Talk:Jewish Renewal

citations?
I spent a bunch of time today adding quotations and references and links to this page. Does it still fit the "needs citations" criteria, or can that infobox be removed?Rachel (talk) 00:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

religious syncretism
I am restoring most of the discussion on religious syncretism. This is a big and widely debated issue in the Jewish community. Even among Reform Jews, widely considered the most religiously liberal, there is a great deal of concern about religious syncretism in Jewish Renewal. Discussions within the Reform Movement's Central Conference of American Rabbis have led to a position in which Jewish Renewal ordained rabbis are usually *not* allowed to become Reform rabbis for precisely this reason, among others. And not suprisingly, this is so in all the denominations to the right of Reform, (i.e. Conservative Judaism, Modern Orthodoxy, Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, and Hasidic Judaism.)

I understand that this may be distressing, and of course every sentence on this subject is open to rewriting! I claim no ownership of the article. And I appreciate your desire to present this information in an NPOV fashion. As such, I am not against your rewrites or ideas onthis issue. Nor am I against adding more descriptions of Jewish Renewal theology and their reasons for their point of view. An evolving article on this topic will only make it better. My only concern here is that this topic not be deleted or lightly glossed over. RK 23:07, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)

The following article discusses Waskow and Schacter-Shalomi's Jewish Renewal movement, and quotes from both supporters and critics. A quote:


 * The Reform and Conservative rabbinical organizations don’t admit Schachter-Shalomi’s rabbis. “There is a sense that what is happening in that community is a watering down of tradition to meet individual needs, that it is market-driven,” said Rabbi Joel Meyers, executive vice president of the 1,500 member Conservative-movement Rabbinical Assembly. “It’s viewed with very mixed to negative reviews.”  “Quickie ordinations, ordinations done without people going through an in-depth period of study and learning, weaken the rabbinate and weaken Jewish life,” said Rabbi Meyers.


 * Jewish Renewal is sometimes criticized as New Age, touchy-feely and stuck in the 1960s. And indeed, that was visible in the groovy Grateful Dead-head-style dancing a couple of women did at the edges of the sanctuary during a song at the recent Shabbaton at B’nai Jeshurun. It was audible in terminology coined by Reb Zalman and used by others such as “davvenology” and talk of a “vibrant spiritual experience.” Still, Renewal continues to attract people, touching one soul at a time. Many are those, who have felt, like Renewal's founders, on the margins of mainstream Judaism.


 * Article on Jewish Renewal - includes criticisms

An anonymous contributor wrote in a comment line: "I give up. RK, if you're so intent on promoting your "Torah true" agenda, you write the article, and while you're at it, rewrite the articles on the other movements too. Orthodoxy uber alles."

I have no idea of what this person is talking about. He must have confused me with someone else. I have never made any edits which promoted the supremacy of Orthodox Judaism as the best or only correct interpretation of rabbinic Judaism. In fact, a small number of other Wikipedia contributors attributed the opposite beliefs to me; they felt that I was not Orthodox enough. I cannot understand how both claims about me can be true! RK

B'nai -- P'nai issues
"P'nai Or" was called "B'nai Or" during the 1960s and 70s and did not become "P'nai Or" until the first Kallah gathering in 1985. I have corrected the article to reflect that. I know that feminists were/are offended by "B'nai Or" but let's not be so politically-correct here that we rewrite history. Also, Waskow did not co-found B'nai Or. He and Schachter had separate orgs -- with separate publications -- until the two merged around 1986. I was "empowered" by Shachter-Shalomi as a B'nai Or maggid/teacher in 1983 and more formally ordained by him in 1986. I left the movement soon after out of disillusionment with the switch to "P'nai Or" and all that entailed. (It was much more than a name change. As far as I'm concerned, B'nai Or died in 1985.)  I have old copies of the newsletters -- including the merger issue -- and I edited the history to reflect that info. If I'm not NPOV enough here, feel free to edit, but I think the history itself should be accurate and not based on PC revisionism. It was B'nai Or for two decades, and only P'nai Or for about a year during the transition before it became ALEPH. Rooster613 16:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)rooster613

