Talk:Japanese school uniform/Archive 1

article merger
I propose that Gakuran and Sailor fuku be merged into this article. The articles are short, and are not very expansive; there's not much variation between the three articles and the combined amount would still be well under the 30k limit for a split. The articles overall would do much better to be combined than seperated.--Mitsukai 01:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I Prefer them seperate —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.136.49.7 (talk • contribs).


 * I would say that the Sailor Fuku article warrants being seperate at any rate- although it needs more information. I think it's slightly culturally significant (for instance, the costumes in Sailor Moon are glorified Sailor Fukus, aren't they?) and there seem to be a lot of sexual fantasies surrounding them (if there are such fantasies about other school uniforms, I am unaware of them.) (Darien Shields 12:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC))
 * I would argue that while the cultural issues regarding the uniform can remain in a seperate Sailor fuku article, the clothing itself probably should be merged into the larger Japanese uniform article. Aside from that, there's no real equivalent on the cultural scale for the gakuran and that could very much be merged.--Mitsukai 15:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that separate is much better, the sailor fuku has a big relevance in otaku culture; and maybe the gakuran too.--Taichi 07:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've added a "Cultural Significance" section to the Sailor fuku article, but is there any chance someone a bit more knowledgable might add to it? I'm afraid I can't speak volumes about it...(Darien Shields 07:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC))

I feel that the articles should remain seperate. Some examples regarding Sailor Fuku: It is most definitely part of the Japanese sexual canon. In addition, much could be added to the article regarding resistence by some of Japan's left wing in regard to sailor fuku's use as being a relic of Japan's expansionist past. Variations on Sailor fuku make it a popular association with female bosozoku biker ("ladies") and define the delinquent "Sukeban" girls of the 80s. Sailor fuku often carries a long lasting association by Japanese women with their youth. (The onyanko club sings a song about this very feeling entitled: Sailor Fuku. I have yet to sing karaoke about blazers and neckties.) Likewise, much could also be added to the subject of the gakuran, including it's role in popular culture. Bosozoku, yankee culture, etc. While both the gakuran and sailor fuku should bear mentioning under "Japanese school uniform," they are both unique cultural items of Japan and with time, will no doubt become more expansive, worthy of their own respective entries. Ben Her 16:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Sailor uniform is part of the culture of Japanese school uniforms, but none of the points mentioned in it's article under the 'cultural significance' are unique to the sailor style of uniform and could easily be applied to Japanese school uniforms in general. A year on from the above posting and I don't see how sailor fuku can continue to warrent standing apart from this article. Sailor uniforms are perhaps the most well known of the various styles, otaku culture might find it especially interesting, and that's worthy of a mention in this article, but I don't think that on it's own warrents splitting off sailor fuku into it's own article. This article already holds much of the same information as Sailor Fuku, not to mention including the very same pictures. The few points mentioned above about the sailor uniform could be included in a few sentences (if that) in a sub section for Sailor Fuku in this article. ShizuokaSensei 11:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree and I actually suggested the merge before I saw this discussion. As it stands the articles are basically duplicating information. There was recently a request to translate information for Sailor fuku over from the JA Wikipedia. A quarter of the information in question turned out to be about Donald Duck (well, he does wear a sailor uniform). The articles can be merged here without any loss, with a net gain for WP:Use English, and a better encyclopedic tilt. Dekimasu 15:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It now having been over a year, and little of the suggested expansion having taken place at gakuran or sailor fuku, and with cheap redirects and WP:UE, I see no reason not to proceed with these merges. Gakuran seems straightforward. I believe that Sailor fuku shouldn't get its own article at the Japanese name simply because foreigners who watch anime know the term. What should be considered is whether one is properly a subset of the other based on the meaning in Japanese culture. It appears that very few people have opinions on the subject, or else no one is looking at the merge request, so I'm going to leave a note at WP:Japan. Dekimasu 13:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. It would be a lot easier to discuss not only the historical/cultural origins and serious anthropological significances, but also the pop culture aspects of the subject if it is all concentrated in one article. LordAmeth 14:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Concensus appeared to be in favour of merging these articles. I've merged them.  I've done some tidying up but there might still be room for further clean up. Jimp 03:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Gakuran
Seifuku (student clothes) and gakuran (school wear) mean the same thing. Merge.... sailor fuku (sailor clothes) is somewhat different tho.

