Talk:Jalil Zandi

Untitled
Hi Madman Jalil Zandi, the ace iranian pilot, was my brother. Unfortunately the title of the Article Jalal Zandi is wrong and it could be changed to Jalil Zandi. So I decided to create another article with the correct name. Please delete the article Jalal Zandi.
 * I will perform a history merge so all contributors to this article are attributed correctly. Please use MediaWiki's move functionality and don't cut-and-paste articles in the future, as it causes licensing problems. Thanks, &mdash; madman 22:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Format and perspective issues
The most glaring issue with this page is the perspective; the way it's written gives the impression that it was edited by an overzealous Iranian or someone else who relies heavily on an Iranian standpoint. Another thing I'm worried about is the format. Based on the headings used, this person's service in the Iran-Iraq war wasn't part of his career, and his death in 2001 happened during the Iran-Iraq war. It's quite disorganized, and I can't seem to make any changes to it without someone reverting them for no clear reason at all. CFFan116 (talk) 05:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Do you feel OK Mr. CFFan?!!!!! His death occured in 2001 during the Iran-Iraq war?!!!!! Before you comment about an iranian military person, please search at least, when the Iran-Iraq war ended. The Iran-Iraq war ended in 1988. Jalil Zandi served his country as a fighter pilot from the beginning of war until its end in 1988.  Diako  « Talk » 07:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Diako1971 is absolutely correct. And if I may add, he is (in my humble opinion) one of the most learned people on wikipedia when it comes the the Iran-Iraq air war.

Now, there is no doubt the Jalil Zandi was the most SUCCESSFUL F-14 pilot ever. How do we know this? He shot down the most enemy aircraft. And why is this important? Just look at the wikipdia article on List of aces of aces. Now, how are those aces ranked? BY THEIR NUMBER OF KILLS! That is the way the best fighter pilots are ranked and how they will always be ranked. Zandi's 11 kills make him, without a doubt and beyond proof, the most successful Tomcat pilot, EVER!

Now, yes, an article about a great and renown Iranian pilot is going to have an Iranian viewpoint. THIS COMES AS A SURPRISE? Come on, what are you going to say to make his opponents look good? The article mentions he had to eject once. Come on.

Mind you, this is a problem that has shown up elsewhere. Lots of the best information comes from the excellent work of Tom Cooper. But it is not clear cut. He is criticized by some, mostly Iraqi's, for his viewpoint. If I can steal from a review of his work online, this may clarify things:

"I have followed Tom Cooper's online posts on both Iranian and Iraqi military discussion forums, and they are enlightening.

First, Iraqis have taken him to task for an Iranian slant, but he will have none of it. He says that finding official reports from Iraq is almost impossible. Many records were destroyed, and those few that weren't were most likely doctored by the regime. He is also thwarted when it comes to his best alternate source of info: personal interviews with pilots. He reports that time and time again, good leads that promise facts do not come up with documentation, or go clam shut silent when they are interviewed. And none of the people who criticize him come up with any new information other than "my father, or brother said ..." Actually, for polite as he is, it really infuriates him.

Additionally, he figures the Iraqis didn't know what hit them half the time. The F-14 was such a superior aircraft, with a radar that could find the enemy at a distance while swamping any countermeasures and their aged RWR, and the AIM-54 was such a powerful weapon with a fight profile that utterly confused the Iraqis (being a climb, expending fuel, and Mach 4+ smokeless and silent dive) such they often didn't even know what hit them. Heck, he even suggests the the Iranians used their superior IFF systems as a type of stealth detection. Cool stuff.

Official Iranian sources were no better, but Cooper says they had much greater success with many former Iranian pilots. This allowed them to begin to create a database and double check and verify results. For some reason, it seems more verifiable information came out of Iran, stuff that could be confirmed thru western sources, like the Pentagon etc. And finally the Iranians have produced many books and countless articles on their Air Force. So there is your Iranian slant, I guess. He says its the best he can do."

This was taken from an Amazon.com book review.

So, I hope this explains why there may be an (understandable) Iranian slant to an article about an Iranian war hero.

Indeed, I ask you ... what is the world could you suggest as a change, that has any basis whatsoever in fact, that would modify the viewpoint of this otherwise superior article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seaeffel (talk • contribs) 18:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't undestand what the difference is between the sentences "the highest-scoring F-14 pilot in history" and "the most successful F-14 Tomcat pilot ever"?! and why are you arguing about this matter.  Diako  « Talk » 19:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Diako - For the life of me, I do not know. I think this is the case of a "tinkerer" not an editor. CFFan116 just has to make his changes, but he seems to oblivious to the fact that he is not a particularly good writer. He has, in other articles, made glaring errors of fact and grammar. I just wish he'd leave these very good articles alone.

