Talk:Jews/Archive 8

Discussion about concentration camps
I haven't been following this article but, as regards Sam's points: Point 2 is correct. Concentration camps were first built to incarcerate, not kill opponents (though many died in them from abuse, malnutrition, disease, overwork, summary execution, etc.) In fact, until November 1938, the vast majority of prisoners in concentration camps were not Jews. It is important to distinguish between concentration and death camps. I am not sure about Sam's objection to statement one. Yes, Holocaust deniers deny that six million Jews were murdered. Sam, please clarify what your objection to the sentence is. Danny 01:24, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually I am disputing "slaughter". Read above. Sam [Spade] 01:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Would "persecution and murder" be better? Danny 02:12, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The first sentence is gone, the second sentence has been clarified. It is now more or less in the form it was before the furor erupted, with some clarifications around concentration camps. Jayjg 04:58, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * This article is obviously a farce considering the truth and NPOV, but basically 'political correct' historical view is what wikipedia stands for and that it truly provides. The Holocaust(R) is a religious (and polical) matter for the Jews, where Spielberg provides the facts in black and white 'documentaries'.


 * Oh yeah, the holocaust never happened. Uh-huh. And those numbers on my grandmothers arm were made up as part of the "Jewish Conspiracy". Take your crud elsewhere--Josiah 10:33, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Of course, if your grandmother had been gassed and cremated, she wouldn't have had a tattoo to show you, right? I hate to break it to you, but the tattoo on the arm of your LIVING grandmother is not particularly persuasive evidence for a holocaust. -- Igor.


 * That's one of the most hateful things I've ever heard said on this website or any other. Jdavidb 20:14, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Hateful? I stated a rational, dispassionate argument against the person's suggestion that a tattoo constitutes evidence of a holocaust. If you feel that a tattoo on his grandmother's arm constitutes proof of a holocaust, then please state your reasons why. Your statement above is a bunch of knee-jerk, sentimental bunk, it's not a rational argument. -- Igor.


 * By the way the zealots forgot to revert the last of my edits, the one that used to claim that "Nuremberg laws were fascist". Of course if it were so, then the very similar laws of modern Israel should be also called "fascist and racist" (e.g. the right to return for an ethnic jew, non-Jews secound class citizens).80.221.0.204 10:06, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * And another ignoramous shows his ignorance.--Josiah 10:33, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The edit seemed reasonable; facism and racism are not particularly tightly linked. Agenda based commentary attempting to link Israel and Nazis ignored. Jayjg 16:22, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simplification
I just want to say that I have always thought this article much to large and rambling. The title is "Jew" which is a title for a dictionary entry for a start. The Title should be Jews. It is fairly simple to define. The openning should be the traditional interpretation of who Jews are, then we should move through time indicateing when new movements arose and how they defined who Jews are. There is room for every POV currently observed in the present atrticle to be presented in unbiased report-style language as if written by a neutral observer. The article can be reduced in length and a lot of "see also" pages linked at the bottom. This time lets not omit ANY group which considers itself Jewish. Lets just make an unbiased report about each movement in chronological order with neutral language. Otherwise, leave it as it was. Zestauferov 11:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Re: "lets not omit ANY group which considers itself Jewish", there are all sorts of groups today who claim to be Jews; for example, a number of Christian groups claim to be Jewish, or "true" Jews, based on their theology that belief in Jesus is what makes someone a true Jew. However, these groups have no historical relationship to the people commonly known as Jews, and who are described in this article. Jayjg 16:26, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Thats the problem, they should be in the article. If you want a section for groups not widely considered to be Jews, but who call themselves Jews, thats fine, but its wrong to exclude them. I would point out that you already discuss people not considered to be Jews by most Jews (reletives of Jews who intermarried) as well as those who insist they are not Jews ("turkic" russian karites). Sam [Spade] 19:14, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The problem is that they shouldn't be in the article; the article discusses a specific people, and possibly (and quite incidentally) others related to them. As for the "turkic" stuff, that's just a POV attempt on the part of some modern converts to Karaism to dissociate themselves from other Karaites. Jayjg 19:52, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Either take an absolute and hard-line traditional stance, or mention ALL groups calling themselves Jews who would otherwise be considered apostate from the traditional perspective. Either way the netzarim issue cannot continue to be suppressed.Zestauferov 15:34, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Messianist Jews

 * This is an article about the people historically known as Jews, not an article about Judaism and the various groups which claim to practice it. Karaites are a group of Jews who have (for many centuries) practiced a faith which differed in some aspects from the faith practiced by the majority of Jews.  Apostate is a religious term for people who have left a religion, so is more relevant in an article about religion.  In that context I note that one cannot be apostate from a religion one was never part of to begin with. Your personal and barely hidden agenda of attempting to promote the legitimacy of the tiny modern religious movement known as "Netzarim" is noted.  Jayjg 16:10, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I didn't claim that not everyone who claims to be Jewish practices legitimate Judaism, but am I mistaken in perceiving that you are saying that not everyone who practices legitimate Judaism is a Jew? There are Ger Toshav, Ger Tzedek and Born Jewish Netzarim. They do not hide their beliefs and they attend legitimate orthodox synagogues and operate under legitimate orthodox rabbis (they do not set up either of their own). If such orthodox rabbis and synagoges do not take it upon their shoulders to complain about them then why should anyone else feel it necessary to write about them in negative terms? They are significant because they are one of the messianist movements within legitimate Judaism.Zestauferov 03:57, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Here we go again:
 * A Ger Toshav is not a Jew but a non-Jew who adheres to the Noahide Laws and gains a special status. As a form of "personal status" in the framework of Jewish law, it is non-existant nowadays.
 * Born Jewish Netzarim are considered apostates by the overwhelming majority of mainsteam Judaism. The fact that they are not being shouted at from pulpits is because they're a tiny fringe organisation (just like the Talmidi Jews who have a WWW presence. Most Orthodox leaders would have not a minute of patience for the Netzarim, however Orthodox these people claim they are. The fact that their "Beth Din" is endorsed by the board (not the rabbi) of one Jewish congregation does not lend legitimacy to this group of people.
 * This discussion has raged between IZAK, Zestauferov and myself on a number of Wikipedia talk pages, and I'm unsure if any progress has been made at all, given the above discussion. JFW | T@lk  07:51, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * You are correct on all points JFW, including the point that no progress has been made at all. For more of the debate, please see Talk:Nazarene Judaism. Jayjg 17:39, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You IZAK & now also Jayig (I hope its not going to effect our friendship). I always have to state this for the record at the openinning of this topic, I am NOT a netzarim nor interested in becomming one, but I am interested in orthodox Judaism and NPOV. Now you say "Born Jewish Netzarim are considered apostates by the overwhelming majority of mainsteam Judaism", but where is your evidence for this, and what does "the overwhelming majority of mainsteam Judaism" literally mean? I am talking specifically about original, i.e. traditional i.e. orthodox, i.e. undeniably legitimate Judaism beyond any shadow of a doubt nor debate. There are Netzarim Jews who (like the Lubavitchers) are messianists and are not considered apostates which is enough reason to mention them as a curiosity especially when considering that the reform Jews are mentioned in the article. Here is my evidence for saying so. The main points are that
 * they do not hide their beliefs,
 * they attend orthodox synagogues openly,
 * and they are proud to submit to the orthodox rabbis.