POV in lead
To say outright in the lead that Jewish Renewal "reinvigorates modern Judaism" is POV. Other movements would contend that the statement is not true, so you can't just present it as an undisputed reality. If you have a POV problem with the articles on Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism you can bring it up there, but this is simply unacceptable. --DLand TALK 03:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In most articles about religious groups, the lede initially accepts their claims as "undisputed reality", even though "Other movements would contend that the statement[s are] not true". Thus Orthodox Judaism is "the formulation of Judaism that adheres to a relatively strict interpretation and application of the laws and ethics first canonized in the Talmudic texts", and not "the hide-bound, male-dominated formulation of Judaism that adheres to an out-dated interpretation and misunderstanding of the the ethics canonized in the Talmudic texts". Conservative Judaism is said to have as one of its principles "an acceptance of both traditional rabbinic modes of study and modern scholarship and critical text study when considering Jewish religious texts"; it's not described as "a mockery of rabbinic Judaism and the substitution of public opinion polls for proper halakhic interpretation".


 * Why should Jewish Renewal be dealt with differently? According to the lede you wrote, the Renewal movement doesn't actually do anything ("reinvigorate"), it only talks about doing something ("advocates the reinvigoration").


 * I'm happy to work with you and others to craft better language. But I have to warn you: one of the underlying themes behind Jewish Renewal is that modern Judaism need renewal, and for obvious reasons the other movements disagree. There's no way to pussy-foot around that. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 04:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The analogy is not good. Regardless of the POV you put around the words, it is a simple fact that, for example, Orthodoxy is "the formulation of Judaism that adheres to a relatively strict interpretation and application of the laws and ethics first canonized in the Talmudic texts", and one which the other movements would agree with. However, that is not the case for "reinvigorates modern Judaism". Jayjg (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's how we can objectively say that a movement "re-invigorates" a living religious tradition: Even if the three traditional branches (or, at least, Orthodox and Conservative) look askance at the "newcomers" flexible theology and smorgasbord practices -- they worry that their clientele -- the limited pool of potential Jewish participants -- is being "poached" (I mean, "invigorated") -- the very act of enthusiasts leaving their folds for the new horizons on offer shows that, for better or worse, the whole of Judaism is indeed being "re-invigorated" by the ones who aren't afraid to engage directly with their clients' spiritual wants and needs.


 * Orthodoxy is free to self-define and practice as always. But if people want something different, then here come the Re-invigorators!


 * Conservative Judaism in particular is losing adherents by the . . . boatload. They used to be the US's largest denomination. Now they are asking, "What do you want from us?" Unfortunately for them, the answer seems to be, "What Jewish Renewal is offering."


 * Om Shalom to All.


 * Half-caste descendant of Ba'al Shem Tov,
 * friend, fan and student of Reb Zalman Schachter Shalomi.


 * <{: )}>


 * BaalShemRa (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Jewish Renewal is New Age(who?)
The Jerusalem Report (ISSN: 0792-6049)

April 2, 1998

THE NEW BELIEVERS

BYLINE: Yossi Klein Halevi

SECTION: Pg. 14

"...While the phenomenon closely resembles the New Age-inspired "Jewish renewal" movement in the U.S. ..."

Dunno if this counts (in context, it's not a criticism, and indeed is not the topic of the article), but in case someone wants to source it... 149.4.115.3 (talk) 16:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Mild Concern
This article appears to me as though it is trying to sell the validity of this movement. I research Judiasm on Wikipedia with a great deal of regularity, and I can say that this article is not nearly of the same quality standards as most pages I come across. A page that only cites one source should not be nearly this long. Moreover, when I came to this page every statement in the "criticism" section had a rebuttal. That is not a very good sign. If you are going to put the information out there you should allow people to make legitimate criticisms.

In any case, start with a short article that consistently grows with its citations. When you don't do this you wind up with something inconsistent with quality articles of the same topic.

Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 22:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

"Toward an Order of B'nai Or" footnoting
The footnote I added at http://www.rasheit.org/VY_LIBRARY/vylibry.html goes to a library index called Virtual Yeshiva which lists the article as a resource. However, the link is broken. But at least this verifies the article exists. As I recall, it was published in Commentary back in the 1950s or 60s but I don't have a copy of that issue on hand to verify that. Zalman used to hand out photocopies at his workshops, which is where I got it from. The summary on the page is accurate.Rooster613 (talk) 14:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

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