Additionally, I said that there was mention of the fact that Jandi had to eject from a Tomcat once after it was clipped by a Matra missile, if I recall correctly. This has been edited out of the article, and I am fine with that. I think it may be too "fine grained" information for a biography like this one. Alas, so little is known about this long faught air war, which is a shame, because it is one of the most protracted conflicts in the modern jet era. Unfortunately most of the details are lost to history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seaeffel (talk • contribs) 19:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Dear Seaeffel. As you know about my relation to Jalil Zandi, I assure you that Jalil Zandi has never ejected and this is one of the wrong informations of the Tom Cooper's book. If you can access to the information of other iranian fighter pilots of the Iran-Iraq war, the will say you also that Zandi never ejected. Although Tom Cooper's book has very good information, but it has many deficiencies. I tell you here some defeciencies of Tom Cooper's book:

1-In some parts of the book the first name of Zandi was mentioned "Jalal" and in other parts it was mentioned "Jalil". But "Jalil" is correct not "Jalal".

2-In the list of Iranian victories at the end of the book it was mentioned an F-14 pilot named "Toufaninan', that shot down 6 Iraqi fighters. But as a matter of fact we don't have an F-14 pilot with this name during the war. Toufanian was one of the Generals of Shah's regime who was responsible for buying F-14s and after the revolution he escaped from Iran.

3- In a part of the book it was mentioned about a F-5 pilot named "Zarif Khadem" and it' written in this book that he has shot down one MiG-25. The fact is that Zarif Khadem's plane crashed to the mountain and was killed in the very early time of the war when Iraq hadn't had MiG-25s yet.

4-In the part, which is about Sultan Ten operation, it is written that a front seat F-14 pilot named K. Sedghi shot down 4 MiG-23s. I have researched about the name of this pilot. We didn't have an F-14 pilot with this name during the war. We had a RIO with the name of "Hassan Sedghi", but he was a RIO and not a pilot.

5-About Jalil Zandi it's written in Tom Cooper's book that he was in jail two times. But this is not correct. Jalil Zandi was only one time in jail.

The issue of Jalil Zandi's ejecting is one of these wrong informations.  Diako  « Talk » 22:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Dear Diako - MANY, MANY THANKS! It is obvious that you are, literally, an expert in this subject matter. Of this I have no doubt.


 * I have one big problem with another article I created. I created the entry for Mohommed Rayyan whom I believe to be a very successful Iraqi Mig-25 pilot, one mentioned by Tom Cooper in his excellent work. But ... I have seen several online forum posts that say he did not exist and is a mythical figure like Colonel Tomb. Do you know of any Iranian information on this pilot?


 * By the way, given the information we have, it seems to me that the average Iranian pilot was much superior to their Iraqi opponents. They had the strong foundation of advanced training on American platforms before the revolution. And then they put that training to good use with repeated sorties during the early years of the war. My opinion, for sure, but I believe is backed by the evidence. Again, MANY THANKS!


 * I must have not done a good job getting my point across. I tried to put his death in 2001 under a new section "Later years and death" because it did obviously did not happen in the Iran-Iraq war and therefore doesn't belong under an Iran-Iraq war section. What I also tried to do was change the headings so that the Iran-Iraq war and Later years section used ===Heading 3=== and wouldn't clash with the Career section which uses ==Heading 2==. I was hoping such changes would make the article look more organized, even if there is little information available on this person. CFFan116 (talk) 02:48, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * On the matter of perspective, "most successful F-14 pilot ever" might be acceptable if it didn't have "ever" at the end. They didn't describe Giora Epstein as the "most successful Israeli fighter pilot ever", even if he has the most aerial kills of any airman in the Israeli Air Force. The way this article is written is too praise-giving in my opinion. CFFan116 (talk) 03:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

You don't get it. What you think "might be acceptable" doesn't matter. Nor does your opinion. As it stands, there are two editors, me and Daiko, who have no problem with this article. You, and you alone, based on your opinion, are trying to change it. And you are a poor writer.

That is NOT consensus, and is not the way wikipedia works.

Am I making myself clear?


 * Quit pretending you own the page. You insist it's well written even if it has grammar issues like "a F-14". You stand for well informed and well written articles but a mistake as simple and as obvious as that one as that you overlook. Also articles on Wikipedia aren't supposed to give praise. It's an encyclopedia website and should be written the way an encyclopedia is supposed to. From a neutral standpoint. How stupid are you? CFFan116 (talk) 04:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Error fixed. Did you read any of the discussion above? The only thing you bring to this disagreement is your opinion.

And that is ill informed and woefully insufficient.


 * I was expecting a discussion on the changes themselves. Not a bunch of dissertation-type stuff about the air war. Also you should sign your posts. It's easy. Just type four of ~ these things. CFFan116 (talk) 04:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

"Not a bunch of dissertation-type stuff about the air war." Oh my. Now look who is stupid.

Try raising your game a bit.

@User:Seaeffel. Dear Seaeffel. You're welcome. I didn't see any Iranian pilot, who knows something about an Iraqi pilot named Rayyan. Maybe it's a fictional figure, but I'm not sure. About the comparison you made between Irai pilots and Iranian pilots, you're right. Iranian fighter pilots were much more skillful than Iraqi fighter pilots.