Now can anyone mention by name and location any such synagogues or rabbis (like the Beit ha-K'nêsêt Môrêshêt Âvôt (Beit K'nesset Moreshet Avot) &#8211; Yad Nâ·âmi in Ra'anana Israel under orthodox rabbi Môri Khaiim (Khaiim Vashdi (Moreh))) which
 * really know about them and about what they believe AND have declared them as apostates,
 * or really know about them and about what they believe AND have put a ban on them,
 * or really know about them and about what they believe AND have asked them to stop attending the synagogues,
 * or really know about them and about what they believe AND have asked them to stop consulting with the rabbis?

I have been looking for one and have not found any. In fact I have only found a deeper understanding of the points of halakha regarding their positions. My continued defense of NPOV on this issue is a a defense and promotion of the status of Halakha and the orthodox system in general. There may even be Netzarim praying in your nearest Neo-Orthodox (Torah im Derech Eretz) synagogue. It benefits us all to consult our local orthodox rabbis on Halakha and come to see the true unity which underpins of our wider community despite its apparent division on the outside. Plurality of opinion has always been the rabbinical system as long as each opinion is firmly grounded in Halakha. The point is that being Jewish is just that -a way of BEING- and not a system of belief which aims to restrict our minds. It really is a culture. It is only the religionists who try to compartmentalise it and keep it locked up in a specific drawer on the shelf marked religion who will argue otherwise. Shalom & Gut Shabbes.Zestauferov 09:42, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Neither this tiny group, nor this discussion, are relevant to this article. Jayjg 17:41, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Now that comment, Jayig, is in desperate need of neutral peer-review. How can a discussion about a very curious group of Jews (or any group which calls themself Jewish for that matter) not be relevant to an article about Jews?Zestauferov 13:25, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * P.S. I have heard from you a few times now that their movement is insignificant in numbers. I was just wondering where you found this out and what evidence you are basing it upon. Or are you just building an argumentum ignorantium?Zestauferov 04:58, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Talk: pages are not supposed to be NPOV. Regarding your other comment, this article cannot possibly address every tiny group claiming to be Jews, much less every sub-division among Jews.  Encylopedia articles are overviews, catching the highlights, not detailed treatises. Jayjg 02:32, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * But a scholastic discussion should strive to discover the NPOV.

There is no way this article can be comprehensive about Jews, although it seems to me that it is important that one can start here and in no more than 3 reasonably obvious hops get to any article about a particular Jewish-related topic. There will obviously be significant groups of Jews not directly mentioned in this article. -- Jmabel 19:55, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed. To be honest, some of these groups don't need a Wikipedia mention at all; it seems these days everyone with a Website and a dozen followers feels the need to create a lengthy Wikipedia article promoting their tiny sect. Jayjg 02:32, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have heard from you a few times now that the movement is insignificant in numbers. I was just wondering where you found this out and what evidence you are basing it upon. Or are you just building an argumentum ignorantium? If Lubavitchers are mentioned then why not Netzarim? I think the point here is that it is just too gutting to be reminded that netzarim are accepted in orthodox synagogues as non-apostates while adherants of certain other sects aren't but no matter how much the truth hurts the fact is that these people are a very interesting curiosity in that they are considered to be real legitimate Jews in the traditional sense of the word while other sects denouncing them as non-Jews are not. This is worthy of comment.Zestauferov 10:35, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * They are insignificant in numbers because they are not known or mentioned anywhere outside their website. Lubavitch has hundreds of centers around the world, synagogues, schools, etc. and tens of thousands (likely over 100,000) followers.  I can't make heads or tails of your next comment "too gutting to be reminded that netzarim are accepted in orthodox synagogues as non-apostates while adherants of certain other sects aren't".  Curiosities are fine for Ripley's Believe It or Not museums, but don't belong in encylopedias attempting to give overviews of the important facts on a topic.  And there are no "other sects denouncing them as non-Jews", in part because no-one has ever heard of them . Jayjg 22:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Zestauferov is clearly demanding that we accept that this extremely tiny, non-Jewish messianic quasi-Christian group is somehow a part of mainstream Orthodox Judaism He even claims that they worship in Orthodox synagogues. Frankly, I've done a lot of reading on both Orthodox Judaism, and on messianic quasi-Christian Judaism, and I have never even heard of this very tiny sect. I doubt there are more than 100 of these people in the world; they certainly do not belong in any article on Judaism, Jews, or Orthodox Judaism. They probably don't even belong in Wikipedia at all. But we can say for certain that Zes's claim that they are Orthodox Jews is totally, absolutely false. RK 17:37, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * Zestauferov has been quite unamenable to negotiation on this issue. I have been reiterating my stance (together with IZAK and recently JayJG) that he's making an awful lot of noise about a group that is apparently in a lot of need for promotion. JFW | T@lk  17:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

From article
Firstly I am glad to see that the necessary changes were made. Since then however some new additions have been made which appear at minimum to be POV. see:


 * the relationship between the different "types" of Jews in Israel flucutuates to both the positive and the negative side.


 * assimilation always brings about the destruction of a peoples

The first is strange and needs better explanation, the second is hopelessly POV. Sam [Spade] 15:28, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I brought in the following portion from the article, for what should be obvious reasons:


 * "If looked at purely in the aspects of the physical world, assimilation always brings about the destruction of a peoples. Accordingly, relating to the spiritual, or Heavenly aspect of Jewish tradition, God showed discontent for the Children of Israel (as a nation) for failing to adhere to the commandments (the Torah).  In religious Jewish thought, the Heavens, or World to Come, and Earth, this World, are connected to and intertwined with each other, so that what happens here affects the Heavenly Realm, and what happens in the Heavens affects this World.  Thus, the exiles, destruction, as well as all aspects of positive national and individual occurences (liberation from slavery in Egypt) are manifestations of the inter-relationship between Heaven and Earth, and ultimately, of God's will.  According to Jewish teaching, the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt when spiritual and physical benevolence occur, culminating in the Messianic Age, or the (first and only) coming of the Messiah, which will usher in an era of peace and human unity under God."