Perhaps the other article can focus entirely on the pop culture of sailor fuku while the Japanese school uniform article can contain the information pertaining to the actual uniform itself?

As a student in Japan I have never heard a female student refer to their uniform as Sailor fuku. Only as seifuku. This should illustrate the entirely different meanings of the two words to you.

Just some thoughts from someone living in Japan and going to a Japanese high-school (I call my uniform seifuku by the way!)--Rangi 11:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have and will always love school girl uniforms and anyone should be allowed to wear them males and females they are so cute i want to dress up in them and i am male but i wish i was a lttle girl so that i could be cute and wear pretty cloths oh oh that would be oh so wonderful there is nothing wrong with being a girl! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eleventhdr (talk • contribs) 16:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all the comment above me is gross! I personally love the idea of the traditional japanese sailor uniform...american uniforms are boring and ugly!I am currently learnming the language and i am going to be going on an exchange and i have a couple of questions...how short are you allowed to wair your skirt? are japanese highschool goers accepting of not fat but not super skinny american students? how are usual teacher personalities like? PLEASE answer. thnx bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.38.219.126 (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

classroom changing
Should I infer that kids who don't wear their sport uniforms under their clothes must strip to their underwear in front of students of both sexes? Is this only for younger kids? --Gbleem 21:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

No, because both sexes don't get changed in the same room. at my school for example (im senior high student), boys get changed in the classroom and girls go somewhere elseRangi 15:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I can second that for my school (JHS). Some kids do, some kids go to the toilets. There's no rules about it at all. ShizuokaSensei 02:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture of boys school uniform
It would be nice if there is a picture of school uniform for boys. 218.208.227.249 18:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger discussion
Gakuran and Sailor fuku → Japanese school uniform — Consolidating articles in order to create one good article. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 16:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the merger

 * 1) Support. I think combining the articles into one, with a section in the newly-combined article being about the sailor fuku fetish, would be better overall as it would have all the information in one spot. A large amount of the information in the Gakuran and Sailor fuku articles is redundant to what is in the Japanese school uniform anyway, so merging them shouldn't be too difficult. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk  to Nihon joe 16:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Ditto. LordAmeth 18:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. For the reasons above and the initial reasons I proposed on the article pages. One thing I will mention it that we don't want to make the mistake of overplaying the significance of the sailor uniform fetish. For every sailor uniform on sale or sailor uniform themed video there are a hundred others featuring the myriad other styles of uniforms. Anyway, will save this discussion for the article. Merge. ShizuokaSensei 22:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support as above. It'd been a while since I made a popular suggestion.... Dekimasu 11:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support as above.  MightyAtom 00:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Support for the reasons mentioned above plus the fact the Wikipedia policy is that article titles should be in English (only logical considering that this is an English encyclopædia). Jimp 00:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the merger

 * 1) Oppose - The main problem is that the japanese and german versions related these articles as "sailor uniform"; meanwhile the other translations explain the girl school uniform as English Wiki. Maybe with the merge, this article will have problems with the interwikis. --Taichi 04:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a bit of a problem but surely we can't let ourselves be tied down by what is happening on other language versions. Jimp 01:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC) Below is the list of broken Interwikis. Jimp 07:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC) ... On the other hand, perhaps the editors of those other language versions will follow our lead and merge their Japanese school uniform stubs into one article too. Jimp 07:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:

Interwikis
Here are the interwiki links from the merged pages. Jimp 07:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Gakuran