@User:CFFan116. Dear CFFan. About putting the information about his death in another section, you're right and thank you for putting it in another section. About the other editions you made in your last contributions on the article, I don't see any particular problems in them, although I didn't see any problems either with sentences and words you've changed. I think it's a matter of taste.  Diako  « Talk » 10:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry Seaffel. I didn't read the entirety of your posts, being excessively long and seemingly away from the point. I would type a proper response but my tolerance is nil and I'm worried what thought I put into it would be wasted. CFFan116 (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

CFFan116 wrote: " I didn't read the entirety of your posts"

Well that is not good, not good at all. I'd suggest you bring a bit more diligence and rigour to your contributions and edits. If you don't have the tolerance for wikipedia, or feel your time and/or energy are being wasted, perhaps you shouldn't contribute. This isn't about you, it is about wikipedia.

Oh, and Diako, I created the new section in the article.


 * There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't know where to start. Okay, let's see...
 * You've called me a poor writer but haven't given me clear advice on how I could improve my editing or anything else that would make progress whatsoever.
 * If someone doesn't agree with you they're judgement automatically doesn't matter and their edits are either vandalism or poorly made. Either your way or the highway isn't it?
 * Oh, and even if the sourced material supports a particular view doesn't mean the article has to do the same thing! "How could it not be biased?" you say, since it's about someone who fought on a certain side in a certain war! Look at another article of a veteran. This is a Wikipedia article, not a Tehran newspaper! There's a ton of controversy surrounding this topic as it is!
 * And yet everything you've done has been in Wikipedia's best interests! That's so ironic it's almost funny...
 * There you go. An honest response. You're welcome. CFFan116 (talk)

Regarding your poor writing and research skills, well, it not my responsibility to make you a better writer, but it is my responsibility to edit and correct your contributions. It takes a certain amount of self awareness to look at your own work and then change weaknesses into strengths. I know I can not provide you that, nor should it be expected of me. I have no interest in doing so.

When I believe someone is ruining a wikipedia entry, yes, I make a judgement and then act accordingly. I will, of course, change that judgement when I see solid evidence to the contrary. Such is the case with Diako, whose interventions in this case have convinced me of his expertise.

"There's a ton of controversy surrounding this topic as it is!" Pardon me? Around Jalil Zandi? What controversy are you talking about? If there was any issue, whatsoever, is that it took so long for the man and his achievements to be recognized on wikipedia. Other than that, I see no issue with this article. Indeed, you are the only person I have ever dealt with that seems to think that Zandi and his achievements are in any way suspect. This is strange and hard for me to understand. It would like writing and article about, say Muhammad Ali (perhaps the greatest boxer ever) and then criticizing it for not saying enough about his opponents or mentioning his gold medal and championship belts. And trust me, if you want Iranian propaganda there is much, much worse on wikipedia. This article is a shining star.

Everything I have done is not just in wikipedia's best interest. It is also in my best interests, because I enjoy contributing to the site. I wouldn't do so if I didn't. Its been a long time since grad school, so I enjoy the challenge of editing. It keeps my mind sharp. I did a quick tally and I have been on wiki 9 years, editing 5000 times and creating 350 articles. I try my very best to make sure every article meets my highest standard, which happens to coincide with wiki standards.

Any more questions?


 * I wouldn't contradict anything written on the page as long as it's properly sourced. I came here to read about the history of the F-14, and I'm glad there's info on this guy who became an ace in one, limited as it is.


 * The revisions I made were aimed at evening out the wording. That and siding with the Iraqis are different things, so I don't see what it is I'm doing wrong here.


 * With nine years of experience you could have tried handling this more calmly, like maybe without telling me to "get over it" or screaming about vandalism. Signing your posts might have helped as well. CFFan116 (talk) 16:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Arrests
The article says: "Abbas Babaei was "notorious for his merciless treatment of the pilots and officers" considered disloyal to the new regime and because of this Jalil Zandi was condemned to ten years of imprisonment. When he was in prison, he was threatened to be sentenced to death, but by demand of the then-air force commander and many other air force pilots, he was released after six months."

The source cited is pages 23–24 of the book written by Cooper and Bishop. I checked it per WP:V, and the source says: "For reasons that still remain unknown, TFB 8 CO Maj Abbas Babaei –who was already notorious for his merciless treatment of the pilots and officers considered 'disloyal' to the new regime– ordered Maj Jalil Zandi to bring the F-14 back to base. Zandi had once been under a death sentence passed by the Mullahs, and had only recently been released from prison. Now he was expected to fly to Omidiyeh aboard a Beech Bonanza and bring the F-14 back to a base deeper within Iran. But Zandi disobeyed this order, again for reasons known only to himself– and was imprisoned once again. He was later allowed to return to his unit."

As it is evident, the content is not backed up by the source (except for the quote early in the sentence). I will correct it accordingly. Pahlevun (talk) 14:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)