Not sure what can be salvaged, but have at it. Sam [Spade] 15:37, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

attention tag
Why do you keep removing the attention tag? It is legitimate. The page is listed on pages in need of attention, mainly because... it is in need of attention! Do not remove the header until there is consensus to do so and the page is no longer listed on pages in need of attention. Thank you. Sam [Spade] 20:03, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I see. It is in need of attention because it is in need of attention.  Please see Begging the question.  In fact, there is consensus that it is not in need of attention, aside from one user abusing the attention tag. If you have any specific reasons why the page needs attention, well, that's what the Talk: pages are for.  Jayjg 20:09, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, and regarding the Pages needing attention page, there are no current debates (heated or otherwise) in the Jew article about "loaded terminology". Jayjg 20:16, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * If you think this article is in such great shape, and thaty problem has been solved, list it on FAC, or at least remove the listing. I clearly think the page could use an eye or two. Sam [Spade] 00:29, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The only reason this page was listed on the Pages needing attention page today is because you objected to some controversial edits which had been made a day or so earlier by some anonymous editors, and which have since been reverted. In other words, you claimed the page needed attention, as a result it was listed to the Pages needing attention page, and then you claimed that you were adding the attention tag because it was listed on the Pages needing attention page.  Please see Self-fulfilling prophecy.  In any event, the cause of the kerfuffle is now gone, so if you think the page still needs attention, then please state specifically why. Jayjg 01:09, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Ask User:Eequor. I think it needs attention because of the consistant attempts to insert POV or dubious info, and the fact that you yourself have told me that some of the info in the article was "POV attempt on the part of some modern converts to Karaism to dissociate themselves from other Karaites". Also, whats a kerfuffle? Is that like a brouhaha? ;) Sam [Spade] 05:09, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * User:Eequor made the changes to the controversial area, so the problem is solved for that user. People consistently try to insert POV/dubious info into most popular articles, and it is extremely rare for them to have attention tags, so this rationale doesn't hold water.  The small amount of POV stuff in this article is regularly taken care of, as it is in every article.  The "attention" tag is intended for articles which are new, and need a great deal of work, or which are mostly written POV; this article doesn't qualify.
 * kerfuffle
 * Main Entry: kafuffle
 * Function: noun
 * Definition: disorder, commotion; also written curfuffle, kerfuffle, gefuffle
 * Etymology: Gaelic cur 'twist, bend' + fuffle
 * Source: Webster's New Millennium&#8482; Dictionary of English, © 2003 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC

Sam: It was you who placed this article on "Pages needing attention" so it's disingenious to talk about it as if it it's still there and therefore has any meaning when it does NOT. Furthermore,User:Eequor has already edited the section you had problems with at Jew, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jew&diff=5277975&oldid=5275985


 * Even I'm getting confused about the timeline of events now. All I did with the notice was to reword it so as not to misrepresent the discussion here.  Why are y'all arguing about the attention notice, anyway?  --Eequor 16:59, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

User:Eequor took this:


 * Modern persecution of the Jews reached its peak under the Nazis from 1933 to 1945. The Nazis, who thought of themselves as a "Master Race", considered the Jews inferior and subhuman. These racist beliefs and acts were embodied in the Nuremberg Laws specifically designed to discriminate against Jews. After emerging from Germany and capturing most of the European mainland, and in accordance with its Wannsee Conference, Nazi Germany first built concentration camps to incarcerate and kill its opponents and then the extermination camps designed for pure genocide, to kill Jews for the mere "sin" of being born ethnically Jewish. Approximately six million Jews perished under the genocidal policies of the Nazis. Even Jews who had long assimilated and had been baptized into Christianity were not spared. With the defeat of the Axis Powers by the Allied Nations, many high German officials were punished by the Nuremberg Trials and Germany paid reparations to Holocaust survivors and to the State of Israel. To this day, Holocaust deniers continue to deny the extent of the slaughter of Jews

and made it into this:


 * Modern persecution of the Jews reached its peak under the Nazis from 1933 to 1945. The Nazis, who thought of themselves as a "Master Race", considered the Jews inferior and subhuman. These racist beliefs and acts were embodied in the Nuremberg Laws specifically designed to discriminate against Jews. After emerging from Germany and capturing most of the European mainland, and in accordance with its Wannsee Conference, Nazi Germany first built concentration camps to incarcerate and kill its opponents and then extermination camps intended solely for the genocide of all Jews. Approximately six million Jews perished under these policies. With the defeat of the Axis Powers by the Allied Nations, many high German officials were punished by the Nuremberg Trials and Germany paid reparations to Holocaust survivors and to the State of Israel.

And for now, that is where matters stand, seemingly to the satisfaction of everyone INCLUDING you, because you have now evidently chosen to over-look User:Eequor's skillful edits and now pick at other irrelevant out-of-context points in the Jew article, NOT related to your original complaints, which makes one wonder what this "game" is all about..? IZAK 06:58, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * What a bunch of foolishness. I should dispute this talk page as factually innaccurate and POV. Sam [Spade] 16:01, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, thank you. I still think it could use some revision, but I don't know how that ought be done.  --Eequor 16:59, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Hey everytime we post anything we are agreeing to have it edited mercilessly. "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." there is nothing in the wiki policy pages about editing talk pages. Many a time someone has edited one of my headdings to something I did not write or intend. I also have no qualms about editing a comment attributed to me by someone else which I did not say. So I think that editing talk pages has some merit. Otherwise the submit agreement should be changed to make such editing beyond our wiki rights.Zestauferov 13:36, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * As you have been told before, the "edited mercilessly" policy applies to article pages, not to Talk: pages. Headings and comment are not the same thing, and editing of other people's comments in Talk: pages is very strongly frowned on in Wikipedia. Jayjg 02:34, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. What people write in talk pages should be left as they write it.  That's why I left that "Qouted figure" post up there this morning after reverting everything that anon user did in the actual articles.  Revert nonsense in the articles mercilessly, though.  Peace, Antandrus 02:55, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What if one person tries to build up a strawman argument by misquoting you or misrepresents what you have said? Surely you have a right to edit that comment to mean exactly what yu said before addressing it. especially considering that there is a disclaimer we all agree to every time we submit. Anyway this discussion really does not belong here, so if anyone would like to move it to a more appropriate location please feel free.Zestauferov 03:31, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Regardless of how one views the comments of the person one is disputing, one should not edit their Talk: comments. Rather, one should respond to the comments, and point out what one feels are strawman/misquotes etc. and why.  One cannot revise the record to have people say what one thinks they "should have" said; if that were accepted practice, then little would be left in Talk: pages.  The disclaimer itself refers to article pages, not to Talk: pages, as has been explained many times, to little avail.  And if this discussion doesn't belong here, then it shouldn't have been brought up here in the first place. Jayjg 03:40, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Assimilation, hurtful when forced
"Many if not most anti-semitism presents as a key evidence for their claims the lack of Jewish assimilation. The subject of forced assimilation and Marrano Jews is hurtful to many, Jewish and not, in its remembrance."

What is this sentence intending to convery? Jayjg 18:32, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, its two sentences, and they intend to convey at least two things.
 * That the subject of Jews not assimilating is controversial, and has been a focus of anti-Semitism.
 * That the subject of the forced assimilation of Jews is quite an ugly history in the views of most people involved, particularly Jews and Catholics.


 * Also I wanted to have a mention of the Marranos in this section.


 * Sam [Spade] 18:44, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Got it. "Hurtful" is almost always POV.  The material is now in the relevant sections. Jayjg 19:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good recent edits, Jayjg. Cheers, Sam [Spade] 19:27, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

merge?

