from human existence. [changed to] The only way to escape from suffering is, for the jiva to completely escape from the four ghatis (stage) of Human, Heavenly bodies, Plants/Animals/Insects/Fish/ etc life, and Hell, by practising jainism continuously to attain liberation, salvation, and finally moksha the ultimate aim.

-

The 3rd. change made was stated wrong, for a jiva to escape from suffering it need to escape from four ghatis (stage), which are human (manushya), heavenly bodies (dev lok), Plants/Animals/Insects/Fish etc (pashu, pakshi), hell (narak).

I hope you support my edition.

Abhishek Madhani

Removing marketing plugs
Jain temple at Vataman was mentioned as a major tirtha!!! A temple in Vataman cannot be equated with a really major tirtha like say Palitana. Removed that plug. Please refrain from such marketing plugs.

Need a logo for jain stubs
need a logo to be used on stubs related to Jainism. Chirag 23:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Pages for Tirthankars
Hi,

I think we need to have following: 1. One page for every tirthankar. Also need to define a format for the page: Such as: Birth name, Date (Indian Tithi), Lanchhan, Birth City, Nirvan Date, Nirvan City. Approximate age (in terms of Jain measures such as Sagaropam) 2. Need to define, a name format in which names of tirthankara's are written. E.g. Should it be Lord Rishabh, or Rishab Dev? Should it be Lord Mahavir or Mahavir Swami?

Any Ideas Chirag 22:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Inline references
Hey guys nice job so far. I would strongly suggest using inline citations as that will be required to make this a featured article. --Blacksun 00:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

lot of fighting here
Wow it is kindav amusing reading the arguments on this page. Fortunately, in real life, Hindus and Jains rarely fight like this. Not to mention, they tend to go to each others pilgramage too. I have gone to palitana like ten times and I am Hindu. I wish this article lots of success and hope it gets to FA quality soon. --Blacksun 17:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The 'indic text" warning?
Why is this note on the Jain page?

The page using Devangari (Hindi) script, not Gurumukhi used in the warning in the rectangle. I have never seen the the type of display error suggested by it. The warning notice appears to be promoting the Gurumukhi script.

--ISKapoor 23:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The warning is used on many many different script pages and does not apply only to Gurmukhi. The picture is merely representative of complex text rendering.  If you can think of a better representative image, please post your ideas on the template talk page.  Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

SIRI BHUVALAYA
Does any body know about 'Siri Bhuvalaya'. Following is a quote mentioned in a website : http://www.jainheritagecentres.com/jainavoice/jainavoice13.htm.

''Siribhuvalaya is a very interesting classic work found in Jaina literature. It is composed in arithmetic language. It was written by Kumudhendu who has called it "Sarvabhasahamayi Karnataka Kavya" and also "Vishwakavya". The exact period of the poet is unknown and is arduous to decide about the same. However the prosody and the language of the work connote to believe that the author Kumudendu lived in the 16th century in a village called Yelavalli along with his 1500 disciples situated amidst Nandidurga near Chickaballapur''

Thanks in advance Subramanya 08:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Sanmatti Prakaran
Sanmatti Prakaran, Author Acharya siddhasen Divakar. Last published by Navjeevan Trust Gujarat. Separate article or some reference in Jainism is necessary as this is only the first Book available on Anekantvad or Syadvad. vkvora 05:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)