غاكوران Gakuran Gakuran Gakuran
 * Sailor suit

سايلر فوكو Fuku mariniegu Sērā fuku Sērā fuku Sérá fuku Sailor fuku Matrosenanzug Sērā fuku Sailor fuku Fuku alla marinara Vestis nautica blobe'e ke ponjo nixli tadni taxfu Sailor fuku Baħri fuku セーラー服 Sailor Fuku Fuku di marinaru Sailor fuku Gemici fuku 水手服

Cleanup
This page was in dire need of cleanup and reorganization. I recognize and appreciate all the fun, campy elements that are associated with Sailor Fuku, but please remember to be objective and thoughtful with additions. Certain "facts" in this article were also completely unrelated to the subject and have been edited accordingly. Also, I felt the "merge suggestion" could safely be removed since enough content has been added to this article to justify its independence. Ben Her 18:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

In an episode of Sailor Moon (#46-C, "Kindergarten Chaos"), I have seen a group of elementary school students wearing sailor fuku. Shouldn't we mention this? Denelson83 01:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't too much attention being paid to the appearance of sailor uniform in cartoons etc? It's by far from unique in this respect. Barryvalder 12:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Better picture?
The article could do with a better photograph, if possible from the front en trois quart, i.e. a bit like this:

A picture from the front is a lot clearer, and somehow I don't think we have permission from the "models" in the current picture. 82.139.85.33 22:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's true, but do we have a real-life picture that is freely licensed and usable? (Not cartoons, I think =P) –-  kungming·  2 | (Talk ·Contact) 23:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

How about ? The lighting is a bit harsh, though. That can probably be fixed to some extent using a suitable gamma factor, let's say 2 or so.

There's not that much out there, after all we don't want cosplayers on a serious article, now do we? Right.

I don't know if we want a manga-style image too, but if we do, perhaps using Wikipe-tan would smell a bit too much like self-promotion? On the other hand, moé anthropomorphism seems to get away with it. Shinobu 03:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Japanese School Uniform？
Sailor uniform is part of the culture of Japanese school uniforms, but none of the points mentioned in this article under the 'cultural significance' are unique to the sailor style of uniform and could easily be applied to Japanese school uniforms in general. With the Japanese school uniform article already holding much of the same information as this one (including the same pictures) I don't how this article can stand apart from it in it's own right. Sailor uniforms are perhaps the most well known of the various styles, and that's worthy of a mention in the Japanese school uniform article, but I don't think it warrents an article of it's own. Thought I'd canvas opinion before making any formal merge request. ShizuokaSensei 10:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Merger discussion
Please come participate in the discussion over here. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 16:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Assessment
What do the terms literally mean, and what do they derive from? LordAmeth 23:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger discussion
Please come participate in the discussion over here. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 16:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Cultural significance
"The uniform is an establish part of Japanese life." In a way more so than uniforms in any other country in the world? At best this is stating the blindingly obvious, and at worse it's just meaningless waffle. The cultural significance section needs to be watched for such verbal padding. The fact people wear uniforms as halloween costumes or to parties in Japan differs in no respect to people doing it (as they do) in countries all over the world. The fact old uniforms are peddled through underground adults stores is noteworthy, however. Let's try and cut down on the waffle. ShizuokaSensei 01:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I love how Video game characters were mentioned, yet Sakura Kasugano from the Street fighter series was left out. Considering many American gamers were introduced to the concept of the Japanese Sailor Fuku was through her. Idbjoshm 07:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)IDBjoshM
 * oh come now. Sailormoon comes first. An entire superhero concept based on the 'sailor' uniforms. Imagine if we had that... XD  super army uniform man!!!