 * Jew


 * Jew

These two sections need to be condenced or merged, so as not to repeat information. Sam [Spade] 19:12, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Done. Jayjg 20:11, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The definition, revisited
The current def. is completely unacceptable: "Jew is a term used in a wide number of ways, but generally referring to either a follower of Judaism, a child of a Jewish mother, or a member of the Jewish culture or ethnicity". a wide number of ways? a member of the Jewish culture??? &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 05:26, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Humus I agree with your objections, but why the heck do we need Jean-Paul Sartre's "definition" (if it is even that) to tell Jews who they are? IZAK 05:42, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I find it deeper than it seems at first sight and think it is applicable in some cases where other defs miss. Unfortunately, I can't find the exact quote, so I'd appreciate any corrections.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 05:49, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the unique and idiosyncractic definition of one 20th century philosopher (regardless of how prominent) should be given such weight. Jayjg 15:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Humus, could you respond here? I don't think Sartre's idiosyncractic definition should be given such prominence. Jayjg 14:22, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why don't we Just say, that Jew is a way someone who can be considered within the folds of orthodox Judaism may be described, or a self-definition by someone who lays claim to that heritage regardless of the traditional view. This covers both sides of the coin and is very general.Zestauferov 10:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually it's fairly incomprehensible, and in any event doesn't describe the people referred to in this article, which is the group of people historically known as Jews, and not just anyone who today wants to lay claim to that title. Jayjg 15:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

but thats what the reform jews are doing. And it is perfectly comprehensible (except perhaps to you but then we know why and so you are excused) and would naturally lead onto a clarifying paragraph. Perhaps we need peer review on your comment once more.Zestauferov 15:15, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Most Reform Jews do, in fact, still descend from the people who have been historically been referred to as Jews. Ad hominem insinuations, as usual, ignored. Jayjg 15:56, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Here is a review of Ad hominem for you since it seems you have forgotten what it means. Subject 'A' argues poit 'B'. Subject 'C' defames subject 'A' as something bad and subsequently concludes that point 'B' cannot be of any value.Zestauferov 20:15, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Before being allowed to become orthodox, a reform Jew would have to go through a genealogical enquiry to ensure that matrilineal descent was not from a convert to the reform movement but from an orthodox (or as you put it someone historically referred to as a) Jew. I know this from experience. It is scientificaly not possible to say most without reference to the evidence which I am pretty sure is not available to the average wiki editor. Before you attempt to insinuate it about me again I have nothing against the vast majority of Jews in the reform movement (I cannot say reform Jews because the term might be misunderstood) since they are mostly (just like I was one of) many good people in ignorance about the traditions.Zestauferov 21:56, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The inquiry would not be about the denomination the person's female ancestors adhered to (Orthodox etc.), but rather whether or not they were Jews according to the traditional definition. This is a critical point, and other terminology is misleading at best. Jayjg 14:22, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I object to the statement "a person who is of Jewish ethnicity" because it is either a euphemism for a racialist comment or if it is used to mean culturally Jewish, then it is redundant because Judaism is a culture an ENTIRE way of life and not just a faith or religion as some people try to belittle it as.Zestauferov 15:20, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Some Jews view Judaism as a way of life, others as a faith or religion; your POV is interesting, but not accepted by many Jews, and in any event not appropriate for a Wikipedia NPOV definition. Jayjg 15:56, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Didn't someone say a few lines up that comments on talk pages don't have to be NPOV? I wonder who it could have been?Zestauferov 19:50, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * You don't wonder at all, since we both know it was me who said it. And it is correct; you can put all sorts of POV stuff in Talk: pages, but it is not appropriate to put that same POV stuff into the article itself. Jayjg 14:15, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am afraid that you cannot say "Not accepted by many Jews" because the term "Jews" is under debate. According to my POV for example the only Jews who do not accept the definition are those who descend matrilinially from an orthodox maternal ancestor or who have become orthodox Jews once but who for some reason or another both no-longer accept orthodox Judaism. But that is just one of the many POVs on the subject and in fact is the orthodox i.e. traditional view on the subject. Only certain non-orthodox splinter groups attempt to sell Jewishness as being something different from Judaism and attempt to belittle Judaism as nothing more thana "faith" or "religion". Zestauferov 20:15, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, the Orthodox view differs from others. That is why the article presents the POVs of various groups. Jayjg 14:22, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well then if you include the POVs of some groups of apostates (e.g. reform), then why not others (e.g. messianic renewed Judaism)? What is the objective rule of measure being used?Zestauferov 18:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Zes, give it up. Even Orthodox Judaism does not view Reform Judaism as being the same as "messianic Judaism". RK 21:16, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * Correction Orthodox Judaism view both as apostate displacement theology.Zestauferov 06:35, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * In fact, the mainstream Orthodox Rabbinical Council of America worked for five decades with Reform Judaism in the Synagogue Council of America. Even after the SCA became defunct, many Reform and Orthodox rabbis still work together across America and Canada on a local and community basis.  RK 21:16, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * Did I say they didn't?Zestauferov 06:35, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * In stark contrast, neither Reform nor Orthodox Judaism accept any of these quasi-Chrisitan messianic groups as a part of the Jewish community. RK 21:16, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * Did I say they did?Zestauferov 06:35, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * You are unilaterally pushing your own personal views of what you wish Judaism would be: You wish that Orthodox Judaism would accept messianic Jewish quasi-Christian groups as a form of Judaism...but in the real world they do not. Neither does any form of Reform or Conservative Judaism. RK 21:16, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * You have come to your own assumption about what my own peresonal view is and the result is that you appear to be arguing with an imaginary opponent. I did not say and do not believe anything of the sort. once and fopr the records in capital letters and bold writing so that everyone can see this is my own personal view which I am suppressing while trying to promote NPOV.


 * ANYTHING EXCEPT ORTHODOX JUDAISM IS APOSTASY. ANY HALAKHICLY LEGAL JEWS SHOULD COME OUT OF APOSTASY AND MAKE TESHUVAH BACK TO ORTHODOXY. ALL HALAKHIKLY NON-LEGAL JEWS SHOULD STOP DECEIVING THEMSELVES BY BELIEVING THAT THEY ARE JEWS.


 * Zes, his is a very funny joke. Except for "Jews for Jesus" and their kind, what kind of person thinks that Orthodox Judaism is comptaible with believing that Jesus is the messiah? For a while I was taking you seriously, but now it is clear that you are here for comic relief! Thanks for the laugh! RK 12:05, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Zes, for making it clear that I should not take seriously your comments on the question of who is and is not a Jew. Up until now, I'd considered the possibility that you knew more about the subject than I did. -- Jmabel 18:56, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * There is nothing individual about this opinion it is shared by very very many orthodox Jews and will be admitted by any orthodox rabbi if pinned down on the issue. As you will see from my posts I have not been unilaterally pushing my own personal vies of what I wish Judaism would be anywhere. If anyone starts telling me and other people what I believe and think again without confirming from me first I will paste that big bold notice anywhere appropriate.


