Talk:Jajouka

This is the Microsoft Encarta spelling and the closest one to the Zahjouka/Jahjouka old time spelling in Morocco for identity cards. Emerman 21:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Clarify the issues in dispute please
The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'

I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.

This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims. This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.

The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.

My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.

I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. Id also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such asMaster Musicians of Jajouka and The Master Musicians of Joujouka Tuathal 00:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Why delete Hamri references?
Note to anonymous New York user. There is only one page for the village in Morocco known as Jajouka / Joujouka / Djadjuka, etc. Since there is only one village, there is only one page (searching for "Joujouka" redirects you here). Also, this page here is primarily about the village itself, not about the Master Musicians, although they are mentioned, of course. Since Hamri's book tells the folk tales of the village, I do not understand why you deleted it. Jonur 22:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree about the above. The article is about Jajouka/Joujouka village. Both bands and both Hamri and Attar belong to this article. It is made clear that the village can be spelled differently. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  09:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Changes in search of neutrality
I have just made a number of changes in search of neutrality. There is no objective reason to prefer one spelling of the village over another. Some writers us one, some use another, some have used both. Likewise, it would be detrimental to Wikipedia to take sides in the dispute between the two groups of musicians in the village. Therefore, they should both be accorded equal courtesy. Since the spelling of the village name is the primary method of distinguishing between the two groups in terms of recordings, etc., we should be careful not to give one precedence over the other. I have also removed details of the two groups, which should be placed on the page about the group. Jonur 15:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

BA and MA devoting life to preserving music
Do we understand that they were exempted from army service in order to focus on the music? Can we have some supporting documentation? Jonur 17:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

MMoJajouka featuring Bachir Attar
I hadn't noticed this before. If we look at the chronology of albums, "Brian Jones presents ..." and the Joel Rubiner album were both recorded when the group was still led by Jnuin, BA's father. All albums recorded by BA since the split have been under the band title of "Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar". There is no album since the split by "Master Musicians of Jajouka" on their own. Therefore, it is consistent with the recordings to use the full name "Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring BA" and "Master Musicians of Joujouka". Jonur 23:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Jonur, the reason you previously mentioned both MMoJ featuring BA and MMoJajouka are the same is that the "jajouka" band records under Master Musicians of Jajouka name in sound track work if you would look at liner notes and internet listings for the soundtracks, not as "Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar" -- they have used both names; see The Cell and other film sound track liner notes and listings (The Cell includes music from Apocalypse Across the Sky but listed as "Master Musicians of Jajouka" not "featuring Bachir Attar" despite the fact that Apoc. Across the Sky was originally "MMofJ featuring Bachir Attar". Please remember not to edit in a way that is contentious since you have mentioned not wanting contentious edits kept in articles. Avoid going on vague notions if you are going to try to improve things. Also note the name of the two official pages for the band; one is at jajouka.com and the other is Master Musicians of Jajouka, the latter of which site does not mention "featuring Bachir Attar" in the page name; it incorporates both.


 * Also it is incorrect to say the main difference between the two bands is the village name spelling, and highly contentious so people should be careful how they word things. I think the articles need tags requesting verification for info so that they end up with good footnotes eventually given the sensitivity of the articles.


 * A general rule of thumb on something else I saw in the past: Using the word "apparently" as a reason for an edit is never a good enough reason for an edit summary per the guidelines. Of course we also need cites, and the cites need to be to definitive articles, not articles that say "weasel words" like apparently where the author was unsure.


 * Please go to the library and research as I started to try to do (and never really got under way). Using my reading list at the bottom that you haven't read does not equate with having footnotes.


 * I know I don't have the time to do it either. I don't just question my own ability, I acknowledge my lack of ability to put any further time in but I am going to tag these related articles as unscholarly articles needing verification because no one has gone beyond the beginning disambiguation work to do their own research and have not added footnotes. Please go for scholarship in an encyclopedia, I encourage everyone.


 * You can remove the tags whenever you guys feel like you've got good footnotes or if you decide the tags don't belong.


 * I hope folks will look up the official name for the village as someone suggested on another page instead of relying on European Gysin's 1960s stylistic essay spelling from liner notes as spelling for the village. He is not Moroccan. We need to try to be scholarly.


 * Also, I am removing the statement marked "dubious" to the Talk page, which I think was intended for the talk page to begin with and had been placed in the wrong place by the other group's manager, who doesn't likely understand where to post:


 * "Most Jajouka men have an alternate income from the Army except Bachir and Mostapha Attar who dedicated their lives to saving and promoting the Jajouka Music of their father Djnuin El Hadj Abdesalam Attar. Farming and having spent a number of years in the Army are how most villagers and musicians support themselves."


 * If it's dubious, it belongs on the talk page to begin with, unless we have a citation for it. Neither group's manager should be editing the articles and I doubt either particularly wants to. Hopefully someone can explain where the talk page is to the "jajouka" group manager and she can make a comment sometime in the right place.


 * I am tagging these articles that they need footnotes but am not going to add new research due to time constraints, and I ask that others begin to do that please and that nothing contentious to either side be added unless heavily researched and cited. Numbered, linked footnotes are approrpiate used in heavily contentious articles. See the examples in the Biographies of Living People discussion where many past contentious articles appear with jumplinked footnotes throughout. The current References lists added by me at the beginning of the disambiguation process that was never completed nor barely begun, as I said before, are just reading lists, not footnotes.


 * I am sure you can get things fair and neutral and more info added but if you can't spend the time, I hope someone will and that they will add footnotes. Emerman 04:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope more info on the general lore of the bandfrom the 1971 Rolling Stone article is included in the band article or if appropriate the village article. Note the 1989 RS article interviewing BA also has lore of the group as does 1992 RS article. Lots to read out there. B Attar article could use more info on his work; lots of articles to read not mentioned. Emerman 06:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

re: anonymous editors
I noticed that some edits in this article made by newbie anonymous IPs were making the edit reason in their edit summaries things like "Hamri was not affiliated with Master Musicians of Jajouka". I sent one a notice that the Jajouka article about the village is not about a single band but the whole village. It appears however that in the interest of avoiding contentiousness, care should be taken to how things are worded when mentioning band managers and we need to use good source footnotes for facts we state in these particular articles. Emerman 22:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * see Socks of User: B K Lisenbee, for a comparison of IPs? Opiumjones 23 (talk) 00:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Dispute flag
Is a dispute flag in order here?

The page needs to be worked on in any case to reflect trading names associated and the official Moroccan spelling "Zahjouka".

Abelelkrim 01:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Zahjouka
As discussed on Brian Jones Presents The Pipes of Pan at Jajouka talk should we not change the name to the official Moroccan government spelling and redirect from the names used in literature and by the two groups that trade on the village music i.e. Jajouka and Joujouka i.e.Master Musicians of Jajouka and Master Musicians of Joujouka.

Abelelkrim 22:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

editors and admin s should note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_BKLisenbee
Lissenbee has been a Wiki pest to several editors across many pages perhaps his socks should be blocked

pls revert his edits

Discussion Moved to Mediation at User:FayssalF/JK
User:FayssalF/JK Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Photo 135.jpg
Image:Photo 135.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)