Criticism
Does nobody ever try to speak out against this practice?
 * While every topic has a spectrum of opinions amongst the people involved, I'm unsure if it's of any significance in this case to merit inclusion in this article. To begin with, Japanese place a very strong emphasis on order, respect and obedience throughout their society, and the formal/mandatory nature of uniforms worn in Japanese schools is a direct manifestation of that emphasis. Secondly, schools with uniform dress code may not be the global norm but they're nonetheless found virtually everywhere in the world at present and their existence is generally without controversy. However, with that said, it should be noted that most Japanese elementary schools have discontinued the use of mandatory uniforms (middle/high schools have remained unchanged however), so clearly there is at least some change of opinion occurring in Japan regarding this topic. -- Stereoisomer 19:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

School uniforms are much more common in Commonwealth countries than they are in Japan. Linking national culture (real or imagined) to the wearing or not wearing of uniforms is a dubious proposition. Using your logic there is more emphasis on "order, respect and obedience" in Australian society than in Japan because elementary school uniforms are more common in Australia than Japan.

EHK Tokyo, Japan  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehk (talk • contribs) 22:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Cartoon picture of schoolgirl
Is there really any need for this? Not ony it needlessly self-referential to Wikipedia, it's tacky and lowers the tone of the article considerably. There are already two pictures of real people depicting sailor uniforms, so do we really need to repeat the same information again and again in increasingly more tacky ways? ShizuokaSensei 21:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Are there any objections to wiping this image? It really does nothing for the article which is primarily about *real* school uniforms, *not* the way uniforms are stereotyped and enjoyed by anime and manga fans.ShizuokaSensei 06:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No objections to this awful bit of otaku geekry being removed from this article, then?ShizuokaSensei 13:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the Sailor Outfit has influenced Animé and Manga, so why not? ZellDenver (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I support removing the image. How is a cartoon at all informative? A person looking to see what the sailor uniform actually looks like wouldn't get any help from "Wikipe-Tan." LouisJordan (talk) 19:00, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Uniforms have nothing to do with the West
there is no evidence that japanese uniforms are are taken from or influence by western schools. This is eurocentric thinking. These articles are suppose to be neutral, keep them that way. I removed the false references.
 * This is incorrect. In recent decades, many (if not most) Japanese schools have adopted the uniforms typically used by parochial schools and other private academies in Europe and the Americas -- i.e. blazers, neckties and slacks for males and blazers, neckties and skirts for females. Furthermore, the older classic style of Japanese school uniforms derived from Japanese naval uniforms of the past -- i.e. button-down suits with stiff, upright collars for males and skirted "sailor" suits for the females -- are all derived from the design of 19th century Western naval uniforms which were adopted by the Japanese military as part of the rapid Westernization that Japan experienced during the Meiji Era.

Cosplay
OK, since, nobody is willing to admint it, there IS a link between the Sailor uniform and Cosplay. Just Google "Cosplay". ZellDenver (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. While it may not be essential to the core discussion of the article, the sailor fuku (aka "sailor suit") uniform worn by female students is prominently found throughout Japan's cosplay culture. This fact is already hinted at towards the end of the article with the mention of the prominence of school uniforms in anime/manga (of which cosplay is closely related to) and this would probably be a good place in the article for some brief discussion on the topic of cosplay and school uniforms. -- Stereoisomer 19:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Elementary school uniforms
One of the first statements in the article is: "In the majority of elementary schools, students are required to wear a uniform to school." This is untrue. In fact, it's quite the opposite -- the majority of Japanese elementary schools no longer have uniform dress codes and students simply wear street clothes. In fact, some schools additionally allow students to even engage in limited amounts of costume play (aka "cosplay"); for example, headdress featuring animal ears such as "nekomimi" (cat's ears), dresses with animal tails, and other fantastical accessories and attire. The widespread loosening of dress code at the elementary level is widely discussed on the web and instances are commonly found throughout Japanese media (e.g. TV, film, etc.), however, I hesitate to alter the article because I haven't quite found a source I feel comfortable citing. But I thought this needed to be mentioned in hopes of drawing the attention of someone with a greater knowledge of Japanese schools who has a citable source and can fix the error. -- Stereoisomer 19:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)