 * Again, thanks for the laugh. (For those not in on the joke, absolutely no Orthodox rabbis share Zes's supposed "view". None. Zero. Zip.) RK


 * As for messiah I side with the conservatives, but my opinion does not matter because I am not necessarily a Halakhic Legal Jew, though the orthodox rabbi I went to to make teshuvah before I discovered this told me that there are some who support that view thus it is not exactly outside of Halakha.


 * Now that you have extracted my beliefs from me can we get back to the issue in question which is to have NPOV description of WHO IS A JEWZestauferov 06:35, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Reform movement is huge, important international Jewish religious movement, with a couple of million members, hundreds of synagogues, day schools, seminaries, etc.; its voice needs to be heard, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. However, if my next door neighbour happens to be a Jew, and also happens to believe that Asherah worship is compatible with Judaism, or that a Jew is anyone whose mother was a Jew or who has red hair, well, his views don't need to be reported here. Jayjg 03:11, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Peoplehood and matrilinealism
I want to clarify a comment I made in an edit connecting "peoplehood" and "racialism." I didn't mean that a sense of peoplehood was racist; I mean that connecting a sense of peoplehood specifically with the mother only borders on doubtful racial concepts. -- Cecropia | Talk 17:37, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The language itself in this section (formerly two sections) was completely convoluted and difficult to understand, and spent way too much time saying what things were not, rather than what they were. Over the past few days I've made a number of attempts to clean it up, and I think it's now at the point where it is generally comprehensible, if perhaps still a bit over-wordy.  Jayjg 18:20, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Basing it on the mother only has only cultural traditions implied, while taking it that having some "Blood" from either side is counted enough to make one Jewish certainly is racialism. The point is that ethnicity used to be a word used for culture but has come to be a euphemism for race a word which genetic science has proved is not suitable for any sub-population of the one human race.Zestauferov 19:53, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The proscription is apparently religious, not cultural. Still in all, the plain meaning would be that you're sure who the mother is, making it an issue of blood. The question is whether this is still appropriate in the modern context. -- Cecropia | Talk 00:26, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Whether or not this is "appropriate" is not particularly relevant. In the traditional view it is based on the mother, so that is what needs to be reported. Jayjg 14:18, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * But we may ask if the "traditional" view is Biblically-based, or came in to being to meet the needs of a time. Is the tradition based on law, or interpretation of law, or on then-exigent conditions? Times change. To believe many writers, Judaism is in a crisis of assimilation. If it could be proven to everyone's satisfaction that a Jew is the natural father of a child, is it better to deny that child's Jewishness at a time when so many are complaining that the Jewish faith is endangered by diminishing numbers? But what we were discussing here was the use of the term "peoplehood," which is not exactly the same as religious acceptance. Since that word is striken (I think), the point is moot in terms of the article. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:34, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Regarding your first question, some argue the traditional view dates back 2,000 years, others over 3,000 years; the article reflects this, though, strictly speaking, it should probably only reflect the latter view in the "Traditional Views" section. Regarding your other comments, they assume that a) matrilineal descent is a response to concern that the father might not be a Jew, and b) that the child of a Jewish father has a "Jewishness" which can be "denied"; both of these assumptions are speculative at best.  In any event, while your suggestions for ways of "saving" Judaism have been proposed by others (particularly the Reform movement), I don't see how they are relevant to the Traditional view of "who is a Jew", or what constitutes the Jewish people. Jayjg 04:20, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Regarding your other comments, they assume that a) matrilineal descent is a response to concern that the father might not be a Jew -- Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but the fear would be that the father of a child of a non-Jewish mother might also be non-Jewish, thereby imparting "Jewishness" on the child of non-Jews. Conversely, if the mother is Jewish, you are certain of at least half Jewish parentage. What do you think the purpose of a matrilineal descent is? Cecropia | Talk 23:35, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your first statement, but I don't see why matrilineal descent has to have a "purpose". It simply is the traditional practice. Jayjg 03:59, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * b) that the child of a Jewish father has a "Jewishness" which can be "denied"; both of these assumptions are speculative at best. Well, what is Jewishness? I believe the Jewish bible and law to be practical documents, not as mystical as some religions. What makes the child of a Jewish mother inherently Jewish and the child of a Jewish father inherently not? Cecropia | Talk 23:35, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The Talmud finds strong support for matrilineal descent in the Jewish Bible. As far as Jewishness goes, one could argue that the whole concept is unproven.  However, that wouldn't be a relevant argument, since all we really need to do is report the traditional view (at least in the section in question), which is that there is such a thing, and that it passes from the mother only. Jayjg 03:59, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * your suggestions for ways of "saving" Judaism -- I don't think I used the term "saving" Judaism, but some would say that. But if the issue is "saving" is there any general agreement on what precisely that means? Is it religious practice (like Lubavitchers who want even non-religious Jews to follow practices)? Is it continuity? It is numbers? Is it culture? Or is there something else? -- Cecropia | Talk 23:35, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Orthodox Jews do not believe that the Jewish people are in any danger of disapppearing, but they do believe that non-Orthodox Jews are losing Jewish identity and their descendants will be lost to the Jewish people. What is that identity?  A complex mix of practices, attitudes, shared values, shared history, shared religion, shared scriptures, etc. Jayjg 03:59, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually I'm finding some interesting material on Jewish matrilinealism. It's worthy of mention in an encyclopedia article, since it runs counter to most cultures. Apparently Judaism was patrilineal until the 2nd Century CE. My most intresting and scholarly source so far is this PDF.


 * This is a controversial position, even among non-Orthodox historians. There is also evidence that patrilineality stopped being used centuries before the common era, at least 400 years before the time you mention. RK 02:02, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * 200 CE or 200 BCE, if the practice changed, there was a reason--i.e., that leaves at least 1200 years of Jewish history in which succession was patrilineal. The reporting of this is historically if not religiously important. -- Cecropia | Talk 02:59, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Theories abound, and there is a great deal of controversy still about whether or not it was ever anything but matrilineal. Regardless, a discussion of about whether or not Jews accepted something other than matrilineal descent at some time in their ancient history belongs in an article on the topic, not in the section discussing the traditional definition of a Jew, which has held for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg1 17:35, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Return of the Prodigal
From the article:


 * Generally, Jews who have been raised as non-Jews would be expected to make some sort of public sign that they are returning to Judaism, for instance engaging in a course in Jewish Torah education, joining a synagogue, observing the Jewish Sabbath and festivals, keeping kosher, having an adult bar mitzvah ceremony, and a variety of other observances. If not circumcised, males are required to have a brit milah (ritual circumcision).

