Talk:Jicaquean languages

Language name
This page needs to be renamed, Jicaque is what other people called them; Tol is the word they call themselves. 169.229.201.153 02:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not wikipedia policy to use endonyms instead of exonyms unless the endonym has become the standard term. In this cas it isn't the case linguists seem to distinguish between two languages, one called Tol and another called Jicaque.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  07:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So, when two professional disciplines use different terms, how do you determine which to use? Anthropology uses Tol.  Linguistics uses Jicaque primarily because the literature was developed in the 60s and 70s when that was still the common term. Can you point me to the linguistic literature that treats Tol and Jicaque as separate languages?  Thanks. Rsheptak 17:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Campbell does that. Calling Jicaque of La montaña del Flor for Tol and Jicaque del Palmar for Jicaque. Anyway this article is about the language not the people. If you can show me references that state that Tol is the preferred usage in Honduras then I think we can safely move the page to "Tol Language" ·Maunus· tlahtōlli  08:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that the federation of "Tol" tribes is called "FeTriXY" "Federation de tribus Xicaques de Yoro" that suggest that they also use the name Jicaque about themselves.   This makes me think that Jixaque/Xicaque is indeed in more widespread usage, which is why I named the page Jicaque to begin with. It also seems that the endonym of the people is Tolupan·Maunus·  tlahtōlli  09:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * To some extent 'jicaque' is widespread and has a long time depth, but is not a specific reference in colonial literature to these people. I see 'jicaque' frequently in Spanish colonial documents, even from the 16th century. Unfortunately it doesn't always refer to these people.  I have "indios jicaques de Campeche", "indios jicaques mosquitos" and so forth and this term used earlier than the spanish entradas into their territory.   The people being refered to are not 'jicaques' in the sense of being speakers of this language or from the territory they occupy.  It means something like "wild uncivilized indian" in its context.  I suspect it may be a word the Spanish are generalizing from some other language. Rsheptak 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * from http://www.honduraseducacional.com/Etnias.htm. "Durante el siglo XVI, el término Jicaque (a veces escrito Xicaque o Hicaque) parece haber sido utilizado por los mexicanos para designar a los habitantes originales no-mexicanos de Honduras, luego fue aplicado más ampliamente a cualquier grupo no-converso u hostil de la zona hacia el sur, hasta Nicaragua y Costa Rica. A pesar de la confusión en el uso de los términos Xicaque y Jicaque, Greenberg y Swadesh han identificado el Jicaque como una lengua distinta perteneciente al tronco lingüístico Hokan-Sioux. El término Jicaque o Xicaque, como en la actualidad se determina este grupo, tiene también denominaciones como la de "tol", tolupán, torrupán. Actualmente en Honduras se usa el termino tolupán, para definir a este grupo étnico."Rsheptak 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I propose then that we have two articles one called Jicaque language and another called Tolupan people.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  09:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Rsheptak 18:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Maunus, or anybody. How problematic is it that Campbell's El Palmar word list came from an area otherwise not known to contain Jicaque speakers of any kind historically. What do we know about how they got to El Palmar, and when? My impression is that Membreño doesn't provide that information. Rsheptak 23:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)