Do we have any reference or statistic for that? What does raised "non-Jewish" mean? Raised in another religion? raised as an atheist? raised as culturally Jewish without religious education? And who would "expect" "some sort of public sign"? A synagogue? The secular Jewish community? A prospective Yiddishe mother-in-law? How much of a "public sign"? There are an awfully lot of people accepted as Jews who don't know a word of Torah, attend shul, observe Shabbos but do eat traif. Would a Jewish returnee showing up at Temple be expected to make some kind of representation before being allowed in the door? -- Cecropia | Talk 19:15, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's a paragraph I'm still wrestling with. I haven't really liked it since I first noticed it, and I've already cut it down a little, but it still seems over-wordy.  Raised "non-Jewish" I think in this context means "raised in another faith" or "raised without the knowledge one is a Jew".  All those various things these people are asked to do aren't really documented anywhere, and are certainly not formalized.  OTOH, some returning "apostates" are definitely asked to go to a mikvah, even if they don't have to formally convert.  I'm going to try to figure out who originally wrote the paragaph, that may help. Jayjg 19:38, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, the material was inserted on Dec 24, 2003. I understand better why it was placed there; I'm going to try another re-write attempt. Jayjg 19:56, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Orthodox view
I would like to keep a clear distinction between orthodox and non-orthodox views instead of this farce of tying to present a non-existant wholistic view.

For example Jayig does not understand the orthodox system and always tries to present it as in harmony with reform where the two in reality are as different as Christianity is from orthodox Judaism. e.g. he changed this
 * All Jewish denominations welcome the return of any Jews who have left (or who have been raised in a faith other than) Judaism. This return is called Teshuvah and such Jews would be expected to make some sort of public sign that they are returning to Judaism, for instance engaging in a course in Jewish Torah education, joining a synagogue, observing the Jewish Sabbath and festivals, keeping kosher, having an adult bar mitzvah ceremony, and a variety of other observances. However if these individuals do not posess documented matrilineal descended from an orthodox Jew, they would require a formal conversion to adopt Judaism. Males would be required to have either a full brit milah (ritual circumcision, or a symbolic one if already circumcised but raised as a non-orthodox Jew.

into this
 * All Jewish denominations welcome the return of any Jews who have left (or who have been raised in a faith other than) Judaism, and these individuals would not require a formal conversion, though they would be expected to abandon their previous beliefs and adopt Judaism. Males would be required to have either a full brit milah (ritual circumcision), or a symbolic one (if already circumcised).

Zestauferov 16:47, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I am not trying to harmonize different views; rather, the fact is that Orthodoxy does not require conversion of non-Orthodox Jews, nor does it insist that the ancestors of Jews believe in or practice Orthodoxy in order to be accepted as Jews. Rather, as the movement has made clear in a number of public statements, it considers Reform, Conservative, apostate, raised Christian, etc. Jews to be Jews (though it affords no legitimacy to the movements), so long as their female ancestors meet the traditional definition of a Jew, as outlined in the Talmud. It does not demand any specific observances in order to be considered a Jew. Jayjg 17:49, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * As for the statement regarding "documented matrilineal descent", this is already implicit from the previous paragraph, and the fact that the current paragraph is talking about Jews. Jayjg 18:01, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You miss thew point. It is possible that a Reform Jew may eb descended from a great grandmother who converted to Reform Judaism in which case her matrilineal descendants would not be considered Jewish at all by orthodoxy. Hence these days it is not uncommon for Reform Jews to have to proove the validity of their matrilineal descent if making teshuvah to orthodoxy. If it is discovered that their matrilineal Jewish ancestor was a convert into a movementother than orthodoxy, then such a "Jew" would be required to convert to orthodoxy. That is what my paragraph attempts to illustrate and that is what your paragraph hides. And you should not have tried to portrtay me as so gobsmackingly ignorant as to be claiming that non-orthodox Jews with a solid matrilineal descent need to convert especially when I wrote about teshuvah in the paragraph and have shown you up with my knowledge of orthodox systems several times on various talk pages. That is called a straw-man when you build an argument and knock it down pretending that you have knocked your opponent down while the opponent is in fact still standing. It only works on ignorant readers and makes the strawman builder look a fool to those who can see exactly what is being done.Zestauferov 16:53, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * While it is possible that a Reform Jew may be "descended from a great grandmother who converted to Reform Judaism", it is not likely, as conversion in all movements were rare until the late 20th century. However, in the rare case that this occurred, the individual would indeed have to convert to be accepted as a Jew by Orthodox Judaism.  More to the point, descendants of Jewish apostates to another faith (almost invariably Christianity) who now wish to be accepted as Jews by Orthodox Judaism do not need to prove that they are descended from Orthodox Jews, but merely that they are descended from Jews. Jayjg 17:30, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Finally you understand.Zestauferov 17:57, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, I understand, which is why I put my version of the text in, as opposed to yours, which said the opposite. Jayjg 18:11, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Mine does not say the opposite and yours does not make clear what is clear here in this discussion. Zestauferov 18:29, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Your version says they require documented descent from an "orthodox Jew". You have since agreed that they do not, but merely that they are descended from Jews.  See your comment of 17:57, 25 Aug 2004 directly above.  As for the rest, contrary to your paragraph, they do not need to make any sort of public "sign" to be considered to be Jews; in fact, as the article makes clear, even if they continue to practice another faith, they will still be considered Jews. Jayjg 19:13, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Straw man argument, Wishful thinking, and Argumentum ad nauseam ignored. Jayjg 17:30, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WhateverZestauferov 17:57, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Zestauferov writes "For example Jayig does not understand the orthodox system and always tries to present it as in harmony with reform where the two in reality are as different as Christianity is from orthodox Judaism."


 * I totally disagree. Jayjg isn't doing anything of the sort, and none of the other contributors to the article are doing anything like this either. RK 21:29, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks, RK. Zestauferov believes I am an Reform Jew, and therefore views all of my edits as an attempt to promote Reform Judaism against Orthodox Judaism.  In the past he regularly insisted that I was a Reform Jew, and that my arguments were therefore invalid, until I protested that this was Ad hominem and Poisoning the well.  Since then he no longer states this outright, but continues to make not-so veiled references to this belief, such as "but thats what the reform jews are doing. And it is perfectly comprehensible (except perhaps to you but then we know why and so you are excused)..." and "the point here is that it is just too gutting to be reminded that netzarim are accepted in orthodox synagogues as non-apostates while adherants of certain other sects aren't but no matter how much the truth hurts..."  It is interesting to note that in the same week you accused me of being "Ultra-Orthodox", Zestauferov accused me of being "Reform", and a third Wiki editor accused me of being "atheist"; I take this as proof positive that I am indeed adhering to the NPOV policy. Jayjg 22:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion over the wording of a recently edited section. Neither Orthodox or Conservative Judaism require apostates to "convert" to Judaism. When apostates are practicing a non-Jewish faith (e.g. Christianity) they are still halakhically considered Jews, yet they are not practicing the religion of Judaism. Jewish person, yes, Judaism adherent, no. The question here is what happens when such a person wants to leave the faith that they are currently practicing, and return to practicing Judaism? I know for certain that the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, in Conservative Judaism does mandates that the returning Jew make some sort of public sign that they are now returning to Judaism. This may include immersion in a mikveh, taking part in Jewish education classes and reading Torah at services, or some other significant act. However, this is not a conversion; the person in question is Jew the entire time. If I understand correctly, the same is unofficially true in Orthodox Judaism. People who return to Orthodox Judaism usually are often observant than the average returnee in the Conservative Jewish community, and so engage in many public signs of adherence to Judaism as religion anyways! (Becoming a regular worshipper at an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and keeping Shabbat is a major public sign of adherence to Judaism!) RK 21:29, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * Exactly. The standards for being accepted as a member in good faith of a certain denomination (e.g. Orthodox Judaism) are not the same as the standards for being accepted as a Jew. Jayjg 22:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Don't we all know all this? In orthodox system it is called Teshuvah not conversion. The point I am trying to highlight is that sometimes people accepted as matrilineally Jewish in a non-orthodox denomination might not actually pass the acid test withing orthodox Judaism (which is I understand increasingly checking up on matrilineal descent of non-orthodox Jews making Teshuvah) and in such cases these people must go through full conversion. Zestauferov 16:21, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The current wording actually clearly explains this (the Orthodox position), while your insertions confuse the traditional definition of a Ba'al Teshuva with the traditional definition of a Jew. I understand from your other comments why the point you keep trying to make is a highly relevant for you, but your focus on this is just making the article confusing, and the wording you would like to insert is inaccurate. Jayjg1 19:34, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Seesaw
This whole article will never be finished because it is a constant see-saw between traditional (i.e. orthodox) and revisionist ideas in all shapes and forms. We need a neutral presentation of both sides of the coin under clear sub-headdings and neither should cross over onto the otrher's territory. The problems are arising because the discussion attempts to paint a picture of one Jewish people which is unrealistic.Zestauferov 20:44, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Jfdwolf would you like to give a reason why you reverted my edit? Do you claim that Judaism is nothing more than a religion?Zestauferov 23:25, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yep. To claim (right at the top of the article) that Judaism is a "way of life" is trivialising. For the vast majority of readers, Judaism is to be classified as a religion, even though I (and you) might not agree. The distinction ought to be made in Judaism, and not in Jew. JFW | T@lk  23:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

IC though the phrase as it stood does seem to promote one POV over another.Zestauferov 00:00, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

5 Jews
> 6 opinions ==

With all due respect, folks, for some time we have been arguing over trivial differences here and doing little to appreciably improve the article. Most of the edits have amounted to gonig back and forth over the same ground. There is probably plenty that could be done with this article, but this isn't it. Also, there are certainly all sorts of Jewish-related topics that could use some serious work.

May I suggest that rather than argue repeatedly over the same matters, that each of the people who is significantly involved in this article would do well to indicate here on the talk page what they would see as up to three areas where the article could be strengthened, either through broader (or narrower!) coverage, improved citations, parts they really thing need a serious rewrite, etc. and we can see if we can get consensus on pursuing some of these rather than playing tug-of-war? -- Jmabel 00:58, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

I think the whole article needs shortening for a start. and I would like to keep a clear distinction between orthodox and non-orthodox views instead of this farce of tying to present a non-existant wholistic view.Zestauferov 16:47, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This really wasn't an invitation to resume the same arguments in a new section. I was serious about my request for areas that could be strengthened. -- Jmabel 02:19, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've been working hard at that, Jmabel. Jayjg 04:22, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, for that as you can see I have moved the discussion under another headding.Zestauferov 16:53, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A threat?
I just received this message from a user here: "Stop trolling on Jew. Your agenda is obvious. This is also your first and final warning. JFW | T@lk  17:14, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)." Sounds an awful lot like a threat, doesn't it? Unsigned by Igor, User:149.99.133.209

who is it from?Zestauferov 17:23, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It's from me. Adding the inflammatory link from the National Vanguard is trolling, and will lead to banning. Yes, this was a legitimate threat. JFW | T@lk  17:26, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Also from you:"Your response on Talk:Jew is noted. I have every right to issue this "threat" if you insert links to the National Vanguard that have little to do with Jew/Judaism and more with Google (and perhaps Wikipedia), and are clearly intended as trolling. JFW | T@lk 17:33, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)". The National Vanguard article is relevant to this page on many levels, most notably in that it specifically mentions this - Wikipedia's - "Jew" article, and explains how this article came be ranked as Google's #1 search result for the search term "Jew". According to the article, it came to be ranked as #1 through the UNETHICAL practice of 'linkbombing' Google in a campaign organized by Jewish lobby groups and Jewish individuals. Jewish censorship on the internet (and elsewhere) is certainly relevant to the "Jew" topic and should be discussed in the article. The fact that you - JFW | User_talk:Jfdwolff - have attempted to block me from Wikipedia is a BLATANT example of Jewish censorship of the internet. -- Igor.


 * To more fully explain, the anonymous person is pushing Nazi propaganda, Holocaust denial, and is linking this article to Nazi websites. What could constitute a greater case for banning? RK 17:43, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you're resorting to Ad hominem attacks and censorship because you're unable to refute the charges made in the National Vanguard article? -- Igor.


 * Hi, I'm a Gentile. We do not worry about refuting charges here on Wikipedia.  Our purpose is not to determine the truth or falsehood of charges, only to report appropriate information in the proper context.  We report what various groups believe and allow readers to determine truth for themselves.
 * This is not a case of Jewish censorship. I'm a Gentile, and I'll cut out Nazi junk from Wikipedia, too.
 * It's not even a case of censorship. It's a case of removing something that does not belong in a particular encyclopedia article.  This is what makes WIkipedia a source of unbiased information for all.
 * For more information, please read about the NPOV policy. Jdavidb 18:34, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The article in question - which I don't believe you've made any effort to read before classifying it as 'Nazi junk' - most certainly IS relevant to the article, and the attempts by certain individuals to ban me from Wikipedia for posting a link to this article most certainly ARE censorship. -- Igor.


 * I can't read it. My employer's internet system blocks the article as being hate speech.  Sounds like Nazi propaganda to me.


 * You "can't read it", and yet it "sounds like Nazi propaganda" to you. I'd say it is YOU who are having a problem with NPOV, not I. -- Igor.


 * You will not be allowed to use Wikipedia to promote this stuff. There are plenty of Gentiles AND Jews who will prevent it. Jdavidb 20:16, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, you're not being censored. If you were, the right to download Mediawiki and make your own website saying whatever you want would have been taken away.  Why don't you go do just that and leave the rest of us alone? Jdavidb 20:18, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Because Wikipedia does not belong to you or to the little Jewish gang that tries to control this page? -- Igor.


 * Dude, wake up. It's hate speech. Jdavidb 20:56, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Dude, read the article or zip it. Oops, you can't read it - someone's censoring your internet access! (Gee, I wonder who would do that?). So on second thought, just zip it. -- Igor.


 * The link is not relevant to the topic of this article. You could try linking it to articles on Google rankings; that might be more appropriate. Jayjg 21:23, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * You don't know if it's relevant or not since you haven't even read it. You are clearly very biased and are unable to maintain NPOV on this matter. You are simply arguing for argument's sake at this point. -- Igor.


 * Why on earth would you assume I haven't read it? Regardless, the link is not relevant to the topic of this article. You could try linking it to articles on Google rankings; that might be more appropriate.Jayjg 23:02, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I didn't assume anything. You state above: "I can't read it. My employer's internet system blocks the article as being hate speech." You're being very disingenuous, you know. -- Igor.


 * That was me, not him. Try to pay attention.
 * Also, care to respond to my suggestion that you download the freely provided Mediawiki and make your own website and leave us alone? Jdavidb 01:14, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I read the link once you remove all the unsuported antisemtic nosense what is left is already covered in this articleGeni 22:07, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Page protected due to edit war
I've protected this page as of 17:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC) due to an edit war. BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 17:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Thank you Brian. It was more vandalism than a proper edit war (unless you count my months-spanning disagreement with User:Zestauferov whether the fringe organisation Netzarim is a legitimate form of Orthodox Judaism).
 * The problems at the moment are relatively minor, and AFAIAC (as far as I'm concerned) protection can be removed in a day or two. JFW | T@lk  17:43, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll check back in a couple of days. Thanks, BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 21:06, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * This is fascinating - why did you just remove the link I had placed below to the controversial National Vanguard article? Why are you editing my messages without saying so? An impartial observer might be tempted to believe that some people here don't want the National Vanguard article to be seen by anyone. Oh well. Here's a link to the article again: REMOVED BY JDAVIDB BECAUSE YOU'RE VANDALIZING WIKIPEDIA. It only seems fair that people get to read it, since it's what JFW tried to ban me from Wikipedia for posting. -- Igor.


 * Go make your own website and post it there.
 * And don't call this "Jewish censorship" -- I'm a Gentile. Jdavidb 01:14, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I am not a vandal, or a troll, and you Jfdwolff, are a shameless liar and a censor (the article in question is NOT an "anti-Google" article, as you mendaciously claim). I can think of no better first-hand example of Jewish censorship on the internet than what has just transpired here. I propose that a category in the external links section be called "Jews and Censorship" and that the controversial link be placed there. Wikipedia is meant to be an unbiased educational resource for all, not a showcase for Zionist propaganda. -- Igor.


 * "Zionist" propaganda? The Google rankings for the article Jew have nothing to do with Zionism, though this is an interesting demonstration of the way anti-Semites use "Zionist" and "Jew" interchangeably.  Thanks, it will come handy in a discussion I've had on another Talk: page. Jayjg 21:26, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * So why is there a link to ZOA (Zionist Organization of America), among others, at the bottom of the article? Those links lead to Zionist propaganda. -- Igor.


 * There are over 30 links at the bottom of this article, to various Jewish organizations, secular and religious movements, etc. One is to the Zionist Organization of America; I hardly see how it makes Wikipedia a "showcase for Zionist propaganda".  Wikipedia also has links to CODOH, IHR, Zundelsite, etc.  Does that make Wikipedia a "showcase for Holocaust Denial propaganda"? Jayjg 23:06, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * You claimed that there was nothing having to do with Zionism in the article "Jew". I proved you wrong. I did not say that I considered Wikipedia, in its totality, to be a showcase for Zionist propaganda - I said that Wikipedia is not *meant to be* a showcase for Zionist propaganda (i.e. I do not want to see Wikipedia turn into a forum where a tiny clique of Zionist Jews and their uncritical supporters have ultimate editorial control over every article they feel pertains to the image of their ethnic/political group). You would do well to stop skewing my words, seeing as your lies are so easy to refute. Now if, by your own logic, linking to revisionist websites like the IHR doesn't turn Wikipedia into a spotlight for holocaust revisionist "propaganda", then why this nearly fanatical opposition to having ONE SINGLE LINK among 30 to an article which directly discusses the page in question, as well as numerous sociological/political issues pertaining to the ethnic group under discussion? Why is a link to a Zionist organization acceptable for the article "Jew", but not a link to an organization which is critical of Jewish/Zionist influence in Western society? It's obvious why - the little gang of Jews writing this article will only allow information which paints Jews *favorably* to appear in the article. They will fight tooth & nail to prevent any information unflattering to Jews - regardless of whether it's true or not - from surfacing in the article. Is that NPOV? No, it's not, and you're preaching a hypocritical double-standard. -- Igor.


 * On the contrary, I made no claim that there was nothing having to do with Zionism in the article "Jew"; I challenge you to find the statement. Rather, I pointed out that your insinuation that the Jew article was a showcase for Zionist propaganda was false.  Your various statements about a "tiny clique of Zionist Jews and their uncritical supporters" trying to "control" things is a classic anti-Semitic Conspiracy theory first advanced in the Tsarist forgerty The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  The link itself is about the Jew watch website and Google rankings, so irrelevant to the topic at hand (which is Jews), but it has been added to a more relevant article, Jew watch. Your various Ad hominem arguments, false statements, and Red herrings are noted with amusement. Jayjg 16:44, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I, Jfdwolff, am not a shameless liar or censor, but I'll proudly bear your small-minded insults. You are the one with the hypocritical double standard, or shall we call it cognitive dissonance? You are being "censored" because the article defends the notorious hate-peddler Jew Watch, which was ranked highly due to Google bombing and seems to be a repository of everything mindless that has even been written about Jews. Wikipedia will suppress links to hateful sites - they are not encyclopedic because they do not rationally examine information (but peddle scary stories about Jews slaughtering Christian babies and baking their blood into their matzos instead). If you don't get this, you should rightly be denied the right to edit Wikipedia articles. JFW | T@lk  17:00, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Locked from editing. It seems that rather then there being unbiased editorial of Wikipedia, its been hijacked once again by insidious 'jewish interests'.. much like every other media source on this planet. User:62.252.0.5


 * No, "every media source on the planet" does not represent your views because they are so untrue and so reprehensible that "everybody" sees right through them. But I won't try to change your mind - your racist beliefs have skewed your ability to appraise information and draw a conclusion that is in alignment with reality. JFW | T@lk  09:33, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That Jewish persons control most of the Hollywood, newspapers, television channels, book publishing etc. in the United States of America is a statistical fact, and the only thing one can argue (fallaciously) is that the owners being Jewish doesn't in anyway add pro-Jewish interests influence to these medias. The Internet is truly beginning to be the last forum, on which self-aware non-Jews can express their opinions on, and discuss, the Jews without being persecuted by their respective Western world governments. Of course Jewish interests know this very well and organizations like ADL are openly pushing for Internet censorship. Did I say censorship? I meant "providing effective hate crime prevention and intervention strategies" (ADL). Like already an invidual on this talk page proved ("I can't read it. My employer's internet system blocks the article as being hate speech." - Jdavidb), this basically means proxies, which filter webpages Jewish groups don't want people to see.

Hate? If any group on this planet is notorious for hating other people's customs (Jews are always happy to tell about how their ways are better than anyone else's), traditions (worldwide MTV culture), messiahs (Jesus), self-pride, right to a homeland (Palestinians) and finally right to exist (White Europeans as a race are dying), then it must be the Talmud followers.

Let the personal attacks begin. 141.76.1.122 19:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't give you the gratification. -- Jmabel 20:47, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * I can't type and yawn at the same time. --Zero 01:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)